My husband has told the OW that he is working on our marriage. He's been caring and attentive to me and is meeting my needs better than he has in years. I have no suspicions that he has been continuing on an affair.

She left a text message on his cell phone a few weeks ago, which I intercepted. I asked him to change his phone number. He says he can't because it's a work phone, and that also, she would find the number because his new one would be published, then she has access to it. I asked him if it would be possible for him to have no contact with her, and he said "not really".

So this morning, he left his phone on the desk. I checked the history and she has sent more than three messages to him since d day a few weeks ago. I asked him if they've talked, and he says he helps her with translations at work. He also admitted that he did a favor for her while he was travelling last week.

He feels guilt about his short term affair (about two weeks long) and I believe him when he says he's committed to working on the marriage. But I explained to him that obviously she is still hoping for more. He claimed that she is "over him", but I know this can't be true because one of her messages said "do you still have feelings for me?"

He has finally agreed to have no contact with her, but he doesn't sound convinced that it's necessary. For some idiotic reason, he thinks he still has a right to be friends with this woman <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He hates the POJA. Could I ever possibly make him understand how important it is to me?

I have this woman's phone number. Sometimes I feel like calling her. What would I say?

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Seven years ]</small>

Sounds like he's ripe for relapse. My H, too, was very serious about recovery for six weeks -- then relapse. The spirit is willing but the flesh...

I'll let more experienced people comment. This is your Sunday

bump

Babble, that is fog babble and he knows it. But he is 'hoping' you are in the fog also and will buy the fact that his A is unique. Mine said the same, then I said 'if you were soooo unique, then why are you babbling the same stuff I am hearing from the other Ws'? That shut him up for a while.

I also told the WS if he is having it soo good with the A, then what is he doing here?

Another one, if he is in recovery (of sorts or whatever he calls it) then how come no one else knows?

Then I said, if I can not understand what you are saying, you are either talking like the OW or babbling again....which one is it?

Oh yea, one more.....if the WS is working on recovery and was as convincing to the OW as he claims, then how come she don't get it? Is she deaf, dumb or both? What part of NC is not clear to her or...... are you lying to me, you WS?

{sigh) I would put my hand to my forehead act like I was going to faint from all the babble gas!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Seven,

Sorry you have to go through this. Harley states that without NC, there is no recovery. Every time your H sees her, you and he are put back to D-Day. The only true way to start recovery is for him to send her a no contact letter and end ALL contact, even if he has to leave his job.

As far as contacting her yourself, there are 2 schools of thought, however, I will just tell you that Steve Harley has counseled some to do exactly that. By speaking to the OP, you put a face to a name she has just heard. Steve told the BS to ask him "what are your intentions for my w?" That question could very well wake her up.

Here is a pretty good article written by Harley that might be helpful:

"My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely.

It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again.

But what can a betrayed spouse do when the unfaithful spouse refuses to totally separate from the lover? That's where plan A and plan B come to the rescue. "

Con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

I did, by the way, call OW the day after D-Day, for precisely the reasons mentioned above (though she was an acquaintance already).

After asking her, "What on earth were you thinking giving b**w jobs to my H?" We spoke for several minutes, and I ended by saying, "If you learn anything from this, avoid fantasy-land. You don't know what you're getting into." She, of course, took that as a challenge. She was getting close to the pot of gold, and I must be threatened.

But she quoted it to someone else, months later, when she began to figure out I was telling her the truth.

Some learn slow, some learn fast.

Orchid, his affair IS unique. Every affair is, but they have enough similarities to apply the same principles to them.

I don't think his affair is an addiction. She was a wife substitute while he thought I didn't love him. Things are great as long as he knows I love him, but if we go through a rough spot, I don't want her there to catch him when he falls.

MelodyLane, he can't quit his job. His salary is in the six figure range. He'd have to leave the country, then he'd maybe find a job for about $30,000, where we wouldn't be getting free accomodations and utilities either. I have supported this decision.

Thanks for the quote from Harley. That sums up a lot for me. He honestly does not think he is at threat for another affair. He can't understand why I don't see that his affair is any different from anyone else who cheated on his wife. He can't understand why I have doubts, however small, that he is "over" her.

Orchid, his affair IS unique. Every affair is, but they have enough similarities to apply the same principles to them.[/b[
Most affairs are NOT unique. They seem to be because it's something you've never experienced before.

[b]MelodyLane, he can't quit his job.
Why not?

His salary is in the six figure range. He'd have to leave the country, then he'd maybe find a job for about $30,000, where we wouldn't be getting free accomodations and utilities either. I have supported this decision.
So the money and benefits of the job are more important than the marriage?

He can't understand why I don't see that his affair is any different from anyone else who cheated on his wife.
It WASN'T any different than most affairs.

So the money and benefits of the job are more important than the marriage?

This one really bothered me two years ago, before he decided to take the job. I told him our marriage was not great, we were going to have problems. He insisted on taking the job.

I probably even used your same words. He swears that the money and job benefits are NOT more important than the marriage, but his actions say otherwise.

Yes, the job is more important to him than the marriage. I can't change his mind about that. I have to live with it. I can leave him here, go back to Canada, rent an apartment, be miserable, and wonder how much time he's spending with other women, or I can stay here, work on the marriage, meet his needs while he meets mine, and trust him that he loves me and will never cheat on me again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> or I can stay here, work on the marriage, meet his needs while he meets mine, and trust him that he loves me and will never cheat on me again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a pretty good plan, except for one thing...you don't have to trust, when someone's behavior is showing them to be untrustworthy. Believing he can be friendsd with someone he committed adultery with is not trustworthy behavior. He has not earned your trust.

You can give him the opportunity to show that he loves you, and the time for him to be consistantly behaving trustworthily...but trust him, I wouldn't advise that while the contact continues in this manner.

My marriage is one of the few here that has survived a co-worker infidelity and that contact continues...but the PA reignited 3-4 times over an 18 month period, the EA was longer--emails as he swore he never had any personal contact.

Your post is full of red flags
-unwillingness to cease personal contact.
-wants to be friends
-he's done a favor for her
-he doesn't want POJA with YOU (how about as a favor?)
-her being a wife subsitute is no improvment over addiction.
-you seem to be saying if he feels unloved by you, he could have an A--that's blaming YOU for his affair.

What exactly does he think is different about his affair?

He's stronger that other WSs? (no, he's disproved that one by having the A)

OW over him? (no, because because she's still asked about his feelings, if she didn't care, she wouldn't ask)

I don't see a thing "unique" about his situation, other than in the premise that each person in the world is unique.

I feel like I'm berating you, and that isn't my intention...if he's committed to the marriage, his consistant, understanding behavior will show that.

I'd advise you to do Plan A, but keep your wits about you.

That thing about having an affair because he doesn't feel you love him would gall me. So suppose he STILL doesn't believe you REALLY love him -- even if you say so every day and hug and kiss him? Is he entitled to an affair THEN? He could jimmy that one as an excuse for anything.

Lor, thanks for the thoughts. I don't see them as berating.

I will ask him what he thinks was different about his affair as compared to other men that have had affairs. I think he thinks that because he feels guilty about it, that it makes it different. He probably doesn't realize that many people continue the cheating even when they feel tremendous guilt.

When I asked him "Don't you think it's inappropriate for you to be having a friendship with someone that you slept with?" He said "No." I said "Well, why not?" and he replied "Because I'm not doing anything inappropriate in the friendship." So I pointed out that SHE is doing something inappropriate in the relationship, and this is when he told me that he would not answer her calls any more. I don't know whether or not he has ever initiated calls to her since he told me of the affair.

I think he honestly feels he is not at risk for "reoffending", and that's why he doesn't see anything wrong in his behavior. But how will he feel if things get not-so-great between us again?

A.M., he had an affair because I was not demonstrating loving actions towards him. (After I was gone for four weeks, he asked me if I missed him and I said "No". He did ask me if I loved him, and I said "yes" but I guess that wasn't as important.) He believes I love him now. However, if I stop telling him every day, or forget to hug and kiss him as much as he'd like, then I'm very scared of what may happen, now that I know what he is capable of.

About the job. This was not just a selfish choice that he made. This was a decision that he said was "best for the family"

"Yeah," I said "as long as you still HAVE a family."

He doesn't think that we would make enough gains in our marriage by being in Canada to offset the many gains that we are experiencing here. I'd have to have a job in Canada. We'd have way more stress. Our daughter wouldn't have as good a school to go to. All of us have a lot of great friends here. Lots of reasons to be happy that we're here, which make me always finally agree to stay.

Our marriage could fall apart in Canada too. It's not necessarily any better to be there than here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Seven years:
<strong>
When I asked him "Don't you think it's inappropriate for you to be having a friendship with someone that you slept with?" He said "No." I said "Well, why not?" and he replied "Because I'm not doing anything inappropriate in the friendship." So I pointed out that SHE is doing something inappropriate in the relationship, and this is when he told me that he would not answer her calls any more. I don't know whether or not he has ever initiated calls to her since he told me of the affair.

I think he honestly feels he is not at risk for "reoffending", and that's why he doesn't see anything wrong in his behavior. But how will he feel if things get not-so-great between us again?

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seven, he doesn't have a "friendship" with this woman, that is where his thinking is wrong. It has gone way beyond "friendship." It is very inappropriate and you don't have to ask him if it is to know that.

If they are just "friends" then you can have her over and you can ALL be "friends."

The continued contact hurts you deeply and prevents ANY HOPE of recovery. Unless he purposely wants to continue to hurt you, he has to end the "friendship" with a no contact letter. Seven, this is a boundary that you don't even want to waffle about. It is absolutely essential to recovery and it disturbs me that he won't take even minimal steps to protect you.

He has told me now that he will stop contact. He didn't realize before how deep a pain it was to me for him to continue contact.

A lot of this advice is not really helpful to me. I learned from Star*fish months ago that I can't expect my husband to change, but I can expect myself to change.

So he won't leave his job, but has agreed to stop contact, except in cases where it directly involves his work. I can't make him do anything. Best I can do is explain my feelings and hope that he makes choices that I can live with.

MelodyLane, I sent him the quote from Harley that you posted, and he doesn't agree with it. Again, nothing I can do to change his mind. I don't think I could get him to sign a no contact letter, whatever that means, but I feel better knowing he understands my pain now.

No more advice uless it is things that I can actively do to improve things, please. Your thoughts especially, Lor, are welcome.

No more advice uless it is things that I can actively do to improve things, please.
?? Just kinda curious as to what advice was given that was different?

Seven,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No more advice uless it is things that I can actively do to improve things, please. Your thoughts especially, Lor, are welcome.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't control me like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, I will try to be useful to you. I read through many of your previous posts over the last months.

Your H feeling guilt is better than if he didn't feel it at all, but he doesn't seem to be exhibiting remorse or a sense of restitution toward you.

It's true you can't make him feel either of those, nor can you change him, but I think maybe we're all trying to be sure that even if you can't change him, you need to be aware of the reality that you are on a long, hard road with continued contact.

My best advice for co-worker affairs, is for the BS to first Plan A. No matter the outcome of the marriage, if you feel you have given it your best effort, then you won't have as many regrets if the marriage fails and if the marriage recovers, again, you gave your best effort.

I'm going to be blunt, I think your H's affair is ongoing. Maybe just emotionally, maybe more. A couple weeks ago, she text mgsed him during non-office hours about how he feels about her, weeks after they've had sex. That indicates the PA was not ended at that point, it also is the kind of thing an OP does to "mark her territory" infringing on time with the spouse.

So, back to you, at this point, it sounds like you want your marriage. If so, dealing with an ongoing affair is not much different than dealing with an ended PA with a co-worker.

-Ask for accountability from him. Email & voice mail passwords, that he carry his cell phone. That you have access to his cell phone and that he doesn't clear the history (if his cell works that way). That he calls if he is going to be late or change his schedule.

-Access to his workplace. Can you drop in? Have lunch with him?

I suspect your H won't tell you everytime he talks to her, but ask him to tell you if they have any kind of talk about "them" or "life".

If he's relunctant on any of these, it's a red flag, but do your best not to lovebust--angry outbursts, demands, disrespect.

I didn't add that my H & I separated 7 times as he & the OW broke off & reignited. I basically out-waited her selfish demands and anger that he still wasn't divorced. He never went to a lawyer, but told her we were getting a divorce. At the same time, except for the confession of the affair, he always denied he was seeing her/in an affair.

At the 7th separation, I ended my 18 month Plan A when I discovered the EA contact was still ongoing, even though the OW was dating H's former housemate, and I served divorce papers.

At that point my H realized he didn't want a divorce, he didn't want to lose me or his family and he had a complete change of heart and pulled himself together. We reconciled after 3-4 months. The time from PA to reconciliation was 2+ years.

You are probably thinking/hoping you won't go through anything like that. I would hope so too. It would be excellent if your situation is unique.

But...this forum is full of co-worker affairs that re-ignite weeks, months, even years later.

That's why Melody Lane is posting to you the absolute need of "no contact" and Orchid & AM can speak about affairs re-igniting and Chris the deception when the OP is a co-worker.

So, it would be excellent if your situation is unique, if it is not, in order for true recovery, you'll need a lot of patience, forbearance, and steadfastedness.

Seven years I know how you feel, my WS has/is having an EA with a co-worker, my best girlfriend. He too feels that he can just avoid her and not have N/c. He says due to legal things right now he can't leave and she doesn't want to because she makes more $$ working part time there then if she went full time at her other job. I beleive thats a bunch of **** I think she likes having a daily contact with him. Ours is different in that she doesn't contact him or encourage it according to WS because they both feel that there is no way this relationship could work because the con's of being together would out weight the pros. Because her ex husband was my WS best friend and she was mine. Her children were like my neices and mine her nephews. I think this just gives her a angel like quality in his eyes that she would go against her real desires in his best interest again ****.
km4
me 39
ws 44
2 boys 11 and 4
married 17 years
ow was my best friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Seven years:
<strong>He has told me now that he will stop contact. He didn't realize before how deep a pain it was to me for him to continue contact.

A lot of this advice is not really helpful to me. I learned from Star*fish months ago that I can't expect my husband to change, but I can expect myself to change.

So he won't leave his job, but has agreed to stop contact, except in cases where it directly involves his work. I can't make him do anything. Best I can do is explain my feelings and hope that he makes choices that I can live with.

MelodyLane, I sent him the quote from Harley that you posted, and he doesn't agree with it. Again, nothing I can do to change his mind. I don't think I could get him to sign a no contact letter, whatever that means, but I feel better knowing he understands my pain now.

No more advice uless it is things that I can actively do to improve things, please. Your thoughts especially, Lor, are welcome.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seven, I am glad he has agreed to end contact, that will be a huge help! I am sorry my advice is not helpful and won't post anymore to you, but I wanted to point out that I have posted the advice of STEVE HARLEY, not myself, about the absolute necessity of no contact. Your H may not agree with it, but it is true. And Harley is the professional.

And yes, you are right, you cannot change him, but you can negotiate much needed boundaries to protect yourself. You do have a say in your own marriage since it effects you.

A no contact letter is what Harley recommends sending to the OP to officially end the affair. It's purpose is to ask the OP to cease all contact and WS demonstrates a recommitment to the BS and the marriage. It is a very important step in recovery. Here are Harley's comments on writing a no contact article: [please read the entire article, it is really good!]

"How should an unfaithful spouse tell his lover that their relationship is over? If left to their own devices, many would take a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. Obviously, that will not do. In fact, I recommend that the final good-bye be in the form of a letter, and not in person or even by telephone.

My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent."

con'd at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

***So he won't leave his job, but has agreed to stop contact, except in cases where it directly involves his work. I can't make him do anything.***

Gods, this is making my head explode.

" . . . except in cases where it directly involves his work." Hon, that could mean ANYTHING. I found out not long ago that according to my H, there is no such thing as a "social occasion" at work. EVERYTHING they do is a "business necessity," INCLUDING taking his young female co-manager out for a special private birthday lunch complete with a special present (all of which they made sure I knew nothing about.) INCLUDING his own off-site birthday party where he insists there was no reason to invite me or even let me know ahead of time.

He is not considering your feelings in this at all, is he? Of course not. In a marriage, both spouses are supposed to consider AT ALL TIMES how their partner would feel about their actions and how they are making their partner look. But there are plenty of selfish people who completely ignore this and decide that their spouse don't need this kind of respect, because that would be inconvenient when it comes to their own social life. And many of them get very, very nasty if said spouse finally tries to stand up for herself.

***Best I can do is explain my feelings and hope that he makes choices that I can live with.***

Hope is not enough to keep a marriage alive. You are placing your naked beating heart in his hands and hoping he doesn't toss it in the gutter. He's already shown you how much he cares about your heart and your feelings.

You have to take care of yourself. You cannot trust him to do it. He's already shown you that.

Independent behavior has no place in a marriage, because everything one partner does is going to have some kind of affect on the other. Don't let him keep acting this way, because he'll push it just as far as he possibly can until the day he finally pulls his head out and wakes up.

Independent behavior is for single people with no spouse and no kids. If that's what he wants, he should be man enough to tell you and get out.

Someday maybe people will learn that stomping all over someone else's heart and soul is NOT the way to find happiness.

7,

How are you doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.