Jen, I hope you are feeling better. Colds can be a real pain, not so much because they are so bad, but because they drain the strength out of you.

I spent several hours composing a response to a lot that has been said here, but I've decided that it's pointless to have "debate". For the record for whomever might be interested, I consider myself to be a Christian through the grace of God. I am not "tied" to one "flavor or another", but there are definitely some "flavors" that like to use skim milk instead the full rich and creamy milk. So if you like to apply labels, then label me a "fundamental" Christian. One who believes in the inerrancy of Scripture, that "All Scripture is God-breathed (every scripture inspired of God) and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so the that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2Tim.3:16-17, NIV)

I believe that the Scripture that we have today has been translated faithfully, and the historical proof of the care taken in that translation is way beyond that available to any other document of history. (I prefer the beautiful prose and poetry of the KJV, but also prefer the NIV for it's clarity in using terms we more easily understand in today's language)

I believe that in accepting Christ as our Lord and Savior, we acknowledge that God is Sovereign, not man. I accept what Jesus said as truth, including; "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6:29); "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid." (John 14:23-27, NIV); and "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt.7:21, NIV)

I believe we would all do well to heed the warnings to the churches in Revelation 2-3.

We could go on, but that isn't the purpose of why we are here.

From your post of Sept. 7:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In and of myself, I was (am) content to wait one more month. It's been since I told my parents, best friends, people on MB and MB ladies that I'm doubting myself. If I am comfortable with waiting one more month, to heck with everyone else. They're not me, they're not living my life. The vast majority of friends and family think that they can spare me additional pain if the encourage me to divorce him, and divorce him now. They just don't get it though. I made a committment to my H and God, 'til death do us part. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, I agree with your commitment and would simply encourage you to remain faithful. You know, if you'll reflect back on our conversations of a year ago, my feelings about your husband and things that he needs to do, have not changed. I believe he has been guilty of many things, even and EA (even though in his mind he seems to limit adultery to actual sex). But neither one of us can "make" him change. All we can do is try to model Christ for him, be available to answer questions, admonish for a submission to God's will, and pray.

I urge you, again, to not rely on my counsel or the counsel of others. Go directly to the source. Read the Bible for yourself. Yes, I know it's easier to chat or post, but take the time to read. You, as a teacher, must know the value in reading source material for one's self.

I still recommend you read the book of Job. You have waited patiently (okay, sometimes not so patiently) and have seen glimmers of hope, only to have those glimmers squashed by feelings and advice given from others or actions taken when the frustration level got too high.

Last Fall I sent you a pamphlet on "What to do when your marriage goes sour". If you still have it, get it out and read it again.

What I am concerned about is that you may well be ending your patience just when the "tide was turning." That is why I think you will find great encouragement in reading the book of Job. Sometimes it does seem the "darkest before the dawn". Be willing, even in the face of our human emotions that scream at us "enough!", to submit our wills to God's will. To be obedient to His commands. To not tell God, "okay, I'll give you "X" amount of time and if you don't do something by then I will take back control of my life from you." To acknowledge that God is sovereign and HE has the right to do whatever He wants with one of His own to mold them and shape them into a closer walk with Him.

Jen, you've had precious little real conversation with your husband in the past year. Please don't make any final decisions until you have spent time in long and substantive conversation with him, perferrably with a good counselor as mediator and guide.

And sort of in response to the questions you posed in your earlier post, if your husband seems to want to stay in the marriage, then the first step needed would seem to be joint Christian marital counseling. He is going to have to face some very hard truths about himself also, especially with respect to his failure to be obedient to God in his role as "head of the household". You will both need an independent, trained, counselor who is committed both to saving marriages and to following God in humble submission.

Jen, if I could give you my shoulder to cry on, I would. Just know that every time I have wanted to give up and throw in the towel on my marriage, I have "waited on the Lord". It has worked. He has been faithful. He has taught me many valuable lessons that I needed to be taught and He is in the process of restoring my marriage. Left to my own reasoning, emotions and limited strength, I would not be married today. You have already demostrated more strength than most of us, don't give in yet. Begin each day with a commitment to God and a willingness to let God direct the day.

God bless.

FH, Jen:

I don't know if this will make sense 2 you or not, but:

"I still recommend you read the book of Job. You have waited patiently (okay, sometimes not so patiently) and have seen glimmers of hope, only to have those glimmers squashed by feelings and advice given from others or actions taken when the frustration level got too high. "

I read the book of Job again recently, because my own si2ation seemed so much like what Job went through (at least from my perspective, living in what I thought was the worst trials and tribulations one could experience... ...until I re-read Job's experiences). It may seem strange 2 a fundamentalist Christian that a former Christian Scientist, now "spiri2alist" might find value in Job's story, but I do.

FH, I don't think we're as far apart as you might believe, particularly with regards 2 what is appropriate for either one of us 2 recommend 2 Jen. I, for one, don't view my "recommendations" as anything more than guidance. A different perspective on what I know of her sitch. NOT instructions as 2 what 2 do. That's up 2 her and and based on her belief in her God. Her "flavor" of Christianity, if you will (but even if you won't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

♥2long

<small>[ September 16, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I now know why I get so worked up when I read FH's posts, and mthrhbbrd's posts. I've thought about it quite a bit. I am still quite conflicted internally about what I really should be doing regarding my marriage and my relationship with my H.

Some days, it honestly feels like the only reason I would stay with him would be because of the vows I made to God and my H for a lifetime of committment.

Other days, there are small glimpses of the man I once loved so much and it felt so good to be with.

All in all, I really wish we could remain married and work together on the happily ever after part.

But, two key things my H said just yesterday were:
1) If you think I'm going to ask you to move back in with me at the end of the month, you're wrong.
2) I so don't want to have children (said while looking at pictures of a good friend's beautiful little boys) - to which I replied, really? It is one of the primary reasons why I want to work things out with you.

What's frustrating me in the past couple of days is that in my interactions with my H, if I dare to talk about the real issues, and true feelings about our relationsihp and where it is or isn't going, his reaction is one of anger because I'm not "being nice" and he wants to leave or walk away from the convo. I have avoided talking about the R at all for a long time, thinking that I shouldn't LB and I should stick to the rules set out in the divorce180 list, but how healthy is it to continue to avoid talking about what is important??? Isn't that avoidance part of what got us in trouble in the first place?

As my H says, life is hard I guess.

Jen

Jen I may be wrong when I say that your H is not going to wake up until after you move on with your life. I say this because he seems to have the strong beleif that you will never leave him because you are too much in love with him. Should you divorce him to wake him up? No that strategy is not very effective because it is fake and it doesn't take long to realize it. IF you do decide to go ahead and divorce him do it because you will not settle on being anybody's booty call and because you have hopes and dreams of some day finding somebody who will truly love you and treat you with all the love and respect a W deserves from her H. Am I making any sense?

I don't exactly display a facade that shows that I'm "too much in love" with him anymore. I've really withdrawn from him. I don't tell him how much I care about him, I don't tell him that I oh so want to be with him. I don't even really get very affectionate with him when I'm around him. A quick peck goodbye, and that's it. I don't even call him, unless it's to return his call. Heck, I've even told him that 2 of the reasons I even want to work on things are a) because my vows were made to him AND GOD for a lifetime committment, and b) I want to have children. Those aren't exactly, "oh I love you so much" reasons, now are they? I'm actually quite sure for once that he knows that I'm worn out and ready to leave if he doesn't make an effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IF you do decide to go ahead and divorce him do it because you will not settle on being anybody's booty call and because you have hopes and dreams of some day finding somebody who will truly love you and treat you with all the love and respect a W deserves from her H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That would be my primary motivation for a divorce, believe me! It is precisely the reason I've considered divorce so carefully.

Oddly enough, since I went to my H to say let's end it already, and he made his request for me to "give me one more month please, I really do want to try", his contact with me has increased, A LOT. Some phone calls, opening up to me about what's got him down, inviting me over just to hang out and watch a movie on Sunday, an attempt yesterday to drop by and take me out for dinner (even though our interaction didn't go so well and I couldn't go since I had to go back to work), and he dropped by again on the way home from work today for a quick visit to see me and see how I was (I stayed home from work sick today).

I know it probably sounds bizarre that I am taking things positively at this point, when I was quite frustrated in my previous post. But really, this has been A LOT of contact.

I know that he's got a ways to go before I'd describe him as "somebody who will truly love you and treat you with all the love and respect a W deserves from her H", but he's making baby steps mostly in the right direction. And my boundary this time is decide what you want by October, or it's over.

His remark about him not planning to ask me to move in at the end of the month at least meant that he's fully aware still of the one month time period that's been set as a limit or even ultimatum. I just pray that at the end of the month what he comes to me with is a PLAN for recovery, something like weekly dates as a minimum, and not that he tries to weasel his way into more time. (I still wonder if I should tell him that I need for him to come to me with a specific plan - that's just being honest, right? Or is it being demanding?) If he does try his usual weaseling for more time, then it's tough love time, and I'll ask him to let me know his lawyer's name so I can forward the papers.

Jen

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

If he does try his usual weaseling for more time, then it's tough love time, and I'll ask him to let me know his lawyer's name so I can forward the papers.

Jen,
As I think TMCM was trying to tell you, remember, serving papers is not a "tough love" thing- it is a "I am ready to move on with my life" thing. Divorce is never about tough love, I don't think- trying to reconcile and going to Plan B is. Divorce is more, I loved you and a part of me always will, but I have to stop this roller coaster and get off and live life.
Just make sure you are ready to do that- don't just use the word divorce. Make sure it is a decision and not a "oh, well he didn't do this so I am going to do this" kind of thing.
Email me if you need me to clarify what I am trying to say.....

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Have no fear, this is about working on the marriage together finally now (by the end of the month making a real plan together for this, and a commitment to this plan), or me moving on with my life (by going through with the divorce). It's not an idle threat, it's something I'm ready to do.

Oddly enough though, his behaviour so far this month seems to be telling me that he really will want to try.

Jen