What is an exit affair?

TMD .... have you read any books about affairs?

Exit Affair

Affair Exiters are Conflict Avoiders at heart, but they take it further. One spouse has already decided to leave the marriage and the affair provides the justification. The other partner usually blames the affair rather than looking at how their marriage got to this point. Another "equal opportunity" affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>TMD .... have you read any books about affairs?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No... Just Dr. Harley's online series on Infidelity.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TrulyMadlyDeeply:
<strong>Exit Affair

Affair Exiters are Conflict Avoiders at heart, but they take it further. One spouse has already decided to leave the marriage and the affair provides the justification. The other partner usually blames the affair rather than looking at how their marriage got to this point. Another "equal opportunity" affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmn --- similar.... only I didn't consciously want to end the marriage. I only know I was tired.

Shelle said I was premeditating this A. I guess I was. Never thought of it that way frankly. Wasn't looking for just anybody. I work in Rock - n - Roll... anybodies are a dime a dozen. I was looking for this specific OW from my past. I never really believed I would ever make contact with her. It had been so many years.

Was this some deep-seeded unconsciously executed exit affair?

No... It was definitely more than that. But the similarities are kind of shocking. 2long would find vindication in hearing that coming from me.

ODD... I've been talking to myself for three posts now. I have definitely stepped off the edge.

-TMD

Go home and weep openly in front of your wife.

You've held it in too long.

Do you have the courage to do that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Go home and weep openly in front of your wife.

You've held it in too long.

Do you have the courage to do that?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've done it an handful of times during my time with her. Most recently about three weeks ago. I wept begging forgiveness for what I'd done to her. I wept telling her about the facts of the A that she'd known about but not known details. I wept telling her that I do love this OW and that I know that is terrible to admit but that I'm told to be honest. I wept saying that I don't know where my heart is or if I want to salvage us and that my emotions are too screwed up to be able to make those judgments but that she deserved my effort if she wanted to try to fix this.

Then she wept saying that her interpretation about all that is that I'm coming back to her because my girlfriend just broke up with me. It was that cut and dried for her. Which, BTW, is what she has always done to anything I say. She invalidates everything that comes out of my mouth.

There was some truth to what she said through her own tears. That doesn't throw it ALL out the window though.

My life... My creation apparently.

there was no embrace... let me tell ya. If she'd have embraced me, I believe I would have fallen over dead on the spot from sheer disbelief.

Now she tells me... "don't cry about her in front of me. It makes me sick." The next morning after the goodbye letter from the OW. I sobbed in the shower.... thought the W was outside with my son. Apparently not. Couldn't have stopped the tears anyway. I cried so hard I popped bloodvessels in my eyes. So you see... If I cry in front of my W... she may well shoot me on the spot.

-TMD

-TMD

are you out there....
how was the weekend...?????

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>are you out there....
how was the weekend...?????

ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm here. Ready for words of wisdom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> The weekend was.... odd... took my son to a pretty big air show in this area... my brother-in-law came along. Kinda weird.

I'm out of the house again because I'm unwilling to say that I'll let go of the OW. My W called me on my cell yesterday. She yelled at me for a while and told me her perspective on all this which basically follows through on the invalidation of almost all of my thoughts and concerns over the years. I said "there you go again negating all of my issues with our relationship as nothing more than childish tripe." She responds with "it's called an argument. I said “an argument or a disagreement offers an open ear for the opposing view." "You stopped doing the things that attracted me to you to begin with" "You admit as much." "Then you tell me those things are simply not important after I tell you they are." “That’s not an argument. That’s a shutdown.” “THAT’S been your answer to my problems.”

ARK.. SSDD.. You know the acronym? I'm so tired of it. I honestly don't have any desire to try anymore. I haven't for a while.. Even before the A. I know that's rehash, but there ya go.

I know my W hurts. I DID validate that and I did not diminish it by any stretch.

So how was the weekend? *chuckling* it was status quo. Thank you for asking.

-TMD

WELLLLLLLLL............

Don't you see...you are the one engaging in the SSDD...

Things that you do that are the same...

1. Continue to say that you are unwilling to let go of OW>....What does that mean??
EXACTLY??????????????

Do you see her request as unrealistic...cause I don't...

Does it mean there is this "person" out there...that no matter how much pain and stress the situation brings in to your world...

you are making the decision to keep it in your life...
Will you doom yourself each and every day to live with keeping "it" alive...no matter who or what is right in front of you now....

That you will wear "holding on to the OW" (your words...uwilling to say I will let go"
in some shape or form forever dooming yourself to victim hood????

You told this wife this before you married her...even though you proposed to her and married her....(still not clear on what you thought you were gaining there?????)

If you told her this because you thought you were being honest...and being the truthful...
you never should have married her...

SSDD that you do..

2. You continue to rationalize your own behavior of executing the affair by pointing out wifes own failings....
do you see how this will never work...
while BS may need to look at actions that did not meet spouses needs....no not meeting needs equals responsibility for you AND OW actions....

BS need time to come to reflect and digest things that went on....and can then sometimes begin to see what roles they played in the break down of a marriage...

You can't validate pain on one hand...and then speak of her being responsible for the pain...she's not...

The validaton that you believe is sincere...may not be...change your delivery of it and see where it gets...

If you keep speaking of your affair in context to what she did or didn't do...it will never get any farther than this...
and tmd even if you and her don't reconcile..you two have a child...a child...and you must change your way of argueing and stop power struggling ....for things to be better for him...

and make no mistake..he is better off with two parents in the home...and you stand at having another man becoming his father and parenting him most day.......and some of that because your "unwillingness to let OW go"

is she really worth that..or is your son worth more...cheap shot...maybe..but the stakes are real...as are the statistics of divorce and the effects on children.

OP other person
WS wayward spouse
BS betrayed spouse
OM/OW other man/woman
EN emotional needs...
SF sexual fullfillment
FS financial security..
A? can't remember that one..need for admiration from spouse
LB love busting..disrepectful judgements/attacks
love bank...personal emotional accounts we carry inside of us...that makes us feel cherished and loved
MM/MW married man married wife...usually other person's status...

AIAPITB....ark is a pain in the butt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ARK

TMD, what do you expect of your wife at this point? She is in major defensive mode and anything you say or do is suspect right now. You don't like it and it is exaggerating the communication problems that you had before, but really - she is doing what most BS's do. It seems to me as if you are looking to HER to change, for HER to make it all better. And as long as she keeps reacting to you in defense and in anger, it to you justifies your decision to "not let go of OW". It as if you are waiting until your W has some kind of epiphany, when you really are due for one.

But OW has let YOU go, remember? She and your wife seem to be moving on, setting boundries with you, working thru this mess, while you are digging in your heels and telling your W that you will not "let OW go". What do you hope to accomplish by this? Keep your wife at arm's length? Make sure she always knows that you view her as "2nd best"? She is smart to protect herself until you get this sorted out. IMO, you are mis-directing your hurt at being left by OW to hurt your W even more than you already have.

You know what? Yeah I was a b*tch sometimes in my marriage, yeah I was defensive and we got into a rut and I didn't feel like pulling us out of it. But that in no way justifies my H having an affair. AND - if he had kept telling me he "could not give up the OW" (as you are telling your W) he would have been out of the house as you are. Do you not realize that until you can make your wife feel safe enough to trust you again by letting go of the OW for good that you will not get anywhere in recovery? Even if you don't want to continue the marriage, as ark pointed out, there is a child involved.

Your W is going to be argumentative - get used to it. In her mind you do not have the RIGHT to ask HER for anything at this point.

My H had the nerve to ask for a new truck less than a month after d-day. (He was done & over with the A, while I was just beginning to process it all) I said "f-u, that feels like a REWARD for what you did". He waited over 5 months before I would even talk about a truck and even then I had reservations about signing a 5 year loan.

You really have no idea how strong the anger & hurt is for her. It will take a good deal of time for her to get to a point where she may remember that she had some affect on your feelings pre-A. Don't beat her up for that or continue to point out her faults - she is wounded right now and will react out of pain. In time you may be able to have more constructive conversations.

There are two sides to every story and I would be very interested to hear your W's. As much as I'd like to believe there are H's out there who try and try and try as much as you described that you did in your M, I have never heard of one. It just seems too one-sided.

ark is right on the money with her comments that you are dooming yourself to victim hood by holding on to the OW.

How is IC helping you to deal with the loss of OW? Are you in MC with W?

Shelle

Ok, let me get this right? You tell your wife she is not the love of your life before you married her. Now you tell her that YOUR AFFAIR is her fault because she didn't do everything she used to do in the beginning of the marriage. WOW! And please don't come back with "THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID"! That is exactly what you are saying and that's exactly how your wife heard it.
I would love for me and my husband to do all the things that we used to do when we first got together, gazing into each others eyes all day. But we have kids, careers and bills, that right it's called REALITY! Make no mistake, everyone should make time for those loving things so not to be put on the back burner. But to sit there and say YOU DIDN'T, YOU DIDN'T is a cop out and in no way are you taking any responsibility for the breakdown of your marriage! You have become the WS CLICHE! "I cheated but it's ALL YOUR FAULT"! You are living in a house with NO MIRRORS and you have your blinders on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>WELLLLLLLLL............

Don't you see...you are the one engaging in the SSDD...

Things that you do that are the same...

</strong> OK wait. With the exception of the question below which I will get to, I’m just making my point now… NOW for the first time… I have the guts to make my point and stick to it instead of backing down because maybe doing so hurts my W. Notwithstanding the A. I’ve made my point about how things never worked -- how she always invalidated…. PRE AFFAIR… OK? THAT is no SSDD. Quite the contrary. And yes… That is hurting her even more… and I’m presenting it from the ‘why the marriage broke down’ perspective… not the ‘it’s your fault I cheated’ perspective. I’m really not THAT big a [censored]. I’ve said here on this board and to my W repeatedly that the A was MY choice and was WRONG and that I’m SOLELY responsible for those actions. For clarification… This is NOT SSDD on my part by any stretch. If it were, I would be living in my home with my wife miserably-ever-after at this moment and I wouldn’t be talking to you on the BBS. <strong>

1. Continue to say that you are unwilling to let go of OW>....What does that mean??
EXACTLY??????????????

</strong> OK… THIS part is SSDD to an extent that I’ll clarify. Frankly… I simply love the OW. I cannot go back to my W with that knowledge THIS time. Then, when I proposed, I was too young and extremely stupid to know the sheer scope of what I was doing and feeling. I knew I loved two women. I knew one was out of reach. I knew I could live with this other one the rest of my life. (wry smile) The part that is different though is that I can’t continue in that farce now. The truth I’ve come to accept as reality is that I do love this OW and it’s strong enough to have lasted all these years I NOW understand the magnitude of this and what my decisions back THEN have wrought today.
So it’s not even really that I’m unwilling to let go of the OW… It’s that I can’t. I need to have time to deal with this reality in my heart… time to find a balance, if one exists, between the logical and the emotional. I’m not going to use one to block the other anymore. Look where that got me. I have to actually deal with this now. I can’t do that and expect my W to be OK with that. I wouldn’t be if I were her. <strong>

Do you see her request as unrealistic...cause I don't...

</strong> Not from her perspective NO. But from mine? Dropping this would be SSDD. THAT, as defined above, will NOT happen this time. <strong>

Does it mean there is this "person" out there...that no matter how much pain and stress the situation brings in to your world...

you are making the decision to keep it in your life...
Will you doom yourself each and every day to live with keeping "it" alive...no matter who or what is right in front of you now....

That you will wear "holding on to the OW" (your words...uwilling to say I will let go"
in some shape or form forever dooming yourself to victim hood????

</strong> NO. I don’t consider myself a victim as you put it. I just see this as a reality within myself that I have to deal with. The counselor told me ‘there is going to come a time when you get tired of this.” I didn’t disagree. But I have to deal with it this time. If that means I struggle through it for 6 months… a year.. or more… so be it. Right now… when I consider reconciliation with my W… my mind screams NOOOOOOh. Every time. THAT has to go away. Not sure how to make that happen. And maybe… just maybe…. My wife is right…. Maybe I want to be alone. And NO… that prospect doesn’t scare me. It’s actually a bit seductive to me.<strong>

You told this wife this before you married her...even though you proposed to her and married her....(still not clear on what you thought you were gaining there?????)

If you told her this because you thought you were being honest...and being the truthful...
you never should have married her... SSDD that you do..

</strong> been there… done that… bought the T-shirt.

I married her OK? (laughing) what does saying I shouldn’t have, NOW, gain us in this conversation?<strong>

You continue to rationalize your own behavior of executing the affair by pointing out wifes own failings....

</strong> I can see where she might be confused. You certainly are… so I am not communicating effectively to either of you. Knowing THAT is of value. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I’ll work on being more clear. YIKES!

I certainly do not intent to rationalize my decision to have an A. The facts as I’ve laid them out repeatedly are as follows:

- I contacted OW.
- I met OW
- I carried on A with OW
- I had NO right to do any of these things
- I should have given my W a chance to deal with these desires of mine for the OW prior to my acting on them.
- I was wrong
- I admit I was wrong
- I am solely responsible for MY actions that led to this A.

I fail to see the rationale there.

AGAIN… I’ve made the effort.. Painstakingly to say… lets set the A aside for a moment – not diminishing it’s importance – and talk about how our marriage broke down. The proverbial… ‘lets talk about us’ conversation… <strong>

do you see how this will never work...
while BS may need to look at actions that did not meet spouses needs....no not meeting needs equals responsibility for you AND OW actions....

</strong> Agreed. The neglect on my W part made me ripe for apple picking. I still had to make the decision to take a bite. That work for you? <strong>

BS need time to come to reflect and digest things that went on....and can then sometimes begin to see what roles they played in the break down of a marriage...

You can't validate pain on one hand...and then speak of her being responsible for the pain...she's not...

</strong> You lost me on this one. <strong>

The validaton that you believe is sincere...may not be...change your delivery of it and see where it gets...

</strong> lost me here too… sorry for being so dense. Validation is non-existent in my relationship with my W. Oh wait… you refer to MY validation of her feeling in this? If so, I’ll work on it. <strong>

If you keep speaking of your affair in context to what she did or didn't do...it will never get any farther than this...
and tmd even if you and her don't reconcile..you two have a child...a child...and you must change your way of argueing and stop power struggling ....for things to be better for him...

and make no mistake..he is better off with two parents in the home...and you stand at having another man becoming his father and parenting him most day.......and some of that because your "unwillingness to let OW go"

</strong> have this T-shirt too. Listen – I fully grasp the scope of this from all tangents; including the possibility of another man co-fathering my son. My W loves our son. Her family is very protective. I have no doubt whatsoever that in the end, our son will be protected and loved foremost by ME and my W and her FAMILY. It’s an Italian thing. I would rather he witness true and genuine love between his mother and her husband instead of a ruse which he will inevitable see through as he matures. What damage does THAT ‘stay together for the kids’ mentality do to a child? <strong>

is she really worth that..

</strong> oh GOD yes. Big assumptions there though. <strong>

or is your son worth more...

</strong> I haven’t pulled out the scale. I’m considering all aspects of life in this. It’s hard… very hard. You just don’t say, off the top of your head, one part of this has greater value than another. I know a mother would throw all else out the window and live the life of a VICTIM, as you put it, for the sake of her child. I don’t think that way.

Hmmmn… odd… I’m mapping… didn’t realize it till just now. It’s something the OW does. I made fun of her for it. Now I find myself compiling ALL the data and mapping every potential outcome over and over and over, each time adding this nuance or that to make sure I didn’t miss anything. <strong>

cheap shot...maybe..but the stakes are real...as are the statistics of divorce and the effects on children.

</strong> OK. Gotcha. Has anyone compiled the same stats on the effects of a loveless marriage on children? <strong>

OP other person
WS wayward spouse
BS betrayed spouse
OM/OW other man/woman
EN emotional needs...
SF sexual fullfillment
FS financial security..
A? can't remember that one..need for admiration from spouse
LB love busting..disrepectful judgements/attacks
love bank...personal emotional accounts we carry inside of us...that makes us feel cherished and loved
MM/MW married man married wife...usually other person's status...

</strong> THANK YOU -- wow… now I get it! <strong>

AIAPITB....ark is a pain in the butt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
ARK</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks ARK. There’s some rehash in there but you came in late. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ShelleBelle66:
<strong>TMD, what do you expect of your wife at this point? She is in major defensive mode and anything you say or do is suspect right now. You don't like it and it is exaggerating the communication problems that you had before, but really - she is doing what most BS's do. It seems to me as if you are looking to HER to change, for HER to make it all better. And as long as she keeps reacting to you in defense and in anger, it to you justifies your decision to "not let go of OW". It as if you are waiting until your W has some kind of epiphany, when you really are due for one.

</strong> (Laughing loudly) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have had the epiphany of a lifetime! <strong>

But OW has let YOU go, remember? She and your wife seem to be moving on, setting boundries with you, working thru this mess, while you are digging in your heels and telling your W that you will not "let OW go". What do you hope to accomplish by this? Keep your wife at arm's length? Make sure she always knows that you view her as "2nd best"? She is smart to protect herself until you get this sorted out. IMO, you are mis-directing your hurt at being left by OW to hurt your W even more than you already have.

</strong> This is worth pondering. <strong>

You know what? Yeah I was a b*tch sometimes in my marriage, yeah I was defensive and we got into a rut and I didn't feel like pulling us out of it. But that in no way justifies my H having an affair. AND - if he had kept telling me he "could not give up the OW" (as you are telling your W) he would have been out of the house as you are. Do you not realize that until you can make your wife feel safe enough to trust you again by letting go of the OW for good that you will not get anywhere in recovery? Even if you don't want to continue the marriage, as ark pointed out, there is a child involved.

</strong> Yes. And Yes. And Yes <strong>

Your W is going to be argumentative - get used to it. In her mind you do not have the RIGHT to ask HER for anything at this point.

</strong> Herein lies the rub. The only way I would ever consider going back would be drastic change on her part. I guess that would be an impasse. <strong>

My H had the nerve to ask for a new truck less than a month after d-day. (He was done & over with the A, while I was just beginning to process it all) I said "f-u, that feels like a REWARD for what you did". He waited over 5 months before I would even talk about a truck and even then I had reservations about signing a 5 year loan.

</strong> Are you my wife? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> wierd... My car just blew up a week ago... why? I drive the S%^& mobile while she gets the luxury. no complaints... just truth.. I tend toward the practical when it comes to finances. So I went to the dealership and dropped her leased car and bought two new cars. luxury for her - practical for me.

I don't have any issues there. From a strictly financial perspective - I'm responsible for my son... and so by default for his mother. That's my life as I see it. No biggy. <strong>

You really have no idea how strong the anger & hurt is for her. It will take a good deal of time for her to get to a point where she may remember that she had some affect on your feelings pre-A. Don't beat her up for that or continue to point out her faults - she is wounded right now and will react out of pain. In time you may be able to have more constructive conversations.

</strong> I'm getting a good feel for it. And I will take your advice to heart. <strong>

There are two sides to every story and I would be very interested to hear your W's. As much as I'd like to believe there are H's out there who try and try and try as much as you described that you did in your M, I have never heard of one. It just seems too one-sided.

</strong> Fair enough. <strong>

ark is right on the money with her comments that you are dooming yourself to victim hood by holding on to the OW.

How is IC helping you to deal with the loss of OW?

</strong>It's not. <strong>

Are you in MC with W?

</strong> Nope. She wont do it till I let go. That may be a while. <strong>

Shelle</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Shelle..

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by trying2_4give:
<strong>Ok, let me get this right? You tell your wife she is not the love of your life before you married her. Now you tell her that YOUR AFFAIR is her fault because she didn't do everything she used to do in the beginning of the marriage. WOW! And please don't come back with "THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID"! That is exactly what you are saying and that's exactly how your wife heard it.
I would love for me and my husband to do all the things that we used to do when we first got together, gazing into each others eyes all day. But we have kids, careers and bills, that right it's called REALITY! Make no mistake, everyone should make time for those loving things so not to be put on the back burner. But to sit there and say YOU DIDN'T, YOU DIDN'T is a cop out and in no way are you taking any responsibility for the breakdown of your marriage! You have become the WS CLICHE! "I cheated but it's ALL YOUR FAULT"! You are living in a house with NO MIRRORS and you have your blinders on.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmn... No small amount of angst there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-TMD

I have the guts to make my point and stick to it instead of backing down because maybe doing so hurts my W. Notwithstanding the A. I’ve made my point about how things never worked -- how she always invalidated…. PRE AFFAIR… OK? THAT is no SSDD.

I honestly hear you and believe you...my point is that what you are saying is not necessarily incorrect...my point is she can't hear you right now...because in her mind all she can hear...is what she did wrong....equals your affair...and even though that is not what YOU are saying it is what she...and most BS HEAR...you are toturing yourself and powerstruggling to be heard...understandable...but it is doomed to fail...that's where my ssdd comes in..on your part...keep trying to deliver a message that is to doomed ears...it is as the borg on star trek.... would tell you...futile (you started the whole spock theme..don't blame me...)

I hear you tried for a long long time..
I believe you...(I see dead people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Deliver your message and let her wrestle those demons...she can't hear you....

lost me here too… sorry for being so dense. Validation is non-existent in my relationship with my W. Oh wait… you refer to MY validation of her feeling in this? If so, I’ll work on it.

What I am saying here is that even though you know and realize your affair has caused her pain...she won't believe you when you also speak of all she did "wrong"..and again...she was wrong to neglect you...BUT the message gets lost in brain...all she hears is you saying her fault..EVEN when it's not what you are saying...

I would rather he witness true and genuine love between his mother and her husband instead of a ruse which he will inevitable see through as he matures. What damage does THAT ‘stay together for the kids’ mentality do to a child?

Sorry not buying it...to me it's pop-psyche bull pucky....rationalization....

OK. Gotcha. Has anyone compiled the same stats on the effects of a loveless marriage on children?

children want their parents to stay together....
your responsiblility is to create an environment of stability, respect, nurturing to all parties within the home....

And believe it or not...I am not a no divorce no matter what type of gal...

I haven’t pulled out the scale. I’m considering all aspects of life in this. It’s hard… very hard. You just don’t say, off the top of your head, one part of this has greater value than another. I know a mother would throw all else out the window and live the life of a VICTIM, as you put it, for the sake of her child. I don’t think that way.

just perhaps till their much older..the chaos and feeling of loss placed on a young child is very sad...
the fear that someone will not love them enough to stary...
the fear that it is their fault..if they did this or that better...then parents would not have left them.
the increased opportunity for more adults to enter and leave there lives as the grownup go through boyfriend and girlfriend....

kids don't want their parents happy..that is a huge misconception that they give a rats behind about our happiness....
.God knows my three could care less if I was ever happy and there are days they prove it...
....just as long as their needs are met instantly each time....that's what they want..

AGAIN… I’ve made the effort.. Painstakingly to say… lets set the A aside for a moment – not diminishing it’s importance – and talk about how our marriage broke down. The proverbial… ‘lets talk about us’ conversation…

again my warning is this is not the time.

NOT that you are incorrect in feeling that way...

If it were, I would be living in my home with my wife miserably-ever-after at this moment and I wouldn’t be talking to you on the BBS.

living miserably is a choice....try to wrap your mind around that notion a little at a time...
it is true....
little steps in changing your thought process...

ARK
(bet you're wishing I was at the dentist today... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>
I honestly hear you and believe you...my point is that what you are saying is not necessarily incorrect...my point is she can't hear you right now...because in her mind all she can hear...is what she did wrong....equals your affair...and even though that is not what YOU are saying it is what she...and most BS HEAR...you are toturing yourself and powerstruggling to be heard...understandable...but it is doomed to fail...that's where my ssdd comes in..on your part...keep trying to deliver a message that is to doomed ears...it is as the borg on star trek.... would tell you...futile (you started the whole spock theme..don't blame me...)</strong>

Funny... so I did... I get what you're saying. just ain't easy is all... on either side... And I'm supposed to forget about my needs now as punishment for my sins. Call me selfish. I'm just not doing that anymore ARK. The honest truth. I refuse to lay down even if I am the A$$ in all this.

<strong>I hear you tried for a long long time..
I believe you...(I see dead people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Deliver your message and let her wrestle those demons...she can't hear you....

</strong> so basically... she has to figure out if she can forgive me... on her own time... and she has to get over the fact that I'm not letting go of this feeling inside.. on her own time... I'm supposed to take the abuse from her because any and all of it is warranted. UGGHhh!

ARK... I could see all that if my scenario consisted of ME feeling GUILTY for the A and WANTED more than anything else to have my W BACK. That is NOT my scenario. So what gives?<strong>

What I am saying here is that even though you know and realize your affair has caused her pain...she won't believe you when you also speak of all she did "wrong"..and again...she was wrong to neglect you...BUT the message gets lost in brain...all she hears is you saying her fault..EVEN when it's not what you are saying...

</strong> I get it... there's not much I can do to resolve that particular issue accept keep my mouth shut and wait. <strong>

I would rather he witness true and genuine love between his mother and her husband instead of a ruse which he will inevitable see through as he matures. What damage does THAT ‘stay together for the kids’ mentality do to a child?

Sorry not buying it...to me it's pop-psyche bull pucky....rationalization....</strong>

Then I'm a natural Pop-Psyche kinda dude. I've yet to actually hear a counselor say something of significant content to me beyond... 'well, your 50 minutes is up when do you want to meet again.' <strong>

children want their parents to stay together....
your responsiblility is to create an environment of stability, respect, nurturing to all parties within the home....

</strong> OK there's room for improvement there. <strong>

And believe it or not...I am not a no divorce no matter what type of gal...

</strong> I believe you. I see YOU after all, Bruce. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <strong>


just perhaps till their much older..the chaos and feeling of loss placed on a young child is very sad...
the fear that someone will not love them enough to stary...
the fear that it is their fault..if they did this or that better...then parents would not have left them.
the increased opportunity for more adults to enter and leave there lives as the grownup go through boyfriend and girlfriend....

</strong> All understood and taken to heart and even a few things I'd not pondered before. Thank You.<strong>

kids don't want their parents happy..

</strong> Bull Pucky... to coin a phrase Maybe the toddlers and the pre-schoolers.. but they don't have the capacity to understand those concepts beyond the smile that comes with the ice cream cone.

The older ones SEE it and GET it and use parental discord to their advantage. I prefer to not encourage that or the myriad other nuances that come into play. My own sibling's kids have given me this kind of feedback in the not to distant past.<strong>

that is a huge misconception that they give a rats behind about our happiness....
.God knows my three could care less if I was ever happy and there are days they prove it...
....just as long as their needs are met instantly each time....that's what they want..

</strong> I think kids are a bit more attuned to life than that. I enjoyed the time I spent with my parents. They loved each other... It was obvious to me... I NOTICED... I laughed at them when they 'smooched' in the kitchen... or when dad would grab mom and dance a silly jig... That was great stuff... Those memories are forever etched in my childhood memories. So is my kid doomed to a mom and dad going through the motions? I don't get what is so 'pop-psych' about this. <strong>

AGAIN… I’ve made the effort.. Painstakingly to say… lets set the A aside for a moment – not diminishing it’s importance – and talk about how our marriage broke down. The proverbial… ‘lets talk about us’ conversation…

again my warning is this is not the time.

NOT that you are incorrect in feeling that way...

</strong> OK.<strong>

living miserably is a choice....try to wrap your mind around that notion a little at a time...
it is true....
little steps in changing your thought process...

</strong> Too True. A choice to no longer be miserable is one I'm contemplating. The catch here in this discussion, which BTW -- I get, is that you're trying to get me to adjust these thought processes within the scope of my marriage. Truth is, I am so far outside that box now -- I've forgotten what the address is.

ARK
(bet you're wishing I was at the dentist today... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all... I've found more value in this than counseling by far.

I'm thankful for 2Long for helping me see how the OM is hurting.

I'm thankful for PEP for her obvious compassion.

I'm thankful for tryng24gv for the rants that let me know this is real and I am a jerk.

I'm thankful for Shelle for her passionate defense of my wife and honest effort to help me see her pain.

I'm especially thankful for you for your tenacity and your powerful, non-confrontational delivery.

Sincerely Grateful to Each Of You,

-TMD

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

oops... Moderator please dump this post. Thanks much.. -TMD

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: TrulyMadlyDeeply ]</small>

in all honesty I am not telling you to take anything and suck it in...
I am telling you to change your approach...

set limits and terminate extremely volatile interactions...

they serve no purpose, waste time and avoid the real issues...
and though they serve their place it is short lived and if people get stuck in just beating eachother up nothing is resolved...

you are not to forget your needs...you need to find a new way to communicate them...fair...maybe not..but oh well that is life....

no matter how you change from this...
even if you become too tired to work at resolution...it is your actions (it is all of our actions not just yours) that define us...your words are falling on deaf ears....change your words AND your actions...

her abuse is not warranted...it is understandable to a point...but it does reach a point where is serves no one...not herself, not the child and not you...

talk more globally...talk about what you see has having value in a relationship...and how you realize that it takes all involved to work at it...

so basically... she has to figure out if she can forgive me... on her own time...
DING DING DING...YOU WIN A PRIZE...Can't control or change her....or anyone..only you.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and she has to get over the fact that I'm not letting go of this feeling inside..
not buying that one..your feeling inside...when it comes to be carried only because it is really all you know...and the unknown is scarey to all of us...even you....you believe you have to carry that feeling..but you don't...

... I'm supposed to take the abuse from her because any and all of it is warranted. UGGHhh!
don't think that.....but don't give up on her just because she is angry now...and don't give up on her ability to change...even though you don't believe it....

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>in all honesty I am not telling you to take anything and suck it in...
I am telling you to change your approach...

set limits and terminate extremely volatile interactions...

they serve no purpose, waste time and avoid the real issues...
and though they serve their place it is short lived and if people get stuck in just beating eachother up nothing is resolved...

</strong> OK. here's the deal. I could come up with a million reasons why that won't work either. This is so frustrating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I'll see how it goes on this. <strong>

you are not to forget your needs...you need to find a new way to communicate them...fair...maybe not..but oh well that is life....

</strong> clean out of ideas on that front. <strong>

no matter how you change from this...
even if you become too tired to work at resolution...it is your actions (it is all of our actions not just yours) that define us...your words are falling on deaf ears....change your words AND your actions...

</strong> OK. again.. not a task I relish. but OK <strong>

her abuse is not warranted...it is understandable to a point...but it does reach a point where is serves no one...not herself, not the child and not you...

talk more globally...talk about what you see has having value in a relationship...and how you realize that it takes all involved to work at it...

</strong> remember the T-shirt collection I've amassed? <strong>

[b]so basically... she has to figure out if she can forgive me... on her own time...
DING DING DING...YOU WIN A PRIZE...Can't control or change her....or anyone..only you.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

and she has to get over the fact that I'm not letting go of this feeling inside..
not buying that one..your feeling inside...when it comes to be carried only because it is really all you know...and the unknown is scarey to all of us...even you....you believe you have to carry that feeling..but you don't...

</strong> It's not that I'm carrying it out of fear... I don't get that... I mean from the sheer scope of the time I've held this... I don't get the fear aspect... BUT... I DO get having to deal with this feeling now... and needing time to do that. I think this is the first time I've had to face these things head on. I'm doing it right this time... even if it kills me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <strong>

... I'm supposed to take the abuse from her because any and all of it is warranted. UGGHhh!
don't think that.....but don't give up on her just because she is angry now...and don't give up on her ability to change...even though you don't believe it....

</strong> SSDD. Insanity by your own words. Not going there. I gave up on her ability to change a long long time ago ARK. Her anger now imparts a new vitrioclic persona that endears itself to me daily. NOT!

Truth is... If she want's ME.... she HAS to figure it out on her own and THEN fight to get ME back. I know that's gonna hack off the bunch of you. But I'm cutting to the chase here. This IS where I am in all this. I won't try anymore to fix this thing.

I would need to see a significant change for the better to even care to try. I know her. I know hell will freeze before that day comes. So be it.

Your definition of Insanity struck a chord of truth like no other in all of this dialog. I've changed it all... I'm dealing with that which has been suppressed and suppressing that which has afforded the relationship nothing over years.

ark[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks,

-TMD