Exposing the A is a LB anyway you look at it. Basically you are interrupting the WS "fantasy life" and they don't like that.

I know my WW is still upset about me informing OM's W because I didn't exactly inform WW before doing so, of how I was going to do it etc. and that I didn't wait longer. Basically she didn't like that I did things on my own terms. I didn't want her to try to interfere with letting OM's W know.

Your "speech" sounds fine. I do not see any LBs. Once you have delivered your speech then I would suggest you leave him alone for awhile and go about being the new, better you. Once he knows you know, if he won't quit the A, then it's time for you to become confident and go a bit dark, plan Aing whenever you see him or have the opportunity to interact, but you also need to give him a little bit to wonder about....like exactly what he might be losing. God bless and all the best to you.

I too like your speech. However, I would also suggest you ask him to point blank confirm this information. Let him know how much you want to make this work, but that you need to hear it from him that it is true. Tell him straight that you aren't going to leave if he is just straight with you about it. Let him know that it's the first step and that you are willing to work the rest with him as a team. Until he can admit to his affair your Plan A won't work the way it should. I know, I am a FWS. My FBS tried a plan A before my admitting to the A. I thought I could just walk away and it would never have been there, but I was wrong. I couldn't just walk away. I had to open up and say "yes, I cheated" and then start our recovery together. My DH never attacked me in the conversation or anything, and he was very gentle in starting it (as you express you want to be). I agree, it is very important to get this out in the open between you two, but I also think it is important for him to actually be able to admit it. I know what you are embarking on is very tough, but it is well worth it, and I wish you all the very best. Take care, and good luck.

Eduard: that must have been tough! In this case, the OW is single, a former friend and a sexual predator (at least as far as 4 of our single friends are concerned) so informing anyone else is not an issue.

mthrrhbard: Thanks for your comments. I know, "speech" sounds silly but I just meant it wasn't a letter but intended for verbal delivery. Mind you, I wish I could read it directly from the page or speech notes because I'm worried I'll forget a lot during the actual moment! That stress and short-term memory loss connection...

So how long do you think I should leave him to ponder? A couple of days? A week or so? Part of me says he'd better respond immediately with some kind of response but I guess that's just unrealistic?

The PA is only happening when he gets drunk, although the OW sees him (stalks him) every day, and certainly my H had an EA with her before I started my Plan A and the EA is significantly reduced now, if not vanished on his part. I know he is discouraging this daily contact with her but has not told her to F-off yet. Again, he's doing this in actions, not in words (that I know of anyhow...who knows what they say in drunken privacy???).

Princess: Thank you so much!!! What you've said re-affirms so much of what I've been thinking. I know this man very well and since the PA is now very much alcohol-related (I don't know until I hear the truth from him how much it has been alcohol-related from the beginning), I think it is crucial that he be the one to make the link that he sleeps with her when he is drunk, it makes him feel bad (doesn't meet my eyes the next day) and therefore he'll need to address the alcohol issue directly or forever be prey to it. This is a classic case of "he is now doing things under the influence that he regrets the next day" = alcoholic behaviour. But I can't tell him this of course...

I am not expecting him to make these connections all at once, but if he doesn't admit the PA for what it is, then he hasn't taken the first step. The MLC (depression?) drinking was out of hand for the 1st 4 weeks and has tapered off a lot now. But last weekend = drunk = sleep over at OW's.

I have a specific question for you: my H hates to be "trapped". I was thinking of breaking this into 2 pieces...deliver the first part asking him to trust me enough to speak honestly with him. Let it sit for a week. Then directly confront with what I "know" and ask him to confirm.

What do you think???

I could modify the first part to include something like...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please be honest with me because I can take the truth, even if you think it will cause me great pain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, this would put him on notice that I know something. Since he is re-commiting to our marriage week by week in actions (not in words yet other than unconsciously, like making plans for next summer, etc.), he may now have decided he does truly value our marriage and choose to admit the A to me as a result.

Second, if he didn't say anything (most likely), he still would have had a subtle warning. My thinking here is that by the time I sit him down to say that I know about it, the additional time of reflection (ie. she said she could listen to the truth, and now she's telling me the truth) might mean he can actually discuss it with me (ie. admit the truth) rather than simply retreat back into denial as a defensive reaction.

Or do you think it would it be better coming as a shock?

I don't think he knows or suspects that I already know. I'm fairly certain of that actually or he'd be doing a better job of lying to me, covering his tracks better. He's crappy at it...

I'm not referring to a day or a week of leaving him to ponder about your planned conversation. Certainly he will admit or deny.

I am saying that if he doesn't agree to stop the PA and work on marital recovery that you should then go about improving yourself but not allow him to "have" any of the benefits but only "see" them whenever you have the opportunity to interact. There are consequences to having an A, one being that you don't get to have two women at once meeting your needs. If you continue to meet all of his needs that OW doesn't, then you are helping him to not have to deal with the consequences of his poor behavior and you enable him to continue. No consequences = no motivation to change.

Thanks mthrrhbard...

To be honest, it has taken every scrap of sanity and inner strength I have to get through each day and head for the next milestone. So in general, I try to avoid thinking of the next step until it is actually in front of me.

But I am very interested in what you propose and have a question for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am saying that if he doesn't agree to stop the PA and work on marital recovery that you should then go about improving yourself but not allow him to "have" any of the benefits but only "see" them whenever you have the opportunity to interact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you share a bit more of what you mean? Perhaps give me a concrete example?

I am asking because I am trying to make up for being the "wife who abandoned her husband" by showing him that we can find a new paradigm for relating to each other in a positive, supportive way. Therefore, I've simply assumed up until now that if he won't end the A, I would have to move to a Plan B fairly quickly.

For one thing, I've already lived with the knowledge of the A for 2 months, and I can feel that I am starting to run out of patience.

And deep down I now believe that if he can't choose once the A is in the open, if he isn't remorseful, then my feeling is that he has not yet hit his own bottom.

I am meeting his EN which is what has swivelled him from OW to me over the past 2 months. The EA part of this A is what is so hurtful to me...the PA is less of an issue, although N/C would obviously take care of both sides of the A!

But if I read you right, if he wouldn't agree to end the A, then I would abandon him, stop meeting his EN again? Wouldn't he then just go back to OW and see everything I've done over the past 2 months as false?

Again, I assumed I would Plan B rather than allow myself to slide backwards in the Plan A results and/or exhaust my love by having to watch him continue to self-destruct.

I don't know...I guess I figured he'd feel remorse/guilt in part because it is written all over his face whenever something happens now, but also because I can't believe that he would continue (for long) once he knew I knew. Slippage? Sure. Renewed contact? Quite likely. But actually just go on behaving as if it hadn't been laid bare between us? No.

How could I do anything but leave him to deal with the consequences at that point?

I guess these are questions I should ask the counsellor...yeesh. I find it hard to imagine continuing to live with the A openly between us...it is devastating having to live with it right now as a slowly evaporating entity. I've been crying all week long this week. Far from getting easier, I find it is getting harder because it hasn't ended yet...slowed but not gone.

Once again, I appreciate your insight...been there, done that. Shared wisdom is a gift, even if all situations are different!

Thanks mthrrhbard...

To be honest, it has taken every scrap of sanity and inner strength I have to get through each day and head for the next milestone. So in general, I try to avoid thinking of the next step until it is actually in front of me.

But I am very interested in what you propose and have a question for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am saying that if he doesn't agree to stop the PA and work on marital recovery that you should then go about improving yourself but not allow him to "have" any of the benefits but only "see" them whenever you have the opportunity to interact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you share a bit more of what you mean? Perhaps give me a concrete example?

I am asking because I am trying to make up for being the "wife who abandoned her husband" by showing him that we can find a new paradigm for relating to each other in a positive, supportive way. Therefore, I've simply assumed up until now that if he won't end the A, I would have to move to a Plan B fairly quickly.

For one thing, I've already lived with the knowledge of the A for 2 months, and I can feel that I am starting to run out of patience.

And deep down I now believe that if he can't choose once the A is in the open, if he isn't remorseful, then my feeling is that he has not yet hit his own bottom.

I am meeting his EN which is what has swivelled him from OW to me over the past 2 months. The EA part of this A is what is so hurtful to me...the PA is less of an issue, although N/C would obviously take care of both sides of the A!

But if I read you right, if he wouldn't agree to end the A, then I would abandon him, stop meeting his EN again? Wouldn't he then just go back to OW and see everything I've done over the past 2 months as false?

Again, I assumed I would Plan B rather than allow myself to slide backwards in the Plan A results and/or exhaust my love by having to watch him continue to self-destruct.

I don't know...I guess I figured he'd feel remorse/guilt in part because it is written all over his face whenever something happens now, but also because I can't believe that he would continue (for long) once he knew I knew. Slippage? Sure. Renewed contact? Quite likely. But actually just go on behaving as if it hadn't been laid bare between us? No.

How could I do anything but leave him to deal with the consequences at that point?

I guess these are questions I should ask the counsellor...yeesh. I find it hard to imagine continuing to live with the A openly between us...it is devastating having to live with it right now as a slowly evaporating entity. I've been crying all week long this week. Far from getting easier, I find it is getting harder because it hasn't ended yet...slowed but not gone.

Once again, I appreciate your insight...been there, done that. Shared wisdom is a gift, even if all situations are different!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am asking because I am trying to make up for being the "wife who abandoned her husband" by showing him that we can find a new paradigm for relating to each other in a positive, supportive way. Therefore, I've simply assumed up until now that if he won't end the A, I would have to move to a Plan B fairly quickly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Moving to Plan B is tenuous at best when spouses have been separated and Plan A changes haven't had the opportunity to be noticed on a daily basis. WS tends to remain skeptical if all the efforts are simply a ploy to win them back. That said, I myself found dealing with the A out in the open and in my face was even a less tolerable option than loosing the marriage completely. I could not even deal with my H's indecision as to whether to remain married or not, we had to separate.

I had been neglectful in my marriage and had let my priorities get way out of whack. I needed for my H to see that he was important to me and that I was sincere about changing. At the same time, I wouldn't tolerate an ongoing A ( thank God he ended it upon discovery)or his wishy washy indecision on whether to stay married or not. So what I did was kind of act "as if" I making the needed changes I would inevitably have to make if he chose not to return to the marriage. I lived my life, I sought support in being a single parent, I took a leave of absense from work to pull myself together, and went to IC. I did not fawn and fret over WS. No drama was my mantra. I did not put on hold any of my plans to make his life easier as a separated marriage partner. If he wanted to see me and I was avaialable then we saw each other and I plan A'd to the hilt. If I was busy , then, oh well. That is a consequence of being separated. He got the message loud and clear that if he didn't make up his mind in a reasonable amount of time, I would move on. HOWEVER, in not going to a true Plan B where I would not have the benefit of him seeing my Plan A changes, I allowed contact so he could see the new me and want the new me. Of course until he committed to coming home and working on the marriage he didn't get to "have" all the new me. He got glimpses and tastes of the new woman I was evolving into.

Your H has to choose to live this new paradigm you have in mind. You must be convincing and consistent in your changes and he needs the opportunity to see them and sample them. If you can do that while at the same time appearing confident and determined to move forward if he choses not to quit the A you will be giving him much to think about. The discomfort he experiences from seeing a new, better you, ready to move ahead if he doesn't pull it together can be the catalyst for him to leave OW behind for good. If you go to a strict Plan B he doesn't have the opportunity to see or be tempted into recovery by the NEW you.

One ? for you. You say his PA has been during periods of drunkeness. How much has/does alcohol affect your relationship with him?

Thanks for your explanation...I will need to think about this some more. Obviously!

re: alcohol...I've been mulling this over a lot. In my opinion, he's been in MLC/depression for some time now. Hindsight is 20/20 but I certainly regret that I didn't take different steps a long time ago. Whatever the case, I did abandon him emotionally late last year, and then physically this year.

While this is still no excuse for an A before ending the marriage, I hold myself equally responsible because I feel I did not support him in his time of need and am doing so now as a penance and out of love. Truly I think other BS are brave to do so without feeling the level of remorse that I do.

But his A is based purely on self-destructive tendencies. The OW is an alcohol-based buddy, she encourages him in ever-escalating drinking problems and is herself an alcoholic.

I don't drink. In addition, about 3 years ago I used our relationship to get him to stop drinking hard liquor, to stop abusing alcohol.

The counsellor says she believes the A and alcohol etc. are all part of the same problem. If he decides to work on the underlying issues, they can be dealt with as one package and she doesn't think he sounds that bad, I guess because it is all tied into MLC??? He seems bad enough to me but again I guess it is because he doesn't have other consequences as a result -- fighting, abuse, drunk driving, financial hardship, etc. that the alcohol isn't considered serious.

I wonder though...his behaviour just in the past 2 weeks has clarified into saying and doing 1 thing while sober (the "good" H, clearly working towards recommitting, ending contact -- subtly! -- with OW, and coming home instead of going out partying) and another while drinking (loud, obnoxious, PA, etc.).

It wasn't this clear before (ie. 2 months ago)... all behaviour was unpleasant.

Before this year of incredible stress (parent dying, major car accident, severe health problems), except for the event mentioned above, alcohol wasn't the problem between us, it was his attitude, bad outlook on life.

As I see it, alcohol was the release for other frustrations -- they got worse, drinking increased. I'm not making excuses though -- if you believe any problem with alcohol = alcoholic, then he certainly qualifies. But that's not how I see it...

Now I will plead guilty of trying to manipulate him: one of the benefits I wanted out of MC (he refused to go for over a year which is why I left him...it was my bottom line) was for a counsellor to explore these underlying issues with him. While he would admit he had a problem, he refused to see a MC because he said they would "take my side" over his.

I should have gone alone but there's that 20/20 hindsight again...

Our main area of disagreement was that his anger and frustration with life were not where I wanted to be. I wanted to move on with positive attitudes to life, not exist in negativity.

But now as I read about MLC, the bells keep going off. I think he's been there for a while. And the alcohol use is related to the impulse disordered behaviour, basically a teenager drinking binge. Sad at 43 but not atypical...nor is the A...

I feel my timeline is limited though. I need to see concrete changes in him in response to my new approach: love and caring rather than ranting and raving. I've already seen several: he's caught himself and apologized when he's gotten angry at me; he's stopped getting angry at me; he's calmed down and gotten less frenetic in his search for "himself".

But this approach isn't simply a strategy to bring him back. I really do see it as self-discovery and -- other than him -- I am feeling a whole lot better about life already. I know things will BE better because they are already FEELING better.

I cry and howl still...but I know this too will pass with time. My self-defence course is going great although my arms are bruised today! Martial arts is probably a good suggestion for any BS I figure...

<small>[ October 01, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Awed,

You sound like you are doing great. I agree whole heartedly that any plan for true marital recovery must be one that is more than simply a plan to "win back" the WS. You sound like you have a fine grasp on that and on making yourself a better marital partner......with or without him.

Ahhhhh....MLC! I know it well. My H too had been depressed for years, denied it everytime I suggested it and was miserable. Living with him was miserable. I reacted miserably. Perfect recipe for an A. A is often self medication for the depression of MLC. So too the alcohol or whatever substance does the trick of making the WS/MLC feel better about themselves and life. You already seem well versed in all of this. That is a blessing.

Good luck in letting H know you know. You'll get much support here if you decide this is a good place for you. All the best to you and I'll say a prayer that things go as you hope!

Thank you mthrrhbard!!! It means so much to me to hear you validate what I'm thinking, given your experience. The counsellor has as well, but that reeeeaaaaally expensive hour goes by in a flash and I need to limit them to once every 2 weeks.

This board has kept me going through some really rough patches so far, although some days it triggers a lot of pain instead of giving hope.

You know, in February he actually said in a letter to me that he was going through MLC...what a moron I was! I had no idea what that meant. But if the A actually gets him out of depression, then it will have been worth it.

And that is something I never thought I'd hear myself saying. But even 2 weeks into Plan A (modified, I know) I told my mom the same thing. I couldn't FEEL it yet but I knew I was on a road of enlightenment, permanent enlightenment. About a month ago, I actually started feeling it too.

I'm still in so much pain but outside of this huge black hole of insecurity/pain/ache/loss -- my M and my H -- I am actually happier than I have been in years. That's why I'm awed and not broken...

A few thoughts ....

I think it's OK to simply say what you know is a fact. ie; "I know you and OW are seeing each other"

I think it's a mistake to set a trap to see if he will dispute your facts ... ie; "Are you seeing someone?" Don't ask if you already know.

Don't argue what you know to be a fact. If he denies, simply say, "I know this is a difficult fact to discuss."

I think you can say this with ownership of what it means to you personally, in other words, your feelings. ie; "My heart hurts when I think about you with OW. I cry a lot. Sometimes it's hard to breathe."

I think you can say this with ownership of your previous marital errors. ie; "I neglected you and for that I have so many regrets."

I think you can say this expressing hope for a fabulous future together .... "I have the will and the desire and the strength to work with you ... rebuilding a M that is mutually satisfying"

I think you can be tender and vulnerable. "I see how much I've lost. I miss so you much. My bed feels empty, my life feels empty .... I's like to take my past mistakes and regrets and turn them around ... Use our pain to work toward our future hopes and dreams."

I think the alcohol issue is a BIGGIE .... and it can be left to another discussion.

Pep

Thanks Pep for providing such excellent, practical suggestions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Since I haven&#8217;t been able to schedule in quality solo time with H yet during this extremely hectic week, I&#8217;m sure these will prove to be VERY useful to me. I particularly liked the advice about not arguing truth, and the simple/elegant phrase you suggest for responding to denial.

Pep: why don&#8217;t you want to discuss the alcohol issue here? Should I start a new thread? I&#8217;m asking because I am very conflicted about the true role this is playing in our lives. After reading everything I could find on this site yesterday, I still believe it is a secondary, not primary problem, just as the A itself is secondary, not primary as it is in many other M crises I read about in the forum.

Perhaps you think I&#8217;m in denial. My father was an alcoholic so I think I&#8217;m pretty vigilant, but wherever the truth lies, I want to consider ideas/challenges openly in my heart and mind. I am responsible for making my decisions, quite apart from anything he does or is. And I&#8217;d like to make those decisions armed with as much information as possible.

Pep: why don&#8217;t you want to discuss the alcohol issue here?

Alcohol muddies most of the communications in an alcoholic family .... even when there is a period of sobriety. Someone is usually playing either caretaker, martyr or victim ... and the other is usually playing naughty child, or needy child, or victim. But, the communication pattern can be very subtle, as it is with us.

All you can do is check yourself. What voice you are using when you communicate, and what voice is answering back .... and how do you respond when the naughty boy speaks to you

vs ~~ how you respond when the victim boy speaks
vs ~~ the needy boy.....

I just don't know if this subject is germain to your original question.... if you say it is, then it is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />



<small>[ October 03, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>