TMD:

"Sorry - That's not flying. If she told you what was wrong, you had enough information to adjust your behavior."

Bull feathers.

"You chose not to adjust."

Looking back, I would argue that I tried 2 "adjust" just as much as she tried 2 be honest with me. But adjust 2 what? I honestly didn't know what was wrong. When her A resumed the last time, I believed our M was pretty good. What could I adjust 2?

"The fact that she loves you is the important piece of this. If that love is returned, then the bank is full and there is no room in her heart for the OM and as such, the OM is a non-issue. Why? Because he never became the OM to begin with! "

Again, looking back, I'm pretty sure that things had 2 play out the way that they did. I would have resisted this conclusion kicking and screaming up until just a few weeks ago, but that's what I believe now. And it was when I changed my thinking in this area that major progress started.

Again, this could be you, if you want it.

-2long

TMD:

"Well.. who want's to be alone. Really. "

Ah!! I DO!!!

Think about it. Being emotionally healthy means not feeling "lost" or "incomplete" when you're alone.

Being alone is not the same thing as being lonely, if you're emotionally whole.

-2long

Pep:

"PS ... 2Long and I have shoes older than you!"

Just the wingtips! My Converse hightops wear out 2 fast!

...but, boy do I wish I could get another pair of those metallic checkered ones I had about 20 years ago!

-2long

TMD:

"I did tell My W prior to the marriage that I would always have a special place for the OW in my heart. Was that lieing by selective ommission? My wife thinks so and so do you."

My W had told me she was feeling attracted 2 someone else before the A started. And yes, this is lying by selective omission. Just like I said before about being told there was a problem, but not being told what it was.

"No suprise there."

Perhaps not surprising, but please don't misunderstand my meaning here. We're human. It could have been me if circumstances had been different. No good is accomplished by vilifying ANYBODY on either side of an A.

"the reality is that that is in the past. What good to harp on it now?"

You are absolutely right. And there is no good dwelling on past mistakes, just as there is no good accomplished by worrying about the fu2re. We have only ourselves, right now, 2 work with.

"so what now 2Long? "

Literallly, whatever you want. Misery or joy included.

"are you still married?"

Yes.

"does your W still love him? are you sure?"

They never told each other that they loved each other, though my W says even now that she'll always "care very much for him." Yes, I'm sure.

"are you happy?"

When I realize that I am the source of my own happiness, yes. I enjoy being with my W, but only when she can find happiness in herself. Value in ourselves. Growth 2gether.

"is your W happy? are you sure?"

I am sure that she is happier this week than she was just a month ago. In fact, if you look up "Still Trying To Save It's" thread on resentment, I posted something about radical forgiveness that almost spontaneously woke me up 2 the extent that EVERYTHING I felt, and all of our interactions from that point on, changed, hopefully forever.It's been a wonderful 2ple of weeks, and you wouldn't believe what we've been through over the past 2ple of years! Ask Pep.

"Is the OM alone?"

Yes. When his W found out about the A, she tossed him out and had a "revenge A" of her own. They're currently going through a bitter DV, and fighting for custody of their 2 sons. Very sad, because I KNOW their si2ation isn't hopeless, but it's their decision. They have 2 learn their own lessons in life.

"God brought you to this thread. I'm convinced of it. Lets find out what his intention is!"

Okay!

-ol' 2long

hhhmmmmm.......the brain the brain the brain..that funny looking organ between our ears...

Part of the reason so many many people get so hung up on firsts is exactly for the reason that those "first" often release the first expulsion of nuero transmitters and pathways....

first real flirtings with great intent
first kisses....
first touches and being touched...all come with a first mind/brain jerk as well....

this is not to discount or diminish the person associated with these "firsts"...BUT it is to bring to forfront some not necessarily deep emotions but the reality of brain chemistry....

It has been said over and over even to me on a personal level..that the heroin addict is not chasing the heroin high on its own merit...but is really chasing the first heroin high...the first time the brain chemically encountered heroin...and even more psychologically addicting crack...is what the addict is seeking to re-enounter...

the pain and the great irony....of this is that it is impossible...to do...can't fool the brain...it never will experience a first again...

I think we humans can at times attach a lot of emotion to what really are just chemical reactions...to the point of causing ourselves great pain....and in some cases stagnating our ability to experience new things...if we are always clinging to the old..and placing high or to great of value on it...we can not so to speak live in the present..or value it as much...

And the more thought and energy we place on fleeting memories or rembrembances. ...the more we feed the cycle of placing GREAT VALUE on these things....so while our brain can replay or bring to the forfront for whatever reason..it is we who actually make a choice as to how value or meaning we have...

As much as you want to claim victim status in having a memory folder...there also should be some responsibility in realizing that you hold the key into how much power these thoughts/memories have on you....

We both had plenty of opportunities in our respective lives to have A’s. We both brushed them off as silly advances and stayed true. Until we saw each other again… it all went out the window and we both willingly stepped over the line.

Look at that sentiment,...victim status seeking??
inevitable destiny with a touch of soul mate.????
or just really really heavy rationalization??

to me it's really a skewed view of things...plenty of opportunities to be unfaithful....??? really???
do you really believe that???????

It seems to me that you have been holding yourself back a long long time...consciously or other wise.....some part of you has chosen to go this route...
and while you see yourself as making a lot of effort and sacrifice..(and I am not denying that as reality or your perception....)to make the marriage work....
.it is still you who hung on to these memories and fed the daydream to grow, in some cases to be larger than life....so you were more than ready for "HER"...and not the real "HER" most likely...but the thought/images of her you kept and fed for sooo long....

So perhaps you self sabotaged a little on the way...
or a lot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

just some food for thought..
ARK

Cooool ^^ARK^^ has launched her thoughts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TMD swears "I love the OW more than my W and always have."

Then TMD laments .... She {TMD's wife} won't fight for me."

This is a bit confusing. Are you saying you'd like your wife to fight for the marriage?

Pep

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

TMD, you are very similar to my H. He was not the type to have an A, never went looking for an A, no matter what troubles we may have been having at home. He was basically a good guy, but never really attempted to put 100% into our marriage. It always seemed to me like there was part of his heart that I could not reach. I made the best of it, told myself that he was "reserved" due to his poor childhood and that MY love for him was enough to make up for it.

THEN - in spring 2002 his highschool girlfriend ran into him in a grocery store (6 states away from his hometown), and they were going at it within hours of speaking for the first time in 15 years. So your comment, "Until we saw each other again… it all went out the window and we both willingly stepped over the line." sounds really familiar.

Luckily, OW was only in town for a month visiting her sick mom, who had remarried and by some cosmic JOKE had ended up not only living in MY hometown, but in the condos adjacent to MY highschool!! How cruel is that?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

During our marriage, I was aware of this girlfriend, but only in the sense that we had "compared notes" before we married and had discussed past relationships and our first loves as most couples do. My H had never really mentioned her during our marriage, but she did call once about a month after we were married at age 21. It was 2:30am - she was drunk & crying, asking WHY he married me. He dismissed her pretty quickly & insensitively - I didn't hear anything that would cause me to be concerned about future contact.

But - during our first marriage counseling session post d-day in May 2002, my H turned to me and said that this woman was the ONLY one I ever needed to fear - that SHE was someone he would NEVER be able to resist. Well gee, it would have been nice to have that information BEFORE we had been married 15 years!

Now something that ark^^ said really touches on what I have felt, and what I am sure your wife is feeling - "It seems to me that you have been holding yourself back a long long time...consciously or other wise.....some part of you has chosen to go this route..."
Like I said earlier, it was like my H had part of his heart reserved and I could not reach it.

You have said:
"My W has known about this A since near the inception." When was that?

"She won’t fight for me… which, in and of itself, is an integral piece of this convoluted puzzle." Why should SHE fight for YOU? In her mind, you made your choice years ago. What does she have left to fight FOR? Your inability to leave your past behind you has forever infected your marriage. She now wonders if you EVER loved her, if your marriage and life together all these years was just a LIE. What a selfish & cruel thing to do - to waste someone ELSE's life because YOU cannot stand to be alone with only your precious memories to warm your bed?
BTW - I fully realize that I still sound bitter (15 months post d-day) and I admit I am, although things are have improved significantly for us.

"I have no desire to let go of this renewed love I have for the OW." So you are asking us to help you feel better about losing the OW? This might be the wrong crowd for that. If you are asking how you can work on and possibly SAVE your marriage, you are in the right place.

"I love the OW more than my W and always have." I think this says all that needs to be said. Your wife does not deserve this - why make her compete with a ghost who may reappear at any time and turn her life upside down once again?

I cannot condem your W if she chooses to stay married to you, for I have done the same with my H... for now, and mainly for the sake of our son.

By not being 100% fully and conscienously invested in your marriage, you have cheated your wife from day one. The A did not begin on the day you slept with the OW, it really began the day you were married to your W.


Shelle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>TMD:

"Well.. who want's to be alone. Really. "

Ah!! I DO!!!

Think about it. Being emotionally healthy means not feeling "lost" or "incomplete" when you're alone.

Being alone is not the same thing as being lonely, if you're emotionally whole.

-2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like this one... I'll take this at face value.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ark^^:
[QB]hhhmmmmm.......the brain the brain the brain..that funny looking organ between our ears...

Ark.... I won't argue with any of that reasoning. It's probably the closest thing to my reality than anything else so far in this thread.

I've pondered just these thoughts well prior to your posting last night and have discussed the possibility of this being 'just the thrill again' prospect with the OW as well.

I know there are chemical nuances at work here. I'm human as are you. We run on chemicals. I'll accept and even embrace this reasoning. So to go geek on you; I have always tended toward the Kirk v. the Spock approach to dealing with emotion. I have difficulty pushing these feelings down nothing more that neurotransmitters. So I guess I could be classified and dropped into that folder labeled ‘Addict in Denial.’

Good read Ark. I like your mind.

-TMD

QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Cooool ^^ARK^^ has launched her thoughts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TMD swears "I love the OW more than my W and always have."

You forget to quote that the OW was not an option for me. I lost her. So I move on in life.

"Then TMD laments .... She {TMD's wife} won't fight for me."

This is a bit confusing."

It shouldn't be. This thread is getting long. the details, like I just clarified above, are important.

Are you saying you'd like your wife to fight for the marriage?

Pep</strong>[/QUOTE]

Of course I would! It would have been a stark contrast to the past. I DO love my wife and there was a time that the memories of the OW were just that... memories...

Ark suggests self-sabotage. That is probably accurate in the last several years... but prior to giving up... No. I was in it because I thought there was hope. So yes! If she fought for me like I fought in the beginning, I might get the feeling she's interested.

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ShelleBelle66:
<strong>TMD, you are very similar to my H. He was not the type to have an A, never went looking...

Now something that ark^^ said really touches on what I have felt, and what I am sure your wife is feeling - "It seems to me that you have been holding yourself back a long long time...consciously or other wise.....some part of you has chosen to go this route..."
Like I said earlier, it was like my H had part of his heart reserved and I could not reach it.

---------- Out of 13 years of marriage. I held myself back only after I gave up trying to fill her love bank in every way I could think. That's God's honest truth. 2Long suggests that I should have never stopped trying if my love was unconditional... Newsflash... NOBODY stays in a relationship that gives nothing back!!! My own close friends, who said nothing in respect for my marriage, upon separation told me they didn't understand why I put up with the crap... I NEVER badmouthed her... ever... they just saw it! I was stunned by that revelation. So if you loved and cherished and were attentive to your husband, then I commend you. That experience in my marriage would have been life changing. And NO 2Long... that is NOT REVISIONIST HISTORY!

You have said:
"My W has known about this A since near the inception." When was that?

</strong>--------I contacted the OW after I found her listed in an online database. (I checked the Database 2 or 3 times a year after her call 6 years ago.) That was end of March 2003. She wrote back and basically said... nice to hear from you but no more contact. She called me 4 days later. I had been job hunting and had my resume posted on my family website, which I had shared with her in my first email, she pulled my office number from the resume and called. She said she had a layover in my city and wanted to know if I would like to have coffee and talk. Coffee happened April 23rd 2003. We just talked. Spent hours on the phone after. She arranged a longer layover on another business trip early May. I took her to a public place so as to make physical contact inconvenient. It was talking and crying and blah blah. I told my wife about the A after that visit. The physical stuff happened after that. The A was long distance. Mostly phone calls. A few plane tickets... etc. I got my letter June 22nd. 2 months. <strong>

"She won’t fight for me… which, in and of itself, is an integral piece of this convoluted puzzle." Why should SHE fight for YOU? In her mind, you made your choice years ago. What does she have left to fight FOR? Your inability to leave your past behind you has forever infected your marriage. She now wonders if you EVER loved her, if your marriage and life together all these years was just a LIE. What a selfish & cruel thing to do - to waste someone ELSE's life because YOU cannot stand to be alone with only your precious memories to warm your bed?
BTW - I fully realize that I still sound bitter (15 months post d-day) and I admit I am, although things are have improved significantly for us.

</strong>------ You use words that have come out of my W's mouth verbatim. Yes... you do still sound bitter which further supports my belief that this will hang over us for life should we attempt reconciliation. it's one reason I can't see ever going back.<strong>

"I have no desire to let go of this renewed love I have for the OW." So you are asking us to help you feel better about losing the OW? This might be the wrong crowd for that. If you are asking how you can work on and possibly SAVE your marriage, you are in the right place.

</strong>----------No... I've not ever asked for that! What I wanted from this group is what I'm getting. Honesty and thought processes not my own. This has already been invaluable to me. Including your post. <strong>

"I love the OW more than my W and always have." I think this says all that needs to be said. Your wife does not deserve this - why make her compete with a ghost who may reappear at any time and turn her life upside down once again?

</strong>-------- Very good point. You're right again. My W has said the same. And I agree with both of you.<strong>

I cannot condemn your W if she chooses to stay married to you, for I have done the same with my H... for now, and mainly for the sake of our son.

</strong>-------- In the long run... My own son would know it was for him and not for marital love. I wonder if he'll resent that. I have a niece and nephew from my oldest sibling. Their mom and dad stayed together for the kids. their kids... now 21 and 26. Both say how stupid it was for them to stay together on their account. All the angst and bitterness they witnessed over the years. Bitterness you still hold inside.<strong>

___

By not being 100% fully and conscienously invested in your marriage, you have cheated your wife from day one. The A did not begin on the day you slept with the OW, it really began the day you were married to your W.

</strong>-------- That's a nice thought but a bit skewed by your personal perspective, though my wife might agree. I personally have never heard of a one sided A. I will admit to the omission not being fair. I'll admit to some bad choices early on. I'll admit to not having the tools at my disposal at the age of 23 to even know what I was doing was questionable. Baggage notwithstanding...I loved her. That's why I married her. <strong>


Shelle</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-TMD

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

This one slipped through the cracks. wanted to comment though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trying2_4give:
<strong>Wow, I feel compelled to write to you my thoughts but don't actually know what to say in this case. I am not religious in any way so I can't go that route, I wish i could say the TYPICAL MB saying which is MARRIAGE AT ANY COST but I can't in this case. I understand you love someone else, not your wife and don't want to learn to fall in love with your wife again. WHO WOULD! Doesn't sound romantic in the least. I think they need new words for that LEARNING TO FALL IN LOVE...how about AWAKENING THAT LOVE THAT HAS BEEN PUSHED BACK!</strong>

yeah... that would be a bit easier to stomach. <strong>

First of all as far as your wife not wanting to work on the marriage, that's not suprising. Why would she want a man that is saying I LOVE SOMEONE ELSE AND I DON'T FEEL BAD IN THE LEAST! Not bashing you but let's get real here.

</strong>
OK... this is an odd one... I DO love my wife... and I DO feel horiible for hurting her... I just don't feel bad for loving the OW is all. get it? <strong>

What I am saying is not very MB and I will get bashed for it but my thoughts: Let your wife go, let her find what REAL LOVE is, from your explanation of what you felt for her from the beginning doesn't even sound like REAL LOVE,

</strong>
REAL LOVE - hmmmn... felt like it... once.
<strong>

sounds like she was a "WELL THERE IS NOBODY ELSE AROUND SO MIGHT AS WELL CHOSE HER" that's how I read your post anyhow, i could be wrong.
</strong>
The post could be interpreted that way i guess. Yes. I settled. That doesn't mean I didn't love her. It also doesn't mean I couldn't have loved her more.
<strong>

I don't believe that everyone who made a vow SHOULD STAY MARRIED! Reality just isn't like that. SOME PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE MARRIED TO ONE ANOTHER PERIOD! But what i will say is this. I don't see an everlasting relationship with your OW either. You haven't lived with her through good and bad times, that will be the test. The percentage of marriages that last due to affairs are LOW, extremely LOW!
</strong>

Boy howdy! What?!? Is THAT statistic the stock weapon of the counseling world or what? I simply wont make the assumptions you're willing to. Why? There's always the other side of the statistic. Everyone here in this thread suggests that I married under false pretenses. If that's the case, then whew! What a blunder!<strong>

Another thing I have a problem with it sounds as if you LIVE for this relationship, you can't work, have to be medicated, looking for all kinds of counsel, nothing wrong with that. You just sound extremely lost and waiting for someone else to throw you a life jacket.

</strong>
Still waiting. This crowd may have more rope than floatation devices in the end. I'm trying to be open to the possibilities and ideas. The knowing the OW is out of reach is still painful but I think instead of fading with time as MB suggests... I'm just going numb. That's probably very bad. But it's the closest thing I can compare it to.
<strong>

You can't depend on OW to come and save the day and everything will be HAPPILY EVER AFTER, doesn't work that way. You need to figure out what it is she gives you that breaking up 2 homes will accomplish your happiness.

</strong>
Again - I can only speak for me. The OW is trying with her H. My W, on the other hand, presently not interested. I did tell her at one point that if she did want to go to counseling and try to fix this, that she deserved that effort on my part. I don't know where that's going to go. Right now I believe i should let her go find REAL LOVE as you put it.
<strong>

Is it the thrill, chase, drama, diversion of having to work/face on yourself and your own issues?
</strong>

Well - no and yes. Though drama may be the only word that is fitting. I'm looking for me. Part of that is going back to the past and figuring out where i messed up and fixing it if it's fixable. Healing it where it's healable. Forgiving where there is the capacity to forgive. Acknowledging fault and improving... yes... for me and my own issues.

Thanks for your thoughts,

-TMD

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

bear with me...I have a face full of novacaine after a lovely morning visit with my sadistic dentist...who hides behind a mask...and my brain right now feels more like abbynormals from Young Frankenstein...

Dr. Phil would say that we never do anything...even painful things without some sort of personal payoff or gain...

So what is the payoff keeping the memories of her alive...
pre-marriage
during marriage
once the affair is on..
and now that she has gone NC with you...

what is YOUR gain...and I do understand that you can see where the memories faded and did not have a lot of impact on your day to day life...and then periods like now where they consume you and stagnate...

what are YOU gaining from this my friend????

safety from never being truly intimate with someone
An excuse to never really get close to anyone else in your life...??
A badge of some sort...??
An excuse for behavior....??
(not attacking just seeking)

Dear wife I love you BUT you should know there is someone out "there" who will always have my heart....?????? (pieces of at best) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

What was your point in telling her that...
If were in literature class all our hands would go up to point out an example of forshadowing...
self fullfilling prophecy....

Speaking of young frankenstien....

gene wilder loved loved loved gilda radner..and they had a pretty good life...money fame travel..... people who knew them spoke of their love all the time...and tragically as we know she died....

gene wilder met and fell in love with a woman behind the counter at his bank...
he loves her deeply...and fully....
and IF anyone had reason or if ever there was anyone with whom people secretly feared he could never love again ...he proved them wrong....

YOU clung to the love of someone who for whatever reasons didn't work out before meeting your wife..and YOU never did move on from that...

What was YOUR gain...
cause we can easily see the loss on all sides...but what did YOU gain....

And know that none of this is to belittle your feelings....they are real and do have great meaning and aren't just chemical reactions...
but they are also learning experiences on which to build and move on through life....
OR they stagnate and hold us back....
partly because we choose to let them hold us back...

BUT BUT BUT
in all honesty people that know me here know I am a much more fish or cut bait kind of girl..

not into lables, and to much rehashing of the past...but taking a look at the present...
and deciding what it is you want here...I am still not clear what it is you are seeking "here"

ARK

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>bear with me... </strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ARK - You are good... are you really Dr. Phil in disguise? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Instead of stepping through all your questions, I'll make some comments based on what you wrote.

First and foremost; I wish my counselors could state things the way you do and provide the perspectives that you do. You are amazing. Thank You...

I saw a movie last night. 'The Recruit' which in and of itself was bordering on insipid. There was a line in the movie that Pacino delivered that struck me hard and i almost couldn't concentrate on the movie afterward.

Pacino to recruit: "You gotta stop looking back or your life is gonna pass you by."

Add your Novocain induced post to that and WOW!

Yes you understood correctly that there was a time when the memories were just that. When she called 6 years ago, I suppose that contact made the memories something tangible - at least in my mind.

You wanted to know on many levels what I feel I've gained by holding on to this. Today... at this moment in time... I've gained little, though most here would strip me of even that morsel, and lost everything. TRUTH.

One thing I gained that means something to me, because the emotions and love are very real, is knowing that the OW has been feeling the same and going through the similar experiences in her life as they relate to me. This, I'm sure sounds like tripe to most of you, but for me... it's vindicating to know that it wasn't in my head all these years. TRUTH AGAIN.

RIGHT or WRONG- I love her and she loves me and it's always been that way and we should have gotten married and we didn't and we made choices that were not sound including but not limited to the choice to make contact years later and we created lives that didn't include each other and we suffer the consequences of not letting it go all these years and because of the longevity of it, neither of us believe that this is something that will go away and both of us cling to it in our own way.

I know there are myriad pithy remarks coming on that last run. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I understand that lie of omission in my own marriage now for what it is. That's why I feel it would be a farce to step back into that relationship with my W or rather 'learn to love' her in a different way.

I guess maybe I've been looking for what I was looking for. Maybe that's why I'm 'here' ARK. Maybe I’m looking for someone to convince me that not working it out with my W is the wrong choice. In the interim; and if it accomplishes nothing more than this, so be it, this thread and those participating in it have assisted in firing neural pathways that did not exist prior. If nothing else I know my primary goal is to find ME. Because I thought I knew ME. And I’m not so confident about that anymore. Once I get there…??? Well… I don’t know what will happen when I find me again. I just don’t know. Maybe I’m afraid of who I’ll find. (Pep will be all over that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) Truth is ARK, I’m just looking… and I need people to argue with me and reason with me and mostly to not give up on me. (I hear a few slams coming on that one too…) there you are ARK…. for what it’s worth. The walls are slowly coming down Pep.

Resigned,

-TMD

When did you give yourself permission to cheat? What was the self-talk like as you made the decision to go against your moral values?

Pep

bizarre 2ble post!

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

TMD:

don't feel so on the defensive here.

And I say that knowing that much of what you talk about is not unique! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The specifics will always be, though.

What you might interpret as slamming is really us driving our points in a direction where we see light coming through the cracks of this construction of yours that you think is your life. And that isn't mean as an insult. It seems pretty real when you're dealing with it, doesn't it? Just remember that YOU have power over your life, not it over you. "Love" doesn't just "happen". There aren't any "soulmates" out there. Or if there are, there are billions of them. The past serves 2 teach us all something, it shouldn't be used as a means of self-abuse.

-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>When did you give yourself permission to cheat? What was the self-talk like as you made the decision to go against your moral values?

Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I imagine it was when I sent the OW the email in march. It may have been way back after her first phone call. It depends, I guess, on where the lines of infidelity are drawn. Maybe it was the day I made my vows to my W. I believe that it was the moment I asked the OW if I could kiss her and then did it. That was the point of no return for me. That's when I felt I'd cheated.

-TMD

I had my 1st love as my boyfriend/live-in for 14 years.

Married someone else. (Mr. Pepper)

Many years later, I saw 1st love at our HS reunion. I was looking forward to checking in with him and being all friendly ..... After about 5 minutes he says (all puppy eyed) "I should have married you when I had the chance!" .... I said "You never wanted to marry me then, and it was the best thing for both of us." Then I left him standing there, I had refused to take the bait.

Almost every one of us had a first love we think about from time to time. It did not work out because it was not a good fit.

Reconnecting with your 1st love for a few romantic weeks consisting of long-distance phone calls and some fly-away weekend coochie-coo is NOT a fantasy? Sure it is.

The "feelings" are not fantasy .... the relationship is 100% a fantasy.

When is it really real life?..... not until you've argued over finances, been exhausted with each other's irritating habits, seen each other vomit, heard and smelled each other's farts .... Once you and OW had to deal with REAL honest-to-God life .... the boring day in and day out nit-picky crap that one must endure, once you experienced her PMS full force, heard her nag, felt the sharpness of her criticism of the way you do laundry .... I might be impressed with how REAL your relationship was.

Your FEELINGS are not your relationship.

When did OW's husband learn of the affair? Before it began, when it was just flirting phone conversation? Or later than that? Did her H make a discovery, or did she confess? How exactly did it unfold on her side?

Pep

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>TMD:

don't feel so on the defensive here.</strong>

It's autonomic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I'm trying to loosen up 2Long. Really, I am.<strong>

And I say that knowing that much of what you talk about is not unique! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong>

*laughing* <strong>

The specifics will always be, though.

</strong> Thank you for that. You're figuring out how my mind works eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <strong>

What you might interpret as slamming is really us driving our points in a direction where we see light coming through the cracks of this construction of yours that you think is your life. And that isn't mean as an insult. It seems pretty real when you're dealing with it, doesn't it?

</strong>
Fair enough on all counts. I won't agree with all of it but I won't neccessarily dismiss it out of hand either. Reality is certainly subjective.
<strong>

Just remember that YOU have power over your life, not it over you.

</strong>
Doesn't seem like it right now... but i agree with the statement. <strong>

"Love" doesn't just "happen".

</strong> Strongly disagree. Your talking about a constructed, "learned" love. I don't believe in that. Never have. That's likely part of my problem in all this. What say you on THAT? <strong>

There aren't any "soulmates" out there.

</strong>
Only someone without a soulmate would say that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just saying what I feel 2Long. No malice in my words. OK? <strong>

Or if there are, there are billions of them.

</strong> Well, there is certainly the potential for billions. That world would be a eutopia.<strong>

The past serves 2 teach us all something, it shouldn't be used as a means of self-abuse.

</strong> MMmmmnnn.... *sighing deeply* yes.<strong>

-2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-TMD