I'm back!

We got home late last night. I helped my W write her resignation email and send it off 2 the personnel dept at her work this morning. She and D headed in2 work after that.

I've been feeling pretty unusual lately, 2. I think that even MBers would have 2 admit that there is not only such a thing as unconditional love, it's often all that holds us together when trying 2 deal with infidelity. I found myself thinking, while working on the out-of-state house this past week, that there may be something 2 the "love bank" concept after all, though, because the romantic love I feel for my W is being "replaced" with a more substantial compassion for her, one that requires neither that we stay together or split apart. One that just IS.

I didn't bring any relationship literature with me, and wish I had, because I found myself becoming more judgmental than I would like 2 admit, again. I found myself dwelling 2 much on the emails I last saw 2 RM (a month and a half ago now), what they "mean" and what this new job might "mean."

In the end, though, what's important is what *I* mean 2 myself, what my family means 2 me, and how I can improve our si2ation NOW. And none of that is served by trying 2 2nd guess what my W is trying 2 do.

We had a good week, but it was tempered by stressful associations 2 work - W and D 2k some work with them, so it wasn't out of her thoughts the whole time.
Last I heard, my W had told her boss and RM how 2 get hold of each other in order 2 get the remaining report and materials re2rned. And RM had fairly quickly replied 2 her boss with ideas and plans 2 send them - so this "trip" that my W talked about taking coworker along as a chaparone 2 get the stuff in person won't be happening! I don't know the "tone" on RM's end, regarding their "friendship", but I do know that he's in a bitter DV battle over custody of their 2 sons, and that his stbxw's father is wealthy enough 2 hire a "good" lawyer. I don't know if he's thought of the potential "dirt" that continued contact with my W could give the lawyer, but it certainly is something *I* have thought about. I also don't know if my W has thought much about it, though I have asked. And, in the end, I still don't know what she intends 2 do about contact from now on, now that there is no more need for professional contact. I can only wait and see how the next few weeks play out with the new job and our M and family si2ation.

I can also ask, and am not afraid 2 do so any longer. I'm just not going 2 ask right NOW, when so much is up in the air with her. I feel a strong sense of peace. I realized that even the "negative" thoughts I had this past week about our R were more positive signs of "detachment with love" which is probably more accurately described as truly accepting her choices now, whatever they may be. Truly loving her unconditionally, whatever the "right path" for us turns out 2 be...

-ol' 2long

<small>[ August 03, 2003, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Just talked 2 spousal unit on the phone. Personnel forwarded her email 2 her boss, who didn't seem surprised at the news. New job is flying her 2 first work location this Sunday. She'll be gone 2 weeks initially.

She asked me if I'm okay, and I said something like sure. I believe I sounded supportive. I certainly am regarding the job change, at least. But the "contact" issue hasn't been addressed, so I don't know what, if anything, she has planned.

-ol' 2long

2long,
Long time no see. Missed your happy smiling face around the boards.

I didn't bring any relationship literature with me, and wish I had, because I found myself becoming more judgmental than I would like 2 admit, again. I found myself dwelling 2 much on the emails I last saw 2 RM (a month and a half ago now), what they "mean" and what this new job might "mean."

I knew I should have sent you another book. I just knew it.

Just talked 2 spousal unit on the phone. Personnel forwarded her email 2 her boss, who didn't seem surprised at the news. New job is flying her 2 first work location this Sunday. She'll be gone 2 weeks initially. She asked me if I'm okay, and I said something like sure. I believe I sounded supportive. I certainly am regarding the job change, at least. But the "contact" issue hasn't been addressed, so I don't know what, if anything, she has planned.-ol' 2long

I think Pepper should hit you with that special laminated 2x4. ( I live too far away, or I would.)

Be a little more honest. You do have some reservations. Tell her that you have them and what they are. Tell her why you have them.

" You asked me this morning how I feel ................... I have thought about it a little more and I find I do have some apprehension about it.....................I know I will miss you and I think I understand some of the reasons why you are doing this, but I wish we didn't have to be apart these next two weeks.................I worry that you have other motives for taking this job, and I wonder what they might be.....................I am feeling distant these days even sometimes when you are here, I worry about how I might feel when you are gone......................other stuff 2long feels, that he ought to say."

Don't be afraid of telling her your feelings. Worst she can do is stomp you into the ground, and you have been through worse the last two years.

We'll be around to help patch you up if you need it.

SS

2L;
Give her a bit of time now, my friend. These changes in her life will be stressful at first. Let her catch her breath before you attmpt to begin to answer that question. Know this; she'll be stuggling with it too, and for her, it'll be much more disturbing and difficult than for you.
Love, Compassion...

SS:

I *do* need 2 tell her those things, but is this week the right one 2 do so in?

Before the call, I would have said no in answer 2 that 2uestion. Now, I think she would be "okay" with my concerns being voiced. Still, she does have a lot on her mind, and I'm not sure I ac2ally "need" 2 do anything...

...like the train wreck metaphor: I've been watching it in very, very slow motion for over a year and a half now, with the "train" of the A teetering almost imperceptably the whole time (imperceptable without standing back and taking in the big pic2re that is). The train has now definitely left the tracks, and is arcing gracefully through the air on a ballistic trajectory 2 the canyon floor below. Should I critique the fall on "form," or just watch the show and be around 2 pick up the pieces afterward?

It's gonna crash no matter what I do. ...but maybe the metaphor is incomplete. Maybe *I* am riding in one of the cars and should make a move 2 get off?

-2long

SC:

That's what I have been inclined 2 do. I worry a little, though, about ME losing patience and tossing in the towel if she doesn't take initiative 2ward recovery. But only a little. It's a lot "easier" 2 do "nothing" in this case, than 2 take any action. ...and the wreck continues.

Time. It's hard, though, 2 know when 2 take action versus let the "divine plan" unfold on it's own. I can see the plan unfolding before my eyes. But like the train wreck, I would like 2 know the details of the outome NOW. More evidence of my humanity! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But it remains a subtle difference, in my view, between "interfering with the plan" by trying 2 control the outcome, and simply telling her my concerns by being radically honest with her about how I feel. But like my response 2 her initially telling me about the job offer, if I were 2 have told her anything that wasn't supportive of her right 2 make her own choices, it would have sounded controlling.

-2long

I don't think you need to have a R talk, I do think when she asks you ought to say more than you did. That's why she asked.

SS

PS,
Being honest to me is not always saying everyting you feel, but you, being human need to say it sometimes, and when she asks is a really good time.

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

and one more thing,
I am not thinking totally along the same lines as you and spacecase. I am not suggesting you tell her all the big questions burning in your heart. Just your feelings.

You'll miss her.
You do have some misgivings, though you support her right to choose.
Get use to sharing your little feelings and the big ones are easier to talk about. Did you know that men have feeings too? '
I heard that somwewhere. It may be true.

SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SS:

You're right. She did ask. I owe her an honest answer.

When I get down 2 it, the problem for me isn't the new job, or even the old one. The problem is the continued R with RM. It is NOT just a friendship, at least it wasn't when she wrote those emails. I believe that she believes that it IS a friendship, though, and so even the things she said in those emails, though she hasn't independently revealed all of what she said 2 in them 2 me, are thoughts of hers about M that she was relaying 2 a friend... ...well, except perhaps for the "I miss you" remark...

I've thought about answering her 2uestions, and do believe I need 2 answer them. In doing so, I think I will need 2 finally tell her that I did see the emails, so I know that, as recently as a month and a half ago, she felt it necessary 2 keep the personal contact secret. As for whether I feel like I have the strength 2 tell her? 2 "blow my cover" so 2 speak? And that's assuming I'll ever have that kind of oppor2nity again 2 read her hotmail - I doubt it, as that time was a fluke. We use Macs, and I'm not aware of any spyware that works on them, assuming I wanted 2 try it at this point - I don't.

My biggest concern now is that I will prefer 2 "give up" if this results in an argument (because, as you know, if the contact is still secretive, she'll react with anger). Because, if the EA is continuing (meaning, she can't let him go), I am pretty sure I'm done. Not maliciously, though.

-2long

SS:

I responded before reading your next post. I agree, there's not that much different in what you and SC suggested.

...and following my own train of thought in my last post *would be* riding one of those cars in2 the canyon!

-2long

One of the things I've picked up from all the parenting classes and therapy we've done while trying to raise our son .....

we were told.....

Don't make a liar out of yourself

>>>Say what you mean (after the prerequisite mulling things over)

>>>Follow through as promised

This is not controlling the other person (who may make their choices after considering their options).... it's controlling ourselves and taking responsibility for our own well being.

2Long .... it is not unloving to say what you mean and follow through. It is a sign of strength and integrity.

As Hellen Wheels said ... "We seek progress, not perfection".

Pep

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS ..... guilty people generally react with anger when confronted with the ugly reality of their guilt.

....... so what ?

Let her be angry. You can stay calm as she rages. Ever consider that option ?

Her anger won't kill her. Her anger won't kill you.

Breathe through her outburst, meditating a single phrase ... "I am serene. I am OK." Repeat as often as necessary.

Are you afraid of her anger ? It seems so, Why is that? Are you insecure ?

Pep

Another PS .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

When our boy was still here, he went to an Al-a-teen meeting. We searched his room when he was out. We found a bottle of vodka. I poured it down the drain.

When he got home and learned of our discovery .... he raged with anger. How "DARE" we invade his privacy. We "OWE" him an explaination and an apology! We "OWE" him a replacement bottle! .....LOL Yeah <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , like that's gonna happen.

So what. He was guilty. He got caught. He got pissed.

We remained serene. It was a beautiful thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ..... I knew we were better people for the experience.

Tolerating her secret email betrayal is not about loving her. It's about your own fear and insecurity.

I hope this was a gentle 2X4 .... one made of balloons.

Pep

<small>[ July 28, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

2long,

You are getting some good advice here and you have always been great with advice to me so I figured I'd chime in, with some general agreement.

First, yes, absolutely, you don't need to get into a full blown relationship discussion with W about her 2 weeks in the field, but you absolutely do owe it to her to let her know of your misgivings.

Would that be a good point to bring up the emails as well? I'm not sure. What's everyone else think? Would that be too much too fast? It can be argued that the fact that 2l saw those emails that is helping to fuel his discomfort regarding these 2 weeks away. Do you agree, 2l? I mean, it might make more sense to her if she knows where your fears are coming from.

Again, easier said than done, but you just need to find the right time and gentle, non threatening tone to convey all this. You love her, you want to trust her, you are just struggling a bit some days...You are searching for the line between being loving and being controlling, unfortunately given your present situation you need to lean towards that controlling side a bit more than you'd like, and she has to allow that in order for you to be comfortable.

Sending you wishes of peace!

ALS

Hm...

Yes, the advice is good. And yes, I do have insecurities. I certainly have a ripe imagination, 2, and have 2 be careful that I'm not following through on something that isn't real, or in this case taking action based on emails a month and a half old that may not reflect where my W is now emotionally.

Case in point: When W and D got home from work (only 2 more days and she's DONE!), my W was on her cell phone, and walked around the yard while she was talking. She waved 2 me, and that was it. I heard enough of the convo 2 know it was about the crap she's dealing with at work, and enough 2 make me suspicious that she was talking 2 RM. And if you remember, she had handed over the "RM problem" 2 her boss week before last, so she has no professional need 2 talk 2 him herself anymore. Anyway, I went upstairs and tried 2 concentrate on a new magazine that came in the mail. Couldn't stop thinking about the phone call. Got all a'flutter over the whole thing. Even2ally started making dinner, it 2k that long for her 2 finish and come inside.

...when she did, she said she was talking 2 her coworker, who wasn't in the office yesterday but out in the field... ...so they had a lot of catching up 2 do. I felt like a demented idiot, and I WAS.

When I realized I was "dwelling" yet again, and stopped it and focused on what we were saying 2 each other, what she was doing, showing me in body language, we had a very nice evening. She went 2 bed before me because it was a tiring day, but stayed awake and with the light on waiting for me. Nothing "happened" last night, other than the beautiful smile and snuggles she gave me when I came 2 bed. It was nice.

We did talk about RM's results, and how she feels about him lately came up. He had told her boss that he'd have all the remaining data files and materials returned 2 them by the end of last week. No show. Her boss asked her if she had any ideas, and she replied with no, she's tried everything she can think of. She had offered, in her resignation email, 2 help with finalizing the report when she can, but we talked about this and agreed that she won't have the time and doesn't need 2 get dragged through this any longer. The company needs 2 take full responsibility 2 the client for any and all further delays. Any involvement on my W's part will only make her look responsible for them.

She starts the new job Sunday. She said it was ironic that she's starting work in the city where RM was just a week and a half ago for his uncle's funeral, saying something like "if it had been this weekend, maybe I could have gotten the data files from him then." I responded with "it's not your problem anymore, it's the company's. And personally, I'm glad he won't be there when you are." She quickly pointed out she said it's ironic, not that she wanted 2 see him. She knows I'm not comfortable with them seeing each other in person any time soon (though I might be okay with it, say, when the sun enters its red giant phase in several billion years).

It was interesting 2 observe her thoughts about him changing. I didn't hear any "friend" characterizations. More approaching disdain for his inability 2 complete his task for a project for which all other outside input was completed 6 months ago. I think she's finally starting 2 see his true colors, and I KNOW she's feeling a lot better now that she's leaving this job. I've been trying 2 verbalize how this looks from my viewpoint, and think I have a description that makes sense: It's like she's physically removing herself from the fog because she recognizes she has difficulty doing so emotionally.

She has hopes for the new job, but is aware that it might not pan out for her. She talked a lot about "my family", not even just "our son", like she nearly always did until very recently, so there's evidence of rapid evolution of thought going on there. And that's why I wonder if the emails-issue might be better relegated 2 history, at least as far as dredging up the details of the discovery is concerned (because, remember, I talked with her about all the issues in the emails) - maybe it's time 2 kick back with a barley soda in one hand and a bag of flavofibes in the other and enjoy the rest of the train wreck?

Am I insecure? Sure, I'll freely admit that I continue 2 have insecurities. I also feel better able than ever before, daily, 2 talk 2 her about them. But last night I clearly easily got in2 "dwelling mode" again, and I need 2 be vigilant with that, lest I do so AND have an argument about the emails or something like that at the same time. I'm not very good at controlling myself with the dwelling, and I want 2 work on that some more.

I'm ac2ally looking forward 2 phone calls and emails while she's away at work the next 2ple of weeks, plus looking forward 2 the time apart for quiet reflection (for 2th of us). I'm optimistic about that. I'm not going 2 try 2 guess whether this new job will be "right" for her or not. I'm willing 2 let her determine that for herself.

...and I bet, if she thinks about it, she'll realize that when George Elliot said "It's never 2 late 2 be what you might have been", she was probably referring 2 truly substantial things, like being a person of integrity, honor, and morality.

Somebody's life IS about 2 change,
-ol' 2long

I agree that honesty is important and necessary, always.

However, we must remember that what we say is not always what is heard, what we mean is not always what comes out. After all, perception is reality, and my only concern about an immediate response is that your W is going through some difficult moments in her life & career, and it is LIKELY that what you say and mean may not be taken as they are meant AT THIS TIME. So by all means, tell her what you feel, I only suggest you think about her ability to receive the intended message when you do.

See .... this is where I see room for improvement 2L.
You said...

"And I have to be careful that I'm not following through something that isn't real, or in this case taking action based on emails a month and a half old that may not reflect where my W is now emotionally."

"something that isn't real" .... the emails were real.

"a month and a half old" ..... because you delayed confronting her with her deception for this long. They were fresh emails when you first read them, but you did not deal with them when they were fresh, and now you say it is possibly too late?

"may not reflect where my W is now emotionally" .... You make your decisions based on where you think your W is emotionally? Really? You may want to consider making your decisions based on where YOU are emotionally instead. Wouldn't that be more honest, and take out the guess work?

Pep

Pepper:

"something that isn't real" .... the emails were real."

Yes they were. And you will recall that there were 2 very radically different interpretations of their meaning. I agreed with yours, but when I talked 2 my W about the issues in them, I realized she was following the opposite interpretation - that my W considered RM a close friend that she could confide in, even about our marital problems. Now, you and I know that's not constructive (at best), particularly with a former A partner. I've done what I believe I can 2 talk about the issues in the emails, with the goal of defusing them and correcting the behaviors that led 2 them, rather than invalidating them and labeling her as "bad" in the process (unintentionally or otherwise).

I need a lot of work in that area, though.

"a month and a half old" ..... because you delayed confronting her with her deception for this long. They were fresh emails when you first read them, but you did not deal with them when they were fresh, and now you say it is possibly too late?"

Hm... Well, I DID deal with the issues within them. I also dealt with the fact that she did have that phone convo with him that's referred 2 in the emails. The only thing I didn't deal with was the emails themselves. I guess, though, that I don't think it's 2 late. I'm just not sure when the right time 2 talk about the discovery is right. Really. I need a lot of work in that area, 2.

"may not reflect where my W is now emotionally" .... You make your decisions based on where you think your W is emotionally? Really? You may want to consider making your decisions based on where YOU are emotionally instead. Wouldn't that be more honest, and take out the guess work?"

Yes it would. But where I have been emotionally in the past 2ple of weeks is just plain tired of all of this. I wanted instant results (like always, right?). I was just as inclined 2 offer 2 work out an amicable DV 2 get this all over with as I was 2 confront her about the emails. I felt just as much like my "love bank" was truly drained as I felt an irrevocable unconditional love for her (one that would be as content DV'd as M'd 2 her). Throughout, I've told her that her life and everything she does in it is her choice, but that there are certain things (RM) that I won't accomodate. With time, I've done this with less and less LBing between us. This next few weeks, the ball is very much in her court, in my view.

...but I may send her a draft NC letter on OUR behalf 2 RM for her comment...

Meanwhile, the arc continues.

-2long.

Like everyone else, I read some of my past and current situation in your posts.

Here is something H andI have learned to change for the better. My H used to get mad about something I said or did, and he would NOT confront me with it at the time. Instead, he would chew on it, build resentment about it, and then spew out some nasty comment to me .... waaaay later, and I was unknowingly dealing with a past issue, and the current "false problem" was a ruse. It was very confusing/

It now works better for us. He deals with whatever his issue is the same day, or the next day if he needs more time to reflect. And visa versa. We do that even if we think the other may get angry.

It takes awhile to adjust to this honesty and this pattern of keeping things current, but it works ever so much better.

If your new ideal is to strive to "live in the now" .... I support you.

Fewer chances for ongoing resentments and second guessing.

Pep

Pepper:

Oh yes! My W and I do very much the same thing you described!!!! Yikes! It's probably the root of our mess, entirely.

It's hard, it's scary, dealing with our "issues" in the moment. I always worry that my W will get angry and we'll postpone recovery by being radically honest about them, and she clearly fears the very same thing.

I'm pretty far from perfect. Still not finished yet!

-2long