Well, it has been a little while with my own update. Partly because I have been caught in a paralysis in our relationship. That may have been broken yesterday in terms of knowing the problems we are having in putting this back together. But I am not sure if it is not too late to keep the marriage from falling apart again.

Let me explain.

Since my wife moved home in April, she has increasingly pulled back from me. First it was no SF. Then the affection went. Later, she stopped working with me to plan future events, or do things together. It has been a slow bleed.

As this materialized, I began to get worse. I would go through periods where I couldn’t take the fact that she was pulling back, that she didn’t want my touch, etc. I was becoming increasingly frustrated with her indecision.

And so, within the last two weeks, we have come dangerously close to us just folding up and ending it. To her moving out. My wife has even looked into a lawyer, and into the apartments down the street.

But she is still here. And then she came to me yesterday with a revelation she just had. A revelation that she harbors anger, frustration, pain, etc. from way before we ever met. That this bled into our marriage. That my pulling back from her exacerbated it. That the actions during her affair heaped “insult upon injury,” as she put it. And now, her inability to get past all of this has led her to believe she needs to separate.

Now, before anyone goes off the reservation here. She went on to explain. She believes that we are “killing” each other right now. That there were things we should have resolved before she came back. She says that under our current conditions, she is just pushing me to get angry, constantly provoking me. And she says that isn’t fair to me…I don’t deserve that.

When I told her that it sounded like she was just making excuses so she could separate and divorce, she lit into me. She told me that she was being honest with me. That she contacted someone yesterday, and is now seeking professional help for that anger, resentment, etc from her childhood all the way through to today. That if she separated, and I wanted to divorce, then so be it. But that is not what she is saying. She is saying that she cannot function under the current situation. That she is anxious and upset most of the time. Mostly because I am anxious and upset that she has yet to get back into this marriage or do anything positive to move it forward.

So, I came home later from work and we talked some more. She could see that I was visibly upset. The first part of the next conversation, I really Lbed big time. She immediately jumped up and started screaming, saying that she was being honest, but if I was going to throw things in her face, then the discussion was over. That she thought our talk earlier had been productive.

So, I calmed down, and began to talk. I told her that it would be impossible to separate and me not pursue divorce. That because there had been an affair and everything she did, if she left again…even if it is just to get her head on straight…that I could not function that way. I would wonder if she was with someone.

She said she would move down the street. That this was just an attempt to get back where we were right before she came home…and finish the healing and counseling to be able to do this right. That she has realized that the demons that have trailed her all her life have caused a lot of this, and that she cannot let go of the anger or resentment at anyone or anything…including me. That she needs this professional help in order to help her find a way to do that.

And then I told her again that separation now, because there was an affair, is not possible. Before the affair…sure. It would make sense because of what is happening. But now…no. I couldn’t and wouldn’t function that way. My kids wouldn’t understand. They would just see Mom leaving again, only to come back 6 months later. No! I cant and I wont.

I told her that this would have to be done in the confines of the marriage. She said “Well, where’s the compromise here, if you wont do separation?” I told her separation isn’t compromise, it is the end. Compromise is coming up with a workable plan, schedule, solution, etc that we can both feel safe in while she works thru her personal issues. But separation isn’t one of those options.

So, I have told her what I feel. That I know what we can be. That her revelation on her anger from throughout her life explains a lot of what has happened, including the affair. It explains why she hasn’t made the effort to moving forward since she came home.

But I also want an end to all of this. One way or the other. I told her stay…work on herself…and work on us………….or go and we will divorce. There are no other options.

I believe yesterday was a breakthrough for her in understanding herself and why she has done all of this. She said she wanted her integrity back. That she never lied….and over the last two years, she cant stop lying. She knows the anger and resentment is killing her and her happiness. And she feels she just needs to wrestle wit this alone and give us some air, so that we aren’t constantly at each others throats in a death cycle of being loving and then arguing and then being loving again.

I am interested in what you all think. I am pretty sure there is no OM, and no OM on the horizon. I really do believe her and what she is saying. But I am not sure how to guide us thru that. My needs have not been met. Later on last night, after dinner, we sat on the couch and laughed while watching TV…and I gave her a massage. It was nice. But, she wakes up this morning with me holding her…and she is as tight as a board and breathing with anxiety.

So, what am I to do? I know professional help is needed for her…but who knows when she will actually take care of that, or how long that help will take before we can get moving again. And in the meantime, I am just waiting some more? I doubt I would make it until the first of the year.

I am the BS and I have been thru Plan A and Plan B…and my wife coming home. I know that I thought I couldn’t make it thru those things…but I did. So some may say I can make it thru this. But, really…I do not want to. She came back to me last January because she said she realized what we had. She initially sought help and then stopped. She came home, started off great…and then has done nothing. I am tired and not sure I want to put any more time into this. I do love her and know that this can all work out. But I do not trust that she will do the right things to make that happen.

No more plans for me. I have reached the point where she is at the corner and there are two ways to go. She can go one way or the other…but it is time to go. I am not going to wait another 6 months, year, two years, etc for love, acceptance, affection, SF, etc.

But, I don’t know how to get her to understand that even though she understands the problem now, that her solution ends things forever…that I cannot join her in that. Or how to show her how to work on things, have SF and affection, while at the same time she works on herself (when she says that her feelings toward me are worse than before or during the affair and she has no interest right now in SF with me). With that being said, I am severely leaning toward just having her leave…and push thru the paperwork for divorce.

So, comments and questions are welcome. She hung on in our conversations, trying to get me to not just throw my hands in the air and quit. But she is adamant that until she figures out herself and this problem, there will be nothing for me. And I will not go another month without my needs for affection, SF, intimacy, etc being met.

So, great insight into our situation. But on the precipice of us losing everything. A very dangerous time right now!

In His arms.

Lord I hope I'm dead wrong when I say this but it seems to me that your W MAY indeed be, at the very least, talking to the OM behind your back. Remember that Dr Harley says that marital recovery is not possible if the WS and the OP are still in contact with one another. Her words seem eerily familiar to those she told you when she was living apart and was involved with the OM. Like I said I hope I'm dead wrong about this but I advice you to do some snooping to verify that this is not the case.

Well I agree don't let her move out or force her out.

She's home and your both working hard at keeping things together so keep working.

I think it's great that your wife has discovered that something is not right within herself and is trying to work through it. I think my still WW has many of the same internal unhappieness.

You have in the past told me to forget about time lines. Stay focused on what is working and when the preasure gets to great to move away for a little while and find something not relationship based to do. Have fun.

Remember the good things - empythize, compassion, love and understanding. And of course as long as this month is better than last keep moving with all those baby steps.

Remember your still standing and you wanted this chance so don't give up.

good luck,

TMCM,

I dont believe that she is in contact with OM or a new OM. Too much evidence to the contrary. But as you know, I have no problem snooping...with finding out. I really believe that her discussion yesterday was her way of trying to get back to last February, when she was working with a counselor, we were more affectionate...and things were moving forward. Right now, things only continue to get worse.

GG007: Problem is, for the last 6 months, things have steadily gotten worse. As my wife pointed out, we are in a death cycle. And the bad times in the cycle are increasing, while the good are lessening. Things are not getting better...only worse. Most of that has to do with her doing NOTHING toward the relatioonship for the last 6 months. She says hse has been doing the best she can, considering what she just told me about the anger and resentment. But her best has been nothing to me. And so, I continue to feel worse and act upon that because I want a relationship with her...and still feel trapped outside.

So, I agree with you...or would if things were indeed getting better. But they are not. And my timeline is that I refuse to go much longer with things getting worse.

In His arms.

Mortarman -

Listen to me, here. Your wife just came and was completely open to you about how she's feeling and hurting. And you, you selfish dolt of a man, made it ALL ABOUT YOU.

AND STOP THROWING AROUND THE ULTIMATUMS!!

Okay, enough of a 2x4.

I think, though, that it's important to really listen to what she's saying and not to what you're afraid she's saying. Is she saying she's leaving the marriage? No. Is she saying that she never wants to see you again? No. Is she saying that there's a big big problem? Yes!

Okay. When faced with a big big problem, we work with it. Preferably without getting all red in the face and bug-eyed.

It sounds to me like you two have a difficult issue that you need to negotiate. I DON'T think it's moving out, though. I DO think it's this:

"What's it going to take for your wife to feel safe enough to deal with her fears while remaining in your marriage?"

AND it's this:

"What's it going to take for YOU to feel safe enough to deal with YOUR fears while remaining in your marriage?"

Anger? Nah. I mean, sure. You're both angry. But anger is just the fight-or-flight reflex kicking in, that old survival instinct. It's there because you are being threatened. So you both have to figure out what's causing the threat WHILE you're living with it.

Incredibly, incredibly difficult.

I don't think walking away from the threat is necessarily the answer. I DO think that getting breaks from it is important, though, otherwise you start to get pretty drug out and tired with the whole thing, and that ain't gonna help nobody.

So. You need help. She needs help. You need help together. Your kids could probably use some help, too.

For heaven's sake, go talk to your nearest counselor (how about if you call Cerri instead of Steve?) for some advice.

By the way, if I remember right, you're in Northern VA. I work in Tyson's Corner and live in Bethesda. If your wife wants a sympathetic ear that you can trust as fully pro-marriage, I'd be happy to oblige.

Only you know what's best for you and obviously you have been trying and still want things to work out.

I really don't know what to say. Just remember there is no shame in failing only failing to try. And you have certainly tried very hard.

All the best!

MM-

Your wife is beign honest.

Do NOT give up.

Here's what I see...

She is starting to face reality. She is suffocating.

You are correct too, she can NOT leave. If this marriage is to work, neither of you can give in to this. Marrigae is working together through the difficulties.

Instead of getting defensive and putting up the walls, ask her what she needs to heal. Listen to what she says and then HEAR what she is crying out for.

She is 100% correct that her ISSUES are preventing her from recovery. Look at my story. Did your wife do ANY of the work that I did? NO. She has to go through it and if you really want to get to recovery, you have to start learning again.

POJA about what she needs. Sepparate room perhaps?
Let her know that you want to be part of the process. Tell her that you need to have her show you the way...

email me...

MM,

I don't know your complete story but I do remember parts of it and I think a complete sep right now would be the worst thing to do. I can understand that your W has things she needs to work out and has a healing process to go through as well, and possibly being very close to you is interfering with that process. It's clear that affection, intimacy and SF are pretty important needs for you and she may not be ready to fill those needs just yet. I can see how that bothers you a great deal but ask yourself this question. If you do separate and then divorce how long will those needs go unmet then?

Why not propose an alternate solution to her. I am not sure of your home layout but a MC once suggested to me to try a "cohabitation separation" That would mean sleeping in separate bedrooms and basically living separate lives in the same house. You and she could spend time together watching TV or talking and get comfortable around each other again with no pressure. It would also give you a chance to see if she is indeed doing the things she needs to do. If that is workable and she refuses I would be very suspicious that she wants time alone for "other reasons"

Hope that helps,

B

Let me answer the recent posts, because I believe there is a theme here.

Yes, she is being honest. And she is having trouble dealing with these problems of hers, with me so close and wanting/needing to be with her. I understand this.

Some have suggested a kind of separation within the same household. that wouldnt work on a couple of levels. If we are living "separate lives," then I just want to move on. I had moved on in Plan B...had even started talking to someone new, for those of you that remember my posts from January. Sure my needs arent currently being met. But I kept moving in this because I was moving towards a goal...reconciliation...which my needs would then be met.

It is like being deployed for war with the military. You will live in crap and do the hard work only if you know what the goal is and that everyone is working toward that goal. Change those dynamics, or leave it open ended (no exit strategy?!?! or win strategy?!?!?) and then soldiers have morale problems and quit. This is where I am. No exit strategy...no win strategy...and thus no reason to separate except to end the marriage.

On fulfilling my SF, affection, etc needs and how long that would take....not long. In some ways, the woman I talked to back i nJanuary is still out there, although we havent talked since March. I know her divorce was final in July, and that she is taking it easy for awhile to see what happens with herself. but also thru sources, I found out that she is also waiting to see what happens with me.

Now, before the 2x4s start flying...let me say something...what I am doing or not doing is not influenced by that situation. I am and have been committed to my marriage and my wife. So, dont think that this other gal is pulling me away. I am just trying to say that my situation in the areas of SF, affection, etc would change rapidly once my marriage was over with.

But what I want is SF, affection, etc with my wife. I know she is finally being honest. I know this. But her plans on how to deal with this are unacceptable with me. I cannot pull back with our marriage. Separation in the house or away to me right now is a non-marriage. Almost like everyone is saying it is free to date for awhile. No dice, even if we dont do something stupid like that.

She is trying to find her way...I will agree. but I have put EVERYTHING into this marriage and I will not back up now. Backing up is not an option. If I have to disengage from this marriage now, then I am packing up and moving on. This is the last battle for this marriage, win or lose.

So within that, I dont know what to do. Except for the little bit of LBing, our conversation was good. We got a lot out. But she doesnt know what to do with the fact that I cant pull back from the marriage and let her figure herself out.

Guys and gals...I dont either. I am just about done with missing out on my top 3 needs being met. It has been two years with NONE of them being met. We all have to remember that the love bank works both ways. I am pretty much empty and definitely dont have enough to weather a "separation."

So, I am asking her what we can do short of that...what we can do to meet both of our needs. But I am afraid she cannot meet mine with her dealing with these issues of hers. And I cannot support her anymore unless my needs for affection, SF and intimacy start being met.

A pretty hard impasse here. And I do not have a roadmap around it.

In His arms.

MM,
My first instinct is the same as TMCM's...she's continuing the A on some level, even if emotionally in her mind with no actual contact.

Most of us, when we are in trouble, go to those we love or trust or respect for support or advice. Logically that person is our spouse. So, in cutting your off from her healing process, if that is what it is, she's choosing not to have support from someone (you) she knows she can receive support from. So, I find her "seeking help" to be very suspect.

Plus she sounds exactly like my H the 7 times he left me.

In some ways she is right, being faithful, not being angry, not pushing other's people's button...she does have to figure that out for herself. But, she is a married person and separation is a step away from the marriage, it doesn't always lead to divorce, even with multiples separations, but I do believe that separation and any succeeding separation lessons the likelihood of the marriage recovering.

You already know that, I'm sure. But, you are a person of faith and you need to be sure that your words of divorce are really God's will in your situation, should you separate. He doesn't give the ok for divorce easily...and only for the adultery and resulting hardness of the BS heart. As my counselor always said..."Is it God's will for you to have a hard heart?"

But, I wouldn't fight the separation now, while she is still in the home. I would do as Dobson suggests in LOVE MUST BE TOUGH and open the cage door...and, no more ultimatums unless you are absolutely sure they are the words God is giving you.

Lor,

I agree with what you said. I am not giving ultimatums. I have told her that she is either in, or our. Not sort of in or sort of out in a separation.

Maybe there is the Om in her mind. I am not sure I believe that, but it is possible. She seems to want to engage me, to me not to pull away, so it doesnt seem that her answer is that she wants me to file.

But you hit the nail on the head with God. He will NEVER tell you or me to divorce our spouses, even in adultery. He just permits it.

Unfortunately, when it comes to my wife, her affair, and her not re-engaging me (for whatever the reasons), my heart is hardening towards her. She is going to have to be a big girl, grow up, and maybe do some uncomfortable things (like meeting my needs sometimes) in order to get what she wants. Otherwise, my heart does feel like it is hardening. And the door is closing for her.

In His arms.

This reminds me of the line of work that I'm in - I work with people who have gone through seminar after seminar to change their lives... and nothing has changed.

Your wife will have to reach the place of understanding that as long as she seeks to get her "recovery" while isolated, the problems always come back once she returns to her regularly scheduled life.

She MUST work out her recovery while living in the life situation she plans to live with AFTER she resolves her issues. You can't heal someone emotionally in an artificial environment, any more than you can heal a marriage while being separated. And her therapist should know that if they're any good.

J: you didn't hit him anywhere near hard enough w/ that 2x4. I will do that, but can't now. More later.

Uh-oh. John with the 2x4. How do I know that I am about to be **thwacked** pretty hard?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Mortarman, I've thought and thought and thought about your situation and not been able to find a viable 'solution' for you. Something occurred to me today. Your wife is very much going through the same things I did during our ordeal. I've told you via email that what she's pulling now reeks of false recovery. Her latest sounds just like a conclusion I came to when I couldn't get past my pride and anger to just TRY to reconcile the marriage. I feel that's what your wifes problem is as well...not past issues, but the refusal to deal with the present.

There is one major difference between our situations, however. You. My husband never pushed and never fought. He gave up and withdrew...which wasn't particularly helpful...but we would have been done long before our reconciliation had he had your testosterone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He didn't have the needs and demands of sexual intimacy, nor did he feel such a strong need for resolution. He's a very calm and steady person...and as painful as everything was...he still just didn't need to rush forth and have an end.

I can't help you with that, nor can I advise you about that. You are who you are, and if you honestly can't let this play out another 6 months to a year...then it may very well be done. She's not ready to be where you want her to be. It worked very well for me to be able to work through my pride while I was on my own. I do believe, however, it CAN be done without seperation. She's just trying to get away, right now.

Does your W know there is someone else on the horizon still?

Hey MM. I wanted to focus on this friend of yours a little. You sounded VERY sure that this didn't have anything to do with what you were feeling, but are you REALLY sure?

The reason I ask is because I had recently met someone when my WW came to me about reconciling. I have been put through plenty by my WW for that to be reason enough not to want and try again with her. I was VERY sure also that the other woman I had gotten to know had nothing to do with my resistance to wanting to try and reconcile with my wife. Our relationship was not very serious and had not become physical in any way. I made an appointment with Steve H. to talk with him about my WW and what I should do. I told him about this other woman also and he was all over that. Well by the time he had finished with me I saw very clearly that this other woman was a very BIG part of the reason for my hesitation.

You may be right and this other person has nothing to do with your feelings toward your wife right now, but I thought I would let you know what happened to me just in case it could be influencing you and you don't know it yet. The danger as Steve described it to me is that even though you may not be in love or even very serious about this other person it's planting the thought in your head that you could be happy elsewhere and that life could be good without your family intact. That is a dangerous way to be thinking right now. Good Luck!

MM,

Actually, I can see many options for this situation, none of which you or your W seem to have considered.

So let's take her solution first. You are rightly concerned that she would just go back into another affair with OM or a new OM. A very very valid concern. You could bring your resources to bare on this so that you KNOW if there is OM in the picture. You could even tell her this is the only way you could accept a separation and see what she says.

You could go to the solution you suggested, her staying there, working on the marriage but also working on herself. THe problem there is that the constant drain on your LB while she does NOT meet any of your needs will probably kill the marriage. So I don't think your solution as presently stated will work. Actually, her's has a better chance.

So what are some other ideas. First, I think I would determine IF an affair is going on. Lor's sensitivity is well founded, but I tend to think your W is not, but I know I could be very wrong here. So perhaps it is time to verify.

Here is what I would recommend you consider. THat YOU AND YOUR W go to a counselor, not a marriage counselor, but an IC trained to deal with childhood problems or anger problems. Let's assume her thinking is right. Then while you are there you would like her to talk with him about these things and develop a plan. Would it really help to remain together or would it help to separate while she is in treatement: ASSUMING THAT HE/SHE FEELS YOUR W NEEDS TREATMENT.

Next, you go to a different IC and go through the same exercise.

Then find a really good marriage counselor and do the same exercise and see what they all say. WHat would they recommend to accomplish three major things?

1. Your W gets the help she thinks she needs.

2. Your marriage is preserved.

3. You somehow are taken care as an H should be or at least a little. In another words something has to be done to help you through this. I don't think your W sees you as a human being, but rather as someone who can endure ANY PAIN, IF ONLY YOU WANT TO. She needs to see that you do have a limit.

You want all of these peoples ideas on how to accomplish all three things.

Then if you find someone with a plan that seems to make sense to you, your W, set a time limit for this to lead to getting back to being a married couple TRYING to save your marriage. NOT to get the marriage to where it should be, but at least to where you both are on the same page with the idea of restoration.

Then exercise the plan.

MM, I know some people have gotten the 2x4 out, and since most of them have not been here from when you were overseas and your W was running around and for all that has happened since then, it is reasonable that they feel this way.

But, we are not talking about a few months or even a year of NOT having needs met. We are talking about several years and some serious neglect on her part of you and your children. Frankly, you would have my blessing to pull the plug on this marriage right now. She got the free education from you. She can now divorce you and get half of everything while you could have divorced her and taken everything from her, in the state you live while she was having the affair.

You have saved her a$$ many times and the fact that she even has her children around and a house to live in much less her degrees is due to your forbearence (sp) and strength in attempting to save your marriage.

BUT, I think you and your W should talk about visiting a variety of counselors and seeing if they can offer a plan that will do something for both of you. I understand why you don't like her plan. All of her plans have led to intense pain and suffering on your part, and NO REWARD OF ANY KIND for your efforts and suffering.

IF she can be helped and her issues addressed, you MIGHT have the woman you always felt you married, but there are too many IF's for you to take her word.

I would also strongly suggest that if she does find a counselor and you are involved in the plan that she sign a release that allows you access to the counselor and information about her. THat way you can determine if progress is being made or it is time to pull the plug. I know it sounds controlling but she must do something to help you be reassured that she is really trying and not just taking you for another ride.

I think you should talk with her tonight about this, and make it clear that she needs to throw you a bone in this somehow, or I do agree with you, it should be over.

I have not often said this to anyone, but these are my feelings. THere are many shades of ways to deal with this, but it must include a component that keeps you in the loop. She needs to stretch her mind, and give somewhere for this to work.

Her plan as currently structured means she leaves all child care to you again, she leaves all bills for house to you again, she leaves you period to "see" if she can find it in her heart to be kind to a man that has done little else but show her mercy and she doesn't even feel the need to help you help her.

I feel like getting on a plane to your part of the country and having a long hard talk with her myself.

MM, if you get nothing else out of this post, realize that there are other ways to handle this other than divorce or her just leaving you in the lurch again.

God Bless you and your family,

JL

MM, I've read your threads - but don't know whether or not I've ever posted to you!

You've always gotten such good advice and positive results that there's never anything for me to add until now.

I think you should consider counseling with Steve Harley. It's expensive, but very well worth it from the emotional pain he can save you and your wife from when you follow his recovery plan.

You'll be able to sort out the issues and make the best decision for yourselves with his help.

H and I are in a good recovery as a result of what we learned from MB coaching. It's much more than what you'll find on this website, MB books & fellow posters! All of which is great support, but doesn't hold a candle to the expertise you'll find with SH! Blessings, CSue

MM, It is sooo hard to go so long without EN's being met. AT some point it's burnout time, nothing left to give...you are only human, you want so badly to feel loved and love back without having to fight so darn hard for it!
But if we've learned anything here is if something is worth fighting for, we have to do the work(which you know how to do, obviously). You have reached deep inside and pulled out the last drops of love before, do it again, there is some still left.
Sift through the wonderful advice given here,(i don't have it, just encouragement) and keep trying. I don't think you are really ready to give in yet.
Please don't forget to still do nice things for you! Take care of yourself through all of this! Don't allow this to wear you down completely!
I know how this other person may affect the situation...I was just there...and it did get my mind off WH, it felt wonderful, it made me feel like life can go on without WH, BUT, then the R really didn't go anywhere after it got P and you know what...I'm back to realizing that I still do want my M! I wouldn't introduce anyone to my kids for a VERY long while anyways, so it would be very hard to carry on a 2nd life....LOL, see the irony here!
ANyways, I digress...just want to send you a hug and good thoughts...and a question...do you ever feel pressure to get this right because so many people here seem to follow your story and seek your advice? I hope not....do this for you and your family, not us! You know, I will always admire your strength, focus, common sense and your ability to reach out to others selflessly...no matter what happens. You will always be considered a success story here...and remember that if you have done your very best you have succeeded in what you set out to do... and that was to do everything possible so that in the end, you have no regrets....
Are you there yet? Probably not...
Hang in there MM!