TMD: I am currently reading a GREAT book. Maybe better than SAA - and SAA saved our marriage. One of the insights it offers is, one of the most common ways our fathers unintentionally wound us is to tell us "You're not good enough." in some way. If some part of you really buys that, it will always try to sabotage whatever you do. So, it is a common problem, and one I am wrestling with.

Anyway, you can try very hard in your marriage, even do a great job of meeting needs, and still fail miserably because your wife is not receptive. The question is, why is your wife not receptive? (This is not unique to you, I had the same problem.) In some cases, it is because of some subtle LB's that we do not even recognize. Gary Smalley, in his books, makes the point that what looks like figuratively a tiny pebble dropped on a wife's foot, can feel like a small boulder to her - and she won't necessarily tell you, either. She may just withdraw. Also, I have heard Harley say that people who are abusive rarely realize the effects their actions have on their victim, but based on what Smalley says, it seems to be pretty general. You don't have to be "abusive" to do enough damage, either unknowingly or unconsciously to sabotage any effort at meeting needs. Then their is the fact that we generally try to meet needs on our schedule, and that can feel like neglect to someone else - and neglect is actually the most common cause of withdrawal, and again, the wife may say nothing. So there are a host of possibilities here - and I actually do not know which one(s) caused my wife's withdrawal, or if it was FOO issues, because it happened so subtly over so many years, that she cannot tell me.

TMD your replies always make my heart ache (but please don't ever stop being honest!)because you echoe so much of what my H says. I guess we are both in hopeless positions. You see I have let go. I moved out with the kids 2 months ago and am in contact only due to the kids, very minimal. I not only let him go I practically ran from him. Now it's the love and pain I need to let go, but have no idea how. TMD I don't know you and understand only a fraction of your situation, and I'm not angry with you and I might even be a little sympathetic, but I have to say this, as much as want my M back, there's no way my H and I could acheive that if I knew my H refuses to let go of another woman. I would lay down and die for him before I allow myself to step into 2nd place. I might even find your notion of love gallant and romantic, but I live in the harsh reality of being the WIFE, I only have moral and honor and responsibility and legality on my side. Rest is up to my husband. He has moral and honor and is responsible, but all that is reserved for her and their affair. Thank you for what you wrote. Like what you said, this is as close to communicating with my H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>TMD: I am currently reading a GREAT book. Maybe better than SAA - and SAA saved our marriage. One of the insights it offers is, one of the most common ways our fathers unintentionally wound us is to tell us "You're not good enough." in some way. If some part of you really buys that, it will always try to sabotage whatever you do. So, it is a common problem, and one I am wrestling with.

Anyway, you can try very hard in your marriage, even do a great job of meeting needs, and still fail miserably because your wife is not receptive. The question is, why is your wife not receptive? (This is not unique to you, I had the same problem.) In some cases, it is because of some subtle LB's that we do not even recognize. Gary Smalley, in his books, makes the point that what looks like figuratively a tiny pebble dropped on a wife's foot, can feel like a small boulder to her - and she won't necessarily tell you, either. She may just withdraw. Also, I have heard Harley say that people who are abusive rarely realize the effects their actions have on their victim, but based on what Smalley says, it seems to be pretty general. You don't have to be "abusive" to do enough damage, either unknowingly or unconsciously to sabotage any effort at meeting needs. Then their is the fact that we generally try to meet needs on our schedule, and that can feel like neglect to someone else - and neglect is actually the most common cause of withdrawal, and again, the wife may say nothing. So there are a host of possibilities here - and I actually do not know which one(s) caused my wife's withdrawal, or if it was FOO issues, because it happened so subtly over so many years, that she cannot tell me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank You Johnh. My father was a great man. He was a Baptist minister for over 30 years before cancer took him... He never said much when he wasn't at the pulpit... but when he did say something to me. It was worth hearing. I was never diminished by his words.

As for the sabotage. I just spent 20 minutes writing a response to that... then promptly deleted it. babble.

Not following through. Pep? That's my weakness. Ironic I should follow through on this historic love. What perfect sabotage. What monumental devastation.

Romantic Notions RF? Ahhh. I told the OW recently... well it's been 9 days N/C... but maybe 2 weeks ago.. I told her "we are hoplessly romantic saps." She agreed.

I'm sorry fo the heart ache RF. I do truly love the OW. I love her enough to let her go back to try to fix her life because giving her all to that effort is important to her. Her husband loves her. He's really pissed off... but who could blame him? right? His efforts have been nothing short of heroic. He makes me smile because I believe he can make her love him more than ever now. I believe this experience has made him see beyond himself for the first time in his life. They'll be OK.

I love my wife enough to let her go because she deserves better than a man who would do what I've done... and more important than my own self pity... she deserves a man who loves HER first and not second. As do YOU.

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!"

How poetic the authors initials should be -WS

-TMD

TMD,

Did you ever think of asking your wife to look at the MB site? It might help get you both on the same page.

JMVHO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

TMD, "I do truly love the OW. I love her enough to let her go back to try to fix her life because giving her all to that effort is important to her."
NOW you love her enough to let her go? Oh - it was just let her go to "try" to fix her life. With you waiting in the wings, I'm sure she will be successful in doing that. You are sabatoging her efforts by allowing her to continue contacting you, and you know it - maybe enjoy knowing it, just waiting to see how long until she shows up at your door with her suitcase in hand? How romantic..... bleeeechhh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

If she does end up with you, will it not bother you that she did not try 100% to save her marriage? Until she does complete NC with you, she's not giving her H and her M the respect and effort that they both deserve. What does that say about her? What will that mean for you if you marry her? You will be with a woman who will not fight for her marriage - ironic, isn't it - that is what you are complaining about with your W, yet you are trying to repeat it with OW. All that talk about you fixing errors and learning from your mistakes doesn't apply?

"Her husband loves her. He's really pissed off... but who could blame him? right? His efforts have been nothing short of heroic. He makes me smile because I believe he can make her love him more than ever now. I believe this experience has made him see beyond himself for the first time in his life. They'll be OK."
As long as you are in contact with OW they will NOT BE OK - EVER. Stop kidding yourself. If you allow contact to continue and she ends up leaving him, you will be partially to blame for the failure of the marriage. Can you live with that?

Shelle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rushed fool:
<strong>TMD your replies always make my heart ache (but please don't ever stop being honest!)because you echoe so much of what my H says. I guess we are both in hopeless positions. You see I have let go. I moved out with the kids 2 months ago and am in contact only due to the kids, very minimal. I not only let him go I practically ran from him. Now it's the love and pain I need to let go, but have no idea how. TMD I don't know you and understand only a fraction of your situation, and I'm not angry with you and I might even be a little sympathetic, but I have to say this, as much as want my M back, there's no way my H and I could acheive that if I knew my H refuses to let go of another woman. I would lay down and die for him before I allow myself to step into 2nd place. I might even find your notion of love gallant and romantic, but I live in the harsh reality of being the WIFE, I only have moral and honor and responsibility and legality on my side. Rest is up to my husband. He has moral and honor and is responsible, but all that is reserved for her and their affair. Thank you for what you wrote. Like what you said, this is as close to communicating with my H.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RF,

What I see is that you are attempting to take the 'high road' because you see and feel that is what you should do. However emotionally you are not ready. Mentally yes, emtioanlly no. So tends to leave you feeling like you are hanging off the edge of a dangerous cliff.

You are where many of us have been. I know the feeling. You may also be getting angry at yourself for not doing what you know you should be doing based on your H's actions. But your emotionans are allowing your tolerance of the A with your heart somehow in a confusing way still wanting him back. Maybe not as much as others but it shows.

I call this state one where your heart and mind are out of sync. You are not crazy but you also are not settled yet. When and how will you be settled? Hmmm..... it is not an easy answer. For some it takes weeks, months or even years. But when they hit that turning point, letting go and moving forward then shows up as a real possiblity.

So I suggest instead of climbing that high road yet, you navigate your self off that emotional cliff.

Plan A is good for that. Work to bettering yourself and distancing yourself from his pain a bit slower. It is not wrong to love your H. That is normal. What is wrong here is his involvement with a foreign object. Your M makes you 2 1 body in the eyes of God. Whether you believe in a Sumpreme Being or not, that 1 body concept is in all marriages. Just making a statement - not debating religion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

That foreign object (OP) is infecting your M. Instead of running a marathon, taking on more tasks, harder job, etc..... you need to work on removing that source of infection from your life. Take your vitamins, eat right, rest, visit the doctor as needed, etc. Small amounts of excercise are good but don't over do yourself.

This will help you. This is known as plan A. Your H is highly infected, more than you. That part of your marriage body is falling apart. You see that and are greatly disturbed but you can't give it all the help you can give yourself. So you help it a bit, from a distance but you at some point have to let some of the healing start on it's own. It may take a while but if you can see that your H is out of character due to this A, then listen to folks who like TMD were crazed with the same infection.

Is there hope for your H? I believe so. YOu probably are too close to see it but his actions are that of an unstable man. Someone who can not see himself as the world does. Kinda like the Emperor in the story the Emperor's new clothes. Now there's a fool. But once a fool not always a fool......unless that infection never heals.

By the way, the road you are trying to take is the right road. But you are still human and can't fly to get there. So get there safely and a bit slower.....for your santity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ July 26, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

TMD: My father's father was a perfectionist. There was only one way to do something - the "right way" (read that: HIS way). My father shielded me from that as much as he could. He has often told me he is proud of me. He has supported me and my interests as a child and as an adult. But, somehow, I got the message "You can do better". It is easy to hear that as "You are not good enough", which is exactly the message he got when he was not doing things his father's way. Funny how that works.

The book is "Wild at Heart". It discusses honor, adventure, and following your heart in a way I have not seen before by a Christian author.

Thanks for all the replies. You're so very right Orchid, heart and mind are all out of synch I believe for both WS's and Bs's. I guess the best advice is still focusing on myself. I'm trying. But the hardest part is I'm forced to spend so much time apart from my kids, because H gets them so many times a week. Can't help being a little bit bitter. But yes focusing on my self. Wangi and I met up yesterday and had a really good time (her husband must be blind). We are going to take up golf together. Small steps, one day at a time...

RF,

Good to hear from you. Does he have to have the children that often? Is it good for them to be in his sole care that often? Just wondering.

I still believe what I said above. The method of dealing with it can be just as confusing (plan A/Plan b/plan D/plan ??? ). That is why reading here is helpful.

Glad you and Wangi met up. Gonna play some golf??? Hm..... just picked up a partial set of clubs myself. Don't know much about them....yet. But I have a cute bag, tees and new golf balls!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am sure I will be a challenge for any instructor. Too old and too short! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have fun and since we are all in the same area, maybe we can all hook up one day for a round or 2 of 'minitature golf' (my current speed - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

L.

RF,Orchid, hey you two, RF & I had a good time,we even went to watch a movie,wonderful tea at the ROTUNDA..we had spent a whole 10 hours having fun,you know what,RF,your H is even more blind than my long gone WH,you are a wonderful,caring and very sweet woman(we know it already)we will take good care of "us"..and Orchid,never said the word too short,(even if you were really 4'10"
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ,but with a good heart and not stealing other's H! )no matter how short we are,we are ABLE to walk with our heads held high and be really good at swinging,so wanna join us to the driving range soemday? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

This makes me happy .... the 2 of you meeting up and being each other's support.

Sooooooo coooooooool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

My H gets them Tues. and Friday nights and Saturday. The boys adore and worship their dad. It was very hard this evening (Sun). 5 year old was screaming and crying inconsolably for his dad. It was heartbreaking, I asked him why he wanted to see daddy so badly he said "I just miss him so much..." So my H and I talked and decided to bring him to H's place. I was angry and bitter and just emotionally drained, having to deal with this little boy meltdown for his daddy. But on my way driving over to H's place I did something I never did before. I called his pager and left a msg, said that it was not easy for anyone, and must not be easy for him. That I understood he was probably going through a hard time, I said I didn't know what else to say, and I wished him peace. I felt much better after I left the msg. The anger was gone too.

I'm learning...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

RF,
The pain eventually subsides but it takes a while. That is why patience is such a virtue.

That calm heart and clear mind will be your savior. Along with the love of your children.

Hugz,
L.

Pepp,yeah RF & I not only support each other we also have fun, and we will do it more often instead of being miserable adn bitter alone...
wish you were in the bay area too,give some hard core tough loving.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

RF,living,forgiving,loving,healing,learning....the road is long,yes,but don't forget you are not alone,call anytime,like I said we can laugh and even cry together,stay strong and be attractive and smile always.OK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Orchid,come join us soon..OK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />