I need some advice from MB friends.

A friend of mine is making a hash of her life and whilst I know I can't save her, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to watch what she is doing to her M without trying something else to help her.

Long story short, she had an A (pretty short-lived as he is in the States) around the same time as my own A was ongoing. Honestly, we both encouraged each other, but now having learned as I have, I can't encourage her anymore. She lied to OM about her M status too, told him she was separated. The PA ended, although of course to OM, he didn't even know it was a PA, just someone he was sleeping with, as she had told him she was in essence single. However, she visits NYC regularly and every single time she meets him, for coffee, dinner, although no PA, she is clearly still very much in an EA.

We had a long talk this week again about the situation. Her H she considers to be a wonderful man. She "adores" him in her own words. After going through a pretty rocky patch (when the PA was ongoing), things have come round and she appears very happy. They have just put an offer in on a huge house in the middle of nowhere, she had an interview for a BIG job, he is changing jobs, life should be peachy sweet.

Yet, OM gets in touch, and of course, you know what happens. She starts to doubt everything. Currently she is making plans to spend her birthday with him in NYC - champagne bar followed by flash dinner (needing a new dress).

I've tried everything to explain why this upsets her, I've suggested she does NC, I asked her how would she feel if her H were planning to meet another woman on his b'day, buying new outfits going to champagne bars. She goes quiet, and says "He wouldn't". I try to explain how disrespectful she is being of her husband, nothing seems to get through. I explain that all the time she continues to have OM in her life, she will not be able to build a future with her H. Nothing gets through, she is stubborn and foolish. The worst thing is and she can't even see it is that OM doesn't have feelings for her, other than someone he had a bit of a fling with who he now sees as a mate. She honestly thinks one day?

So this week after telling me how well things are going with her H, the following day she tells me she has come to a decision. She will leave her H to pursue life by herself (OM not necessary). She is adamant that much as she adores him, they have a great sex life, planning on moving to this wonderful house, oh and BTW she thought she was pregnant last month and was devastated to find out she wasn't, now she's leaving him.

Her H is a good bloke. Everyone says it. Yeah, sure we don't live with him, but everyone likes him. Nothing I say or do does anything. I tried to get her to read SAA, she refused. I've tried to get her to IC, she refused. I've tried to get her to NC, doesn't work. I try to tell her to be honest with her H, but that is the biggest no no of all.

What else can I do? One thing I could do, which would of course end our friendship is to tell her H about OM. At least then he would have all the info and could decide himself whether or not to stay in the M. This doesn't sit well with me though. I'm not sure what my motivation is to do this. I know my motivations in trying to help my friend. I hate to see her making such a mess of her life. But if I told him, I'm not sure I could become involved, but then I feel a party to her lies and deceipt anyways. I don't think she understands how I absolutely deplore this behaviour and it makes me feel sick to my stomach to see her chucking her life up in the air.....

Any thoughs anyone? It's really sitting very uncomfortably with me now.

Lisa

<small>[ October 30, 2003, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

How about telling her how hard it is to sit and listen to her lie to her H and she should tell her H. If she doesn't, then you will. Give her a time limit. Tell her you will go visit him during her next trip out of town. Perhaps she wants you to tell him, perhaps she's been looking for the nudge to tell him.

Lose her friendship? Perhaps for a while, till she comes out of the fog, then she'll come to you for advice...

Even if she tells H, I would doublecheck with him. How to do that in a respectful way? Hmmm

Lisa please seriously reconsider your friendship with this woman. I say this because if she can do this to the man she made vows to love and protect, what's to stop her from betraying you in the future if there is a chance to do so? Furthermore, being friends with her may be opening deep wounds for you that have just started to heal.

Lisa you ARE a true friend who has given her the best advice she can get to save her marriage, but if she is reluctant to follow it, then sadly there is nothing much you can do except end your friendship with her.

Mmm...I have to humbly THWACK TMCM.

Maybe it's a difference in our personality types...but I'm not one to drop a friend just because they aren't being very smart at the moment. I actually have a couple of dear friends that I STILL consider friends, although we aren't around each other very much any more. Our choices and paths have led us in different directions, but I've chosen to accept them and their choices anyway.

And on the flip side of that...when I was being a complete @ss and digging my own holes...my friends didn't abandon me. At first they tried to support me, then they got tired of the rollercoaster ride. But they were still there for me. I could tell they weren't happy with my choices, and in the end...that mattered. My friends opinions of me mattered...and they weren't real impressed with my decisions up to that point.

I would just give her a copy of His Needs/Her Needs and Surviving an Affair and/or point her to this website. You wouldn't have to tell her your posting name if you wanted to keep yourself anonymous.

I guess I just think that's what being a friend is about. Not just yucking it up when things are going well...but being there when things are going to hell, even when it is of your own making.

Lisa, your friend made you an accomplice to her betrayal by making you her confidant. If her H ever finds out that you knew about her A but kept quiet, he may have more resentment towards you than for her (a very common scenario for many BS's). Besides, ending your friendship with her could be temporary and you could resume it when she ends all contact with the OM. This in a way, MAY open her eyes that there are indeed consequences to her behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:

Mmm...I have to humbly THWACK TMCM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H4F if your H had an A and his closests friends knew about the A but kept the secret to themselves, would you like your H to continue being friends with them?

In many cases, it is the friends of the WS (who knew but didn't tell) that end up paying a higher price than the WS him/herself. I just hate to see Lisa becoming one of these people, especially when she was being a true friend and advicing her friend to end the A and all contact with the OM.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I've seen that first hand, actually. I have a very good friend who was told by a WS that he was having an affair on her good friend. He gloated that if she'd tell he'd deny it and no one would believe her anyway. She felt pretty stuck. She chose not to tell, but stood by her friend and supported her during her confusion and all. I think, in her case, she should have told. But the WS was not the one she was closest to. At the same time...we all agree (including the BS) that had she told...the BS would not have believed them and the friendship would have been severed at that point because of the accusation. The friendship really didn't make it anyway.

I don't think Lisa should support her friend to her own detriment. But I don't think that ending the friendship is necessary either.

Write your friend a lengthy letter that explains all your feelings about the matter. Tell her how you want for her to have a great life and that you know her current path isn't going to take her there. Tell her that you regret having encouraged each other down that path in the first place and that you can't continue to support her decision to take that path. You can tell her care about her but that being her confidant right now is putting you in a moral dilemma.

Essentially...you CAN Plan B your friend. It's still not ENDING the relationship...it's putting the decision and ultimate consequences out of your hands and back in to hers...which is where it needs to be. My friends backed way off from me, and that's the best thing they ever could have done.

But they didn't just permanently end the friendship. And they didn't allow me to come waltzing back in to their lives like nothing had happend either. I gave them apologies and I had to prove to them that I was sincere in pulling my head out of my butt.

So I understand what you're saying TMCM...and sincerely, it's probly does have a lot to do with our personality types...but I'm an ENFP, and I don't let go of frienships if at all possible.

Wow, thanks everyone, this really is a nasty old can of worms. I appreciate all your words and take quite a bit from all of them.

SHMI - I think I will try again to explain to her why she should tell her H. Sadly, unless people come to MB, inevitably they thing it's a silly thing to do - tell all. If I told her H I know she would never speak to me again. Funny thing was, the week before Pound Man found out, I had decided I should tell him about my A..... Look what happened when I didn't. I think coupled with that I must try and try to get her to look at SAA and HNHN. When I tried before she said "I don't do books". She is so adamantly against IC and any sort of self help it is beyond belief. She believes everything can be sorted out in a practical way - make a plan and it will be fine.

H4F - I know too. My friends didn't drop me when I was being an a$$ and she was one of them that carried me through some of the darkest days of withdrawal and the pain after D-Day with Pound Man. She never gave up on me even when X was adamant that I had to drop her (CM is right in that respect). He heaped blame onto her and another friend, but the truth was, they only supported me, and of course I made my M into the worst thing ever. BUT, having said that, it just troubles me her behaviour. I wish she would read the books. But nothing I say or do is changing her outlook in anyway - and it is completely irratic. Swinging from one day to the next....

CM - I didn't post every last detail of this story, but some of the things you said are very eerily of concern for me, namely what would she do to me too. Quite recently she behaved in a very strange way towards me and I had to address it with her. Her excuse was just that. It was linked to the fact that I said I didn't want to talk about XOM, as that was exactly what he was and where he should be - past. It seemed she didn't like that, it's almost like she justifies her own behaviour if she thinks mine is the same, or I have the same thoughts as hers. I don't, and I don't think she knows how to deal with the fact that I abhor her behaviour and the way in which I have changed.

Recently, I've come to feel that I'm not always sure I trust her and her motives. She has made some very odd comments to my new Squeeze, (which he has told me about automatically) and he thinks she is "crazy". Her behaviour is pointing that way, but I do still worry about her.

I think maybe the thing about not being able to support her until she does the right thing is the way to handle it. You know even if she does want to end her M, then I would support her, if she stopped seeing OM too, although of course she doesn't seem him like that.

All I can say is that I am trying to be a friend to her, trying to point her in the right direction, trying to help, but her behaviour saddens me and scares me. I ask her if she wants to go through what I did, and she's always quick to say no, but not quick to change anything. I do want to help her as H4F says, because where would I have been if I hadn't been helped by my friends, family, MB Superstars? I'm just running out of options...

Lisa

Edited to say:

Hope thanks for your second post. I think it is becoming detrimental to me and I really like the idea of a letter, or maybe a coffee and a long talk. Whilst she has been behaving oddly towards me (I guess a lot of it is probably fog), she always says I'm like a sister to her (given that she's got 3 others that says a lot). I want to be that, but I can't bear it. Her H is a good man. He's already tried so hard to meet her needs by changing jobs etc. and supporting her as she wants, but it still doesn't seem enough. But I don't think I can help for much longer...

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Oh, and in all honesty...I would more than likely forgive his friends and have no problem with him still being friends with them....as long as I knew they didn't support his CHOICES and didn't help him to sneak around and lie. There's a difference...atleast to me. I wouldn't shun them for sticking by him as a friend, no. But that's just me.

My brother in law set my hubby up with a woman while we were seperated. I had a long talk with BIL one night about how I didn't really want this divorce and wish H would just pull his head out (yes, I was still in the fog). BIL never even told H. It made me mad, later when I found out...and even madder that he was secretly setting my H up to start dating before we were even divorced....but when we got back together I forgave and forgot. The situation wasn't one of his making...it was ours. Anyway...

Lisa, Plan B her. Give her a nice letter of love and support...but tell her the reality of her situation and what kind of a position she's putting on you. You don't have to stand beside her when her ships going down to be a good friend. You can be on the docks ready with a liferaft in case she decides to turn her life back around. Know what I mean???

"I don't do books"...I have a good friend who is the same way.

If you can afford them...get the books on CD...then she can listen in the car.

Lisa your 'friend's behavior towards your new 'squeeze' (BTW congratulations) is indeed cause for concern, and just proved my point that if she could easily betray her H, whom she says she 'adores', then it would not be farfetched to beleive that she could stab you in the back as well. Fortunately for you, your BF is an honest man (thank him the best way you can <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and by telling you about her behavior, he is giving you the chance to watch your back.

Hope - thank you for those great ideas and analogies. I know exactly what you mean about standing on the dock, and the idea of a loving Plan B letter is perhaps where I will have to go.

CM - You know this behaviour is so very strange, I honestly do think she is on the verge of some sort of mental crisis. I can't believe she would ever knowingly hurt me anymore than her H, but I think it is all part and parcel of the fog. It's why I just don't feel in my heart I can continue to support her in this way, but that I can't give up on her completely.

Many thanks on the congrats, I thought you knew about my honest Yank BF (I don't hold it against him you know, being a Yank <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) He is a good chap.

Lisa

LIL-

Sounds like the best course of action is to be there for your friend when/if she needs you while at the same time clearly stating your views on the matter. I think you're wise to not bail on the friendship just because she's making poor decisions.

The trick for you will be to keep things at a arms length with her and not get caught up in the drama as you don't need that right now. She's already exhibited irrational behavior to your friend (squeeze?, good for you!) so expect more of the same as the A progresses. Hopefully she'll get off the train before it's too late....

You know I've read and re-read what Hope and CM are saying, and I feel both of you have such valid points I fall in the middle. It's terrible to see her heading this way. I don't understand how she can say all this about her H, how wonderful he is etc. etc. and still not want to work on her M.

The more I think about it, the more I think a Plan B style letter/meeting would be the thing to do. I don't want to abandon her when she may really need me the most. It just seems she is so closed to listening to anything about what she is doing with OM. Nothing makes sense to her. The only things she picks up on, are things related towards OM, even when I'm not directing them towards him. So for example, I said to her "How can you be so deceitful (in relation to her H)?" and then "You even lied to OM about being M'd" She translates this to "You're right, how can I have an R with OM when I have been deceitful from the start" It is this completely irrational thought process and behaviour which I find so upsetting. I guess it's the fog talk....

Hey Litchfield, how are you? Long time no speak. Thanks for dropping by. You are right about keeping her at arms length, and I have to do that by telling her specifically (like the Plan B), otherwise she just calls me everyday. The funny thing is, her A is not progressing, it is going backwards. It was PA and now is EA, although she tells me that he is never intimate with her in terms of discussions. He talks about general things, but in her mind, she still has this surreal hope that he will be the man of her dreams. So on his part, it isn't even emotional. Even more bizare eh?

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. This is tough on me. Part of me does want to tell her H, but as I say, I can't do that, because I am not sure of my motivations. It would be wrong to do it without being clear on why. I can control my interaction with her though, and this seems to be the way in which I should go.

Thanks again.

Lisa

Lisa,

I have a few suggestions for you. I would like to suggest to you that you write her a letter, explaining how you have come to your firm convictions about ADULTERY. How you really love her as a friend, but cannot support her A.

I would point out that what makes this even more dumb is that she is having an affair with a man that isn't interested in her. Yet, you want to support and help her, thus you have offered her your best advice about ending the affair, telling her H, even offered to get some books for her. She has refused all of your offers.

After telling her this, I think you should make one last recommendation, and tell her this will be your last recommendation on this subject.

If I were writing this letter, the recommendation would be that she divorce her H, and have the decency to not take him to the cleaners in the divorce. He clearly deserves to be with a woman capable of love and commitment and she is NOT that woman.

Then I would simply end the letter. However, since I am not you, I would also come forward with the necessary information IF she tried to clean him out in the divorce.

I firmly believe not all marriages can be saved, and a woman that would on her birthday fly to NY to be with a man that doesn't care for her, and IS NOT her H, is probably beyond your advice. You would in fact be doing her H a huge favor.

Doesn't sound much like MB advice does it? Well, she isn't building a marriage and the person that could doesn't know about the problem. She ought to file BEFORE they commit to that house.

Final comment and then I will let the flames leap. If she were your friend she would CONSIDER your advice, and do you the courtesy of at least reading what you have offfered. She just wants you as a friend as long as you give her what she wants to hear. Want proof?? Write that letter and tell her how you really feel about what she is doing.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

Lisa, I'm not only a huge sap when it comes to friends...I'm also an ex Wayward Spouse. And from that viewpoint, I think that backing out of her life FOR NOW would not only be easier on you, but it might be just the space she needs to deal with this situation herself. Once I didn't have ANYONE to bounce all my random thoughts (most of which were conflicting from one second to the next)...I had to start arguing with MYSELF. That's when the fog clearing really started. And I respect my friends all the more for getting out of the way of my progress...while still caring from a distance.

I know it's hard....hang in there!

Hey, Lisa! Sorry to hear about this friend and the pain she's in, and the pain she's causing you.

One thing that stands out really clearly for me is that your friend is not acting in consonance with her normal character. That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. This affair is an addiction and it is twisting your friend's thought processes and actions. You're right to be extremely cautious around her.

And please, tell her H. Yes, it means that they will go through years of pain and you probably will too. But... the truth shall set you free.

Lisa, over the two years my life was a mess...I was a terrible spouse, and I was a terrible friend. The wayward frame of mind puts people in a very selfish mode and lying becomes a way of life. It starts with the spouse...and then when the friends are no longer cheerleaders, it starts with them too.

Please know that today I am an excellent spouse and a great friend! I have apologized to everyone, more than once...and bent over backwards to let everyone know how much I appreciate them being there for me when I was at my worst.

We all make mistakes and I consider a good friendship to be another relationship in our lives. It's not a marriage, with the oath given before God and all that...but it's still important. And people do make mistakes. Consider this a phase...and if her choices lead her down the wrong path forever...then you can't be there for her. But if it leads her back at some point...then you can.

Thanks all for your thoughtful and supportive words.

H4F - I know how tough this situation is to both of us having been there, done it and got the t-shirt!!! I very much appreciate your honesty and help in trying to give me something to sort this out. I am like you - I always thought I was a good friend. Funny thing was, during my A, I really didn't keep in touch with people terribly well, as I am an awful liar, and I couldn't see people because I would have to tell them. Therefore, it was easier just not to see people, so I didn't put myself in that place of being flamed. But it really isn't good for me. It's hurting me.

J - thanks for your support. I don't know if I can tell her H. In some ways, I think it is about what is motiviating me as I mentioned earlier. I know why I want to help her and keep away from her. As I say, been there and done it. Don't want her to make the same mess as I did. Thank you.

JL - as ever your words help tremendously. I know her H would be better off without her as she currently is, and I don't know if she has the capactiy to change without him knowing. It's a viscious circle isn't it? When I re-read what you wrote (about her birthday and stuff), it made me so sad, so angry, it hit home so very clearly. That is a terrible thing to do to someone you are supposed to adore. No, she doesn't deserve him on her current self destructive path. She should do him the favour and move on.

I'll keep you all posted about how things go.

Lisa