This is just a note of caution. In the past you have stated time and again that he is such a manipulator. My guess is that he asking for one more month because he will try to do something financially that will hurt you and enhance himself. Please be very careful and cautious. Please see your attorney and ask him or her what you can do to protect yourself in case he wishes to hurt you financially. Better safe than sorry. Good luck.

No Jen, none of us think you are a fool to give things another month, although again I tend to be like BryanP and just to say, be a little cautious. Take care of yourself Jen and make sure you can't be affected financially. I know money isn't the end of the world, but at the end of the day if you do have to set up again by yourself, it's important that you can look after yourself.

I have to say I think it sounds like the meeting went well - you handled yourself well Jen, although my thoughts about your H are if your M is at the bottom of his list compared to one of his brothers getting paid for to go through college or not, well, sorry to put a spanner in the works, but that's just not good enough. Well others always come first?

You are right however that another month in the wider scale of things is nothing, so long as your H really does start to think about things properly. Whatever conclusion he comes to, I really hope that he at least does that for himself and for you.

Keep us posted Jen and take good care.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your strength is showing. He can see that, if he stops wallowing in his self-created misery for a moment, that is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wallowing in his self-created misery is what makes him very unattractive to me now.

bryanp, that same thought crossed my mind, I wonder if there is some supposed advantage to being financially separated for a year - it was at the end of last Sept. that we split the finances. I think I will quickly check with my lawyer to make sure he isn't playing with me. But to be honest, the tenderness of the hugs and kisses he gave me yesterday don't seem to indicate maliciousness. That being said, I still don't completely trust him. Funny, here I am the FWS, and I don't trust the BS!

Edited to add: This all feels a little bit hollow....I don't love him like I used to, I don't have that desperate desire to be his wife like I used to....I just would like to be sure that we can't work it out before I walk away. It's like hooking up with an old friend and trying to figure out how to behave around one another again. Oh well, at least I seem to be more rational and conscious of his ability to manipulate me now, right?

Jen

<small>[ September 07, 2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen my two cents worth....

It seems like you two have moved so far apart that the only common bond is the fact that you are married and the affair its fallout are all you have left.

Indeed after one year I think he would want to move as well if he can't or won't forgive.

Gee whiz, I know the divorce-busting 180 list says
- "no frequent phone calls" and
- "do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore", not to mention
- "learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out".....

BUT I am none too happy with myself today for saying yes he can have one more month. I should've negotiated and said no, 2 weeks! He's already had 15 months! I feel duped. I feel like calling him and asking him why he wants one more month, and what difference he thinks that will make. Can anyone tell me what you see as the pros and cons to making that phonecall?

Besides, so what if he decides in 1 month that he "wants to try"? Then we still have to try dating IMHO. I don't think I would rush into moving "home" - that doesn't sound too wise to me (throwing boundaries out the window).

Frustrated Jen

<small>[ September 07, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen:

What's a month? I agree, though, that at the end of that month, if he's willing 2 "try", then start dating. Don't move home and assume that everything is peachy.

Remember, 2, that YOU have that month 2 think as well. If you don't want the M at the end of that month, your vote counts.

-2long

What does your WH really think about your commitment?

<small>[ September 07, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

I have this real urge to call H and ask him what he sees as the choices at the end of the month. I just spent a long time in ladies chat with "itsme" and now I am more confused than ever. She said I need to tell him what I want him to do during the monthso it will help him figure things out. I don't get this, no matter how many times she tried to explain it.

I've been told my MB people, family and friends, that here we go again, I just did the exact same thing again and am expecting different results? What a fool I am.

I agreed to let him have another month, but we never clarified what would happen during that month. I'm so stupid. He makes me lose all sight of rationality. I feel so duped.

Why didn't he just want the divorce, if he can't stand to be around me for 15 months, why would it change now?

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Jen,
Calm down. You aren't stupid, you aren't making the same mistakes. Stick to your guns. Call your lawyer and see if another month hurts anything financially. Then go dark for a month. We won't call it plan B since you don't like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Take this month to take care of you. To not worry. To figure out what you want, honestly. At the end of the month, see where he is at. Is he willing to do what you need? Are you willing to do what he needs? Are what the two of you "need" healthy for each other and for a marriage? Is this really going to work? All those questions- answer them for just you. Just yourself. Be honest with yourself. Clean out your mind and just focus on where this all needs to go. And if you can get around to it, ask God what He thinks He would have for your life too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Take care Jen.

Jen,
A month is really not much in the big scheme of life.

I've been waiting for a lot longer than that, and I still haven't given up. (divorce was FINAL over 13 months ago).

Jen, I get the feeling you've never been a very patient person. I wasn't either, but now I've been forced to be a patient one.

Take care
HP

I've calmed down again. (YAY!)

In and of myself, I was (am) content to wait one more month. It's been since I told my parents, best friends, people on MB and MB ladies that I'm doubting myself. If I am comfortable with waiting one more month, to heck with everyone else. They're not me, they're not living my life. The vast majority of friends and family think that they can spare me additional pain if the encourage me to divorce him, and divorce him now. They just don't get it though. I made a committment to my H and God, 'til death do us part.

Brokenheartand arm, in response to your question, I've told my H since d-day that I'm willing to work on this M if he is. I'm going to stay true to my word. If he's an a$$, and in one month, he asks for more time yet, then it's time to be callous and selfish (as he loves to call me) and push for the divorce and stop waiting for the king of procrastation and avoidance to keep playing his game.

adgirl, long time no talk, 'tis good to hear from you, and hear your encouragement.

hopeful_person, I always thought I was patient (so many of my students say that's one of my strenghts), but really, when it comes to this, my patience is simply wearing thin, and that showed today.

One month IS a reasonable request that I'll live with. Enough second guessing myself based on other people's opinions, people who aren't me, and don't know what it's like to be me.

Jen

Jen,

I wish I had some advice to give, but unfortunately, I tend to be the same way you are....carrying the guilt and always looking for that last shred of hope.

As I said earlier, I have browsed some of your posts. Do you mind my asking what happened in the first 3 months after d-day? Before you separated? Just curious to know his reactions and whether it was him or you that wanted the separation. If it's too personal or nosy, please forgive me. Just trying to get all the education and lessons from this board that I can.

Anyhow, please remember to look out for yourself. From what it seems like, he appears to be somewhat selfish and self serving. Not looking out for anyone's needs but his own. Yes, you could be patient and wait for him to change. But you are also young enough to start again and fall in love again. You have done a wonderful job at discovering your reasons for the A and how you can avoid them in the future. Sounds like all he has done is blame you and punish you. I could be missing something, but we all have to learn for ourselves.

So whatever your outcome may be, I am wishing you the best of luck. Either way. I hope you find peace with your decision.

Hi there lostintx. You asked about the 3 mos between d-day and me moving out, so here goes:

On d-day, my H announced that he wanted a divorce and we were separating for one year, that I had no choice. (He'd known about the affair since it started, and said nothing.) This was at the beginning of June. Here's my original MB thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=29;t=001640

For a week or so, we lived in separate bedrooms in the same house. Then I found a key that didn't fit our house. I followed him one night to his female friend's place, and discovered that the key I found let me into her apt. building, and a huge blow-out ensued (he threatened to have me arrested if I didn't hand the key over, I threatened to turn him into the police for his curbing of cars, he screamed that he lovED me, but not anymore, etc.). I went home, he showed up shortly after, grabbed a couple bags full of stuff and proceeded to move in with that female friend for a week or so. Then he came back home, separate bedrooms continued. Work ended with the end of June (we're both teachers). Around this time, we told our parents we were separated. Mine just accepted it. His, well his mom demanded details as to why. This included non-stop phone calls, showing up at our house and ringing the doorbell endlessly etc. So he told them. Then he claimed that they told him to leave me.

In early July, I watched him spend his days with his 2 stupid female friends then come home at night hoping to have sex with me, then sleep in separate rooms. I decided to go away on a trip with friends, since I didn't foresee him treating me well any time soon. He went away on a trip by himself.

We both got home at the end of July. For a couple of days, he considered taking me on the usual family fishing trip in August, then changed his mind, and told me to move out, claiming he couldn't love a woman that his parents couldn't love. We wrote up separation papers. He went on his family's annual 3 week trip, I searched for an apt., packed and then moved out August 24th, 2002.

Then from Aug-Nov we had no direct contact, it all had to go through one of his stupid female friends, even our financial separation at the end of Sept. 2002. Then he ended the NC separation in early Nov. by showing up at my place....and the rest is history....

Incidentally, I later found out his parents had never told him that they couldn't love me, or for him to leave me. He just misinterpreted their reactions and/or lied to me. (It sounds like once before they heard the whole truth they told him that if he cheated on me, he'd better end it immediately, and if I'd cheated on him, that he should leave me.)

His mom still loves me and would welcome me back at any time, and has said this several times. In fact, she's been after him to take me back, but it doesn't seem to help. After my FIL died, my MIL told me that he loved me very much, talked about me often, and said no one should live a life sentence for one mistake.

SO, in short, he demanded the separation, and as the FWS (the one who *ucked up), I felt I had no choice but to give in to his demands.

Indeed, to me it feels like all he's done is lay blame on me and punish me. His whole outlook on life for the past year seems to be about laying blame on people, and complaining about how the world has done him wrong.

If he truly makes it clear to me that he wants to work at this wholeheartedly, I'll try it. But I'm very cynical that he will want to, or that he'll be able to treat me well enough for me to want to stay.

Jen

Jen,

thanks for the background. It's been a really rough day, so I'm just going to keep this short and wish you better days ahead. I will post more back later.

have a good night

Thanks lostintx! Hey everyone, I had a pretty cheerful realization, in one month's time, one of two things will happen:

a) I will be FINALLY working on this M along WITH my H, moving ahead in our lives, towards recovery

or

b) I will be on the road to divorce and freedom to move ahead with my life alone.

Limbo no more! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (My back was really starting to hurt dancing under that bar for 15 months, lol!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I made a list of things (conditions) I would IDEALLY like if my H surprises me and says he does want to wholeheartedly work on the M. So far it includes:

- a time comittment to "trying" (eg. live together for at least 90 days - which is as long as we can live together without having to start the one year separation over again).
- radical and complete honesty, about what we do and with who AND feelings
- treat each other as partners and equals, not him the BS on a pedastal, and me the grovelling FWS at his beck and call
- spend at least 1 hour a day (preferably more) together on weekdays, more on weekends
- no friends of the opposite sex - on phone or on social outings alone (this means me or him, and puts an end to his relying on his 2 female friends)
- our M and each other take priority before anyone or anything else, including his mom, and both our jobs
- try MC, at least one session
- do EN survey
- we go to church together again (but maybe find one OTHER THAN the one his mom goes to)
- we exercise together 3 times a week (walking is a very good time to debrief and talk - our relationship was at its strongest when we did this)
- no drinking alcohol on weekdays at all

So, I realize that this list is a bit long, and probably sounds like a bunch of selfish demands, but I'd try to POJA it with him, without explaining what POJA is. I'd say to him one of my key conditions is that we consult each other on everything, and only do what we both enthusiastically agree to do.

Anyone care to help me out with which conditions are reasonable and most important?

Also, is dating a weak attempt at trying? Should we go for full-on living together again? Or maybe try living together on weekends to start? What have any of you done after living apart?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hi Jen,

I just wanted to respond to the original question. I've decided to work on our M if WS wants to, but I realize we have a long road in front of us. It may turn out that I don't want to be married to WS after all. I don't know that, yet, though, and I'm doing everything I can to save our M.

I like your list of conditions. I mentioned to WS this morning that our time committment could be 6 months or a year.
Our MC said that I will have to be able to forgive to the point that this does not haunt us forever (i.e. WS groveling)
Walking together is a great idea! I will try that one.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would start by dating. For us, I feel we are rebuilding our M from the ground up. Taking it slow and dating sounds like a good idea to me.

Hi Jen. Yes it's me again. I hate reading through really long threads, it's tiring, but I wanted to see what's been going on in your life.

So, after reading, I thought maybe it was time for one Christian to talk to another Christian one more time.

So many of the posts that I read have counseled you to "follow your feelings" and proceed with a divorce either immediately or after the "one more month." As you know, I disagree with this counsel. Before you get too anxious about that, let me acknowledge that not all marriages survive, or should survive. But I don't think that we are talking about "those" sorts of marriages.

You find your love dwindling, and I'm not surprised. One of the reasons is that you have not been doing a true Plan B. You chose to remain in contact and with each passing day and month, you feel like you are getting nowhere. That part is understandable. But I want to get back to the basics. We've talked about them many times in the past but I know how easy it is to "live in the present" and not remember our commitments of the past.

Jen, as you know from our discussions of a year ago, I believe that your husband is, and has been, behaving like a child. He has not "grown up" yet. BUT, he IS your husband. You made that covenant with God and your husband the day you married. We know that one thing is true and one thing is decidely possible, but two wrongs do not make it "right" to divorce. What is required is to refocus your marriage on submission to God's commands and teaching. To perform the roles that God has assigned to husbands and wives.

Let's be basic for a minute, from what we do know, you do not have the right, Scripturally speaking, to initiate a divorce. But, if what we don't know for sure is also true, you do have the right. Regardless, "truth" lies in forgiveness and obedience to God. So what does that leave us with if divorce is the very last option?

Jen, the thing we are left with is the same thing that we talked about originally. Both of you need to live your lives in humble obedience to God. Not doing what you "want to do" or "rationalizing" or "excusing" bad or sinful behavior. I know you are willing to do this, but you get torn and shoved back to trying to control things yourself. That is understandable because of how unrelentingly difficult your husband has made things. But if there is an "answer" as to what to do, as to what the "goal" should be, it would seem that the thing to set as a goal is a close walk, by each of you, with Christ. It is his relationship with Christ that needs addressing first. Oh sure, you can start, or continue, to do some of the other things concurrently. Things such as dating, deciding on what church to attend, etc., but the goal must be submitting our lives to Christ and doing what God commands and teaches regardless of how we might be feeling.

I have no doubt from what you have written that he is one mentally confused puppy. He has NOT been turning to God for guidance. He has been allowing himself to be blown around by any wind and controlled by his "feelings". He has no anchor. That is why I "way back when" said that there is a very real chance that he never truly accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior. Perhaps this "month" will be the turning point. Perhaps by talking with him about his relationship with Christ will keep the talk off of your "relationship" with each other and focused on why he might have a problem with Christ.

If he is willing to talk about this stuff, then the best thing for him would be to enlist the aid of a pastor, or someone like that, to personally counsel him on God and his relationship with God.

Once that has been addressed, then Joint Christian marital counseling would be in order to deal with the marriage issues and to keep the focus on building a God centered marriage.

So while I know how difficult it has been for you, I would strongly encourage you to NOT proceed with a divorce even if all your "conditions" are not met at the end of the "one more month". Pray ceaselessly. Read your Bible daily. Keep the focus on saving the marriage and not on who is "right or wrong" or who has done more to hurt the other. There is enough of that to go around. Put God in control, back off the throttle, and put your trust in God and your patience in God to work, however long it takes.

Remember, Jen, as long as you keep control, God will let you. You have to take the step, even if it's a bit scary at first, to trust God's faithfulness and not to trust your feelings. You entered a lifetime covenant with God. He IS faithful, but the two of you can mess it up by putting yourselves in control. The "key" is humble, submissive, obedience to God. To let God direct and teach. Sometimes the lessons He teaches are painful and sometimes they take time. But we have to be willing to learn if we are to build a God-centered, God-honoring marriage.

Remember the triangle that I talked about some time ago? Move up the sides of that triangle. You will almost certainly NOT move up at the same rate of speed, but in committing to be obedient and to following God you will move closer both Him and to each other.

Jen, the last thing that I want to say is that you need a good Christian counselor. You have been using this system as your primary source of counseling, and then throwing in the Ladies Chat also. Jen, none of us are experts. None of us has the training. Not all of us are even Christians who will give you Christian based advice. If there is one thing that may help you through some of the confusion, it may be ONE Christian voice teaching and admonishing you according to Scripture.

God bless. Stay focused. Pray without ceasing. Trust God.

FH, thank you kindly for taking the time to write me such a detailed response. Quite frankly, I didn't respond for days, because I simply have to say that I will not live my life in the shadow of guilt placed upon my by my H, or by guilt placed up on me by rigid Christian expectations ("no divorce, ever, it was a covenant you entered into," etc.).

In short, I have allowed my intense guilt over the fact that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...he IS your husband. You made that covenant with God and your husband the day you married.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have battled with the fact that I made a life long committment to God and my H. It's been largely responsible for why I have allowed things to drag out for another 4+ months since the one year mark of separation. Quite frankly, I refuse to live my life tied to a husband who won't live his life treating me as his wife. I won't bang my head against the wall for the rest of my life (stay with my H, no matter how he behaves or how he treats me) to retain this covenant.

I'm not allowing guilt to control me anymore. That's honestly how I feel. Oh, I know in your eyes, it's not living for God if I live my life according to how I feel. So be it for now.

Back to my list of conditions for working on the M....my last post prior to this one....I think perhaps I need to say to my H, "H, if you decide that you truly and wholeheartedly want to work on this marriage together, I would appreciate it if you could come up with a description of your personal plan for HOW we would begin to do that. What kinds of conditions and expectations would you have for us, for you and for me? I need to know this, and need to share my perspective on this with you, before either of us recommits wholeheartedly to this marriage."

Yes, that means I'm saying IF we can agree on how to approach it, then we can try reconciling. I am placing a HUGE condition on whether I'll try again or not. If he isn't willing to approach this like an adult who places the importance of his marriage above all else, and isn't willing to THINK about (remember, Mr. Classic Conflict Avoider continously and consistantly says he just doesn't want to think about "it")what is needed to do that, then he won't be willing to treat me well, that is for sure.

Another thing that crossed my mind, while reading seawhale's thread about alcohol addictions.... apparently you can't ask or tell an alcoholic to stop drinking. A few quotes from that thread apply I think:

Pepperpand wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alcoholics are masters at seeking out spouses who will accept and embrace guilt and blame. It is your choice to stop.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">juststartingover wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only the alcoholic can make the decision to take control of his/her disease. And that only happens when the pain of not taking control outweighs the very real pain of having to take control. Hitting bottom, as it's usually put. It's a moment of clarity when s/he says "This is hurting ME too much." Unfortunately, alcoholics can very seldom decide to take a grip on their disease because it's hurting somebody else - wife, mother, child. It usually has to be personal pain.

Where does this leave the spouse/child of an alcoholic? Loving the alcoholic, but loving him/herself enough to get out of the situation and protect herself and especially protect any children. According to my psychiatrist, an alcoholic is literally insane, and in his unforgettable phrase "trying to reason with or cure an alcoholic makes you ****ing insane." You're not abandoning him/her or being a bad person by getting out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So those are my honest thoughts on a Saturday morning. Share what you think if you wish.

Jen

The cynic in me is back again, today I don't think he wants anything more than some occasional sex and a chance to put off the divorce and paying me what he owes me for my half of the house.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Back to my list of conditions for working on the M....my last post prior to this one....I think perhaps I need to say to my H, "H, if you decide that you truly and wholeheartedly want to work on this marriage together, I would appreciate it if you could come up with a description of your personal plan for HOW we would begin to do that. What kinds of conditions and expectations would you have for us, for you and for me? I need to know this, and need to share my perspective on this with you, before either of us recommits wholeheartedly to this marriage." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I tell him this now (the next time I can get a hold of him), so he will think about this while he's FINALLY making his decision, or should I stick to divorce busting rules, and not contact him at all, let him contact me (and hence only say the above when we talk at the end of Sept.)?

(I'm so bored today/tonight I am tempted to call him, even though he's likely run out of town camping yet again, to avoid me and his mom.)

Jen

Hi Jen,
I don't have any advice on what you should do as far as the two choices you gave in your last post.

I did read this, and it caught my eye.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (I'm so bored today/tonight I am tempted to call him, even though he's likely run out of town camping yet again, to avoid me and his mom.)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you really think of calling him when you're bored?

That rather bothered me. I read that as "I'm bored. I need some drama. I better call up H and stir some up."

Why don't you take up a few new hobbies, and/or get involved in new stuff? It will broaden your social circle, and it will keep your mind off of all this. Stay out of the drama of your H!

For me I've been rather lucky in that my life is so busy I'm never bored. My job is very demanding and I have hours of work to do at home. I have a home and yard to take care of, etc.

HOwever, I am lonely at times. Is that what you really felt, was loneliness? Jen, I could understand that better than to call him out of boredom.

When I posted last week due to horrible feelings of loneliness, I got great advice to call up someone and do something--but not my exH! I did just that, and felt much better.

Jen, take care and please do think about what I've said.

You've said many times that you 'take it, or leave it' as far as what those of us here at MB tell you. Fine either way by me, but I do care about you and I feel there's a lot of value in all of the replies you get.


H_P