SS: Now 2 your 2uestions.

"How do you over do telling feelings?"

Easy. I do it all the time. What I mean is, communication with another life form, say a human being in this case, is very much dependent on the feedback we get. If we're "pushing" such that it's hurting the other person 2 hear what we're saying, maybe we need 2 back off a bit and allow time for clarification (verbally or otherwise, like letting the other person go off and cogitate) 2 set in. I didn't do that. I followed what I "interpreted" as recommendations from here and elsewhere 2 tell my W how I felt when she was in a very uncomfortable si2ation for her. I added several straws and pulverized the camel's back. That amounts 2 cruelty, and I feel terrible even now thinking about it.

Dealing with other life forms is delicate. Will always be, because we can't just read each others' minds.

"Give us something we can work with here........"

I hope I just did!? But let me know if I haven't!

"Are you OK today?"

The truth? Of course you want the truth! ;o) Well, 2 tell you the truth? I feel almost giddy with excitement, I feel so good 2day!

"Do you think she is?"

No, I don't. She's got a lot on her mind right now, and you know what? The one positive thing that I truly believe has been on her mind is that WE will be okay. And I dashed those hopes on the rocks the other day by "overdoing" telling her my feelings about her meeting with RM.

"What else can I ask???"

How 'bout, "What time is it?" I think I could answer that, if I were asked.

"How bout this -

Got that speach written yet?"

You're strict! NO, I don't! I need 2 get off the computer, submit my Mars images from last night, and get in 2 work and DO THAT!

"What have you gotten done on the house while you were SUPPOSED to be working on it. I hope you haven't been spending all your time feeling down and not getting proper work done."

I have been spending 9/4ths of my time feeling down and not getting proper work done, SS. I'm sorry! But that's going 2 change, as soon as I log my sorry self off this computer and get on my way! ;oD

"I can't go on like this with a sraight face much longer, I know I'll crack up. I better leave now."

Me 2! Thanks for making me smile, SS!

love, epecially my W,
-2long

Pep:

That was ol' 2long trying 2 be flippantly "cute!"

I suck at it, don't I?

-2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Ah! Young Grasshopper,

Those DJ's do get you into trouble don't they? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2L, you are doing far better than you think, and I suspect you did less damage than you think. Still, a good hug and an apology is ALWAYS a positive reaction to something you are unsure of or surely if you are sure of it.

Would you believe that we have add little fog all summer but we have it now at night so I cannot get my scope out and look at Mars? Life is not fair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Did find a cool way to wrap the lat/long composite surface photo into a sphere to include our 3-D plots. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hang in there 2L, you are have done yourself pround much more often than not.

JL

JL

You made me cry happy tears, JL.

Would YOU believe that last night, almost the closest Mars has been 2 us in almost 60,000 years, the "seeing" was almost a 9 out of 10?

I 2k better images last night with my 6" refractor than I have EVER taken of Mars!

Night before last, though, the "sucker holes" were 2 few and far between for me 2 stay out of the sack!

love, especially my W,
-2long

2L

i figgured you were tweaking SS ....

BTW .... crying is good for women. Cleansing.

Don't be afraid of her tears.

Tears are good.

Pep

Pep:

Thank you.

What about my tears? They feel really good right now!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

love, especially my W,
-2long

Here all y'all (plural of y'all) go (bigsis, do you still have this one on vinyl?):

"Pandora's Golden Heebie Geebies" - The Association

I have walked along the paths of dark and light
And I have seen the sunrise and I've seen the night
I've seen the calm before the storm and then the fight
And now I see the sparrows as they begin to fly
And all that's left for me to do
Is cry

I've had my view of happiness and my view of despair
I've cleaned out all the cobwebs and I've learned how to compare
I've seen all of the circles and I've had my last affair
And now I see the sparrows as they begin to fly
And all that's left for me to do
Is cry

Thinking that I was lost then finding the end to all beginnings
Gave to me the key made of lead and golden
Freeing locks, Pandora's boxes, devils are expended

And I'm finally free

And when all the tears are finally cried
And I am finally clean inside
The gentle winds will come and they will dry my mind
And I will see the sparrows that need no longer fly
And all that will be left for me to do
Is die

2long,
I left early yesterday to go on a slot canyon hike in Zion with a bunch of 17 year old boys. My body feels old today, but my mind feels young.

Here is a post pepper did on another thread. It applies to you too, so I copied it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't believe any honest painful sharing is LBing ... ever. It's this pain that builds intimacy.

You opened a door. If your H speaks from his integrity, he'll be gently honest with you.

Here's my advice .... when you discuss such things, if you feel the blood rushing through your body as you are about to respond .... stop talking for at least 30 seconds. If you cannot compose your thoughts .... say you need 30 minutes, or so, to go for a solo walk and you will be right back with your thoughts.

Any criticism is valid. Not all criticisms are about you. Some are about the person doing the criticizing. Check your response for any knee-jerk reaction, and go further to look at your issues that caused the knee-jerk response .... before you commit to an answer. Check to see if the little girl inside you is about to respond, or your adult voice ..... sometimes either one works, but you get to decide who's voice speaks when the need arises.

I love being criticized now. I have re-framed that experience as "empowering me to change'. .....

Your H loves you.

End of quote from Pepper.

I have lots to say today, but I owe a few others first that I haven't posted to for a while. I'll get back to you.

Oh heck, while I am here...............

I agree with a lot of what you said about hurting others, but pepper is right. If we don't LB when we communicate and it still hurts then it is a good thing. (I think that is what she said, that's how I saw it.)

Also, why do you think she (Pepper) made that remark about tears? SHE'S TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.

There, I feel better now.

BTW, I think you are getting it, I really do, but we continue to encourage you because we care. We believe that we offer support. I hope that is what you feel.

I think I understand (at least in part) what you are feeling when you say you added too many straws. You love your W, and you don't want her to hurt. I believe that she needs to hurt to heal, and that healing is just now starting for her. I don't think you could or would or should hurt her on purpose, but perhaps it is not always a bad thing for her to cry.

Remember that Pepper has been where you are and come out the other side, and that she can look at things from a side you and I can't - and she has insight into your W's feelings that you and I don't have. I think you ought to trust her with this.

The reason for the communication is that long term intimacy is based on understanding, and understanding on knowledge of the other persons feelings and thoughts. I don't know what you said to W, or how you said it but if it was done carefully with respect and with out LB's, then I really believe you did the right thing.

It always helps us when I hurt W's feelings if after words - when she has had time to sort her feelings out I come back and say something like "I am sorry I hurt you, I wanted you to understand how I feel, so you can help me, but I didn't want to make you feel bad. If you continue to help me, I will continue to help you.

In the end, it doesn't matter whether there's anything for me 2 be "suspicious of" or feel "justified" about or not. The question is, and will forever be: What kind of relationship do I want with this woman who is currently (and hopefully will for a long time continue 2 be) my W? Forget her friendships or her choices, I can't control them and shouldn't want 2.

I should backup and explain some things but I'll just charge ahead (as is expected of my gender anyway) cause time is limited.

If you are saying that you ought to be above those feelings and go on to help your W, then I think I understand. Would it be right of me to point out that one of the things that figures into how successful our relationships are is our feelings? If your W does things to help you trust her, then it is much easier for you to relax and do the things you want to do to help her. No you can't control her, and you shouldn't want to, but.....................

This is one of the things I have been thinking on but wondered how to discuss it.

( ss says to self, I better do background anyway, or I will loose this one)
I really believe that what Dr Harley has done is to take universal truths and write them down in a way that people can understand them and use them to improve their lives. Sometimes I think people assign other meanings to some of the terms and then they think they disagree with him.

One of the things suggested is that we negotiate with our spouse to have our needs met. This (perhaps) could be re-written as "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." I know you understand that concept. Sometimes we think that we ought to be willing to scratch the other persons even if ours is not scratched, but I believe that when we are capable of doing the scratching, and we are not willing then it creates bad feelings. I entered into marriage so that I could get that back scratch sometimes, and I do expect it.

POJA is just agreeing who will scratch and when it gets done.

When you care for someone, you want them to be happy, you want to do things that makes them happy. ( and now, I am getting to the point of all this.) Let me quote you again.

Forget her friendships or her choices, I can't control them and shouldn't want 2.

If she cares for you, and wants you to be happy, she will do things for you too. You fight this inside, but think about it. You have gone out of your way to do things for her. Sometimes you have really put yourself out. You need some kind of sign that she cares for you - you use ILY, and the word Husband as a sign. NC would be a similar and even more powerful sign.

It is right for us to do things for our spouse. We do have expectations. We got married so that our expectations would be reality for life. We do things and we expect things back. POJA is the way we do that fairly and the way we balance it.

OK ?
If you follow that, now I'll get to the point.

Communication - or relating our feelings is one of the ways we negoitate to have our needs met. If that other person cares about us, and we tell them how we feel, then they have information that they need to help us to be happy.
No, we don't demand things.
You understand that part, but we should relate our feelings to give them the information they need to scratch our back in just the right place when it is actually itching the most.
If they care about us, they scratch.

I wonder if one of the reasons it is so hard for ( all of us) to learn communication is that we fear that once we tell where the itch is, the other person won't be willing to scratch. Rejection is hard to take, but it is deadly from the one we love enought to commit our life to. Your hopes have been dashed too many times in the last few years, and it does hurt. I think sometimes we avoid further dashing by not communicating our desires because if we don't tell, then we can't be rejected by them saying no to us. It's safer if we keep our mouth shut, causes less pain.

The thing is, we stay in limbo and never get the relationship we could have if we learned to communicate properly.

I can see that you don't always relate all that is said between the two of you. I believe you commumicate much better than you relate to us. Remember that she can't scratch your back if you don't communicate. One time is not enough, it needs to be ongoing, a daily and weekly thing. That because of the differences in the way we think and react to things. Remember also that unless you learn how to draw out her feelings you can't scratch her back as she wants it done either. Someday, she will understand all this and she will help, but right now, it is all on you to do it for both of you. I think you get this part, but it is hard to do it all by yourself - isn't it.

I think your W wants closeness. I think she wants the result of communication but doesn't understand how to get it. Growth sometimes is painful. You have to S - T - R - E - A - C - H yourself and get outside your comfort zone. You have been outside yours for quite sometime, I hope it is feeling more natural for you.

You don't need to say : "I know your saw RM, I can't cope, the world is ending for me." ( note, I don' t think you said that, but I am trying for contrast.) You can do it simply and respectfully.
" I didn't think it would hurt so much. I have been trying to trust you, and I do trust you, but these negative thoughts won't leave me alone. Please help me......... tell me you love me....... and help me cope with this. I am not trying to hurt you, I am seeking help because I love you and trust you to help me when I am down."

Isn't that really wnat you want? Resurance, and to know that she cares?

Please be willing to admit that she has the power to help you. ( Dr Harley calls that meeting needs, but you can call it something else. I think all he is saying is that we can and should do things to help the other be happy.) I AM NOT saying that ALL your happiness depends on her, but I think you would admit that she can HELP with it. Please be willing to ask her for help. Can you explain to her that one of the things you are doing when you explain your feelings to her is asking her for help with them? Would she understand? Would she undersstand after the fact if you told her now?

I think when you marry someone that you have the right to expect things from them. I think one of those things is that we help each other overcome doubt and fear. Tell her thanks for listening and helping you. Explain to her that she did help by listening to you. Ask her how you can help her too. Tell her you are sorry for making her cry.
Get your talk written. (sorry, had to throw that in.)

I can't believe I stayed this long.

2long, if I ever say things that hurt, I don't mean to. If I ever say things that you don't agree with, I expect you to say something so I can think about it. If I could boil all this long post down to a few sentances it would go something like this: I believe you want to help each other. She can help you better, and you can help her better if you know what the other wants and needs help with, and if you talk about, and agree how to do that. It takes time, and sometimes hurts, but you need to do it anyway.

SS

PS,
I just realized something else. There are some things you have a hard time saying, so you insert a song that says it for you.
I am slow, but I can learn things over time.
OK, I am sometimes REALLY slow. Jeepers, I better go.

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Okay, I'm back! (bet you didn't even notice I was gone, did you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

SS, that was a long post! Lots 2 think about. I'm thinking, as you'll probably notice from my reply 2 your email.

Where I went, one of the kids at the registration booth described me 2 her grandparents as "he looks like Santa Claus". That's about the 5th time in the past year that someone's said that, from my own kids 2 the guy at the agricultural inspection stop on I-15.

I guess I could look like a lot of worse characters! ...hm, maybe I should bleach my hair and beard white and work at Macy's this December?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
♥2long

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Well then Santa, welcome back! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Tee hee! In case you hadn't noticed, I'm "back" on MB too. I'm not sure what caused me to suck it up and post here again today for the first time in ages, but I did.

Wow SS, that post has a LOT of food for thought in it. Very insightful stuff, thanks for posting it here.

So how the heck are you 'ol 2long? Aside from the white beard? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen

Hi Jen!

I guess I'd have 2 say that I'm doing pretty well. I think my W is doing well, 2, though I believe she has a little more "withdrawal work" from ol' Rat Meat 2 do still. A lot could have been speeded up, I guess, if she'd come here or we'd stayed in MC 2gether. As it is, she's not as "aware" of the scripted na2re of these things. I do point that out from time 2 time, but I do have 2 be careful that I don't come across as "educating" her.

She's out of town with my son and some friends until 2morrow night. My D gets home from Wales 2morrow, 2, so it's a good thing the AC is working now! (I have no idea what I did, but it didn't work when I left, and it worked when I tried it 2day!). One of those things I guess I can't take credit for.

♥2long

Hey, 2L -

A week or so ago I promised to get back to you after catching up on your "recent" history. I started to read the voluminous posts, then quit part way through and started reading "War and Peace." It's much shorter!!

I know your wife returns today, and I sincerely hope that this "major 2rning point" (as you so aptly called it) turns out to be a real positive force for both of you and your family.

You know, after the thousands of posts you have recorded here, one short paragraph you wrote in one of your last ones indicates to me that not only do you finally "get it", but I think you are poised to reap the benefits of your altered way of thinking. That quote was:

"I can only control me, and I'm still 2uite capable of getting way the hell out of control even now. It is my responsibility to MYSELF 2 fix THAT. Nothing else. The rest of life, the universe, and everything can then unfold, but only if my ego gets the f*** out of the way!"

That's it, 2L. Ego, pride, self...all must be disengaged in order for us to be able to forgive, trust, move on, and love again without reservation. We can only see love and beauty through eyes unclouded by anger, hurt, or resentment. I'm sure you and I and other BS's would have preferred to learn that via other avenues, but at least we're learning it now and we'll all be better people for it.

Give your wife a big hug tonight from all of us here. We all are hoping and praying for wonderful things to happen for your family.

P.S. - got a chance to view Mars up at Lake Tahoe last week. Big and bright as a shiny new penny up there!

First,
Mars? What about Mars? Is there something I should know?

Second,
Gone? Who was gone? Give me a hint, is it someone I know?

Third,
It's not my fault, I wasn't even there, I don't know anyting about it, and I won't admit anything anyway.

4th,
Best wishes for a good homecoming and continuing recovery.

SS

Fifth,
Is there something I should know about doot?

<small>[ September 02, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks, SiSF!

You know, even now it's easy for the ego 2 sneak in the back door with all kinds of machinations about what's "logical" and all.

Like the clone remark. It wasn't a big deal for her this time, but I thought a lot about it: If she could clone herself, there'd be TWO of her unable 2 make a choice as 2 where she wanted 2 be! But I'm pretty sure she's thought about it a WHOLE lot less than I did! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And then there's the "I'll never go back the way it was before" remark. Yeah, sure. Neither will I, but she's expecting me 2 do just that by expecting 2 be able 2 keep RM as a friend... again, I think about it a whole lot more than she does.

These things are all true, but like Chorus pointed out on his thread about NC, it's much more meaningful if my W can come 2 the same conclusions I've reached ON HER OWN, rather than via a demand (or something that sounds like one 2 her) from me.

♥2long

There's a poem someone wrote about meeting a man on the stair that wasn't there. It ends with: "He wasn't there again today, I wish that man would go away."

For a problem that doesn't exist, her relationship with RM sure causes lots of pain between the two of you.

Not hearing much from the direction of your house tonight. You go to bed early?

Actually, since I am not in a real helping mood tonight, I'll just kind of type stuff.

Is doot a real word?
It sure sounds cool.

SS

Hey SS!

You still up? It ain't as early where you hails from is it?

I'm up, but my W hit the sack early. I'm waiting for ol' Mars (me and Mars are buddies), 2 get high enough 2 be worth taking pic2res of. Got a couple new gizmoids for my scope, and I'm anxious 2 try them out.

We talked a little more this evening. Mostly good stuff. She's getting more understanding of just how this affects me, and I think I'm gently helping her realize that *I* have choices that I can make that could improve my happiness if she doesn't want our M. YOu see, she still can say things like "marriage is a waste" but clearly want 2 stay M'd 2 me "2 see if we can work it out." And she said that it scares the hell out of her when I say things like "I don't know if I can take this anymore." So, I'll rephrase statements like that, omit them, or explain myself more clearly.

I told you, but I didn't tell anybody else on MB yet:
1) X-coworker that knows about A ratted (pun intended) on my W 2 her supervisor, who ratted 2 other coworker that didn't know, who ratted 2 friend x-coworker that didn't know, but knew there was a problem around RM. My W is upset with x-coworker, who was her best friend for many years now. I get snippets of regret, but more of annoyance. I did tell her my truth, and that is that it makes no sense that she told, because it does noone any good at this point.
2) I told my W about reading those emails in June. She seemed a bit upset at first, but not that much, even a bit relieved. I think part of her "relief" or maybe "not going on the attack" was that when she said "I can't believe you read my email" I replied with "you left your account open on my computer when you and the kids left FL, and I wasn't about 2 just close it without seeing what you're thinking these days." She even seemed 2 respect that. I think she said at one point that she'd like me 2 see all her correspondence, so that I'd know that she hasn't talked 2 RM since then, other than the meeting they asked her at her new job 2 have with him last week. And she knows now how that affected ME as well as her.

She said that the only "personal" stuff they talked about was in response 2 him asking her how she's doing, and whether we're still 2gether. She said we are, and that "we're going 2 give it 2 years" (when our son will be finished with HS). But she told ME that she just said that 2 him, that it was more or less arbitrary. I told her that I used 2 frown on her "taking it a day at a time" but that now I believe that's exactly the right way 2 do this.

Overall, I think things are going 2 be good, with time and hard work on both our parts. I think she would agree. But like I said on ALS' thread just now, I think I can see some fog patches persisting, but I think that they're going 2 clear.

Like JL said over a year ago, this is going 2 take time and patience.

You're right. Communication is very cool.

-ol' 2long

You sound like you are feeling pretty good about things with your W these days, I'm glad to hear that. I really admire your ability to have the patience to kind of sit back, be kind and encouraging to her, not make demands, and wait for her to come to some of the same conclusions you came to ages ago on her own.

I for one actually do think it's a good thing that a coworker ratted RM and your W's affair out to others....it makes it just that much more shameful and embarrassing for them to even be seen together now, it may just discourage them from wanting to be near each other at all, even if a work situation seems to require it.

You know, the whole "time and patience" quote from JL is such a basic standard around here, and a VERY good one at that, such that I think the Harley's should add it to the basic MB principles page. Now how do we go about suggesting that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jen

Glad to hear W and son are back. It just feels better when everyone is home. Sounds like things are going well.
Interesting response from your W concerning you reading her emails. My WW has gone off on me every time she discovers that I have "invaded her privacy", demanding that I stay out of her life. Yet WW told a friend that she could understand my trying anything to break up the A. Friend said it seeemed WW respected me for it.
You did the right thing not apologizing for reading the emails. You showed your strength. Even though your W may not be happy with some of your actions, you know that respecting those actions and therefore respecting you will play an important part in your M.

Jen:

Interesting twist. My W said that she thinks her xfriend is jealous. She DV'd a long time ago, like 15 years, from her H who left her for someone else. Like *I* should have done that 2 my W or something.

Some here have said I should have. I don't think so, but I do realize that I have had that choice. Still do. And with that choice comes a heavy responsibility. I don't take it lightly. I can't grow by throwing the M in the can without putting some serious effort in2 trying 2 fix things. I think I've done that, with some success now. But the work doesn't "feel" done yet.

23: Boy, is it possible that you haven't seen one of my posts quoting the "definitions of secrecy and privacy, truth and honesty" from Spacecase's stuff on our iloveulove.com website? If so, I'd be happy 2 post it again. It's great stuff, with the clearest distinction between secrecy and privacy I've ever seen. Even my W can't argue with it.

Take care troops,
-2long

I went to bed right after I posted, so I was not up. AS you noted, I am in a different zone. Not saying what kind of zone.

I think progress is good.

Did you end up doing time...I mean duty today?

I have never been called yet, but If I am, I would probably go and try to be objective.

Hope you have another good night. You may want to lay off the discussions and just make her happy. That works for me most of the time. You know, give her a rest from the heavy stuff and just relax.

It would probably surprise her if she wanted to talk and you said "no, lets just realx tonight and leave all that other stuff alone for a while." It may even scare her.

I owe some other people, I'll see you around.

Hey Jen, hope you are doing well, at least as well as you can for the way life is for you right now, I ought to drop by your thread - will if I get time.

SS