This is pretty much is why Mr. Pep delayed his honesty too ... cuz my Irish would speak up, and he would catch my anger. So instead, he went underground, and the wounds festered, and he had an A partly due to his resentment ....

I have learned to say "Thank YOU" when he brings up an issue in the now. If I feel angry, I say, I need a moment to calm down, then we'll discuss.

I starts with you 2Long.

It's better to deal with things as they happen, accepting the emotional consequences in the now.

Pep

Pepper:

"This is pretty much is why Mr. Pep delayed his honesty too ... cuz my Irish would speak up, and he would catch my anger. So instead, he went underground, and the wounds festered, and he had an A partly due to his resentment .... "

BINGO. Only my W comes from Dutch ancestry. (as a kid, I had a dutch friend, and when he got pi$$ed at you, he wouldn't talk 2 you for at least 6 months!)

"I have learned to say "Thank YOU" when he brings up an issue in the now. If I feel angry, I say, I need a moment to calm down, then we'll discuss."

My W counts 2 ten when something angers her. Last time she did that (but after she had calmed down), I suggested she count 2 100, because counting 2 10 doesn't give me enough time 2 put much distance between us. I'm getting old, and it takes longer 2 get this fuselage in motion... ...it's kind of like the failed "nuclear hand grenade" invention. The grenade hogged out a crater 300 yards in diameter. Unfortunately the average soldier couldn't throw it the 150+ yards required...

"I starts with you 2Long.
It's better to deal with things as they happen, accepting the emotional consequences in the now."

Yes. I wish it were simple AND easy!

-ol', slow-moving 2long

I agree with Spacecase, and I agree with Pepperband.

I do it with smoke and mirrors.

Actually, ( this is from "my own" point of view, OK?) space is right because it is really hard to talk to someone that doesn't want to talk. Perhaps I should say that it is fruitless to talk to someone that won't listen. If they won't listen and they won't respond ( and 2longs W sometimes would just walk away and not respond) then it is hard to WANT to talk to her. It would be hard for me to make myself do it. I have experience with that. I talk to my W, we "agree" on something and then she does the exact opposite of what we agree on. After a while, I "refuse to waste my time on it, because you will do whatever you want anyway." Well, I am LEARNING how to communicate and we are DOING BETTER. Notice I didn't say we are finished with it. What I learned to do was find ways to learn what her real feelings about things are, and I learned not to force things on her. ( never thought I was, but what else explains it?) I also have learned to EXPRESS MY FEELINGS WHEN SHE DOESN'T DO WHAT WE AGREE.

So, I do agree with Spacecase. There are bad times to talk when you try, and no communication takes place, and there are good times to talk when it does take place.

Now, I agree with Pepper too. I agree because I was not good at communicating right along, and I would let things go until it got to be more than I could stand and then I would unload. ( unload is bad, really bad.) So, after coming to MB in Jan of 2002, I made a goal to change that part of our relationship. I began to speak up about things. Before I would think things like:

It won't do any good to talk about it.
We may fight if I say anything.
She'll just agree to my face and do what she wants behind my back.
I already know she doesn't want to hear it, so why waste my time.

Pep is right because it was about me, not her. My emotional state, not hers. See, while Space is right that you sometimes can't get through to them, Pep is right because you are doing it for you, not her. I think I saw once someone on MB say that you "can't change your spouse, you can only change you and hope they respond."
It helped ( helps) me a great deal. Before she could say that she didn't know how I felt, but now she knows, and it is her choice. I am not mean, or angry about it. I don't use DJ's, I just tell her how "I " feel.

" Hon, I appreciate you trying new things for dinner, and some of them I really like, but I don't think I would order this one again."

"Before we make a final decision about whether we let S go to the movie, I think we need to talk about it in the other room."

" Since we have this partnership called marriage, I believe we ought to talk about this and make a decision together so no hard feelings will come out of it. "

"I feel sad that we didn't get a chance to discuss this before you did it. You are important to me, and I want to help. I hope we can discuss it next time so that we BOTH can be happy. I am not really happy about how this turned out this time."

I tell her how I feel. Sometimes we talk, sometimes we don't. Often she doesn't hear me, or perhaps better to say that she doesn't process it. I know it registers with her, because when we finally do talk and she says "why didn't you tell me sooner," I now say " I did, I mentioned it yesterday when I said that I felt sad that we didn't get a chance to discuss this before you did it. and that I hope we can discuss it next time so that we BOTH can be happy. AND also that I was not really happy about how it turned out this time."

Usually I add something like this " I wanted to discuss it in more detail then, but you didn't reply so I thought I would leave it until you were able to respond."

I have practiced it a lot in the last year. It is just now starting to come natural, not feel forced. Sometimes it is enough to say " I know this isn't the best time, but I feel we need to talk about this, how would later tonight be for you?"

Remember how we have discussed communication? I recall you saying that your successful sessions felt really good to you. This is one of those things that responds well to exercise. You don't need to force it, you need to practice it. Failed sessions are not failed sessions, they are practice, and learning experiences.

What would her response have been if the conversation had gone something like this:

"Are you OK with me being gone on this job for two weeks? "

"Well, I have reservations about it, after all, when you are as in love as I am, with a W as wonderful as mine is, you are bound to miss her when she is gone. No, I don't like you being gone one bit, but I am glad you won't have to deal with RM any longer, and I am glad the stress level will go down for you in lots of ways. Is that what you wanted to know? "

Would this statement ( or something like it) get you points as well as explain your point of view?

Remember, I don't expect you to say these things that I come up with, I just do it to give you ideas. You ought to do better than this anyway, because you are smarter than me.

I try to tell her my feelings and then talk in detail later when she is ready to talk. It helps us both to do it that way. I am happier, and she "gets it" better.

Pepper, you did just right. You do lots of things much better than I can, and thank you. I have followed your comments on your son, and I am happy there is progress. I wish you could seem me grin when I read those positive updates about him. I often comment out loud, ( Yes! good for him !!!) and the people in the office look at me and wonder.

Spacecase, You have helped a lot of people here. I am glad to see you comment. You say things so well in a small space. I wish I was better at it. I read your updates ( on your own thread) but didn't know if I could add to what was said. Our emotions are very powerful forces in our lives. I hope you get to use yours for joy a little more, and not so much for pain. I still pray for you, and for your W.

SS

PS, 2long,
There is one more thing I use that could be useful to you.

Sometimes, I say: "I am not sure how I feel about it. It kind of makes me uneasy to think of it. Can I think about it a little longer and get back to you?"

I never say I am OK with it, if I am not. (Well, OK, OK, almost never - and not near so much now as a year ago.)

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

I agree with all three of you! (and I don't mean just you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

"What would her response have been if the conversation had gone something like this:
"Are you OK with me being gone on this job for two weeks? "
"Well, I have reservations about it, after all, when you are as in love as I am, with a W as wonderful as mine is, you are bound to miss her when she is gone. No, I don't like you being gone one bit, but I am glad you won't have to deal with RM any longer, and I am glad the stress level will go down for you in lots of ways. Is that what you wanted to know? "
Would this statement ( or something like it) get you points as well as explain your point of view?
Remember, I don't expect you to say these things that I come up with, I just do it to give you ideas. You ought to do better than this anyway, because you are smarter than me."

Believe it or not, we've had almost this exact convo recently. She does ask me and has asked me about whether I'm "okay" with something she's about 2 do or has asked me about. And she did aske me this exact 2uestion. And the response sample you posted above is almost verbatim what I said in reply more than once in the past 2ple of weeks. Every point. My problem here is that I probably don't tell you folks enough about what we talk about or what happens 2 give a full pic2re. But then 2 do so I'd have 2 ignore all my work responsibilities, wouldn't I?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have 2 beg 2 differ on your last point, however. I'm not smarter than you. Quite the opposite, probably. I'm certainly not as eloquent as you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Let me help with this ....

2Long has a very high IQ .... but, he's not that smart! LOL
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The devil made me say it! Pep

Pepper:

I've often said: "I'm really bright, I'm just not that sharp!"

It's true, 2. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

-ol' ...um....2long... I think.

Oh Yeah?
Well, I won't be around much the rest of the afternoon, someone reminded me I have work to do.

I can see I don't need to post much to you, you already do it before I think it.

Is that in the past of the future? It hurts to think about it.

Not now,
Not now.

SS

BTW, people used to tell me I am " as sharp as a marble." Is that good?

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

"BTW, people used to tell me I am " as sharp as a marble." Is that good?"

Hm... No. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...unless the marble is really small, or it's really moving FAST! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long

I found lostva's post here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=024650 2 be very inspirational!

Considering the big differences in our si2ations - primarily the fact that my W has never left 2 be with RM, whereas hers lived with PT for months - I find myself doing a self-check of my personal morals, my "plan", and my growth progress after reading her story again.

I've thought a lot about my tendency 2 still "dwell" lately. When I do, my mind takes over and I go crazy inside. As I've been able 2 grow over time, my ability 2 keep this inside such that others around me can't see it has "improved" but we know that isn't such a good thing, because dwelling leads 2 festering which leads 2 vengeful acts. And by the time we've gotten 2 the festering stage, what's really happening can be so different from what I'm imagining is happening that it isn't funny. And then the vengeful behavior certainly isn't funny. Thankfullly, I haven't been very vengeful in the past year and a half (at least I don't think so, but my W might differ). I thank people here and on iloveulove.com for "talking me down" when I get about 2 do something s2pid.

The process continues. If I can keep my wits about me as beautifully as lostva did for so long, while I and my W "find ourselves" and learn about ourselves, then I will be eternally grateful for every kernal of wisdom I've gleaned from these forums.

We talked a little last night about her work. She said that RM still hasn't sent the stuff back 2 her boss, which doesn't surprise me. But she said he had sent her boss an email, saying "I'm doing this for a long-time buddy", meaning he's not charging for all his time. But that remark annoyed me, and I wasn't able 2 voice why 2 her at the time. I still need 2 work on that. But she could tell that I wasn't comfortable with the convo about him and work, so she suggested we change subjects, which we did.

Later, as we were hitting the sack, I thought a lot about it, and her upcoming trip. I bounced back between dwelling and contemplating what lostva accomplished, and I think I've come 2 the conclusion (yeah, right! like there's EVER a conclusion 2 this stuff!!) that I will tell my W about discovering the emails last month, and I will comment on her remarks 2 RM about our M that she made at the time. It's not that I think that reflects her current thinking, because I don't - there are plenty of "indications" in our interactions 2gether that tell me that she's grown since then. But I do need 2 tell her why I continue 2 be concerned that there is still secrecy between them, because there clearly was as recently as a month and a half ago. I will be burning a "chip" by telling her about finding the emails, but I could very well be earning a little trust from her at the same time by doing so (once she calms down afterwards, that is). I would definitely like 2 be informed EVERY time that they have contact of any kind from now on, as well as the content, assuming they do have contact.

It will take me a while 2 formulate a response 2 her comments 2 RM, and I'll probably send them in an email, since I compose myself more clearly that way. But much of my response, that I put in draft form in my previous thread, I've already talked with her about, so mostly I'll be talking about radical honesty and the discovery of the emails. Will be open 2 suggestions, but don't beat me up if I don't appear 2 listen 2 them all, okay?

♥2long

Hey, lilbro, I finally got my password and access again!
I've been reading your posts--and am always here supporting with good thoughts beaming at you! Hope you can feel their warmth!
As I read about your reluctance to stir W's anger, I recall how I wince to think of arousing it myself--and I have such brief contact with her because of distance. Pep, Spacecase, & SS have such good insights to this phenomenon.
I would like to add/reiterate that I think she uses anger to push away and drown out suggestions or comments that may make her look closely at herself. She's afraid to confront these issues.
It's a bullying technique, and it obviously works well because of how carefully you try to avoid her anger (and I do too). In this way she may be patterning behavior she learned from her dad--and I know she would NOT want to be anything like him.
Hang in there. Breathe, as these good friends advise.
Love you all, bigsis

Well howdy, bigsis!

I think that you might ac2ally be pleasantly surprised the next time you're around W. The tendency 2 anger is still there, but at a far lower level than even a couple of months ago. I would love 2 take credit for the progress, but it's her progress anyway, progress that she'll need 2 interact with humans for the rest of her life. It only started becoming outwardly visible when I let go of the desire 2 control our si2ation. I must have effused enough ease that she didn't feel the need 2 be so on the defensive, at least around me. Memories of the wrath hang on, though, which makes me reticent 2 do or say things that might evoke an angry reaction, but I'll keep working on that.

Working on that, and the dwelling, imagination stuff. When that stuff takes over, I feel like being vindictive, "throwing in the towel", or making some kind of disrespectful judgments. And some of those seem "easy" or justified, like RM has no integrity, that kind of thing. None of it does any real good, though, which has kept me from doing much of it this long.

♥2long

Bumping this puppy up for possible input from lostva??

It'd be really cool 2 hear any ideas you might have about my sitch, if you can...

I think you all understand my problem, here, and I hope that I'm starting 2 take in the view from a healthier perspective, 2.

The fear keeps me from saying anything until it's "2 late" or "2 much later", and then the tendency is 2 want 2 blast it all out at once, which can only result in an angry outburst in reply, and a lot of resentment back at the surface, stinking up the air.

And, then there's the other factor: The "Dwelling" simply because I opened up that file this morning with the emails that I saved last month. It brought it ALL back, the truth, the assumptions, the POISON that the thoughts brought with them...

I wish I could hang on2 the kind of real courage that lostva so beautifully showed in her own sitch. Most of the time I think I can. But then an "oppor2nity" like this comes along (heck, this is the first time any real possibility 2 end contact has happened since D-day - and now, when I look at what I just typed, I realize that's horse pucky, there've been "oppor2nities" every minute of every day for the past 12 years or more, this one just "seems" special) and I get so bloody tempted 2 "do something" 2 affect an outcome before I've put myself in a healthy state of mind 2 ac2ally be able 2 do so.

Let me cool down. ...help me cool down, okay?

-ol' 2long

So, are you saying that everything is two long but your temper, and that is 2 short?

Ha, Ha,
Just thought I would throw that in. I am not lostva, but I wanted you to know someone is reading. I wuld say something useful but I am MR mom today cauze wife is out of towne. Just got back from the Dr with son, and now get to cook dinner. ( I think I will do something a little more than hot dogs, maybe BLT's.) I tried to get back to you eariler today but then the Dr thing came up.

Anyway, it's not because I gave up on you. Promise.

SS

Hi Still!

Well, I think I just proved beyond a dadow of a shout that the ol' rollercoaster is still very much open for business!

I had 2 take a couple of hours and focus intently on doing SOMETHING ELSE 2 get my mind off this nonsense. But it worked, and I feel better right now.

Have 2 run 2 our son's open house at school... ...that's another problem that oughta distract me some more!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for checking on me though!
-ol' 2long

Feel your feelings.

Act using your principles.

Simple? Yes.

Easy? No.

Pep

Pepper:

2 right!

Feeling better 2day, thought a lot about my principles, morals, integrity. Thought a little about hers, 2, but not 2 deeply, because they're hers.

She's done with the job! ...but she'll probably "help out" with finalizing the report when she can. Don't know whether that'll involve talking 2 RM or not, but don't care anymore either. Let her figger that nonsense out. When she has, I'll be able 2 tell. For now, I think I 2k a major leap in focusing on my principles and my interactions, wants and needs better than I have before. All because of the latest rollercoaster dip. Gotta love 'em! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was amused, I must admit, 2 learn that RM still hasn't sent his stuff in, like he's promised (2 specific dates given in the past 2 weeks alone). What a goof! Now, he can join the ranks of gooves the world over that can't seem 2 pull their miserable little heads out of their effin' beautoxes!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Life goes on.

Hanta Yo!
-ol' 2long

Now Mr. Pep has asked me again about the Victorian .... what do ya want me to tell him? I said there was scaffolding and painters up your butt ... wanna talk to him ? ... I hate being the middle man! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Pep

Pep:

Sure, have him give me a call. You got my cell, right?

If I don't answer, I might be in a meeting or forgot 2 charge the damned thing, so tell him 2 by all means leave a message.

-ol' 2long

I read that story of lostva's again and I sincerely wonder how the hell she made it through all that! I don't think I've got the gumption she does... ...but then I look around me and realize I'm still here, and I'm happier - 2day at least, and that's a good start.

I had a beautiful walk in from the parking lot this morning. Not just because a gorgeous summer intern was walking in front of me and because I tweaked my knee carrying drywall up the stairs a 2ple weeks ago so I can't walk fast (so I "had" 2 follow her the whole way). And not just because it's an absolutely beautiful, clear day here 2day. But because I 2k myself another perspective view on life, the universe, and everything (42) recently.

I find that I make evolutionary leaps in thought just after my rollercoaster lows anymore. And it feels good, because I can SEE it now like I never could before. It's not just what we post back and forth - the insightful things we pull out of the NOW or the ether or whatever and share with each other. It's the "basal acceptance", the personalizing of what we learn, such that it stays with us whether we've been just reading a book by one of the "masters" or whether we've just talked 2 each other on the 4um, or even if something cruddy is going on. It's finally real.

And I still don't know what will happen. I asked myself this morning "do I care?" and realized that that is a leading question. What's important isn't who's right or wrong, who's "evolved" or educated or not. What's important is how I interact with my surroundings and the people in them right now. ...so even a 5 word exchange with a guy in the elevator this morning was precious.

My W was visibly happier when she got home yes2rday. RM hasn't sent any of the stuff he promised, and I'm certainly not surprised. I got a "glimpse" of realization from my W that he's either still trying 2 be manipulative by delaying, that he's just a twit or a fool, or he's so torn up inside over his own DV that he just can't fully function. I'm betting the latter, based on my own experiences over the past 0.0015 Ka (look that one up!).

I've decided, though, that my W must not have been talking 2 him directly this week, but rather getting this info 2nd hand, but it's still possible. I don't know, and I really don't care now. Because even if they are, maybe it will help the R fall apart. In any case, I can't do anything but hang back and watch, so long as I can remain patient and do the "lostva thang" 2 the best of my abilities.

2 wait forever would be 2 long for ol' 2long (=2damnedlong), of course. And it might wind up being something like that, ac2ally. I don't really mean "forever" but it is possible that my W will distract herself from facing her demons with this new job, or doing something else, that she'll never learn all that much from this experience - and so it might happen again. I say this from a position of contentedness, though (at this time, at least). It's an outcome that I still hold some dread over, but it's not something I can affect by banging my head against it. So, I'll just keep improving me, and let "the great spirit" deliver me wherever or 2 whomever I'm destined 2 be delivered 2. Hopefully that will be my W, but no biggie if it's not.

The open house at my son's school was interesting last night. My W couldn't make it (a 50 mile drive in traffic 2 get home from work), and I was a bit late, so I spent the time I had with 2 of his teachers - his US History teacher (he's failing that class), and his advanced placement English teacher (he's doing a remarkable job in that class - Bigsis, you'd be PROUD of him). You know what? They 2th said the same thing: he is VERY intelligent, but he won't apply himself at all unless he's captivated by what's being discussed. The History teacher is reticent 2 "approach" him, because he's afraid he might withdraw, whereas the English teacher is lively and makes it a policy of hers 2 engage her s2dents (she's also young and very pretty... ...but she's married, and... Oh Yeah! So am *I*!!). S responds well, not surprisingly, 2 the latter approach (and without having talked 2 each other about it, the his2ry teacher plans 2 try that approach and call me next week 2 tell me how it went)...

Stuff continues.
-2long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Okay, you guys are all probably out solving REAL problems this afternoon, cause I KNOW you're not really goofing off, right?

So, I'm going 2 post one of my thread-killer quotes: Another Peter Gabriel song! Surprised? I knew you would be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -2long

"Put on the dress in which you were married.
Pull down the veil til your eyes are hid.
Can you remember where we both came from?
Let us do as we did!

Look at tomorrow today
Making tomorrow today
Making tomorrow today
Making tomorrow today
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow today
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow today

Put back the photo under your window.
Put down the phone that you hold in your hand.
Put away these things that stand in between us.
Let us be what we can!
When it seems
Hopeless!
When it seems
Hopeless!

Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow today!
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow today!
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow today!

What better measure of what you were doing here,
Than what you can leave behind.
All of the children of your children's children,
Do you ever think what they're going to find?

Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Where the sacred meet the scared!
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow
Where the dreamer's dream is dared!

In each of us
A dream can burn like the sun.
Let's try it all one more time
To get this lesson learned!

Sitting up in a spaceship,
Looking down at the earth.
You wonder what they're all stuggling for?
What's it all really worth?

Making tomorrow today
Making tomorrow today
Make tomorrow
Make tomorrow

Peter Gabriel, "Make Tomorrow"