Bramblerose,

WELL-DONE! I am astounded at the clarity you've provided here. And it's so well articulated. Bravo. You've helped more than one of us here today. Thank you.

Nat

<small>[ August 24, 2003, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: I'm Natalie ]</small>

I second the thank-you to Bramble Rose. Where have you been hiding Bramble Rose? We've needed you.

neversuspected,

My note will be short, but with all the wonderful input you've gotten already, you won't need much more.

I've been through what you're enduring, our D day was 5 years ago, (I posted to you previously) and you are indeed fortunate to be at MB.

Just sending a hug, a "there, there," and prayers. Yes, the pain is like being slashed with knives. Good for you, that you have already gotten some medication. Remember, you are not crazy. Don't believe it for a minute.

Your entire history is being rewritten by your H in his mind. He is rationalizing. He is delusional. You can't rescue him. You can only attach your own oxygen mask (think of an airplane safety drill being delivered by the stewardess) to keep from passing out yourself.

Watch your health, baby yourself with manicures and pedicures and facials (it's not trivial right now; it could be essential to your mental health.)

Don't pig out on junk or candy; eat healthy every morning especially. Get exercise. Find a walking buddy or turn on one of the exercise channels on the TV and join the instructor.

And come here to post, read, vent. There are angels here to support you.

Good morning! First, I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your replies. Even though I&#8217;m not answering them point by point, I am reading and rereading them and they are helping me enormously.

Thank you Bramble-Rose especially for explaining that this affair is about needs being met. One of you said that I should stop trying to figure out who he loves more, that different needs are being met by me and by her, and I know that&#8217;s true, but you all know how I feel. I want to believe that the love he and I shared, maybe still share?, is different from their love, even though I know he says he loves her, at least RIGHT NOW. At the same time, and I know I&#8217;m being so hardheaded about this, I can&#8217;t call that relationship a fantasy because it&#8217;s too real to him, at least RIGHT NOW. So if it turns out to be a fantasy I will be the most joyous woman, but until he says that, understanding that it&#8217;s about ENs and SNs gives me something to grasp. Also, I read SAA but I think I must have been so emotionally blacked out that it didn&#8217;t sink in. I have to read it again and I will.

Bramble-Rose, you are a Godsend!

To the people who caution me about my mother and stepfather, again, I recognize I am a hardheaded woman, but I need you to stop. First, the advice they have given me has been exactly the advice I have received here. Exactly. Show him you love him, listen to him without screaming, let him know you are willing to work on yourself and the marriage, but if he wants to be with that woman, he doesn&#8217;t get you. What is so different between their advice and the Harleys? Do you honestly believe that these people who love me are sitting in my livingroom telling me that my husbands affair is OK in some way? You have no idea who these people are, and right now they are my strongest support system. If I find out they are secretly patting my husband on the back so that they feel &#8220;justified&#8221; by something they did years ago, I&#8217;ll let you know!!! But to tell me that their view of my husband&#8217;s affair is somehow slanted because of their past, to me, is truly insulting, especially since their advice matches yours exactly.

Also, I feel like if I was diagnosed with cancer, I&#8217;m not the kind of person who would only talk to doctors. I&#8217;d talk to people who had cancer. I&#8217;m talking to you here, people who have saved their marriage, and I need to talk to people who did not. I need to know all the possibilities and reasons. Maybe that&#8217;s an effect of my father&#8217;s alcoholism &#8211; a need to be able to prepare for the worst &#8211; but I need that. My stepfathers&#8217; first marriage was nothing like my marriage to my husband, so actually, I have hope.

I appreciate the WSs posts, too. If any OPs have something to tell me, then go ahead. I may not like it, but I need all angles.

My H and I spent yesterday afternoon together. It was rough, very rough, but we talked about our sexlife, and how he felt about it. He said something that devastated me, but I&#8217;m learning how to treat what he says as &#8220;fog talk&#8221; and not take it all to heart. I asked him why he felt our sexlife wasn&#8217;t very active, and he said, &#8220;I feel like I love you like a sister or a best friend.&#8221; Well, I hated the sister part, but the best friend part still has possibility. I asked him if he felt differently about HER. He said, yes, it&#8217;s different. I didn&#8217;t ask anything further because I couldn&#8217;t take it at the moment, but I told him I would love to create a passionate, steamy, wild sex life between us! He raised his eyes and smiled when I said that!

I went to Al-Anon last night and it was wonderful. There are meetings every night so I&#8217;ll go as much as possible. I shared about my H&#8217;s affair, got a sponsor immediately, and for the first time since this happened, felt like I was going to make it. The pain is still here, of course, but I will survive.

I need to help my parents with the kids right now. My H did not yet say he was ready to give up OW&#8230; I didn&#8217;t push him last night. I am giving him until this weekend, with limited but supportive talk to me during the week, ( I think that&#8217;s what is recommended here as well) and by then I hope I will have the strength to go to Plan B.

Again, thank you for helping me. I hope I can help someone here someday. I have to work today so I will need to be strong and concentrate when it seems impossible!

Thank you.

ns,

Just for clarification, I think what everyone is telling you isn't that the relationship itself is a fantasy, or that the feelings aren't strong. But it is BASED on fantasy and lies. In other words, the foundation is very weak so that it cannot stand on its own. The fog is what makes them believe that this is a solid "real" relationship.

This is why less than 3% of relationships that start as affairs lead to enduring marriages.

Fog is no fun. Part of the fog mentality is that the WS won't believe they're a bad person, so they justify the A by imagining that the problems in the marriage are much worse than they are. You're doing the right thing by not taking too much stock in the things he says. He believes them now, but that doesn't make them true.

NS,
You are doing very, very well. As I read your posts I see every one of the thoughts I had during my H's A and his ongoing contact after D-day (there were many after the first, but I don't count them up) Hang in there. The journey is tough, but you will come out with some great insights, knowledge and wisdom about yourself, life, relationships and your H.

I relate to the best friend or sister thing especially. H said that so many times I got sick. Now that their A has died just about completely, things are different. I think many times WS have an immature view of what creates passion. What they crave and enjoy is the blush of new love high when you don't really know the person, you project onto them the qualities you are looking for and you love how you reflected by them--how they make you feel. That is NOT what mature, real love is. True passion comes in knowing your partner, faults and all. It comes from the continued DECISION to love and honor each other and going through all the bad times and good times. I decided that if the other kind of "love" was what my H had to have in his life, fine, but I wanted more. I knew he would go from partner to partner looking for that high until he figured it out.

It has been a very long road, but we are back together. At first, a lot of it was based on our daughter, only 2 yrs old. Then as he got distance from the OW and saw the WHOLE person (that took 2 Plan B separations, one three months) and realized that she didn't do a better job of meeting his needs overall, he started to decide what he wanted. I FINALLY realized that HE had to choose, of his own free will. You already see that.

He recently told me that he knows he loves me, that the whole A was a fantasy. He knows a M is a lot work and admits he wouldn't do it if he weren't with me. He chose to marry me and wants us together. WE still have a long way to go. I keep working on myself and we are in counseling. I hope that he will get a better understanding of what real love is, but I suspect deep down he already gets it, just doesn't want to fully admit it or he'd have a hell of a lot of guilt for the A that I don't think he knows/is afraid of processing.

Anyway, you are doing all the right things. There is a lot in your situation that seems hopeful, but one major thing I have learned in all of this is to give up my attachment to specific outcomes, to let go, do my part and only my part and see what happens. I trust in God that I will be taken care of, not matter the outcome of my M.

Keep following your gut regarding your parents and your whole situation. Only you know and feel what is going on. We all offer advice based on our own experiences, but each person's journey is their own. You learn your own lessons in your own time, frustrating and painful as that may be.

Thinking of you.

Good morning. I&#8217;m shaking so hard I can barely type but here goes.

I received a letter from OW yesterday. Here it is. (I left out some of it and am paraphrasing just the important things. It was two pages long)

Dear ______,

I know there&#8217;s probably nothing I can say that you&#8217;d believe, but I&#8217;m truly sorry for all of the pain this has caused you. If I could turn back time I&#8217;d do so many things different but it&#8217;s too late for that.

My husband was a wonderful guy until I married him. After about a year he started turning into an emotional abuser. I come from a family that doesn&#8217;t accept divorce and I thought for a long time it was my fault anyway. After 6 years of living like that I was desperate and finally went to therapy. I begged him and begged him to go but he refused. I know now I was vulnerable for an affair. Going home to my husband was miserable. If I&#8217;d seen it coming I&#8217;d have stopped it before it happened and I don&#8217;t know that you can believe what I&#8217;m saying but I didn&#8217;t have any ideas about how affairs start so I didn&#8217;t understand that I was in an affair with ______ even before we slept together. I knew we got along great and were close but to me affairs were things that happen in motel rooms. I didn&#8217;t understand the friendship part that happens first.

I know you have all of our emails so there&#8217;s nothing more I can say except I&#8217;m sorry.

I told this to _____ (your husband) on Friday. I took my vacation time from my job and gave my two weeks notice. I&#8217;m not going back to my husband but I also requested from _____ (your husband) that he stop contact with me. No calls or emails. My marriage is unsalvageable but I don&#8217;t think yours is. I do love _______, I need to be upfront and honest with you that I love him, but I told him that I always wanted my husband go to therapy with me and he at least owes that to you and your family. I promise you I won&#8217;t be contacting him anymore.
*********

That self-righteous, sanctimonious, arrogant, evil witch!!! How dare she tell my husband what he owes me after screwing him for four years behind my back! I&#8217;m shaking so hard I don&#8217;t know how to think straight! Did she just Plan B him before I did? Is this her Plan B letter? Did she beat me to it?

I called H last night and asked him if he knew about this all weekend. He was surprised she wrote to me and was silent at first but admitted he knew. I couldn&#8217;t help it. I hung up on him and thank God went to an alanon meeting and talked to my sponsor. Was he crying so hard because SHE left him? Did he need me to hold him because of HER? What can I trust? What am I supposed to think?

I talked to my H this weekend about counseling but told him this weekend but left it openended. I mean, I would have run to counseling if he wanted to leave OW and be with me. But NOW, would he go because SHE told him to????

My stepfather told me that right my H doesn&#8217;t have a clue about anything. He doesn&#8217;t know who he is, who he was, what he&#8217;s done or why. He didn&#8217;t tell me to pity him &#8211; not that I could anyway &#8211; but I probably can&#8217;t expect too many coherent answers from him right now.

Advice? How do you respond to an OWs Plan B????

Thank you.

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: neversuspected ]</small>

ns,

I just woke up and don't have much coherent thought yet, but figured it's better to at least respond and not make sense than ignore your post.

1. DON'T let her push your buttons this way. One letter and she has you upset. Don't give her this much power. Continue doing whatever you were planning to do BEFORE receiving this.

2. Don't believe a word she says. She's had to husbands taking care of her all this time and now that she realizes she hurt YOU, she's going to leave both of them. Yeah, right. She's so conditioned to fog by now that she may even believe herself.

Hang in there!

Dobie

I'm on my way out the door to work so I can't give you a long response.

I can totally understand your extreme hurt - once again your husband lied, and now everything that he has done that gave you a little hope is apparently because of what she told him to do.

I was honest with you - the relationship was real and so were the feelings. He ISN'T in love with you and he IS in love with her. If she's really dumped him, then he is making sure his backup gal is still in place. He's in a VERY selfish place right now.

I know you want to hate her. Go ahead - BUT recognize that this is NOT about her. It's about HIM. She could not have done a darn thing with your husband without his WILLING CONSENT. IF she really means her letter...and IF she really sticks to it, then she's right...your marriage might have a chance.

Most people on these boards would give anything to have a letter that says "I'm sorry, and as a result, I will be stopping contact with your husband". IF she meant it, she just saved you MONTHS of fresh agnony and lies while the affair continued.

The problem is, you can't count on OW or your husband to stick to anything right now. Only time will tell.

I know you want your husband have been the one to dump her - and to come back to you because he loves you - but the REALITY is, that wasn't going to happen anyway.

Did you really want to save your marriage?

Or did you just want to have your pride restored?

Because the 2 are mutually exclusive. You don't get to be RIGHT and get to be married, at least not the way you were hoping.

Right now, your husband's world is falling apart. His reality, which was fantasy, has just fallen to pieces before his eyes.

Let him fall. Keep on target with your short plan A and Plan B - this drama ain't over, and you should NOT change anything you were doing.

Thank you again Bramble Rose!

You are right. My pride is so shattered and I'm trying to salvage whatever is left. It's all so confusing. I do know my husband is responsible, especially since I saw his emails to her! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And what you say makes perfect sense, even though I don't like it.

I'm going to call my sponsor at 9 AM and in the meantime, try to stay calm and keep the focus on me.

I never thought of it that so many women here would love to get a letter like that. I'm sorry if I'm being such a baby. None of it feels good and it's all so new so it's hard to know what's going on. Thanks for your "tough love". I need it.

Just wanted to add one more word of caution...

If the OW really plan B's him.....he won't have had a chance to see her "warts". Which means he's going to keep his fantasy image of what a perfect woman she was.

This doesn't mean you cant recover your marriage or that he can't fall in love with you again.

It's just another added complication.

Either you get to endure the agony of an ongoing affair, or his withdrawal from the "perfect soulmate".

(((((hugs)))))

Just keep coming back. These princples work if you work them too!

NS,

Have you done the reading of the articles on this site??? If not, this IS the time for you to do so. You are about to enter a very delicate period with your H and how YOU handle things can make a huge difference in the outcome and the speed with which your life takes its course.

BR was dead right, this letter IS exactly what you want and what you need IF she is serious. AND she may well be but withdrawal will be hard on her and your H. So 'some' backsliding is to be expected. Not to be received with joy by you but expected.

I know it is hard for you to see ANY good in anything right now. But, now is the time for you to get yourself centered in your beliefs, your goals, and heart. I know it seems impossible, but you need to really calm down. You are not picking up very well what people are saying to you here, which suggests that even if your H did everything perfectly to restore the marriage you would very likely misinterpret it. THat is NOT good.

You say you are logical. OK! I'll buy that. But for logic to be correctly applied you need to know all of the basic theorems upon which it is based. Start learning them. Start to learn the steps that you and your H will go through emotionally. Learn what to expect at different junctures of recovery, and withdrawal. Learn what love really is.

I will offer you something to consider. Your H, his OW, and even you keep talking about love as a feeling. It is not that, it is a verb. It is an action and in successful marriages it goes along with commitment, devotion, etc. You know that I am sure, but you are worrying if he "loved" her more. It is a meaningless concern. This is where the term "fog" comes back in. When one is talking about "feelings" one is NOT talking about a "logical" thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So stop worrying about the comparisons right now. I know much easier said than done. But what you are going to come to realize is that what you want is not an "I feel..." type statement from your H. You are going to want statements coupled with consistent actions. Those actions are going to tell you what you need to know.

You are very new into this, and I realize as does everyone here that you and your emotions are very raw. Hence my last admonition. Don't say much. Come here to vent, but don't say much. Just listen and watch. Don't worry you will get your say, but what is important now are the following things:

1. What your H says.

2. What your H does.

3. Your decision to work on this marriage or not.

Those are the big three right now. He cannot ease your pain. He cannot make it right. There are no magic bullets. There is time, patience, and understanding. If you give it those and you both decide to work on the marriage, then finally will come forgiveness.

NS, calm down, this is NOT a sprint, it is a long process with many twists and turns. Don't try to control so much as realize you have input into this and you have control of yourself and little else. But, you DO influence a great many things including your H.

Let your calmness, your love, and your good moral character speak for you. It will be heard.

God Bless,

JL

You are fortunate and blessed in getting a lot of wisdom and attention from MB Veterans. You must have touched their hearts in someway. Please listen to them. This approach really works.

I have had to learn the hard way what Just Learning is saying about patience. I'm struggling with that now as I think my WS is working towards ending his A. I have to hold back, wait and Let Go. It is hard but necessary.

I'm sorry if I insulted you in my thoughts about your mother and stepfather. I did not mean to be judgmental. You certainly do not need that now at this most difficult time in your life.

Take Care. Believe me, I know exactly what you are going through. That's one of the values of this forum. We really can empathize with your pain and suffering.

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I have been where you are now. (7 years recovered marriage)

My story is not important right now. Yours is.

Just want you to know, my journaling saved me. You are a writer too. Journal. Save copies of your MB threads. They can be part of your journal also.

I STRONGLY support a VERY VERY brief Plan A .... and then a very strong Plan B.

It's your best chance to see how much your WH will fight for you and your marriage .... which was also important for me as a BW.

YOU do not want to be #2 .... the second choice. I get it. Me too.

I am NOT my H's 2nd choice. I made him go over hurdles to get me back.

Plan B is NOT about revenge, it is about saving your love for your H .... it is about allowing your H to fully 100% feel what losing YOU and your marriage will feel like.

WH needs to writhe in pain over the possibility of losing YOU. This trumps the grief at losing the fantasy with the OW ....

I don't want to argue with you about whether or not their A was "real" .... their feelings were/are real, but not the relationship. We can discuss those fine points later, when your feet are not standing on quicksand.

Journal .... it literally saved my life!

God Bless ..... and Al-anon ROCKS!!!!! My DH is 7 years sober/AA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS~~~~~ When you think of OW .... use your imagination and visualize her as a bug. A fly buzzzzzzzing around your head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Shoo-o-o-o her away, or swat her flat with a fly swatter. A bug .... always worked for me!

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Never Suspected...

I hate to sound so negative, but I received the same type of e-mail from STBXH's OW shortly after D-Day (May 2002) and several time after that. I heard the same thing from her via telephone and instant messenger (as recently as May 2003). STBXH is now in his country of origin living with OW (Since June 2003). Be very suspicious of this e-mail - especially if you H knew about its contents beforehand. My STBXH and OW drafted the e-mails together.

Instead, focus on Plan A....

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-42
STBXH-44
DS - 22 months
Status - I filed for Divorce on 3rd Wedding Anniversary. STBXH is apparently happy living w/OW.

Hi. I came home for lunch today just so I could read this board!

First, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your replies. I know I need to calm down and I've been saying the serenity prayer and the antidepressants have definitely kicked in. I just don't know how anybody can stay calm when every day brings a brand new painful surprise! I know I'm not the only one going through this, but I guess I'm quite prolific?

I keep going back to this, but I have to keep writing it out. I read 1000 pages of their emails (well I didn't read all of them..). It's like having a document of almost every day of their lives. If I had come to this site before getting it, maybe I wouldn't have read it. But I did.

So he knew when she was PMSing because apparently she had moodswings and when he got stressed and she had PMS, they fought. I read all about it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> What I'm trying to say is that I read in their own words how they dealt with their bad sides, so I find no comfort in believing they only showed each other their best qualities and all of the wisdom you are trying to teach me.

I am being told that it's important to forget about all of that and focus on this moment, and I'm trying to do that. With every breath I take. It helps to write about it so maybe I need to journal privately rather than post it all here? I know you are saying I don't want to listen to all of you. I'm trying.

My H asked if he could come over tonight and keep talking. I said yes. My parents will take the kids to a movie. He said he misses them so much. They are 10 and 8 and not stupid, and they know mommy and daddy are having some problems, but I would never keep them from him or make it hard for them to see him.

Gotta go back to work. Thanks for being here.

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: neversuspected ]</small>

Don't forget .... your H's feelings belong to him. Don't own any of them, let him deal with his feelings, and you yours.

The rollercoaster will amaze you!

Pep

NS,

Oh please. Just because they worked out her PMS together, doesn't mean he has really seen her bad side.

The bad side is when you are living day in and day out, year after year, and you go through weeks when you don't give a monkey's about "working things out." When you let it "all hang out." Not when you can go home to a wifey when things get tough with OW. It's dealing with each other when you'd really rather let each other drop into a deep, dark hole. I very much doubt they've been through that yet.

Good morning. Although there&#8217;s nothing good about it. I&#8217;ll try to make this short.

H came over last night. The next painful surprise is that he&#8217;s been in counseling for 5 months. Good of him to tell me, huh? He said he went because he knew he couldn&#8217;t go on living that double life but he didn&#8217;t know how to end the affair. The counselor is pretty known around here for being a good marriage counselor. Said they made a deal that they&#8217;d do individual counseling with the intent of bringing me in as soon as H came to understanding of how to end affair. Well I guess it&#8217;s the other way around. The counseling convinced him that he needs to leave me. He told me that I can come to his next appointment tomorrow night for a two hour session and maybe the counselor can explain things he can&#8217;t. I told him I wanted him to explain. What on earth can&#8217;t he explain to me? Is it impossible to tell my why he is so unhappy here? He finally told me that he feels like the things that make me a great mom are the things that basically make him crazy. In a nutshell, I&#8217;m rigid. Not frigid, rigid. I need life to be planned and scheduled. I don&#8217;t do spontenaity well. He never feels like we can have fun unless it&#8217;s planned into my schedule. I manage a great house but seem to have no desire to have a relationship with him. And on and on. I tried to be as calm as possible. I told him I am more than willing to learn how to be more spontaneous and that since this is the first time he told me wouldn&#8217;t it be fair to at least give me a chance before leaving our family? He said he has told me so many times in so many ways but I didn&#8217;t like listening, and that he doesn&#8217;t believe that it&#8217;s something I can change.

He told me he would of course keep paying for everything he pays for now. We both work but my H is the rich and successful one. I suppose I need to see a lawyer.

I&#8217;m sure many of you are going to say he&#8217;ll come back as soon as he realizes that his needs are not being met out there. I have many reactions to that. First, is that really true in all cases? Second &#8211; well, I have problems with a lot of the concepts here but as my H said, I guess I don&#8217;t like to listen. Someone told me to follow my gut and I guess what I&#8217;m saying is that since I read those emails between them my gut has told me that this relationship with her is big. Really big. My gut told me he was leaving me from the start.

Anyway, I&#8217;m going to focus on Alanon and my children. My friend who told me about this site told me there is a great divorce support group she goes to and you don&#8217;t have to be divorcing to attend, separation is fine, and that there&#8217;s a private offshoot of BWs who meet for coffee or at private homes and have a hotline phone tree in place. Someone usually volunteers to take late night calls and all that.

Thanks for all of your advice anyway. I know this doesn&#8217;t mean he&#8217;s leaving for good, but I now have to decide if I go to his counseling or start my own or both or what. He said he and I should talk to the kids together. I suppose he planned that with his counselor too??
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

again I dont have time to respond as thoroughly as I'd like...

Fog translation: Your husband is leaving so he can be with the OW.

We'll soon see if OW meant her letter to you, as it has obviously forced him to act. Don't be surprised to find out that her letter was a manipulation, meant to get your husband to leave.

Remember what I said about the affair not being over yet?

The rest of what he told you is probably some truth, mixed in with a bunch of fog.

That's why we said stay on course with a short Plan A, and then a very strict Plan B.

I can't tell you how this is all going to play out. But at the moment your husband is pretty much behaving from the script in the WS Handbook. But I can tell you that my husband left me to be with his OW. I couldn't change, he didn't hate me, he loved me like a sister, blah blah blah. We were seperated for 18 months. He learned that his "perfect soulmate" had more than a few warts during those 18 months.

I survived. So can you.

Yes, if he is leaving, go see an attorney and get yourself protected legally. You don't have to file for divorce. Just because your husband says he'll pay for everything doesn't mean he will. Make sure you know your legal options and rights.

Hold your head high, and take care of yourself.

Ask yourself again....do you want this marriage? Because this is not going to be over quickly and you are in for a very rough rollercoaster ride.

And just to prepare you for the next piece of babble that will come out of your husband's mouth:

It's still adultery - even if you are separated. He'll tell you that it isn't.

((((hugs))))