I agree, you should snoop, she is better at it, and so are you.

I still wonder if she is scared, scared of reality, scared of facing the truth. She has not gone to church in a while. Does she think by attending that she is being hypocritcal? Maybe she feels she does not deserve to go to church. It sounds to me like she is keeping herself so busy, that she does not have to face and deal with things. She can keep herself as busy as she wants, reality has a way of creeping in on you. That may have been the crying, maybe she felt that she should have progressed more personally and has not. She will not progress until she faces reality, deals with reality and accepts that you really want to make the M work.

She said she did not trust you, what does she not trust, that you will be there a year from now? Honestly, it seems to me like she is trying to sabatoge things. Maybe she feels she does not deserve what she has because of what she did. As you can tell, alot of speculation because all we know is what you tell us. Even you don't know what is going on in her head.

Has she ever considered posting here? Getting feedback from others who have been there? If she did, is she afraid you would read her thread? If she asked you to not, read her thread, could you respect it and avoid it so she could be totally honest here and get some reall honest feedback.

Hey Sue. Thanks for the post. Let me address what you said and asked here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, you should snoop, she is better at it, and so are you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am REAL good at it. Just not sure that I want to go full force into that again. It takes a lot to do, and is very mentally and emotionally draining. Besides, for now, MOST of the evidence definitely protrays that she is being faithful. If I really started smelling something, I might ramp things up. I dont know...I'm going to think on this this weekend, while she is away at school (she has started a one weekend a month RN to BSN at a university about 100 miles from here...a girlfriend nurse of hers and my wife share a ride down and share a hotel room).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still wonder if she is scared, scared of reality, scared of facing the truth.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I do too. Part of me thinks that she cant get close because she is afraid of what MIGHT happen. I mean, I was pretty much all over her, so to speak, during the affair. Their relationship had NO alone time...I knew everything! So, she feels "violated" by that and feels I lack no boundaries or privacy. Although I obviously dont agree with what she has surmised, I believe this may be a large part of this mess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has not gone to church in a while. Does she think by attending that she is being hypocritcal? Maybe she feels she does not deserve to go to church.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doubtful. She just has a huge problem with God right now. She has been doing a lot of studying over the last month, with tapes and books from some former churches of ours, concerning marriage. She has always been a traditionalist. But she is having a HUGE problem with me now. Seems that if it was anyone else, she would want to give her husband the wife that is called for. For me, since I did a lot of the damage that led to her feeling like she wanted out, it is hard for her to want to let me be the man, as she says she wants all the time. So, I KNOW what she wants. But when it cimes to ME, she doesnt seem to want to give me that chance to be that again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds to me like she is keeping herself so busy, that she does not have to face and deal with things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can keep herself as busy as she wants, reality has a way of creeping in on you. That may have been the crying, maybe she felt that she should have progressed more personally and has not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will not progress until she faces reality, deals with reality and accepts that you really want to make the M work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She knows that I want to make it work. She really does know that. But she says she doesnt have those kind of feelings anymore, and feels that now that she has been beack for 5 1/2 months, that we might be incompatible. How is that? For 8 1/2 years we werent. She says that she has changed. Okay. So what doe she want? She cant say. One minute, she acts like having no one is what she wants, the next is the traditional Christian husband. I really dont know what she wants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She said she did not trust you, what does she not trust, that you will be there a year from now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she doesnt trust me that I will be who I am, that I wont fall back into those last few years where I was lost in my problems and neglected her. She also is afraid that I am mean now, that the things I did while she was out in her A (snooping, the bad LBs I said to her, etc) are who I am and she just seems to not get past them. She still seems to want to bring up things I did in the past...from before the A...and from during the A. Of course, she really cant recount me doing any of these things since she came home in April.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, it seems to me like she is trying to sabatoge things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, me too. Much easier to do this than face your demons and to trust again. Make me the bad guy, the one who leaves. Then she can boo-hoo to everyone. And when she wakes up later, she will realize she blew it...but she can blame me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe she feels she does not deserve what she has because of what she did. As you can tell, alot of speculation because all we know is what you tell us. Even you don't know what is going on in her head.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No I do not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has she ever considered posting here?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Cant get her to. She hates the computer and hates being on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Getting feedback from others who have been there? If she did, is she afraid you would read her thread? If she asked you to not, read her thread, could you respect it and avoid it so she could be totally honest here and get some reall honest feedback.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would stay away from her thread if she asked. I would love for her to come on here, but she wont. So, I have tried to get her to go to counseling, but she is always too busy.

So, I am stuck. In the A, we all knew how the fog worked. This is different...and I am not sure how to get her off the dime. But I do know this, it is nearly impossible for me to just sit back and get no ENs met for much longer.

In His arms.

MM,

I think now is the time for a heavy dose of SKM's Chronicles. I am pretty sure I have posted these to you before, but I would like you to read SKM's evolution again.

You are at 51/2 months of recovery and the end of OM. Look where SKM was at this time. I think you may be expecting a little too much too soon.

I do have suspicions about her actions, BUT given the time in recovery, she may not be far off the normal route. By the way, SKM lives in your part of the country, had a child with her H, and the last time I saw them they were doing great. She is a wonderful lady and her H is really really a nice guy.

I think that you need to focus on your children and take good care of them. Often that is a way to a woman's heart. Your W hasn't done such a great job of being a mother, so you had better be a great father to them. But, it will also show her your changes and how you see and value life. So take good care of them, and give this some time. I know it hurts, but it does take time.

God Bless,

JL

Mortarman your W sure has picked one heck of a stressful profession, RN. Check this article in this months Reader's Digest titled 'Condition: Critical'. It is one scary read and a real eye opener as to what RN's are going thru this moment.

Mortarman -

I'm way, way far behind you in terms of recovery (right now I'm in forced Plan A while my lawyer and I try to get my daughter protected...). But I have to say that your W sounds like she's just simply tired. This is all a LOT of work, and I bet she sometimes feels like you've been the drill sergeant from hell! (Which is not an image that most women associate with a man they want to make love to them...)

SF is the canary in the coal mine, dude. When it goes to heck, it doesn't mean your marriage is going to die the next day, even if you feel like it's going to. Your wife is giving clear, clear, CLEAR signals that you are NOT MEETING HER NEEDS. Not the way she needs them met, even if you feel like you're giving 150% every day, all day.

My advice? Relax. Just... relax. Someone here said you should remember to expect God to satisfy your needs, not your wife. If that doesn't get you to relax, nothing will! If you can't make demands of God, why'n'heck are you trying to make 'em of your wife? (And yes, you are making demands! Probably ones that are coming across as SDs, too.)

The important thing, from your wife's point of view, is that it takes a whole lot of pressure off of her if you don't have that air of expectation (and it is- there, even if you try to hide it).

Remember way back when you were just getting to know each other? You probably made each other laugh. You were relaxed around each other. And you probably didn't jump into bed until you were comfortable with each other. Really, really comfortable with each other.

You know how to make her grin, how to make her laugh, and how to relax her completely after a hard day, just by being the good Mortarman that you are and were for years and years. Don't go crazy with wants and needs and all that stuff. You lived without it for months while you were in Plan B. Guess what? Just 'cause your W is home now doesn't mean it's any more available now than it was!

So get back to that! Pretend you're not married, that you're just starting to date again. Don't kiss her even if you want to. Be tentative about holding hands. END THE PHYSICAL STUFF BEFORE SHE WANTS IT TO END! Leave her wanting more, not wishing you'd stop bugging her.

Is it hard on you? Oh, yea verily, so difficult! But this is one area where the more you wait while building up the tension, the better!

Oh, and that whole Satan/Adam/Eve thing? Sounds like a severe DJ, to me. If I had a H who reacted to me that way, we'd probably be on the outs for weeks, if not months.

Sorry to see you struggling again, MM. Looking at the bigger picture, it is clear that your wife committed again to be a mother, and to live as a family, but she surely didn’t commit to being your partner. Why is that? Why doesn’t she want to take that risk? What is holding her back? What is she afraid of? I really don’t know what it is, but there *is* something. Playing devil’s advocate a bit – my wife was in a similar phase at some point, basically admitting to a selfish ego-trip and being there for the child, but commitment to me, our marriage? No way, José. And guess why not – yes, her heart was with someone else. Could it be that your wife hasn’t let go completely of OM? Maybe not of OM per se, but of the “good” feelings that came with the affair? Maybe she is afraid of losing this warm afterglow feeling? Anyhow. I seriously suggest that your wife seeks counselling – as you say, she is stuck, and so is your marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J of HJK:
<strong>Oh, and that whole Satan/Adam/Eve thing? Sounds like a severe DJ, to me. If I had a H who reacted to me that way, we'd probably be on the outs for weeks, if not months.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And just what is a "DJ?" Do you mean LOVE BUSTER? If so, he didn't say those things to his wife so it couldn't be a "LB." He told us about us here. Nothing severe about that.

MM,

I wish I had some words of advice for you. You've given me so many, but I am nowhere near where you are and am pretty screwed up myself with my situation. It makes me wonder how you have the strength to offer so much to so many others while you are personally having difficulties. From what I have read here though, you have been given some good info.

Just wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and following you. I am wishing, hoping and praying for the best for you.
NW

MM,

I feel so humbled at the thought of giving you advice. However, it seems like you need to do a PLAN A. Well, I would suggest YOUR PLAN for meeting your wife's needs. I would try to listen to what she is attempting to communicate. Remember you can only change yourself and not her. If she's not motivated to do therapy, it won't work for her.

Have you thought about a session for yourself with Steve? I bet he would be extremely helpful for you at this point.

Rebuilding trust on both parts takes time.

What she does not realize is, that everything you did during the A, is normal BS behavior. Don't tell her that. She would not believe you anyway

As far as counseling, and starting her own thread, well, when she is ready. The only thing I can think why she is avoiding any form of help is because she is not ready to face the past.

The concept of being incompatable, I believe comes because she is trying to convice herself. Give her time. As frustrating as this may be, she needs to know that you value her as a person, even with her faults. You can tell her, but that does not carry as much weight as showing her in day to day living

MM,

I'm going to ask you a very fundamental question which may seem simple, but isn't. Having successfully reached intimacy in my marriage again, I found that the key element to a successful recovery is the Rule of Time. So are you spending 15 hours a week with your wife, using that time to fulfill each other's most important emotional needs? Rebuilding intimacy is impossible without spending the essential amount of time....and so many people fall into old patterns and forget about it. Do you spend Sunday evenings figuring out when you will put aside time with each other during the next week?...away from kids and friends and just on your own....or has your life quietly fallen into a pattern of neglecting each other again? Inject some fun and ditch the relationship talks for a while.

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

I agree with STAR.

I think the "DJ" was meant to represent "disrespectful judgement" NOT love buster.... a DJ is a lovebuster, of course.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for clearing that up, Pep, I really scratched my empty little head over that one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MM: All this sounds VERY familiar - and I do NOT mean it sounds like another A (although that is possible). I don't know if you ever participated or lurked on a thread in JFO that was the longest thread ever. The thread was started by a guy called "Persisent", and his wife acted like this for something like a year or 18 months. Just wanted to be roommates. It was painful to watch, at times. She was getting a fair number of her MIEN's filed through work, so she was pretty resistant.

My recollection is that things did not turn around until he was making preparations for Plan B or Plan D, because he was just exhausted. He did, at that point, make it clear to his W that he was at the end of his rope. Plan A had become a lifestyle, sort of, and he was in it much too long. What was even worse is that about the first two years of Plan A she was having an affair, and he did not know.

Anyway, there were a couple of parallels that come to mind. One is that she could not forgive him for some real or imagined injuries in the past. The thing about this (particularly my "real or imagined" comment) is that several people (including Gary Smalley and Penny Tupy) have taught me that women in particular can be very sensitive to certain things that men will not notice at all. So it seems to us that they are making a big deal about nothing. Smalley illustrates this with a pebble and a rock. He says to us, it may feel like someone dropped a pebble on our toe - one so small it doesn't even hurt, in fact we can hardly feel it. But, to our wives, the same thing may feel like we dropped a rock on their foot, breaking a couple of bones. In the book, "If Only He Knew" Smalley lists over 100 things NOT to do to your wife. According to my wife, (she went through the list and and checked them off) I did only two of them. Hey, no one's perfect, right? Yet, that was enough to put the emotional distance between us that led to her affair. If I recall correctly, she never said a word of protest about them when they happened, either, and I had no clue that they bothered her. Anyway, I found the book a good complement to Harley's.

Please do not think I am implying the dishwasher is the real issue. I jsut think that somewhere along the line you have done something which she has found terribly hurtful and for which you are either not repentant or not listening to her very well (your during affair tactics?) or there is something else. I know that figuring out what it is can be difficult, especially since she may not even know.

Another parallel (maybe): P's wife would not let him meet her more intimate emotinal needs - i.e. time with daughter, OK, physical affection - no. He had to work up from the less-intimate needs to the more-intimate.

Another possible parallel: He was not completely honest about how his wife's actions made him feel. He spent a lot of time venting here, when it would have been better if he had been communicating with her (as much as she would let him). But, there is a big difference between talking about how you feel, and about what you are thinking. Nix on sharing negative thoughts about your situation or her, but she needs to know where you are emotionally. This may seem paradoxical, because you will be exposing your weaknesses, and she has said/implied she wants a strong man, but trust me, sharing vulnerabilities is good, and will draw you closer emotionally. That will help combat the emotional distance problem. Conversation can be VERY intimate (do not think sexual/sensual, just intimate), so this can be a way to climb up that intimacy scale on non-intimate vs. intimate needs.

One last thought: one of the reasons my wife never considered leaving me was because of what kind of father I was, and the domestic support I offered her. These were not intimate needs, but they were important. If the choice had been lose that or lose the OM, she would have lost the OM. It was those things that kept her engaged (even if just barely) when our intimacy was crap. Which meant we were still in contact when she came around on the intimacy questions. I think that parallel's P's experience, as well.

Oh yeah, one other thing: A certain poster who was too long in plan A found that when she went radical on the POJA, things finally started to improve. As in saying "I am not enthusiastic about that." and not doing ANYTHING until she had negotiated a satisfactory exchange for whatever her H wanted to do. As in: I am not enthusiastic about cooking dinner, or going to a movie, or cleaning the house or feeding the children or ANYTHING. Just a thought.

Sorry to hear you situation Mortarman. You've given me so much great advice and seeing the stages that you've gone through are a great help in finding where my future may lead.

I can only think from reading your post that this has little to nothing to do with you. But is the continuing internal struggle your wife is going through.

I think she is affraid to trust her own feelings as she has showed herself that she really doesn't understand herself. Remeber she first thought the marriage and your feelings were not real on some level, so she found the OM and thought those feelings were real then found out that they were incorrect. She's likely been in years of personal conffusion.

The actions she's taken to satisfy her own selfesh needs only brought her shame, pain and all the other negative emotions in her life. I think she still lost.

I also think she may be affraid to take this final step in trusting her marriage out of fear that she will go through more emotional turmoil or hurt you further.

Be yourself and keep helping your wife heal. Tell her that your beside her hand in hand.

"MY WIFE WON"T GO TO CHURCH YET"

Well I'm not one for scriptures but I do remeber hearing something along the lines of "if she won't go to Church may be bring the Church to her"

Have one or two couples that your wife feels comfortable around come to your house for dinner or even got out a few times. No marriage talk and no Church talk, just let your wife become comfortable and reconnect with some Church members.

Then in time suggest that you go to Church and meet those same friends telling your wife that if she needs to leave part way though then thats what you will do. Baby Steps. Just a thought.

MM,

You didn't answer my question, but I'd like to expand on it a bit anyway. I went WAYYYYY back and read your posts about your Plan B and the beginning of your recovery. I'd like to make a couple observations about those things....that I think relate to the situation you are currently in.

First of all...you say that your wife has now stated that the reason she came home, was because of the children....and that you have no reason to believe otherwise. But that is not true. Before she returned home, she had several conversations with her mother about how she was falling back "in love" with you. She also had conversations with you when she first returned about how well your Plan A worked, and how the changes you made drew her to you.

So why, now that she is home, and you are trying to navigate your way through recovery does it seem that things are falling apart again? Well, I'm not an expert, but I'll try to offer what I can by way of my humble opinion.

When people come to MB because of an infidelity problem....one of the greatest gifts they receive is a "plan". We've got plan A. And we've got plan B. They are pretty well defined. We know what to do...and what not to do. The recovery plan is not as well defined...mainly because it is so complex. It begins with the conditions that were set in the Plan B....what ever they are. It sounds as though your wife felt as though she was falling in love with you, and was very interested in doing her homework, etc. She also seemed interested from her discussions with you about fulfilling your need for honesty and openess...giving you information about her affair. And then the issue of sex comes up....a big need for both of you....which I'll discuss later.

Most people who come up with a recovery plan....include no contact of course, openess and honesty, counseling, and work on the marriage. Where many people fail from my observation is to inject time and fun. Marital recovery becomes a big fat serious chore...the exact opposite of what their clandestine relationships were like. If it doesn't start out that way, somehow....it drifts into it. Marriage becomes an obligation and not the joy that it can be. The old patterns fall back into place. The old resentment starts to build and it goes stale and seems hollow again.

Now let's talk about sex....which seems to be the achilles heel in your recovery and is what fuels the "roommate" scenario. Sex is way up there on both of your lists on ENs. It is I suspect, one of the most important ways each of you establishes intimacy. And what has happened....well....you have a huge barrier up that she can't cross. Because you saw her performing/saying things to the OM, she no longer has the freedom to please you in the way that she knows you liked. As a woman who enjoys sex (and I understand there are that many of us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) doing things to my husband, seeing his excitement...the excitement that I caused....is what excites me. That passion is what cements our intimacy.

Mortarman, I hate to say this....but this is your hurdle to cross. You have made sex a guilt ground that your wife cannot live in. She cannot be intimate with you because you have put her at arms length....tied her hands...given her boundaries that if she cannot break will desexualize the experience for her. This is your fight...your hill to climb. If you could tell her you want it....to do it to you...to remake the experience for both of you....sex will come out of the box it is trapped in and you won't just be roommates anymore.

Lastly, I want to mention the Rule of Time again. With your military career, and her nursing...both demanding jobs....I suspect that you don't even get close to fifteen hours a week. This is the most neglected part of recovery. Fix it. Use that time to fulfill your most important emtional needs...and I hope that includes a reopening of the sex issue. I also hope it includes some fun. FS is up there....so go to Las Vegas!!! Do some exciting and exhillarating things with your wife.

Your recovery is getting bogged down in the mundane issues that many people seek to escape by having affairs. You've worked too long and too hard to ever let that happen.

Hope this helps.