***"This was (sort-a) meant to be funny ..... but, what the heck ARE your boundaries about this?"***

***Simply stated: No Rat Meat. No more. Never again.***

And since she just left to go to a place where she is sure to see him, what will you do about this boundary being broken?

From reading your posts, I get the impression that you do not want to go to Plan B. I can understand -- for many reasons, I could not do it either, much as I should have done it long ago. But it sounds like you intend to hold out as long as you can in Plan A and then, if your wife still refuses to go NC with RatMeat, just move to Plan D and be done with it.

Is your wife aware of this? It sure sounds to me like she is completely in the dark about your plans and just goes along thinking you are okay and everything is fine. Sure, she knows you don't like RatMeat, but so what? You're tolerating it without a fuss, and things are good between you and your wife at home, so it must not be a big deal anymore.

What happened to the Rule of Honesty?

You have my apologies in advance if I am wrong.

Pepper:

Okay, that was clear!

SiSF: It's good 2 hear from you again! How are you and your W doing?

Yours and Pepper's points are well-taken, I assure you. I will work on my ability 2 clearly state my boundaries so that they don't sound like an ultimatum. All the more so because I could very easily make an ultimatum and not feel lost in the process.

But I need RM gone from our lives. It's that simple.

-2long

2Long I have a hypothesis and it's that SOME BS don't go to Plan B because they want to lose all the love they have for their WS so that when they decide to divorce them, they won't suffer from any second thoughts. Are you sure you don't fall into this category of BS?

TMCM .... interesting thouight.

P

pb:

No, you're not wrong, really. I do "plan" 2 stay in plan A until such time as we are recovered or DV'd. I can't do plan B at this time or for the next few years while we deal with rebuilding our house. Unless we sell it in the condition it's in at a HUGE loss (not a loss, really, but at a much lower "gain" than if the house were restored). We do most of the work on it ourselves, so we'd be in each others' faces whether we stay M'd or DV'd.

You are dead on about the honesty, though. It has 2 come from both sides, 2. I need 2 find the strength 2 be candid about the emails I saw 2 months ago, and I need her 2 be candid about any and all communication between them while it's happening, not when she feels it's "safe" 2 tell me something. At the same time, I have 2 continue 2 make it "safe" for her 2 tell me these things. Obviously, I need 2 make the first move. Telling her I saw those emails will be hard 2 do, and it will be burning possibly the last "chip" I have 2 verify whether secret contact has continued. Not that it's easy, because we use Macs and keystroke software isn't available for Macs. I only saw those emails because she didn't realize that all I had 2 do was hit the back button a few times on IE, because she had used my computer 2 check her mail. It would have 2 be a similarly "for2itous" circumstance for me 2 be able 2 read her mail agin, assuming I felt the need 2.

And there's the other thing. Progress lately has been monumental. We're closer than ever before. If anything, she's a lot more nervous that she might lose me than I am that I might lose her anymore. That's a complete 2rnaround for us.

But I continue 2 speculate. I haven't heard from her yet, and should probably get off this thing and do something 2 distract me from worries or whatever. And wait for her call.

-2long

2ble

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

My question still remains, though: Is your wife fully aware that you intend to move directly to Plan D when *you* decide you can't tolerate her actions anymore?

Have you specifically told her this so you are sure she understands?

Or does she honestly think you are prepared to go on the way you are forever, because you've never stated otherwise beyond "It bugs me when you have contact with RatMeat?"

And my other question remains, too: What will you do now that she has broken your boundary concerning physical contact with RatMeat?

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: psycho_b ]</small>

2MCM:

That is an interesting thought, like Pepper observed. I've thought about that be4, 2. Do I believe that's what I'm doing? Heck, I don't know. Maybe. Certainly I've felt that way in the past. But mostly I don't buy in2 the MB "Lovebanks" exactly, nor do I believe it's her responsibility 2 meet MY needs per se. I take responsibility for my own happiness and I expect her 2 do the same for hers. We're "clicking" again, and I suppose one could say "yeah, but that's because you're meeting each others' needs", and maybe they'd be right. But I believe we're doing so because we WANT 2, because it makes US happy, not because it's a responsibility.

In effect, I view what *I* am doing, not necessarily what other non-plan B'er BSs are doing, as replacing our own conditional love that allowed us 2 get in2 the mess we're in with something more substantial. My "lovebank" has not been draining, at least the one with the real deal in it.

-2long

pb:

"My question still remains, though: Is your wife fully aware that you intend to move directly to Plan D when *you* decide you can't tolerate her actions anymore?"

I think so. Probably more than I'm aware of it. I'm less inclined 2 DV than I was a few months ago.

"Have you specifically told her this so you are sure she understands?"

No. Don't suppose I have.

"Or does she honestly think you are prepared to go on the way you are forever, because you've never stated otherwise beyond "It bugs me when you have contact with RatMeat?""

Well, I've certainly been telling her that it more than bugs me. I don't want 2 badger her either, though, or she may choose 2 go back underground.

"And my other question remains, too: What will you do now that she has broken your boundary concerning physical contact with RatMeat?""

Well, I don't know that she has broken that boundary yet. Remember, she and RM work in a very small field of research, and there's no way they can avoid being in the same place 2gether indefinitely. I have told her all along that I recognize that they will see each other at professional meetings for the rest of their careers, but I've also told her that it's possible 2 do that without having personal contact or being alone 2gether. That boundary gets reiterated from time 2 time, and I don't waffle on it, though it might sound like that. In the end, it's still her decision what she wants 2 do and what she feels is appropriate. I have my choices 2, but implementing any based on assumptions doesn't do me any good.

-2long

***My question still remains, though: Is your wife fully aware that you intend to move directly to Plan D when *you* decide you can't tolerate her actions anymore?"***

***I think so. Probably more than I'm aware of it. I'm less inclined 2 DV than I was a few months ago.***

***"Have you specifically told her this so you are sure she understands?"***

***No. Don't suppose I have.***

I'm shaking my head over this. 2Long, you are *not* playing fair. This the most blatantly passive-aggressive thing I think I've ever seen.
Now, I don't blame you one bit for being angry and hurt at the way your wife has treated you, but look at it this way:

The first thing any BS is told is to judge the WS only by their actions, not necessarily their words. But what have your actions said to your wife? "I love you unconditionally, and because of that I will find a way to tolerate whatever you do no matter how uncomfortable it is for me."

Forget about what you've *said* to her. Your *actions* have said, "Do whatever you want to do. I can deal with it."

She is just as much in the dark as a betrayed spouse, and that's how she's going to feel when you have finally had enough -- and you will, because you are as human as the rest of us -- and you spring a D-I-V-O-R-C-E on her, giving her a kiss on the forehead before you tell her you love her and walk away forever.

I am in no way defending her actions, but she has a right to know what your intentions really are. Keeping her in the dark about them is not "unconditional love." It's a passive-aggressive tactic to protect yourself and make her pay in the end.

This is no way to treat someone you claim to love. She may be a WS, and her actions with her boyfriend and the disrespect she has for her husband are truly disgusting, but she still deserves the truth.

I don't know how you think you can recover with a secret of this size hanging between the two of you.

I may be a psycho_b***h, but there sure isn't any secret about how I feel about anything.

pb:

"Forget about what you've *said* to her. Your *actions* have said, "Do whatever you want to do. I can deal with it.""

Well, I think my actions have said "do whatever you believe you want 2 do, and I will do the same." And my words have said "I can't control you. You have 2 make your own decisions in life. I need you 2 know though, that I can't live with you if you're intending on having a relationship with RM."

Now, it's possible that she's rationalized that this "friendship" is not a "relationship". I intend 2 find out.

I just got "the call" from her. She just left his workplace. So, she was there for several hours, probably. She sounded a bit rushed (picking up munchies and a soda for the drive 2 the office, out of cell reception, and it was HOT in the car), but she sounded "alright." I asked her how the meeting went, and she said it was okay and she'd tell me more about it later.

So, I still don't know much, other than she's just seen her former A partner. I think that if anything inappropriate happened, I'd know.

I talked a bit with my MIL about what's been happening lately, and she believes that the A is over and won't reignite. I hope so. We'll see.

-2long

It's weird. All this fretting I did anyway, and the short phone convo just got me down like another D-day.

i oughta just get off here and force myself 2 focus on something else. Because probably nothing happened anyway!

Damn.
-2long

Oh shoot, I don't know how to open this.

Do I worry about 2long?

Yes.

Do I think he ought to do this or that?

I don't know. I do think he could do some things better, but I think I could also.

I think he is improving.

Based on what he says, I think his wife is doing better too. If there is steady, sustained improvement then perhaps he should keep doing what he is doing.

I believe in NC but I know that some that post here say that they never got NC but that they recovered anyway. I know the odds are lower with continued contact, but I tend to encourage 2long instead of anything else that could sound like a DJ to him.

I think maybe he should listen to Pepperband a little more, because I know she has his best interrest at heart. Sometimes it is good to do things we are not comfortable with, even if it is hard to do.

2long,

Don't get to thinking about things until she calls you back. Plaster a wall or argue with the contractor or something, but don't go off on a tangent (in your mind) because it doesn't help.

You have the two extremes down pretty good, and I really hope it leans to the getting sick one, but I don't know any more than you do.

I don't know how to close it either.

SS

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Well, SS, I can still "hope" that the meeting made my W sick, but I just dont' know. Me, on the other hand, I sholudn't have had lunch 2day. It keeps wanting back out.

Pepper: You posted this over on the new Leilana thread: I'm asking myself these 2uestions, 2.

"What part of myself would be sacrificed by continuing to fight for this marriage?"

A: I guess that my feeling all along is that with 2ls like unconditional love, Schnarch's crucibles, and Tolle's Power of Now, I wouldn't be sacrificing anything that I shouldn't be sacrificing for personal growth anyway. If my W likes the changes and follows suit, then great. But if we end up DV'd, then the sacrifice isn't somehow no longer worth it.

"Is that sacrificed part of myself ... is it something that is healthy to be without, or not?"

A: And so, here, I'm thinking that my answer above should have been my insecurities. I have definitely sacrificed them with a big, fat butcher knife. And I'm better off without them. Am I "secure" now? Not entirely, or I wouldn't be posting here. So there's plenty of work 2 do still.

"Is whatever part of me I would sacrifice .. is it something essential for my own survival and/or happiness?"

A: And per the above [contrived?] answers of mine, I would say that the sacrifice was essential, not the insecurities.

Still gulping lunch down, though.
-2long

Chinese any time you are ready.

I know a little mexican place too.

I think a lot of the questions Pep and I (and others) ask has to do with that lunch trying to get out. I don't think it's the lunch.

When those feelings are that intense you can't say "It's just my insecurities." At least I don't think you can. When I got married, I made promises that W has a right to expect me to keep. I think your W made those promises too, but she came back and said esentnially that she didn't or if she did, she didn't want to, and only did it because you made her. That doesn't sound quite right to me.

I think you and I and all of us have right to expect those promises to be kept. I hope you tell her about your feelings of today, and also I hope that you ask for her help to never have them again.

Your sense of humor masks lots of other stuff. People are pulling for you. I believe you will feel better in the morning. Hugs until then.

Can't believe I said that, but it stands.

SS

Okay, so here's what happened.

She called me from the hotel she's staying at near the office, which is a long drive from where RM works and where she met him 2day. I asked her how the meeting went, and she said "it was really hard". I told her that it was hard for me, 2. I didn't sleep well last night and had a hard time holding on2 lunch 2day. She said she had a restless night's sleep last night 2.

She didn't tell me much about the meeting with RM, so I did ask. She said she was there for about 4 hours, and he helped her put 2gether some reference materials she needs for the job (but she's going 2 have 2 get xeroxes of some originals an get them back 2 him... $h!t!). She ac2ally did talk 2 him about her new company wanting him 2 do some of the work for them - by leaving his current job and moving 2 one of the 2 offices my W would be at (she'd be at 2th of them at various times). Thankfully, he can't leave where he lives now because he has joint cus2dy of his 2 sons with his STBXW. It would also be a rather s2pid move on his part. Another reason he can't change jobs is that he's trying 2 get his PhD done, and has an October deadline 2 finish, plus one of his advisors here in CA is giving him a hard time (My W had him for some classes, and I know him - he IS a pain in the neck [and one of at least 3 adulterous professors in their department]).

More thankfully, my W doesn't think this job will work out at all for her either, and so she may not be staying at it for much longer. She wants 2 come home.

If she's home, we have a better chance at maybe, just maybe finally starting some kind of real recovery. I know, maybe what we've been doing lately is some sort of recovery of our own design, but right now I'm just not all that happy about them being 2gether 2day - regardless of how it went - and I really need the time 2 talk and work with her alone 2 truly find out if we both really want 2 focus on our M or dwell on s2pid contrived work-related excuses 2 stay in contact when neither one of them says they want it.

What a bunch of horse$h!t.

I told her I care very much about her, and got "noises" like she feels the same, but no ILYs (we had a tough time with the phone reception, though. It was an annoyance, and she did try driving around town 2 find a place where her cell got reception. Her room charges multiple appendages for outgoing calls, 2).

I'll feel better in the morning, I swear.
-2long

Okay, I've talked 2 her some more, and if I wasn't such a dolt sometimes, I'd put the fact that she's called me six times since she left on Sunday in2 a little bit of a perspective here.

I'm feeling like a jerk a bit, because here she is out of state, on a new job, being bugged by former coworkers about the OLD job, fretting about rebuilding our house and family, just had a very uncomfortable meeting with RM yes2rday that wasn't her idea, got asked by a new coworker who knows RM "how's Mrs Meat and the kids?" ...and I had 2 overdo the "telling her my feelings" thing and made her cry. And she's 2 far away for me 2 give her a hug <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Sometimes, folks, we just have 2 back off a bit on our expectations that we KNOW we have no right 2 have but have anyway... ...and no, I'm not blaming anyone for this. I did it all by myself.

love, especially 2 my W,
-ol' 2long

How do you over do telling feelings?

Give us something we can work with here........

Are you OK today?

Do you think she is?

What else can I ask???

How bout this -

Got that speach written yet?

What have you gotten done on the house while you were SUPPOSED to be working on it. I hope you haven't been spending all your time feeling down and not getting proper work done.

I can't go on like this with a sraight face much longer, I know I'll crack up. I better leave now.

SS

PS, one more comment, then I'll go.
Okay, I've talked 2 her some more, and if I wasn't such a dolt sometimes, I'd put the fact that she's called me six times since she left on Sunday in2 a little bit of a perspective here.

If you had told us that she had called six times, we could have put in perspective for you, but noooooo, you had to leave out important facts.

OK, now I'm done.

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi SS. Before I answer your 2uestions, let me get this out. I'm going 2 be a little hard on myself, and maybe on MB methods a bit in the process. But bear with me. Kick my beautox if you see fit, but this is what I think:

I've just gone through one of those experiences where my imagination got the better of me and I hurt my W with my assumptions. I still want nothing more than 2 drop what I'm doing, run 2 her and give a big apologetic hug for doing that. I don't even pretend 2 believe she would understand why I'd be doing that. I think it was an enlightening experience for me, but the point is that it was MINE, though how I feel about myself and my thought processes very definitely has an effect on how I treat those around me, AND how you fine people feel about me, my W, life, the universe and everything.

I guess that each time an "event" like this happens, an event that's largely or even entirely constructed within my own head, I get better at preventing such an occurrence happening again. I really believe that this time was as "serious" as it was precisely because my W saw RM the other day for the first time in such a long time, and it was 2 easy for my victim/ego 2 take control of my thinking. YES, I *do remember* her "clone" remark being repeated the other day (though that wasn't the word she used that time). But I also felt HER "universe" very deeply when I made her cry the other day, so I know that the desire 2 be cloned is not a big one now, relative 2 the other things she'd like 2 sort out about her life.

In the end, it doesn't matter whether there's anything for me 2 be "suspicious of" or feel "justified" about or not. The question is, and will forever be: What kind of relationship do I want with this woman who is currently (and hopefully will for a long time continue 2 be) my W? Forget her friendships or her choices, I can't control them and shouldn't want 2.

The more I realize those points, the more I believe I can truly love my W the way she deserves 2 be loved, so that she can make her own choices about what kind of relationship she wants with me.

This process I've chosen will NOT allow me 2 be a victim anymore, should some trigger like this occur sometime in the fu2re. I can only control me, and I'm still 2uite capable of getting way the hell out of control even now. It is my responsibility to MYSELF 2 fix THAT. Nothing else. The rest of life, the universe, and everything can then unfold, but only if my ego gets the f*** out of the way!

Communication is the key. I won't do plan B, but would do plan D precisely because if I can't find a way 2 communicate with my W on an effective, personally spiri2al level after 29 years 2gether, then I shouldn't be married 2 her.

End of discussion,
-2long

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

"communication is the key"

then....

"end of discussion"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />