Well - to begin with, you have completely side-stepped the main point - which was: do you believe in predestination? You stated your belief that you and the other woman might be "meant for each other" in those terms.

I am simply pointing out to you the inconsistencies in the way that you think, and in what you are saying. I don't doubt that you believe in what you say you feel.

LIR

And as to faith - "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".

I don't see how your desire for a life of happiness with OW fits this definition of faith - you are neither sure of what you hope for, neither are you yourself certain of what you do not see. You do not, in fact, have faith that the OW is your "real" life partner, you are simply afraid to let go of the idea that she might be. There's a big difference between that and your faith in God. Therefore, I'm afraid I cannot open the aperture any wider.

Take care, TMD, I really do wish you well.

LIR

oops - double post.

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

What if I'm supposed to be with the OW? ...

How do you know? How do I know? How does anyone know that with such certainty?

This is the crux of it all is it not...
And I am coming to believe that you TMD...are more sure of your self and feel more in control of yourself when wrestling only with this thought...rather than really acting on it...

That you have in the past had opportunities to make this a reality and have not done so...
And even now you stand at a point where your wife does not want to reconcile with you...in theory you are free...and yet still you do not make that move...

I think that you are more comfortable with wrestling with and toying with the fantasy alone...

I believe this is where your own self sabotage of your marriage plays in....
I think you are one of those people based on your recent post of wanting truth and absolutes about things that no truth and absolutes really exist...

There are no garuntees with relationships...
not one comes with one....

how do i know if I let this woman go I won't ruin my life...
how do i know if I leave my wife that isn't a big mistake...

you don't know...
none of us know...

So did you sabotage your marriage while at the same time sabotage your affair...to have in your life the ability to always just be wrestling and struggling...because accepting and letting happen is to scarey for you???

Did you feel in more control having both women in their compartments...fitting in to you life of avioiding facing these questions that really have no answer.

did you feel better when there was no choice and it just was..

I'm not attacking ...really I am asking you...

Are you in greater crisis right now...because you became comfortable living with the thought that while you betrayed your wife...she would always be there fighting for you???

Your very first post...perhaps the one that holds the real question and concern perhaps the most honest one to the root of problem...before everyone starts on different paths...speaks clearly of you three times stating your wife no longer wants you...

Was this really part of the plan..or was the plan to keep this going forever...raise you son with the wife..keep other woman on the side....her with her family...

and now you are lost...
is that what this is about...

huh huh huh huh??????????????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I have a two year old...I am good at begging...

Has there NEVER been a recorded union between WS and OP that turned out happily ever after? Really? NEVER?

My answer in no...that love bought at such a high price of others pain in my opinion is always tainted....not because of trumped up religious guilt...but because the character of both people acted and did things that aren't very likable and are selfish...

Love is easy...love the emotion really easy...liking someone is hard...
and it's hard to like oneself
and it's hard to like someone who has done the same things that we don't like about ourselves...

can a op/ws be together...yep they do it allll the time...but their relationship came at such a price..that it will only be a reflection of the real thing....

I think a part of you knows that deep down...
because you and her could be together if you were willing to settle for that reflection...

I don't think you are...
that's my opinion tmd...it can be as way off as the moon is....

well that was a mouthful!!!!!!!!
ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>Well - to begin with, you have completely side-stepped the main point - which was: do you believe in predestination? You stated your belief that you and the other woman might be "meant for each other" in those terms.

I am simply pointing out to you the inconsistencies in the way that you think, and in what you are saying. I don't doubt that you believe in what you say you feel.

LIR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a hopless romantic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I may very well believe in predestination. I just never thought of it in those terms.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>And as to faith - "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".

I don't see how your desire for a life of happiness with OW fits this definition of faith - you are neither sure of what you hope for, neither are you yourself certain of what you do not see. You do not, in fact, have faith that the OW is your "real" life partner, you are simply afraid to let go of the idea that she might be. There's a big difference between that and your faith in God. Therefore, I'm afraid I cannot open the aperture any wider.

Take care, TMD, I really do wish you well.

LIR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knew you would fall into that snare.

I made no comparison to my faith in God. I compared the simplicity of that faith. It was groundwork for the juxtaposition against blind emotion. I guess you bypassed MY point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your definition fits well.

I am SURE of what I hope for... that's an easy one. I am certain of my heart in all of this. That's easy too.

More on that with ARK

Best wishes to you as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And thank you.

-TMD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong>
And I am coming to believe that you TMD...are more sure of your self and feel more in control of yourself when wrestling only with this thought...rather than really acting on it...

</strong> Laughing. Never thought of that... Funny. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <strong>

That you have in the past had opportunities to make this a reality and have not done so...
And even now you stand at a point where your wife does not want to reconcile with you...in theory you are free...and yet still you do not make that move...

</strong> Do you suggest moving with such speed? If we cannot know a thing, then whats the point in podering it? Is that the box on which you stand? Interesting.<strong>

I think that you are more comfortable with wrestling with and toying with the fantasy alone...
</strong>
Ahhh that word again. No argument though. yeah... I'm a bit timid on the follow through. So established. <strong>

I believe this is where your own self sabotage of your marriage plays in....
I think you are one of those people based on your recent post of wanting truth and absolutes about things that no truth and absolutes really exist...

There are no garuntees with relationships...
not one comes with one....

how do i know if I let this woman go I won't ruin my life...
how do i know if I leave my wife that isn't a big mistake...

you don't know...
none of us know...

</strong> Fatalistic. not sure how I feel about that statement you just made here. <strong>

So did you sabotage your marriage while at the same time sabotage your affair...to have in your life the ability to always just be wrestling and struggling...because accepting and letting happen is to scarey for you???

</strong> Crying right now... Laughing crying... there ya go punching me in the nose again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <strong>

Did you feel in more control having both women in their compartments...fitting in to you life of avioiding facing these questions that really have no answer.

did you feel better when there was no choice and it just was..

I'm not attacking ...really I am asking you...

Are you in greater crisis right now...because you became comfortable living with the thought that while you betrayed your wife...she would always be there fighting for you???

</strong>Absolutely not! -laughing again- I would never have done any of this... never have walked the path if my wife had shown an inkling of a fight. Just once. I'm not blaming her for my actions... sheesh! The demise of our relation ship is what it is. It didn't need any help. <strong>

Your very first post...perhaps the one that holds the real question and concern perhaps the most honest one to the root of problem...before everyone starts on different paths...speaks clearly of you three times stating your wife no longer wants you...

Was this really part of the plan..or was the plan to keep this going forever...raise you son with the wife..keep other woman on the side....her with her family...

</strong> Holy crap! *feigned shock* the thought has occurred to me. That is one of many scenarios. Problem is... I made the horibble miscalculation of telling my wife about the affair. <strong>

and now you are lost...
is that what this is about...

huh huh huh huh??????????????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I have a two year old...I am good at begging...

</strong> mine's 5.. he's good at begging! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Most of my hesitation on any action is more about him than anything I imagine. I just got off the phone with him. He wanted to know when I'm coming back to live in the house. I told him I don't know... I then said "you remember the talk we had about this?" he said he did. I asked him to tell me why I'm not living at home right now. He said "Because you and mommy can't live together right now." I said he was right. I also said that we would figure this out and that "no matter where daddy lives... Mommy and Daddy both love you very much."

You know what that is? Tragedy. Yes. But it is groundwork for change. Action instead of vacillation. <strong>

Has there NEVER been a recorded union between WS and OP that turned out happily ever after? Really? NEVER?

My answer in no...that love bought at such a high price of others pain in my opinion is always tainted....not because of trumped up religious guilt...but because the character of both people acted and did things that aren't very likable and are selfish...

Love is easy...love the emotion really easy...liking someone is hard...
and it's hard to like oneself
and it's hard to like someone who has done the same things that we don't like about ourselves...

can a op/ws be together...yep they do it allll the time...but their relationship came at such a price..that it will only be a reflection of the real thing....

I think a part of you knows that deep down...
because you and her could be together if you were willing to settle for that reflection...

I don't think you are...
that's my opinion tmd...it can be as way off as the moon is....

</strong> I've said it before and I'll say it again. I may end up alone in all this. I'm becoming more amenable to that possibility every day. The OW talked about her integrity. she quoted a greek philosopher... Heraclitus I believe. The gist was that in the end, will your integrity withstand the light of day?

My integrity..? Her Integrity? Settle for anything again? That and my amazing son is what this is about.

-TMD
[/qb]

well that was a mouthful!!!!!!!!
ARK[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

As with my faith, I have the basic belief that God is real and he sent his son to die for our sins so that I might, through his sacrifice, have a place in heaven where Christ sits as intercessor to mankind at the right hand of his Father. This is Faith at its simplest. It is my faith and the extent of my religion. By definition it is blind and without proof. I accept that much at face value. ..odd choice of words... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So then open the aperture a bit wider to see how I have this same faith in what I have felt through the years for this woman.

You knew I would fall into that snare? What snare? I think you made the comparison as clear as day.

You just get nasty when someone sees through you. I'm not a hopeless romantic. Romantic yes, but hopeless is a dismal place where I do not want to live.

I bypassed YOUR point? And what was that exactly? That you are free to believe in a fantasy if you feel like it? Fine. Have fun there.

Anyway, I'm off to bed - got a busy day tomorrow. See ya.

LIR

<small>[ August 05, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Hi there TMD,

I don't post often, am here and there, don't get to MB much recently, but your post caught my eye. Hope you allow me to drop in for a post or two, hope it's not a "private party"!

Anyhow, you remind me of another poster who frequented here a while ago. SNL was his name, and he tried to take the situations of being a WS and examine it using most of the same lingo, angles and attitude that you seem to be undertaking.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with doing that, I'm not going to attack you, if not applaud you for at least being willing to look.

I don't have the time to review everything in all your posts, I'm sorry. So let me focus on one or two key themes you seem to have on the go...

You said: "I hear everyone say that what I hold on to with the OW is nothing but fantasy. How do you know? How do I know?"

Let me ask a couple of questions:

1. Were you in love with your W once?
2. Did your feelings change?
3. Why did they change?

Ok, so if at this point you're appealing to "fate" or "destiny" we might as well stop now. No-one can argue against the supernatural in this.

Did they change because of things you did? She did? You did not do? She did not do?
Sounds like you've been here long enough to grasp the concepts... the "pyhsics" of relationships - not just the "chemistry".

So now you take all this wonderful knowledge and apply it to your life with OW, to find out if it's fantasy or not... Hmmm... What does that buy you? You're now sitting across the kitchen table from someone who helped you disrespect your W and M. You have to deal with the same problems you and your W had to - and plenty more. You end up trading in for someone who makes you feel all tingly - but then again, your W did too once, I'm sure. If not, then you demonstrate a poor ability to engage effectively in relationships in which case you have no business in them until you fix yourself, frankly!!

So then the years truck on, you grow comfortable with OW (any OW), settle down in the country-side, go to dancing lessons once a week, have 2.3 children, etc. What now? Do you get to think of those "good times" when you were sneaking around with her? Do you get to say, "Geeze, it was SO worth it, wasn't it honey? All the pain we caused - at least we're together?" Or maybe, "I'm sure glad I waffled over you, hon. It really came clear for me that we were meant for each other when ex-W finally told me to #@!$-off." Does that sound like a fun conversation? There's plenty more, I'm sure.

I'm not trying to be difficult - just offer something to think about.

I'll leave you with a quote from "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman...

"People may find ways to explain and justify wrecking a marriage, but the guilty participants can't explain it away so easily to themselves; they know just who was doing what to whom. The very things that worked so well in the affair - the romantic abandon, the sexual adventurism, the expertise at deceit, the delight in breaking the rules - work badly in marriage. As a patient once said, 'Of course I'm in love with her. I screwed up my marriage and messed up my kids for her, but I'm afraid to *marry* her. Even when I get my divorce, how can I marry her? How can a guy marry a woman who screws around with married men?'"

"Sorry Shelle… I know my W is hurting. But so am I… I know I know…. Cry me a river… right?"TMD, I'm really not that cold... I feel for your struggle. I've been thru it with my own H.

I am someone who believes completely in love. Have you not noticed my tag line? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
It's how I have lived my life - I instinctively follow my heart.
I met my husband while on vacation to another state, came home a week later and announced that I was quitting my job and moving to where he was - stationed in the military at the time.
I did just that, and we were married after knowing each other for only four months.

I took risks to be with whom my heart told me I should be.
What has kept YOU from being a risk-taker?
You mentioned several times that you "screwed up" all those years ago with the OW and she got away - what's the story there?

You ask - "What if I belong with OW?"
My answer - "then you already would BE with OW"
If it was some kind of "destiny" then it would have happened already, and it wouldn't have to be forced on either part, no matter the circumstances.

You know the old saying -
"If you love something, set it free.
If it comes back to you, it's yours.
If it doesn't, it never was."

This OW has not come back to you... you sought her out, you brought her back into your life.
She is not yours... she is married to someone else and is continuing that relationship.

You speak of not wanting to ruin your "second chance" with OW.
It doesn't look like there is much of a chance with OW.
What am I missing?

I understand the intense pull of a first love(er).
I have dealt with that myself (no A) and with my H's A.

Talk about second chances - my H was in a grocery store and hears a voice from his past calling his name... it's OW. She's halfway across the country from where they grew up and just happens to be in THAT store at the EXACT moment that my H is?
Now to me - that is KARMA.

And I agree - running into her DID have a "cosmic" purpose.
He got to stop wondering about this "lost love" and revisit his youth.

He did take her sudden appearance as some kind of "sign" - and I think that partially allowed him to justify having the A in his fogged brain.

But when all was said and done?.....
He quickly realized the short time he had with her in their hormone-crazed teens cannot hold a candle to what he & I have experienced as adults in our 15 years together.

Now I'm NOT saying that you must "beg forgiveness" and run back to your wife and do whatever it takes to make it work with her. I believe you when you say you may end up alone, and I don't disagree that it might be what's best for you at this time. It might be a good growth experience for you to be alone after being married so young and so long. Did you go right from home, to college, to marriage?

I just hope that you are not giving the OW more credit than she deserves for her place in your life. She had a place in your life, and she always will have a place in your heart - no one would tell you that is wrong. Just don't let it overshadow the time you have spent with your W.
C'mon - think of the BEST day(s) with your W, maybe your wedding day, day of son's birth, etc... OW cannot compare with that history, the sharing of adult life experiences. Other than your first love and sexual experience, really - what did you two experience of REAL LIFE together?
That's the stuff that makes a marriage, not the teenage hormones.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Shelle

<small>[ August 07, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>

Shelle,

That was phenominally stated. Thank You for making this even harder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My brother told me to write a story... I like to write fiction... he says... "Write a non-fiction story about you and 'W' a story about your lives together and focus on the good stuff. Leave the OW out of the story even if there're parts where she's there... leave it out." He said it would take time and some research.... and i might even have to ask 'W' to help with it... he said if I do that... then read it... I'll know the right thing to do.

I talked to my wife yesterday on the phone. We were always better at talking on the phone than we were in person... I still don't get that... but we talked... she wanted to know again what my plans were regarding our separation etc.... Am I moving ahead with the dissolution...? Am I selling the house...? Am I moving to another state to be with OW...?

I said... "OK... Look... You have the uncanny ability to NEVER forgive or let anything go. Let's make some assumptions for the sake of the discussion. Notwithstanding our past which has problems that led to our marriage turning into a routine that had very little... I daresay nothing to do with each other. I come back... I drop the OW forever... never look back again... You WILL... because I know you... bring the subject of my infidelity up at every step along the way that I do something that makes you steam up."

She didn't deny that. I know her well enough to know this about her for certain. Furthermore... she has told every family member on her side what I've done to her... and though some of them I have been in contact with and they are cordial... the majority of her family operates the same way she does.

I told her "regardless of whether I deserve that kind of purgatory for the rest of my life, it's not a life I relish." I said "I cannot see any form of a continued life together that doesn't involve me living as the slave of former transgression." She didn't deny that one either.

Her price for return is too high.

She says “what about you? You come in the house and you look different... the look on your face is one I don't know... It looks like you hate me... it looks angry... it looks like you resent me..."

I'm stunned by this revelation... and reply “Hate? You of all people, despite my actions in recent days, should know I don't hate... I'm scared of you quite frankly... I come in and the look you see on my face is a wall I've had to build because whenever I walk into the house I'm waiting for the onslaught of expletives and the verbal attack that always comes. If I walk in seemingly happy.. You deride me because you think it's because of the OW or that I'm pleased in some perverse way that I'm hurting you. What the hell kind of look should I have on my face!"

Shelle - she didn't deny my concerns about the future. She knows I know how she operates. I've observed it for 15 years with others in her life. So it's my fault that I will be the primary focus of that inability to forgive. Fine... I can't change that. She said the only reason she would ever take me back is for the sake of our son. I said... "That would never be enough... and I would never put our son through a life in that home."

Yeah-- many years of real life with my W versus the few years with the OW as adolescents and young adults. You make very sound points. So does J.R.

I still do love my W. I stopped trying to find ways to make her want to love me. When I look at her now I see the woman I loved when we married. She's in there behind all the pain and hate for the thing I've done. I was too young and in too much a hurry to observe my relationship with my fiancé... didn't see the signs that for her it was about being loved... not about loving... you know she doesn't embrace me? I hold her and she folds up inside my arms. No touching... No Caressing... For a while I thought it was cute. Then I needed some love too. These things won’t change. She states unequivocally that she is not the initiator.. the aggressor - if you will.

I have sat for hours trying to think of the good stuff.. the good times... the happy times... though there are moments to recall... they are few... the longest run of happiness for us both was when we went on a cruise together. THAT was fun. That even beat the honeymoon. One whole uninterrupted week out of 15 years! Truly sickening.

Shelle - I'm making the comparisons and I see the fantasy versus reality from the chronological perspective. I do.

I see the conversations at the kitchen table as you present them too J.R. I just don't see them in the dark and ominous light in which you cast them.

LIR... I'll acquiesce to your interpretation of my life of fantasy. You are like my wife in that way... It won't matter how many ways I tell you a thing, you’ve decided what is going on in my mind. I'll be damned if I can convince you otherwise. My life story.. Extremely frustrating. That’s where ARK's words on the topic of insanity "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results" come in. Can't go back to that way of life. It's another reason I gave up and pretty much quit talking. -TMD quit talking? I know... hard to believe. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So I agree to disagree, LIR, and I'm shutting up on that one.

You know what my fantasy is? That the OW had been happy in her relationship and not had the need to call me 6 years ago to see if maybe I was still there… and that I’d been happy in my relationship and not felt the need to track her down after that conversation with her. I fantasize about never having thought of her again with any longing because I was so complete in my love for my wife and my wife in hers for me. Wouldn’t that have been a story to write.

-TMD

"Thank You for making this even harder."
Anytime, TMD, Anytime... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"I talked to my wife yesterday on the phone. We were always better at talking on the phone than we were in person... I still don't get that...
It's safer, no body language to distract you, either of you can end it just by hanging up.
Probably the best way for you to communicate these days.
My H & I did the opposite - we stayed in the same house, same room, same bed.
Our son spent alot of last summer with relatives.
We talked more (and fought more) than we have our entire marriage.
We are both conflict avoiders by nature, so it was excruciating at times, but we "reconnected" in a way we had not felt about each other since we were first married.

".. but we talked... she wanted to know again what my plans were regarding our separation etc.... Am I moving ahead with the dissolution...? Am I selling the house...? Am I moving to another state to be with OW...?
I can totally identify with this... A spouse having an A takes all the choices away from the BS.
Your W is looking to you for direction since you made the choices that have put you in your current predicament.

She's looking to you for signs of which way you are going, where she stands in your life, since she can no longer be sure of her status as your wife.
She probably feels she does not know you anymore - she can no longer safely predict the behavior of this man whom she has spent so much of her life with.
She now knows at a gutteral level that you are capable of keeping secrets from her... what else might you be hiding from her?
It is a very surreal experience.

"I said... "OK... Look... You have the uncanny ability to NEVER forgive or let anything go. Let's make some assumptions for the sake of the discussion. Notwithstanding our past which has problems that led to our marriage turning into a routine that had very little... I daresay nothing to do with each other. I come back... I drop the OW forever... never look back again... You WILL... because I know you... bring the subject of my infidelity up at every step along the way that I do something that makes you steam up."
I heard the same thing from my H.
And at first, I felt I had every RIGHT to throw this back in his face, and for a short while I did that most every chance I got. I was extracting my "pound of flesh" as they say, and he was certain that he was doomed to a life of punishment and shame.

But you know what? I quickly lost the need to bring up the A.
As time passed and I gained confidence in our marriage again, I did not need to use the A as a way to keep the upper hand. And I realized that if I continued, it would make us BOTH miserable.
I decided that I was not meant to be my H's judge and jury - there was a higher power for that.
AND - watching my H struggle with his feelings, have trouble sleeping, and basically be an emotional & physical wreck convinced me that HE was punishing himself more than I ever could.

So don't be so convinced that she will punish you "for the rest of your days".
You WILL have some difficult days, but as time passes, so will the pain.

"She didn't deny that. I know her well enough to know this about her for certain. Furthermore... she has told every family member on her side what I've done to her... and though some of them I have been in contact with and they are cordial... the majority of her family operates the same way she does."
Again, you are making an assumption that you know how others will act.
You really don't know for sure until you are in the situation.
On d-day, my H was absolutely convinced that telling me about the A would mean his immediate removal from our home and our marriage.
It didn't happen.
So don't be so quick to predict the behavior of someone who is NOT who you remember.
Your W is NOT the same person she was before d-day, and she never will be again, so applying the old rules is a mistake.

I told my immediate family, but not extended family. I needed them - there was no way I could have made it through this without the support of my family.
Yes, they are very disappointed in my H and angry with him for hurting me, but they are honoring my wishes for them to act as normal as possible. One of my sisters said she will never feel the same about my H as she did before - and I think that is fair - she is siding with her baby sister <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

It has gotten easier now that we are over a year past d-day.
We've had the ackward family gatherings, the holidays, the birthdays.
My son's 10th birthday was 2 weeks after d-day - that was the toughest day for me.

"I told her "regardless of whether I deserve that kind of purgatory for the rest of my life, it's not a life I relish." I said "I cannot see any form of a continued life together that doesn't involve me living as the slave of former transgression." She didn't deny that one either."
Right now she cannot see the day when she will not be angry, not want to lash out at you.
But believe me, it arrives for all of us.

"Her price for return is too high."
What demands has she made?
Is this comment based only on the fact that you know you will have to "pay the piper" for awhile?
Do you think you should not have to pay ANY price for having turned the lives of your family upside down?

"If I walk in seemingly happy.. You deride me because you think it's because of the OW or that I'm pleased in some perverse way that I'm hurting you. What the hell kind of look should I have on my face!"
Oh yeah... been there, done that.... every smirk on the face was suspect. It's part of the BS feeling like they have to be on their toes - they don't want to be caught by suprise again. This goes away gradually as trust is rebuilt.

"She said the only reason she would ever take me back is for the sake of our son. I said... "That would never be enough... and I would never put our son through a life in that home."
Ok - now I am concerned. If at three months past d-day she cannot express that she still loves you, I would hesitate too. But my feel is that this is a wall - she is protecting herself, making it sound like she will be fine - whatever you choose to do. Again - she is waiting for reassurance from you, for you to say you love her and still want to be her husband.

"you know she doesn't embrace me? I hold her and she folds up inside my arms. No touching... No Caressing... For a while I thought it was cute. Then I needed some love too. These things won’t change. She states unequivocally that she is not the initiator.. the aggressor - if you will."
My H is like this as well. I used to have to go to him all the time. I felt like a puppy waiting for a pat on the head. So I stopped going to him, and he later uses that against me when describing why he had the A! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
He is more in tune with me now and actually comes looking for me. I get more affection now than I have in 15 years.

"I have sat for hours trying to think of the good stuff.. the good times... the happy times... though there are moments to recall... they are few... the longest run of happiness for us both was when we went on a cruise together. THAT was fun. That even beat the honeymoon. One whole uninterrupted week out of 15 years! Truly sickening."
See? There is potential... IF you are willing to do the work required. Yes, I said WORK.
No more dreaming of the teenage girl that with her everything was "easy" and "natural". You were not in a marriage with her. The challenges would be the same whomever you are with. Marriage isn't easy...

"You know what my fantasy is? That the OW had been happy in her relationship and not had the need to call me 6 years ago to see if maybe I was still there… and that I’d been happy in my relationship and not felt the need to track her down after that conversation with her."
Can't change the past.. what's done is done.

"I fantasize about never having thought of her again with any longing because I was so complete in my love for my wife and my wife in hers for me."

Then MAKE it happen....

Shelle

TMD Said: "I have sat for hours trying to think of the good stuff.. the good times... the happy times... though there are moments to recall... they are few... the longest run of happiness for us both was when we went on a cruise together. THAT was fun. That even beat the honeymoon. One whole uninterrupted week out of 15 years! Truly sickening."

Guess what? This is a BS speaking... My marriage was "good" for pretty much the whole thing - from MY perspective. W was meeting my most important needs - so what's wrong with that? Well, I wasn't always meeting her most important needs.

You mentioned a cruise... I think of a boat ride my W and I took, probably 3 or 4 years ago now... I don't know what it was, but that time we had, we really clicked and acted like love-sick teenagers for a short while. And then we went back to "normal life". I kick myself now, thinking that I should have encouraged that more, acted on my feelings for her more, given a bit more. That's something I have to live with.

Now, maybe your W is in a similar spot. Maybe she's hiding behind her pain, but maybe, just maybe, she wants nothing more than to have a great M too. Don't assume things. [censored]-U-Me.

The point I guess is that if there are fewer memories than you'd like, it's both your faults, and I think you know this. That's a lesson you'll need to take away, for whatever path you choose.

At the same time, please don't impose lofty expectations on your partner to make life a constant teenage "rush". You know this too, I'm sure. Expect to give and receive, and if you're not receiving as you like, say something. Go figure, we have voices! If she's not using hers, use yours to encourage!

I personally think you owe it to yourself to see if this can play out in a successful way. Not just the "right" but the "BEST" way to do this... If you go back with eyes wide open, follow a solid plan for building a strong marriage, and if it still honestly doesn't work - then you KNOW, and you can both agree (POJA) on the best path. It will make more sense. You won't have a hole in your heart that'll haunt you.

If you don't love her with abandon... you didn't love her with abandon the day before you first met her, right? Maybe not even the day after... But it was a process. So maybe it's worth a try... it's up to you.

If you worry about her bringing it up, throwing it in your face... I hope you'd both go to joint and individual counseling. It'd be a temptation for her for a while, I'm sure. But if she's doing her part, she will learn to forgive. If she isn't after you've tried and tried, and tried some more... then you know what you need to know, to leave with a clearER conscience (I doubt someone could walk away with a truly clear conscience - but it IS easier if the other party is simply out-of-touch - sadly, I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

Thank you both.

Shelle - No, it would be unrealistic for me to believe I should get off scott free. I understand this... I'm just projecting into the future. These are full blooded italians. I've spent 15 years with them. My father-in-law, now deceased, told the story of driving down the road with his wife and kids and his wife, my mother-in-law, round housing him right there as he drove... my stunned father-in-law yells "what the hell was that for!" She says.. "Thats for knocking me off the piano bench when we were children." He laughed... It was a funny story... so though this story is a cute one... it's a perfect example of how they never forget... 30 years gone by and she thought of it and was angry enough, all over again, to haul off and pummel him. eeeesh!

Probably more info than you want... these are things that go through my mind.

Yeah J.R. - [censored] U Me... I got it. Isn't it more complicated than that? I mean... I use that montra in business and usually pans out to proof within the same business day. Were talking about a significantly more educated guess. Even shelle was convinced she wouldn't be able to forgive.

and Shelle? as upset as I've made you a few times here.... It makes me wonder how pent up your rage still is over his betrayal. Can you address that one honestly for me?

And also.. you mentioned that now your H seeks you out. Does it FEEL genuine? or is it obligatory? Since showing affection is so out of character for my W... I would have to wonder about her were she to begin that behavior.

And Shelle... Forgive me for this please... these are my thoughts as they would apply to me. Since your the voice of my wife I have to ask.

Do you have a small part of you, a little knot in your stomach, a twinge of sickness, when he touches you or when you are intimate with eachother?

Do you still wonder if he thinks of her when you're making love?

Is everything you do with him still poisoned at subterainian levels?

Do you have the need to let out a gutteral scream to ease the tension of the effort to supress the rage?

Shelle - One part of me wants terribly to make everything OK again with my W. Another equally powerful part of me want's out... with or without the OW. Though admittedly the desire for the OW plays heavily.

I hear again and again that marriage is work. I knew that going in at the ripe age of 23. Though I may have been a bit arrogant to believe that I could fix the things that were breaking or handle the things that I couldn't fix, I knew it would be work. And regardless of how many tools I did or didn't have or how effectively they were weilded, I worked. Does that make the effort over the years without value? Honestly?

If I committ to making it work and it doesn't... How many more years of life are gone to me J.R. ? Years where I could have built a new home for my son and let my W find her new life.

The other night I stayed home with my son and she went out with friends.... I asked her how her night was.... she said... "this cute guy kept begging me 'will you take me home?' .. and I would laugh at him and say... awwww... don't you have your drivers license yet?"

I actually laughed at that. It was funny. My W is stunningly beautiful... some italians are gifted that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She gets that kind of attention all the time. It never bothered me. I wonder now... if the fact that the attention from other men not bothering me... upset her. I was NEVER jealous. Ever... Is that messed up? I'm just not the jealous type... even with the OW.... she would tell me how she tried with her husband.... I would smile at his valiant efforts...

It's just another thing that makes me wonder if I'm some kind of whacked anomaly. The OW is also a beautiful woman. Her H showed no jealousy either. He would let her dance with other men because he didn't like to dance. blah blah blah so on and so on... similar to me in the no jealousy thing... Only I LOVE to dance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It was arrogant trust in her fidelity. yeah! that sums it up... arrogant belief in her fidelity.

So tell me... Is that messed up? Was that one of my shortcomings... false bravado? do women need their men to spray their territory and challenge all trespassers? uggh.

where did all that come from... blathering now. what have you done to me Shelle?

J.R. and Shelle - her price is too high... I already described years of witnessing her uncanny recall of wrongs done her. My projections are based on life experience, not assumptions.

I just don't know Shelle... I don't know what I really want and what I can allow myself to commit to.

I'm Truly Madly Deeply #$%^ed up.

The unconditional love of a mother for her son... she knows me:

TMD <edited <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> >,

It means a lot to me that you thought to call me last night on your way home. No, I haven't shared all my thoughts with you yet. And I can't be sure you really know my thoughts that fill me with such concern for you.

This morning I caught your email. Your words describing your soul are so intense. My heart is wrung out for you as I read them. Your longing to be loved in a way you fear you may never be loved is a common emotion to every human being. We all feel that what we are experiencing is unique. In a sense that's true because none of us have identical cumulative experiences that feed into any given point in our lives. And the dark side of it is the way these feelings can become like a 'security blanket' we wrap around ourselves. We spin a cocoon of emotional isolation and suspicion of anything that threatens to invade that 'sacred perception' we have built. I look at your soul right now, and those are the vibes I'm getting.

While you're in this state, you struggle to find peace and release for heart and soul - on your terms. And you constantly hit the wall with events as they develop. You ask me what do I see? This is what I see! You say leave out religion. The issue is not dead religion. The issue is a living relationship with your Maker - a relationship that holds you accountable to Him. You and I are viewing this issue, above all others, from two different viewpoints. But it holds the core of the truth you must face - and you know it. You resist the thought of God intervening. You know, by your own admission of intense guilt, that you've hit a detour and want to keep exploring it even if it hurles you into the abyss. And I get the distinct impression from you that you know it will. That's what scares the heck out of me!

There's one neat thing about email...it gives you time to edit yourself. I could never have said what's in these paragraphs if we were discussing things face to face. That's my problem! My own life experience weighs heavily and is sunk deeply into everything I have said. Let's hope this is only the first edition. Selah!

One thought to ponder - God has said, "I have loved you with an everlasting love. . ." No relationship on earth comes anywhere near that. Chew on that!

I'm off the email until Tuesday. My heart and prayer are with you. Dig deep, honey! You haven't scratch the surface yet!

Love, Mom
_____________________



<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

TMD,

Loved the story about your Italian in-laws. Isn't that what makes life fun? I have a very calm, polite family and I have always yearned for the apparent chaos and passion of a family like that.
So they hold grudges - who doesn't?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
My H & I are admittedly both stubborn as mules.
Maybe that's why we are still together - neither wants the other to "win" - neither wants to be the one to call it quits. I prefer to think of our recovery as calling a "do-over".

You seem to want a guarantee of some sort that your W will not "torture" you with this.
Well, by just the nature of an A, it WILL torture BOTH of you... if you LET it.
Your W can no more give you a guarantee of peace on this issue than you can guarantee that you will not hurt her with another A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Where is your trust in the future?
Or at least your ability to deal with it?

Don't make it an "all or nothing" leap of faith.
I knew I could not guarantee to my H that during recovery I may not change MY mind and no longer want the M as I claimed on d-day.
He has lived with that - the fear that I would turn the tables on him when he just got comfortable and kick him to the curb out of revenge.
Geez! You men really think we women are EVIL, don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

"...Even Shelle was convinced she wouldn't be able to forgive."
I prefer to challenge my beliefs - so I took a chance. Had to live through it to make a decision. Truthfully, it could have gone either way throughout the entire first 12 months. (Until we got past all the ugly triggers and anniversaries- don't underestimate the power of those buggers)

At 15 months past d-day, I can look back with a clear conscience and say that I DID make the best choice for me. It wasn't the EASY choice, but it was the RIGHT choice.

"and Shelle? as upset as I've made you a few times here.... It makes me wonder how pent up your rage still is over his betrayal. Can you address that one honestly for me?"
Sorry TMD, I must really have you convinced that I am a raging Jerry Springer psycho-b*tch.
Totally not true.
OK, I WILL ADMIT I LIKE TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS...!!

My early posts to you were full of anger because I was reacting to your seeming sense of entitlement at having the A, of blaming your W for the problems in your M, of not being remorseful. At least that's what I was hearing.
And your story hit me a bit to close to home for comfort.

As you have progressed in your journey, there is less need for me to whip out the MB 2x4 and whack you upside the head. (but it's always ready if needed ) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am really not an angry person. In fact, anger has always scared me and I retreat from it.
I can honestly say that I have felt an anger in myself that I never thought I had.
But that anger was just one of the "phases" of our recovery. You have to expect them all, and not necessarily in any logical order.

I found the following to be very helpful with keeping my perspective;

An old Indian grandfather was telling his grandson that he had two tigers living in his soul. One was angry, full of hatred, scared, sad, and mean. The other was gentle, calm, serene, happy. They would get into terrible fights all the time. The grandson asked, Who won? The grandfather answered, "The one I feed."

Also, I just find life too humorous to take it too seriously.
My sense of humor has been my saving grace, it's kept me sane in the most insane of times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

"And also.. you mentioned that now your H seeks you out. Does it FEEL genuine? or is it obligatory? Since showing affection is so out of character for my W... I would have to wonder about her were she to begin that behavior."
Yes, it does feel geniune - NOW. The first few months of sharing our needs (mine for affection) was really ackward. We discovered how much we really did NOT know about each other, how much we had assumed we knew.

It was like learning a new dance -
Many false starts.
Many steps on toes.
Many "I'm Sorry's".
But now, we flow and are dancing quite well.

OK - gotta get back to work.
I'm only on my lunch hour (on the West Coast).

I'll check back with you later - I want to address your other questions and they deserve not to be rushed.

Take Care,
Shelle

Ok, picking up where I left off earlier....

"And Shelle... Forgive me for this please... these are my thoughts as they would apply to me. Since your the voice of my wife I have to ask.
Do you have a small part of you, a little knot in your stomach, a twinge of sickness, when he touches you or when you are intimate with eachother?"
These days? Not at all.
Back in the early days? Just a little.
But even on d-day, three hours after he told me everything, an hour after he made the final call to OW and told her we were staying together, we were making love.
I was determined to get "rid" of OW, to reclaim my marriage and my H.
Over the first 6 months or so, I would occassionally experience pictures popping into my head of my H being intimate with a faceless woman. (I never did see or meet OW)
I just dealt with these as best I could and moved on with life.

"Do you still wonder if he thinks of her when you're making love?"
Occassionally. But it doesn't stop me from initiating lovemaking if I want it.
Usually it is only when doing the one thing I know was her "specialty". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"Is everything you do with him still poisoned at subterainian levels?"
Poisioned? Not at all.
He is not tainted in my eyes - he is my husband, a human being with needs, wants, and flaws just as I am. If anything, his having insecurities and failings has made him MORE attractive to me.
He was always one of those perfectionistic types that rarely makes mistakes of any kind.
I always felt like the "Lucy" to his "Ricky Ricardo". I'm a goofball, what can I say. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

"Do you have the need to let out a gutteral scream to ease the tension of the effort to supress the rage?"
There you go with the anger thing again... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Never had this need, there was no "rage".
For me the biggest emotion was just this incredibly painful feeling of being rejected as a wife, a woman, and a human being. His putting someone else above me in his life, even for the short time that he did, was incredibly painful.
Then the waiting... while he went through what you are going through...
...excrutiating to watch,
to be on the OUTSIDE, to feel like the ENEMY.

Waiting... waiting.... waiting....
... my life on terminal hold...
And I am not a patient woman.

"Shelle - One part of me wants terribly to make everything OK again with my W. Another equally powerful part of me want's out... with or without the OW. Though admittedly the desire for the OW plays heavily."
Split in half, hmmm...??
Time for a coin flip?
C'mon, you can't be exactly equally divided...??

I am reaching for the 2x4... don't make any sudden moves.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"And regardless of how many tools I did or didn't have or how effectively they were weilded, I worked. Does that make the effort over the years without value? Honestly?'
Not at all, I commend you on your efforts.
Sounds like you put up a good fight, but the W was just too big a b*tch for you to overcome...??
(Shelle says with much sarcasim)

If you are like my H & I, we both felt we put in major efforts with little results. Both felt like hamsters on the wheel, running fast and getting nowhere.

Why is it NOW, post d-day, that some of the EXACT SAME things we tried before that failed,
are actually WORKING for us?

I can only speak for myself, but I was aware of most of the inconsiderate things I did in our M.
I just took it for granted that they were not DEAL-BREAKERS as Dr.Phil calls them.
I told my H that if he had ever sat me down and respectfully said to me, "Shelle, if you continue to do xxyyzz, I will leave our marriage", I would have snapped to attention right then & there.
But he didn't - he would drop little hints here & there, expecting me to take them as gospel.

So when you say you put in a lot of effort, be sure that you think about not only the NUMBER of times you made an effort, but more importantly the QUALITY of the effort and the respect & sensitivity with which your message was or was not delivered. You may have negated your efforts and not even been aware of it.

"If I committ to making it work and it doesn't... How many more years of life are gone to me J.R. ? Years where I could have built a new home for my son and let my W find her new life."
What's the rush?
Make a deadline to re-evaluate.
I gave myself one year.
At one year past d-day, if I could honestly say I had given my all and it still was not working,
I would have walked without regret.
I felt I HAD to give us time.
Time to operate and experiment under the "new rules" that had surfaced after d-day.
There was no status quo allowed.
We needed time to feel out this new "US", try it on or size and see how it fit.

At the one year mark, I was not 100% sure that I could still see us growing old together, but I was intrigued enough by the improvements I saw to continue on the journey.

The question I use as a gauge is...
"At this moment, can I imagine my life being better WITHOUT him?"
It has been a resounding NO every time so far.

"The other night I stayed home with my son and she went out with friends.... I asked her how her night was.... she said... "this cute guy kept begging me 'will you take me home?' .. and I would laugh at him and say... awwww... don't you have your drivers license yet?"
Dangerous to be enouraging this.
She may get the feeling that you WANT her to meet someone.
Don't send mixed signals.

"So tell me... Is that messed up? Was that one of my shortcomings... false bravado? do women need their men to spray their territory and challenge all trespassers? uggh."
Occassionally it is nice to know you care, but all the time becomes too "caveman".
My experience has been that the more attractive the woman, the more insecure she is and the more reassurance she will need. JMHO

"where did all that come from... blathering now. what have you done to me Shelle?
ME? What did I do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
You've been blathering since you got here, mister!

"J.R. and Shelle - her price is too high... I already described years of witnessing her uncanny recall of wrongs done her. My projections are based on life experience, not assumptions."
Again, don't be so sure you are in the room with the same woman you knew before.
Has she not suprised you yet on anything?
So being reminded of your A is totally unacceptable to you - you must have an ironclad guarantee?
Sounds to me like you are holding on to that so you have an excuse to not go back and try to make it work.

"I just don't know Shelle... I don't know what I really want and what I can allow myself to commit to."
Keep talking TMD, just keep talking.
It will sort itself out eventually.

"I'm Truly Madly Deeply #$%^ed up.'
A's have a way of doing that to otherwise good people.

Take Care,
Shelle

TMD,

You WILL... because I know you... bring the subject of my infidelity up at every step along the way that I do something that makes you steam up."

No one here believes in recovery based on power shifts, control, and forever being blamed for the root of all evil in this worlds...is a desirable thing...

you are right to have those concerns...
but not necessarily to project them with such certainity..

I believe that people can and do change...all the time...
you should not give up that hope that as well...it will not serve you well...

You are right to point that out to your wife...but be careful that pigeon holing her in to not being able to change based on your own doubts and fears...

you may be playing a bigger role in holding back her change than you think by not believing in her...she may sense this...or worse even KNOW this...how scarey for her......

you took her non-denial of not being able to stop blaming you...and left it there as fact...
go back to those sentiments..and give her the gift of believing enough in her that she can change...
that the bigger picture should be desiring a marriage of equal control and nurturing...and that you do believe in her...
you both are so stubborn...in clinging to what has had been...and NO marriage with infidelity should ever cling to what has been...

and you or no one should not have to except her verbalizations of "I've never been that type of person" in relationship too meeting some of your needs...ie affection,...touching etc...

what she is saying irrevelevant....never being that type of person has nothing to do with becoming that type of person....that's your focus...

you need to look at and think about how safe an environment you have created for her to change in..and this is not a blame...this is just looking at this at a different angle...to see if you we can see where/why things haven't worked in the past...

and perhaps part of the answer to that is that men are task oriented fix it kind of beings...so that for years when things weren't how you wanted them in the marriage...and you felt things could be different/better...perhaps you did take on the role of doing all the work....when it was really her job....

and perhaps she never had too change or work at anything...because you did it all...

and perhaps she never felt comfortable iniating any changes...because the pattern was set that you would do it...

AND PERHAPS>....JUST PERHAPS....this truly is yours and her wake up call....
to change things...by her doing some of the work this time...if not a lot...perhaps your job is to not do so much work...

change is the scariest thing going these days...next to "some" of the new pop-bands... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You know this...perhaps it would serve your wife well to help her learn this as well....regardless of outcome of all of this...

It is well worth the investment of trying to support someone in growing and changing...

while acknowledging your own boundaries...and you do have some...I really do believe that you do love her....and I really think JR makes some good points...
in trying...

you have a child.....
i think he deserves one more shot at this...
I believe though that your wife though not responsible for your actions...is responsible for her treatment of you...and she is accountable...for not holding up her vows of cherishing you as well....

rambling on. here....
ARK

I've sat here staring at a blank text box for 20 minutes. I did the same last night before I gave up.

I know you're right.

I can't do it. I don't know how to do it and feel certain I haven't made another huge mistake. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> It's too hard to let go of this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Save the 2X4 Shelle... I already feel it.

-TMD

TMD, It's not about being right or wrong.
I said I support your possible decision to be alone. I understand the temptation to make a clean break and start over. Even though I wasn't the one to break my vows, I did feel at times like just saying "forget it". Our MC even said to us that "maybe the horse has already left the barn..." - gee, that little nugget was worth $120 an hour??

When grappling with whether to stay or go, my H said to me that the "easy" thing would be to stay.
I understood his struggle. I offered to divorce him right then, being very fair with all issues of finance and child custody. If that's really what he wanted, I loved him enough to let him go.

I did not want him to stay if he had huge doubts about whether he really wanted to be here or not.
I never wanted him to feel like a prisioner, like he had lost his free will. I knew he'd have some doubts - and with time they would either intensify and convince him he should go, or they would be resolved by the changes we both made in our relationship.

I told him that if he did decide to stay, that if he came along in a year or two with the same conflict, after I had opened my heart to him again, that I would not be so cooperative, that I would feel as if he had wasted my time, played with my emotions. The only way that I would accept him staying is if he really wanted me and our M.

You are right to be cautious about reconcilliation. Being out of the house is painful for everyone, but how much more painful would it be for you to go back and have to leave again in a short time - especially for your son. But the flip side is that he would see that mom & dad made an effort.
It's a tough call.

Our situations are similar TMD, but there are big differences as well.
The fact that you contacted the OW and brought her back into your life, the fact that your W was/is not fighting for your M, and the fact that you are still so unsure of what you want. It makes me believe that maybe you should be alone - at least for the near future.

At one point shortly after d-day, I had taken off my wedding rings and placed them on my H's dresser. He asked why they were there and I told him that I did not want them back until he was sure that he wanted to continue being married to me. He picked them up and put them on my finger without hesitation.

Would your W's rings still be on the dresser...??

My recent posts were not an attempt to convince you to go running back to your W & M. They were to show you that this mess CAN be cleaned up, that there can be a silver lining in all of this, and that all is NOT lost at this point.

Many people have come through much worse on this board and been better people for it.

This whole thing is so emotionally exhausting, isn't it?
How's your stress level these days?
Are your meds helping?
Still seeing your IC?

BTW - your mom sounds like a wise lady.

Take Care,
Shelle

<small>[ August 10, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: ShelleBelle66 ]</small>