</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>I had my 1st love as my boyfriend/live-in for 14 years.

Married someone else. (Mr. Pepper)

Many years later, I saw 1st love at our HS reunion. I was looking forward to checking in with him and being all friendly ..... After about 5 minutes he says (all puppy eyed) "I should have married you when I had the chance!" .... I said "You never wanted to marry me then, and it was the best thing for both of us." Then I left him standing there, I had refused to take the bait.

</strong> Yeah. That's how I treated the OW the first time she called 6 years ago. I said "Continued contact would be inappropriate." Viola! End of call. But there was no puppy crap like you mentioned. <strong>

Almost every one of us had a first love we think about from time to time. It did not work out because it was not a good fit.

</strong> Do you believe that is the case for evey person on the planet who is going through this? Really? Is it that cut and dried for you? "was not a good fit." If I could swallow that pill, this would be a whole lot easier. <strong>

Reconnecting with your 1st love for a few romantic weeks consisting of long-distance phone calls and some fly-away weekend coochie-coo is NOT a fantasy? Sure it is.

The "feelings" are not fantasy .... the relationship is 100% a fantasy.

</strong> Thank You - I've never said I had a current relationship with this OW. I have REAL feelings that are nowhere near fantasy. I'm with you there.<strong>

When is it really real life?..... not until you've argued over finances, been exhausted with each other's irritating habits, seen each other vomit, heard and smelled each other's farts .... Once you and OW had to deal with REAL honest-to-God life .... the boring day in and day out nit-picky crap that one must endure, once you experienced her PMS full force, heard her nag, felt the sharpness of her criticism of the way you do laundry .... I might be impressed with how REAL your relationship was.

</strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> *laughing hysterically* Some of these things I do know. But again... There is no relationship and there may never be. No illusions there for me. OK? <strong>

Your FEELINGS are not your relationship. </strong>

Right. OK. I've mastered the distinction. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <strong>

When did OW's husband learn of the affair? Before it began, when it was just flirting phone conversation? Or later than that? Did her H make a discovery, or did she confess? How exactly did it unfold on her side?

</strong> Pep? Listen. My W does what you're doing and it drives me nuts! For the sake of my sanity, can we avoid the invalidation drive-bys like 'when it was just flirting phone conversation.' I know it may have been unintended but cripes! UUghhh! For the record... Most of the phone conversations were very tearful and frankly quite tragic in their own right. Some consisted of questions only... tough and pointed ones on her part... some were quite brutal and sharp with critcism...and some were just plain loving.

Her H found out by her own admission the same time I told my W. I actually called her once while she was in counseling with him. Didn't know that was happening. She answered. Took me a while to recover from that one. They had been talking about my scheduled visit to her city with their counselor when I called. She told them who it was. There were no secrets. It was pretty in your face stuff. That answer your question? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <strong>

Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-TMD

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

"driveby invalidation" ... switched off. (I think, if I can figure out what I did, I will not do it consciously, thanks for the warning.)

Actually, I think the "in your face" direct approach is far superior to most other ways I've heard disvovery described!

At least the spouses were not left wondering about their sanity.

Good for her (OW) and good for her H.

Pep

WHEW... the novacaine has worn off...today for the first time in my life I could have literally cut my nose off to spite my face... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

madlytrulydeeply...IF there is one thing I believe madly truly and deeply is that people can change....

yep...they do it all the time...logically I believe you can change as well...
and I believe you should...because the payoff of what you have done so far....hasn't worked...

and remember the definition of insanity we all have come to know and love around here is...

doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results....is the definition of insanity...

You in a way have viewed your life in the same way...for a long long time...and it has not served you or others well...

What if you let go of looking at things the same way...
what would happen...

you said...
I love her and she loves me and it's always been that way and we should have gotten married and we didn't and we made choices that were not sound including but not limited to the choice to make contact years later and we created lives that didn't include each other and we suffer the consequences of not letting it go all these years and because of the longevity of it, neither of us believe that this is something that will go away and both of us cling to it in our own way.

What if you changed your whole perspective on this...
not in a denial way..but looking at in a new way...and people face looking at life in a new way with things that a lot harder than this burden...just ask a recent spinal cord injury now who will never walk again...people change and adjust...

When do you in your life deal with and accept that you didn't get married and move on and away..
when do you decide that you are not going to live another as a victim to that and let life be...enjoyable....
when do you decide that one fact is not really powerful enough to keep all happiness from reaching you...
when are you going to give yourself permission to stop suffering....Your own words...

Nothing will ever be "like" it was/is between the two of you...that's true...but that does not condem you to nothing being as good or gasp God forbid even better...ohhh horrors... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
imagine you being happy and enjoying life...inspite of believing you should continue to punish and be punished for not marrying HER!!!!

YOU SAID
That's why I feel it would be a farce to step back into that relationship with my W or rather 'learn to love' her in a different way.

Ooooh I can read the between the lines...what you are really saying...is
I won't change....
that's what that paragraph states...

you said....
If nothing else I know my primary goal is to find ME.
Ohh I'm gonna find you...with the perverbial two by four....and when I do I'll send my dentist after ya... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARK

I'm Speechless.

-TMD

"I contacted the OW after I found her listed in an online database." Let us guess... "Classmates.com" perhaps? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Ok, so I was wrong about you being similar to my H in that respect. You DID go looking for this OW and the A, it WAS premeditated.

"You use words that have come out of my W's mouth verbatim. Yes... you do still sound bitter..." Ok, I admit to going to "my angry place <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> " when posting that response. I actually dug out & read from a journal that I kept in the early days right after d-day. That fresh anger & hurt is what I was trying to communicate based on where your wife's head & heart might be right now. Sounds like I was pretty close.

"...which further supports my belief that this will hang over us for life should we attempt reconciliation. it's one reason I can't see ever going back." Don't be so quick to give up there TMD. Oh yeah, this past year since d-day (04/25/02) has been like a living he!! for us, but you know what? I would have to say that the emphasis of that year would be on the "living" part and not the "he!!" part. To be honest, after 14 years of marriage, we had gotten lazy. We took each other & our marriage for granted. It seems kind of strange to say this, but we both told our MC that the A and the resulting chaos made us feel "alive" for the first time in a very long time.

"Both say how stupid it was for them to stay together on their account. All the angst and bitterness they witnessed over the years. Bitterness you still hold inside." I can honestly say that the bitterness that lingers now is nowhere near what I was feeling a year ago. And a year from now, I expect it to have faded even more. One does not recover from this kind of shock hastily, or it will not get fully resolved and may very well "hang over" a marriage for a lifetime. My goal is to ensure that does not happen to us. This A was a mere blip on the radar of a relationship of 15 years. Although it profoundly changed our relationship, it will not be allowed to destroy it. This A does not define WHO my husband is to me and I will not spend my life punishing him for it. I can say that NOW, mind you, but that is surely NOT what I was saying for about the first six months after this happened! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"Baggage notwithstanding...I loved her. That's why I married her." So what changed? You have alluded to your W being outwardly unpleasant enough for your friends to comment to you, (albeit in the safety of your ensuing seperation), that they didn't understand how you put up with all the "crap". Care to elaborate? No need to wife-bash, that's not what I'm asking for. It's more to get a feeling for your tolerance level for common marital issues.

How about just focusing on what changed with you & your W in the six years since OW's call to you, which you seemed to strongly rebuff? You say that you have a 5 year old child - did the marriage start to go downhill with the pregnancy and the arrival of the baby?

"I held myself back only after I gave up trying to fill her love bank in every way I could think." Were you really? Filling her love bank in ways that were meaningful to HER and not just what YOU were comfortable giving? I ask this because my H would have said the same thing. And he was waaaaayyyy off the mark. Funny how two people can share daily life and see the same experiences so differently - never ceases to amaze me.

"I DO love my wife... and I DO feel horiible for hurting her... I just don't feel bad for loving the OW is all. get it?" Got it. And you should NOT feel bad for loving OW. She is, and will always be, part of your history. I respect that about my H's OW, as he respects my past relationships. My H found out very quickly that they could not live on "remember whens...?" It was pure escape from reality that had a very short shelf-life.

"Is THAT statistic the stock weapon of the counseling world or what? I simply wont make the assumptions you're willing to. Why?" My bet is you are in denial and think that the statistics won't apply to you and Mrs. Soulmate.

"The OW is trying with her H. My W, on the other hand, presently not interested." What have YOU done to raise her interest level? Sounds like you have just left it up to her to deal with.

"I'm looking for me. Part of that is going back to the past and figuring out where i messed up and fixing it if it's fixable. Oh, so you were "fixing" things by instigating and carrying on the A! How noble of you... sounds like a mid-life crisis to me, but call it what you wish. Why the need to go back and fix the PAST? Why not a fresh start and attitude towards the FUTURE? You'd have much better odds of success.

"Forgiving where there is the capacity to forgive. Acknowledging fault and improving."
Now we've got something to work with!
For starters, how about forgiving yourself for making some mistakes? How about forgiving your W for not being the W you imagined or expected, but maybe doing the best she could with what (and who) she had to work with? How about acknowledging fault for looking OUTSIDE the marriage during times of trouble rather than turning IN to the marriage and TOWARDS your W?

How about EARNING your way out of this marriage? (to blatantly quote Dr.Phil!)

Shelle

.....U sound like my WS did right after d/d. Even told some elders he knew it was wrong and wasn't sorry....took him a long time to figure that one out. 6 yr old figured it out before the 38 year old.

L.

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>WHEW... the novacaine has worn off...today for the first time in my life I could have literally cut my nose off to spite my face... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong>

Did your nose run and you didn't know it?

<strong>

madlytrulydeeply...IF there is one thing I believe madly truly and deeply is that people can change....

</strong> No doubt. <strong>

yep...they do it all the time...logically I believe you can change as well...
and I believe you should...because the payoff of what you have done so far....hasn't worked...

and remember the definition of insanity we all have come to know and love around here is...

doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results....is the definition of insanity...

</strong> Who’d have guess I've been insane for 15 years? Certainly not me. <strong>

You in a way have viewed your life in the same way...for a long long time...and it has not served you or others well...

What if you let go of looking at things the same way...
what would happen...

</strong> ARK - I... honestly... I mean.... Honest to God in Heaven... I don't feel like I've been doing it the same way. Shelle replied to my post as a woman who can relate to my W's pain intimately.

Shelle suggests that I didn't try the right things. The truth is I did, in the beginning, try to talk to her. That's right... ME, a man, tried to communicate. I told my W my issues with the marriage... (what better way to determine what the right thing is to do?) I asked why all the little intimacies I loved so much were going away one by one. They were chalked up as so many immature processes that, as it turns out, she always hated.

My W reiterated that last night during another unpleasant dialog on the subject. I swallowed all that and said to myself... over the years.... the important thing is that we're together. Find another way,... I tried every angle I could discern. It never occurred to me to see a counselor. I guess I always felt I had the mental acuity to work it through. Somehow - someday - I would find the holy grail and life would improve.

Even after my W removed all - and I mean ALL - intimacy from our relationship... oh there was this 'duty-driven come-and-get-it game we played' but no intimacy, no platform for spontaneity. I watched - no matter what I did - I watched everything I felt was important in the marriage go away.

My W responds to that with: "You changed" I'm like... AAhhhhhhhhh!! No #$&^ Sherlock. So did you!! I changed over and over trying to get you back.

ARK - In my way of thinking... she needs to understand how I got to the point in our marriage where I quit trying to recover the magic.... the love, and just settled into the mundane chores of what seemed a loveless marriage. I said that to her last night. She can only focus on the hurt I've caused her. I told my W.. "I was NOT ever thinking of the OW when I was trying to fix US." "Those we're fleeting - once-and-a-while memories I can't suppress triggered by unexpected stimuli; not the living, breathing memory it came to be in recent days."

She, my W, refuses to admit that she pulled the rug out from under me. She doesn't deny that I tried to communicate and that things were better in the early years. She refuses to GET that it all shut down because I did it ALL!! ALL OF IT!! AND NEVER - EVER - RECIEVED ANYTHING BACK!!

My W replies to that with... "But I'm not the aggressor! You knew that! She says through tears that still break my heart." I said. " It's not about being the aggressor. It's about loving ME. It's about that part inside of you that can't resist the desire to be near me. That part that needs to hold me for the sake of holding me... sheesh... this is making me cry ... the part of you that loves me so much you need to call me on the phone at work and say it.

"That's not me." My W says.

"It used to be." I replied.

ARK - The first Fantasy in my life was the one where I saw my W showing me she loves me in some way besides obvious onerous marital duty.

Isn't there a time when you say enough? 2Long suggests that there is no expiration date. But your words to me say that it's insane for me to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. That's why I was speechless... because you're right. All of it was right; but for reasons possibly outside of your purpose.

It's not that I wont change ARK. I did change; time and again. But I believe that there are a few things that you have brought to the fore of my thoughts:
I may love again. And I can find happiness... Maybe it will be the teller behind the bank counter. Maybe it will be the OW. Maybe it will be the woman I sit next to on the plane 7 years from now. Maybe I won't ever be able to love again. All are possibilities. But notwithstanding companionship, I CAN be happy. That's up to me. I believe that.
I can't keep doing what I'm doing. What I need out of this marriage is a fantasy. Plain and simple. Going back to fix a thing that my spouse believes is not broken but rather immature? An effective way of missing out on the rest of my life. <strong>

you said...
I love her and she loves me and it's always been that way and we should have gotten married and we didn't and we made choices that were not sound including but not limited to the choice to make contact years later and we created lives that didn't include each other and we suffer the consequences of not letting it go all these years and because of the longevity of it, neither of us believe that this is something that will go away and both of us cling to it in our own way.

What if you changed your whole perspective on this...
not in a denial way..but looking at in a new way...and people face looking at life in a new way with things that a lot harder than this burden...just ask a recent spinal cord injury now who will never walk again...people change and adjust... </strong>

I will. Your words here convinced me to. Thank You. <strong>

When do you in your life deal with and accept that you didn't get married and move on and away..

</strong> Today. <strong>

when do you decide that you are not going to live another as a victim to that and let life be...enjoyable....

</strong> Today. <strong>

when do you decide that one fact is not really powerful enough to keep all happiness from reaching you...

</strong> Today. <strong>

when are you going to give yourself permission to stop suffering....Your own words...

</strong>

This part will take time. Approximately 3 weeks if Dr. Harley is accurate.

<strong>

Nothing will ever be "like
" it was/is between the two of you...that's true...but that does not condem you to nothing being as good or gasp God forbid even better...ohhh horrors... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
imagine you being happy and enjoying life...inspite of believing you should continue to punish and be punished for not marrying HER!!!!

</strong> I know it cant be better. Even after I took terrible language from my W last night, I went back to her twice and forced myself to try to talk... to communicate... and you know what ARK? It reaped the same outcomes I've been getting for years. Imagine that. INSANITY! <strong>

YOU SAID
That's why I feel it would be a farce to step back into that relationship with my W or rather 'learn to love' her in a different way.

Ooooh I can read the between the lines...what you are really saying...is
I won't change....
that's what that paragraph states...

</strong> No and Yes. I don't believe in learning to Love. I DO believe in putting everything you have into making the relationship part work... the love has to be present for success to be attainable. I love my W. I honestly believe that she never truly understood the concept. She was a mimic and she quit the act when the vows were spoken...

I DID change. I'm a completely different man now than I was then. Parts of me I need to learn to accept and love again. That will be hard. I never believed I had the capacity to cheat. I never believed I had the capacity to divorce. Here I am. Willing now to face it for what it is. You're right ARK, I will NOT change for her anymore. That would be INSANE. <strong>

you said....
If nothing else I know my primary goal is to find ME.

</strong> I did... last night. Your words are powerful. I knew I liked your mind the first time you posted. <strong>

Ohh I'm gonna find you...with the perverbial two by four....and when I do I'll send my dentist after ya... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</strong> 2X4 discovered and dislodged. Dental work not required

Thanks To All Of You -

-TMD (The Mission Defined)
<strong>
ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ July 18, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

TMD..
No I my nose didn't run..but I think I was drooling a couple times here and there....

I believe you...I feel like bruce willis with the little kid in the sixth sense.....telling him for the first time that he sees dead people...and bruce telling him he believes him....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I do believe that you tried and tried...and i believe you when you say your wife didn't get it and didn't respond..

and you gave up...

I believe you when you say she doesn't get it now..BUT ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...I am not clear on what your point on that issue with your wife...(I mean I can see but what is the point of that THAT issue is in the big picture of a marriage...but what is your point in relationship to YOU having an affair..

why RIGHT now in this moment at time do you want clarification and verification of what you did in the past...
just a question not an attack...
seek deep if it is not justification for your actions...and be wary of that slippery slope...(or as we say in the northeast...slippy slope..

....It may be that right now you two are on way...way different pages if not chapters and are not able to HEAR either right now...

I am assuming that you realize none of the marital lackings JUSTIFY an affair....
I am sure you get that...

BUT all your wife is hearing, all these things she did wrong...and then you had an affair...

instant defensiveness on her part...

And you are not necessarily wrong about the importance of her role in a marriage...
or her need to meet your needs...BUT if you attempt to deliver that message entangled with the affair issue...
you two are doomed
to power struggles and shutting out what the others says...

YOU are correct..it takes two...and she is responsible for her negligence...and if she doesn't ever get it..and you know you tried your best...then make your peace with that...
BUT you must seprerate YOUR responsibility of the affair from what she did or didn't do....

And if you and her are to heal in anyway..you need to be responsible and accountable for your part...
even facing the pain it caused...because it is easier to run from that pain...
even letting go of some what you did try in the past...as well as her learning to let go also...

For some an affair is the biggest wake up call one can encounter..perhaps she needs a little time to look at this...sit with it a little while..

Hear her anger...give the chance for her to unload her pain for a little bit..
are you two living together....
are you getting along at all...

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>TMD..
No I my nose didn't run..but I think I was drooling a couple times here and there....

I believe you...I feel like bruce willis with the little kid in the sixth sense.....telling him for the first time that he sees dead people...and bruce telling him he believes him....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I do believe that you tried and tried...and i believe you when you say your wife didn't get it and didn't respond..

and you gave up...

I believe you when you say she doesn't get it now..BUT ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )...I am not clear on what your point on that issue with your wife...(I mean I can see but what is the point of that THAT issue is in the big picture of a marriage...but what is your point in relationship to YOU having an affair..

</strong>

I told her last night. "I was wrong. It was wrong. I had no right. It wasn't fair. I did it."

She said. "You don't care that you hurt me. You have no remorse for the pain you caused me"

I said. " You're confusing facts" "I DO have great regret for the pain I've caused you and others.

I said.. "Deep beneath the pain you know that is true if for no other reason than for how out of character this whole story is for me." (Silence)

I said: "It's true that I do love her." ..."It is true that I do not regret having found that feeling again." "It's true that causes you more pain and for that I'm sorry."

I said: "Not to diminish the fact of the affair. Can we set that aside for a moment and talk about us?" "how we got to this?"

ARK - Mind you. This was after I got reamed soundly and I just took it. 3 times over. I still went back and tried to communicate. Softly and with gentle voice. Not condescending.

The point is NOT in reference to the affair. The point was... over the years... and last night again.. to try to clarify what is wrong with US. To meet minds on some level that would allow both of us to say... "OK I get it" But the closest I come is a grudging admission that she "can see how my perceptions of what (she) failed to contribute to the marriage pushed me to the act of an affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Insanity.

You'll probably say... "See? She’s on a different page." Yes... but by choice. She knew very well what I was trying to get us to confront. She bypassed it as she always has... trivialized my thoughts and feelings as she always has. And sits in the role of victim saying... "You don't love me you're going to leave me..." as she always has... because in the past, that would get me... I would feel guilty for making her think I didn't love her. Man was I a pushover. <strong>

why RIGHT now in this moment at time do you want clarification and verification of what you did in the past...
just a question not an attack...
seek deep if it is not justification for your actions...and be wary of that slippery slope...(or as we say in the northeast...slippy slope..

</strong>

Again... I know my actions were wrong. I've stated as much. There is no justification for infidelity. It's one of the changes in ME I have to learn to accept and forgive before anyone else's forgiveness will matter.

I need to know that I did enough. That I DID try hard. That it wasn't all in my head. That's why I force myself to keep calm in the torrent and talk... to try again amidst the chaos of this tragedy of my marriage to see her reaction to the same old marital baggage. No change. That's when the comments you made to me in the post defining INSANITY turned 180 degrees. Yeah... "Why am I still doing this?" "This will never change." It struck me with salient clarity.
<strong>

....It may be that right now you two are on way...way different pages if not chapters and are not able to HEAR either right now...

I am assuming that you realize none of the marital lackings JUSTIFY an affair....
I am sure you get that...

BUT all your wife is hearing, all these things she did wrong...and then you had an affair...

instant defensiveness on her part...

And you are not necessarily wrong about the importance of her role in a marriage...
or her need to meet your needs...BUT if you attempt to deliver that message entangled with the affair issue...
you two are doomed
to power struggles and shutting out what the others says...

YOU are correct..it takes two...and she is responsible for her negligence...and if she doesn't ever get it..and you know you tried your best...then make your peace with that...
BUT you must seprerate YOUR responsibility of the affair from what she did or didn't do....

</strong> I believe I understood that need and made the attempt to clarify the topic at hand... as I described above. <strong>

And if you and her are to heal in anyway.. you need to be responsible and accountable for your part...
even facing the pain it caused...because it is easier to run from that pain...
even letting go of some what you did try in the past...as well as her learning to let go also...

For some an affair is the biggest wake up call one can encounter.. perhaps she needs a little time to look at this...sit with it a little while..

Hear her anger...give the chance for her to unload her pain for a little bit..

</strong> Oh she's unloading alright! As much as she thinks I'm a stranger now, I've met a woman I've never known existed. Her outbursts are vile.<strong>

are you two living together....

</strong> I've been in and out of the house. Back out for good now. Looking for a roomie. <strong>

are you getting along at all...

</strong> We will get along fine after she cools off. She's been cordial when life requires it. But I get the vile jabs whenever she can squeeze one in. <strong>

-TMD

ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"Man was I a pushover."

It might be useful for you to explore why you chose to be a pushover for so long. The role "pushover" felt comfortable to you for some reason, meeting some need of yours. Where was your courage at that time?

I made a comment to the therapist very early in my personal recovery .... I called myself "a trooper". He asked me to make a list of all the ways my being "a trooper" hurt me. It was a long list.

Being a trooper made me a more difficult spouse, not a less difficult spouse.

"Her outbursts are vile."

No doubt. Whatever she's saying, she is expressing her hurt. Experience the hurt through her vileness. As ugly as it "feels" to you listening, it feels a thousand times worse on the inside of her brain. The hurt explodes, then is expressed as anger. Comment that you can see and hear her hurt (anytime she is angry), and you know it is just the tip of the iceburg of what she's actually feeling. Big empathy is appropriate for big hurt. A frightened wounded animal is very dangerous.

How's your 5 year old?

Pep

PS ... I think being a pushover in marriage is dishonest caring.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>"Man was I a pushover."

It might be useful for you to explore why you chose to be a pushover for so long. The role "pushover" felt comfortable to you for some reason, meeting some need of yours. Where was your courage at that time?

</strong> It was there... but it folded into nothing when she started crying. I alluded to that in my response to ARK. <strong>

I made a comment to the therapist very early in my personal recovery .... I called myself "a trooper". He asked me to make a list of all the ways my being "a trooper" hurt me. It was a long list.

Being a trooper made me a more difficult spouse, not a less difficult spouse.

</strong> what does that make a pushover from a spouse perspective? <strong>

"Her outbursts are vile."

No doubt. Whatever she's saying, she is expressing her hurt. Experience the hurt through her vileness. As ugly as it "feels" to you listening, it feels a thousand times worse on the inside of her brain. The hurt explodes, then is expressed as anger. Comment that you can see and hear her hurt (anytime she is angry), and you know it is just the tip of the iceburg of what she's actually feeling. Big empathy is appropriate for big hurt. A frightened wounded animal is very dangerous.

</strong> OK. Good advice well taken. <strong>

How's your 5 year old?

</strong> He gets sad when I say daddy has to leave. I know the changes hurt him. It doesn't help that she says vile things in front of him sometimes. I downplay that though as much as I can in those moments... It’s also a reason to not be there in her presence. I see him not nearly enough. I'm not changing who I am when I'm with him though. I'm Daddy and I always will be. He tells me he loves me everyday I see him. I make sure he knows Daddy loves him too. That's all I can do right now. At the age of 5... it is my hope that he remembers very little of this. He's a smart one though.

-TMD<strong>


Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>PS ... I think being a pushover in marriage is dishonest caring.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow... ok... guess I can swallow that. Ouch!

-TMD

You don't have to swallow anything. I expressed what "I think" ... based on my life experience.

And I just said... "in my own way". I see the point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks Pep

When was the last time you and your W held each other and both wept?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>When was the last time you and your W held each other and both wept?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NEVER.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Is anyone ever going to tell me how to decipher all these acronyms?