Thank you, everyone. You are all being very kind. My friends, and H, often accused me of listening to too much advice, and then getting myself confused and immobilized. I guess that's what's happened.

I think I'll take a couple days to think -- but please continue adding any thoughts you might have. Although my LB is draining quickly, I don't think the situation is volatile enough to require quick action.

The friend who told me the A is fraying said she will let me know if she hears anything more, that may make the situation shift. Otherwise, it's time for me to decompress a little.

One more thought, in light of something Mortarman said: strangely enough, H has not mentioned the "D" word. I certainly do not intend to.

This is odd, since he has lived with OW for the last six months. Odd, too, since his behavior even six weeks ago -- flagrant in-yo'-face stuff -- seemed designed to push me to the big D.

Last weekend, he just mentioned the "appropriateness" of moving out his stuff. Five months ago, he wanted to bring a truck over, and, with OW's SIL, get all his stuff out pronto.

Just food for thought...not sure how it influences things...and not sure what it means.

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

MM, Reading some of your posts -- are you absolutely sure it was not the threat of an OW that brought your wife around, and not your Plan B?

On the threat of the OW...absolutely not what brought her around. She didnt even know about this friend I had until two weeks almost after she had first come out of hiding and approached me. It wasnt until later, when she came back over to talk more about us and how to get back, that she found the caller ID on my phone.

Was it a factor to make her come out of the fog and want to do what the PBL said? No. Was it a factor after she came out, and maybe pushed her faster toward ending things with OM? I cant say. She says no. But, that could just be bravado. Maybe it did a little.

But in the end, what started her home was my no contact, my PBL...and the unraveling of their relationship.

The advice I am giving here is based on my own experience, as well as the MB principles. If you dont feel comfortable with MB principles, then dont do them. Or by all means, if you are done with this marriage, then get it over with.

But my experience and research has shown me that the MB principles BEST outline how to overcome this mess. They take into account the basics of the affair, and try to get past all the chaff. Almost all affairs have the same ingredients to them...the same script. Your husband's affair will end. He almost has better odds of winning the lottery, than that relationship working out.

The question is, when he comes out of that relationship, what will he want, and what will he have? The PBL tells him what he MIGHT get, should he meet certain conditions. But it by no means guarantees him that you will be there. Just that you are ready to talk, when his A is over.

I tried many things my way in my first two attempts at Plan B, and all it did was prolong things. I didnt trust the sit back and trust the PBL...and trust God.

It was only when I felt I had had enough, that I actually initiated a Plan B that worked. Plan B is what brought her home. The PBL told her how. The friend I had at the time? Well, in my case, she was just a friend...it never got more than that. But to my wife? Well let's say that the thought that I might have been close to moving on has been brought up more than once since she has been home. And she wasnt nice about it (a little jealousy there).

I do not recommend doing that in order to get a reaction out of the WH. My friend was there because I was truly done with the marriage, and was pursuing divorce. Everyone around me knew, and my wife knew, that I had crossed a line and I was now determined to get my life together. So, this friend of mine wasnt being used...but was going thru the same thing I was...and was there to lend a friendly ear. She now has her divorce and is moving on with her life. And I am glad for that.

Again, the answer is no...it wasnt a factor in her seeking reconciliation. I think the only factor that it was was that it probably speeded up the process a little.

In His arms.

In support of the MM viewpoint, remembering that I am biased because the approach worked for me, I want to say this.

Your WS' behavior is so much like the script of other WSes. He is behaving just like mine did. This is what makes me think that the MB principles are so right on.

Also, note that neither MM nor I went strictly by the MB principles. Even Steve Harley encourages doing what may necessary in your individual situation. I certainly slipped on a zillion occasions.

In my opinion, generally following this approach and viewpoint is what's important.

I certainly can understand your ambivalence and uncertainty. All of this is just so AWFUL and TRAUMATIC for us.

Hang in there. Take your time and take good care of yourself.

AMM,

I came in too late to read your previoiusly proposed letter. Just wanted you to know that I stopped by this thread.

-AD

Thanks MM and MM and others, There are a few big differences that trouble me though. This is a man who is, to all purposes, a really cold fish. He has a history, now, of dumping people and never looking back. Lots of heavily impacted stuff in his emotional psychology. Underneath it all, I'm beginning to suspect there's a lot of easy bruising, but it's way, way down there, and can only be accessed during periods of great trauma, really. He shows little of his feelings -- so it's very hard to know where he is.

This is a man who has great authority, in a community that is very supportive of "moving on" and not looking back on disasters. He will get support for whatever he does. His first wife, whom he dumped, said: "I'm looking now for Mr. Right -- not Mr. Thinks-he's-Right." That's my H.

For the last six months, he has betrayed very little emotion towards me -- he appears to have few regrets about dumping me. The NC has been his. NC seems to play into his hands. It has in the past.

A PBL letter would do little except assure him that what is taking place already is not haphazard, on my part -- but part of a policy. It would change little outwardly, except end immediate possibilities for rapprochement.

Also, I have to admit, I habitually avoid decisions that box me in. This isn't about getting a "fix" so much as maintaining my freedom of action. I recognize that that's a prejudice, and not necessarily the best way to go in all circumstances.

All these differences trouble me -- I hate gambling blindly. I hate gambling at all. I always hedge my bets. I'm not one for leaps into the darkness, and I'd just like to get a better reading before closing off my exits.

AMM,

Thanks for clarifying how your husband is. let me take on what you said here and see what is what.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks MM and MM and others, There are a few big differences that trouble me though. This is a man who is, to all purposes, a really cold fish. He has a history, now, of dumping people and never looking back. Lots of heavily impacted stuff in his emotional psychology. Underneath it all, I'm beginning to suspect there's a lot of easy bruising, but it's way, way down there, and can only be accessed during periods of great trauma, really. He shows little of his feelings -- so it's very hard to know where he is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I hear you. They all have issues. My wife was a product of an alcoholic father. her mom and dad met at work...they were both married to someone else at the time...an affair started their marriage and my wife was born to them. For many years now, they live basically separate lives, their marriage a hollow thing. This is the background that my wife has.

The background IS relevant. But here's the thing...if all that you say is true, and there is no more to this man...then your marriage is over. Sure, he may be this way, and may have acted this way in the past. But people are capable of change...usually under great pain and duress, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a man who has great authority, in a community that is very supportive of "moving on" and not looking back on disasters. He will get support for whatever he does. His first wife, whom he dumped, said: "I'm looking now for Mr. Right -- not Mr. Thinks-he's-Right." That's my H.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife dumped all of her church friends, friends for 8 years...and even stopped really communicating with her mom, when she started her affair. She surrounded herself with people that really werent friends. When you are driving over a cliff, it is not being a friend to stand by and just say "I'm your friend and will support you no matter what." A true friend will tell you the truth...and even take a 2x4 to your head when you need it. So, him being around people that will support him is nothing new.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the last six months, he has betrayed very little emotion towards me -- he appears to have few regrets about dumping me. The NC has been his. NC seems to play into his hands. It has in the past.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has been in an affair. Why should he show you emotion? he is giving it all to her. But like has been said a thousand times here...that relationship will end...and it seems like it is starting to. And now, the mess he left behind, he has to deal with. And that includes how he feels about you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A PBL letter would do little except assure him that what is taking place already is not haphazard, on my part -- but part of a policy. It would change little outwardly, except end immediate possibilities for rapprochement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. Mine did the same thing. My PBL was given and I got next to no response, after the inital anger. She seemed to love the freedom. But seemed was not the truth. The freedom left her with choices she didnt want to make. it left her with choices that were being made for her, when she wasnt ready to make them. Very uncomfortable, and very painful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, I have to admit, I habitually avoid decisions that box me in. This isn't about getting a "fix" so much as maintaining my freedom of action. I recognize that that's a prejudice, and not necessarily the best way to go in all circumstances.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am the same way. But here's the rub...what choice do you have? Has anythign worked up to now? If you are right about him, then nothing will work anyway...so what choices does that leave you? What action do you need freedom to do? Talk to him...enable him? Think thru this. If you read my post during Plan B, you will see I felt much the same. I didnt like being boxed in, to having to really make a decision. For BSs, it is so much easier to stay in Plan A, because we wont make a decision...which is harder and more painful than living under the conditions that we are in. We are afraid that the decisions we do make may make things hurt even more. So we do nothing. We accomodate. We enable. This is NOT helpful, to him or you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All these differences trouble me -- I hate gambling blindly. I hate gambling at all. I always hedge my bets. I'm not one for leaps into the darkness, and I'd just like to get a better reading before closing off my exits.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every choice you take in life is a gamble. But you arent gambling blindly. You have testimony of so many of the fact that this works, even if the marriage ends. The statistics show that you have a better chance of being married to him 5 years from now, than he has of being with OW. And so on and so on. While everythign is a gamble, you arent doing so blindly or haphazardly. You have a plan, a plan that has been shown to work.

It is all about faith. Faith need not be made blindly. Faith is the belief in something that will happen, BASED UPON past actions or events. When you drive down the road and cross into the intersection, you gamble with your life. But you have faith in the other drivers that they will remain stopped at the light as you cross through.

Dont you see, you make these decisions all the time, based upon the information at hand. Like I said, everythign in life is a gamble. Doing nothing is a gamble.

AMM, you are certainly welcome to do this as you please, and whatever is comfortable for you. Believe me, I fought doing Plan B the right way for months, believing that it would not work with my wife (you see, my wife is SPECIAL and DIFFERENT!!). But, just like I have posted before, it is like touching a hot stove. We all react differently. Some yell, some cuss, some cry...some show no emotion at all (your H??). But one thing we all do is to remove our hand from the heat!

What Plan B does is acknowledge that there are differences...but at the base, there are basic tenets that are the same in 99% of the cases. That is what you are after here.

So, like I said...you do what is comfortable. But in the end, I am willing to bet my retirement that anything short of a good Plan B will result in more time in this mess. I hope I am wrong, but the facts and the stats have shown me that this is too scientific to just ognore and say that a particular person is so different that they will not react to the heat.

In His arms.

ms. martin...

I am just gonna ramble on here..I'm not even sure what I want to say with you..so Im gonna just start blathering...and see where it goes...

So much about going to Plan B...or your own actions are very focused on him....

It sounds like by your description of your husband...that he isn't very good at really understanding what a marriage means...not even close....

and that while you two were together...you accepted certain qualities from him...believing that there was enough connection between the two of you to balance it out enough...to have a peaceful union...BUT that his affair and actions have made you re-evaluate heavily what is now today tolerable and intolerable in your world...

You post a lot about him....what/who he is or even more so how he perceives himself and even more how he BELIEVES others perceive him...

what about you...\
what have you learned....and not that you did not get the sanctity of marriage before...but what have you learned about what is tolerable in a marriage and intolerable in a marriage to you??

if i was inclined to write your husband a some type of plan letter and was trying to set a route back..I may take a route that includes...

something about you...(taking focus off him)...what you've learned and what you believe in...and how you believe to want the best for you and him...
and that you do believe in him...the real him dearly enough that you believe he deserves a relationship that truly honors him as a person...

and that you having known him so well...believes no matter what he says differently that he feels lost and lonely where he is now...
but no matter how lost one is they can always find there way home...

tell him there's nothing wrong with hope in our lives...
there's nothing wrong with truly wishing the best for those we care about...

and that change is what makes better people..and all can change...

and that you have learned what a real partnership together can be...and will from this day out only accept a relationship worthy of you and your partner...

what about that Ms Martin...

what about a letter that addresses the core issue of someone that keeps digging themselves deeper and deeper in to a hole???
offerred with understanding and clarity of how at the end of the day..it just sounds sad...and lonely and a part of you is worried and sad for him...

and what about a smidgen of reality that you are going to move on from this...while he makes and rots in the bed he has so arrogantly put together...and so disrespected so many peoples lives...that you on the other hand face a new begining and a new world...and sure have some good ground rules and tools on what matters and what's acceptable....and what's allowable...

this is rambling huh...one of the 12 hours shifts with a cold last night with 4 hours of sleep...

just some thoughts...
please somebody pass the sudafed and coffee...

ARK

Oh Ark, you're wonderful. That's exactly what I need to say. Exactly.

MM, You've given me much to think over, and much to respond to -- I've got a lot to do today, and much work to do. (One of the horrible things about an A is the way it eats up your life.)

And both of you, yes, you are right -- my friends have told me this, too. Everything has become twisted around me serving his needs. Almost from the beginning. Underneath all his coldness and arrogance (yes, Ark, the perfect word) I suspect is a black hole of emotional need. All the "problems" -- including life-threatening illness -- are ways of sucking all the need and attention onto himself. This is part of the personal baggage -- no one could fill all this need, and you get sucked dry if you try.