</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And my opinion is that she doesnt WANT to see the truth, because with the truth comes guilt, pain and hard work. Not things she really likes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another DJ - and your post is loaded with them, including many you said directly to her. And you are educating her. What happened to your committment to stop doing that? And, I see you making heroic efforts for her - why? What are you getting back? That is what is causing your resentment. Your problem is that you are still in Plan A, and NO ONE can do that indefinitely. You are suffering from "giver snap". Time to negotiate for EVERYTHING. But that is completely tangential to my main point about that quote, which is this:

Do you have any idea how badly she has damaged herself through her own actions? Her spirit, her very soul? Do you understand how broken she really is, that she can say what she says?

My wife is a practicing Christian, grew up on foreign mission fields, born again at age 5, rededicated and baptized at age 14, who has a personal relationship with Jesus, and in fact it was Jesus who finally convinced her to come clean with me and end the affair. The day my wife confesseed her affair to me, she told me: “We have a good marriage. It wasn’t about you, it wasn’t about him and it wasn’t about sex.” Those statements seemed ludicrous to me. I didn’t understand how she could really believe what she had just said.

Today, they seem ludicrous to her. But for many MONTHS after DDay, they did not. When you twist yourself that badly, it takes time to unwind, and the unwinding is exceedingly painful. When your wife sees the truth, it will hurt her more than you are hurting. If you don't believe me - would you trade places with her? You wouldn't, would you?...Because you can't even imagine what it would be like to be that spiritually damaged, can you? But if you could switch places, so you could avoiding the pain you have gone through so far, and will continue to feel for some time, and in addition, have the "pleasure" of the affair relationship, it would not be worth it, would it? Not if you had to give up your relationship with Christ, your integrity, your dreams, not to mention hurt your children and your spouse, however bad she might be. In fact, the idea is laughable, isn't it? It would be WAY too high a price to pay. Death would be better than what your wife has gone through/is going through right now, and eternal death may be the result. (OK, maybe not, but I am not going to get in to whether one can lose their salvation or not - just ignore the last phrase).

And, what would be the worst part? The hardest to face? What you have done to your children, right? Nope - what you have done to your spouse and your God. Those are the things she can't face yet. Because they are the most painful. Remember when she minimized what the children were going through? She sees that now. The spouse part, the God part, those will take time.

What your wife needs now is to be gently coaxed out of the hell-hole she has dug herself into. You need to be Christ's representative to her - calling gently, but never demanding - like how God treats us. She has opened the door of her hell-hole, but she really hasn't come out yet. Show her that it is safe out there with you. Consider yourself divorced if need be, and start back at the lowest levels of intimacy, like back when you were dating. (Did you have sex before marriage? If so, re-set your thinking, and go through a new courtship done right. Don't even THINK about sex with her until she is ready to be married again.)

This whole thing about her being emotionally and spiritually twisted may be a DJ about her on my part, but I know she needs safety first from you. No demands, no AO's, no DJ's!!!!! Don't provide for her little needs as her husband, if you can't do it without AO's. Avoiding the AO's is much, much more important than getting Chinese for dinner. Avoiding DJ's is more important than helping her get the kids off to school. Somewhere inside her she is so guilty that she doesn't WANT you to succeed in coaxing her out, because she would have to face her demons, and because mercy is UNFAIR (according to Satan). Don't let that part of her defeat you. Keep that other part, the part that recognizes the truth, talking to you. Make yourself safe for her.

Don't do it for her, either, because she does not yet appreciate it. Do it for yourself and for God and for your kids.

<small>[ November 14, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

MM:

Holy Cow.

I've been all over the place in trying 2 come up with a reply 2 post 2 this thread, which I only just read 2day.

Why? Because the last times I've posted 2 you, I felt pretty ignored. Kind of like Mrs MM sounds like she feels - only we're hearing "her account" 2nd hand, and that's of little use.

For2nately for me, some amazing replies have come down the pike. At least now I know why I can't finish framing that 5000 sq ft house I'm building - there's not a 2x4 in sight! (I'm not really framing a house...)

There have been so many great, very, very insightful replies 2 you, MM. I won't repeat their points. I support the bulk of them 100%.

How about changing the subject of your posts? No, I don't mean something other than recovery. I mean stop talking about, speculating about, getting feedback about the DAMNED DRAMA you spend so many pages spelling out 2 us in such gory detail. So little of it is *directly* related 2 YOU and how YOU are doing. ALL of it is related 2 what you THINK your W is thinking and doing, played out in page after page after page of that DAMNED DRAMA.

Face it, MM, you're bashing your FWW. If you read this far, would you be willing 2 try an experiment for ol' 2long? ...good.

Here you go: From now on, post only about what's going on in your mind about YOU, how YOU are doing, what you believe in (if you like). Mainly, what I'm after here is stuff about reflecting YOU are doing about YOUR contribution 2 your W's dissatisfaction with your M.

I see so much of your lack of progress since April or so in my own sitch, which I KNOW was due 2 my own pig-headedness, which is pretty mild compared 2 yours (sorry for the DJ). And my W never left. I, 2, have believed that if my W were 2 leave now for even a trial separation, that it would hurt our recovery more than help it. But I have also had 2 realize that it's ME just as much, if not more, at "fault" (the wrong word, but you know what I mean) for our stalemates as her being so recently out of the fog. I'm doing inner soul-searching now like never before, even since D-day, because I KNOW that it's the only thing that's going 2 really keep us on track for a better M.

Now, I've said more than I promised I would again about my speculation of what my W may or may not be thinking or doing. No more. You need 2 do that 2.

Tell us about MM. What can we do 2 help YOU. Let your W help herself (and I do believe she made a giant step forward when she was honest with you - you just reacted again, instead of responding). Your problems are yours. Own them. Address them. Forget about hers, and particularlly forget about your PERCEPTION of HER thinking. Assume your assumptions are wrong.

...and get above that DAMNED DRAMA.

♥2long

Wow, John & J.L. Can I frame what you just wrote?

In these situations...and especially after they have lingered on and on and on...we tend to grip with all our might to THE answer...THE solution..THE decision. Our focus gets narrowed then, because truth be told we never really know what lies ahead. But I understand the reasoning...the floundering is painful and the lack of resolution is MADDENING. After a while we say, that's that...I'm doing X&Y and if that doesn't work it's Z...and that's my final answer. I say "we" because that thought process is much the same for the WS.

The truth is there are many possible outcomes to your situation. Many things could come up out of the blue that you didn't expect. No one knows the future. But you've wrapped your mind around your solution and you've got it gripped...no if's and's or butt's. It's a protection mechanism. Loosen the grip...widen your focus. I'm not saying you should allow her to move or should give her the impression there MIGHT be an open door to her again...I'm just saying that IN YOUR MIND you might take a longer look at the reality of future possibilities.

I've got a great book on stress that I'm bound and determined to post some quotes off of. I think it applies to so many situations on this board. I'll make an extra effort to get that accomplished this weekend. In the meantime...hang in there MM.

Mr.mortar

How are you doing??

I have started several times too post to you...and each time am not sure what I want to say..

Each post I attempt takes a different path...and none have felt right...
not that that is a reflection of your situation...but a reflection of my empty headedness...
if God decides to thump me with the wisdom wand..I will let you know.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I pray you are well..
you and your family are in my prayers...

ARK

MM,

Sorry you are in so much pain. You are in my prayers.

I was just wondering if your W has ever had IC? I'm not a psychiatrist, but it sounds like she's depressed. That could affect her desire for SF.

At the risk of sounding like a pill pusher, I just wanted to suggest that meds might really help at a time like this, especially if her anxiety is making her sick enough to stay in bed all day!

You two have been through a lot, and it's understandable that you feel defeated. It sounds like you both keep going back and forth with your feelings.

I am the WS in my M, and I understand your wife's wanting to take a "time out," which I know is unacceptable to the BS - not only the BS's on this board, but to my own BS as well.

My own DDay was 15 months ago, and my H and I have been working really hard on our M, but we also have been getting more and more burned out, and also more angry at times. One step forward, two steps back.

I feel like your W does sometimes - that I just want to separate and get away from the disappointment and fighting for a while to be able to think, but my H says the same thing you do. If I leave, it's over.

I don't want to contact OM, and I don't want to be with OM. Sometimes I think a separation might help my H and I see if we really want to be together.

I guess what I'm wondering is if it is possible that your W could be considering a "time out," but not really want to end the M, or see the OM.

To BS's, that might sound like "trying to find herself," which is a touchy subject, but it is hard to think clearly while being in such an emotional state all the time, overwhelmed by confusion, anger, and anxiety. I know it's hard for the BS, too.

Honestly, I can see both sides of the issue, and I don't profess to know what the answer is. I just pray that whatever is best for you and your family is what happens. God bless.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Well, thanks for the post. I just spent 40 mintues typing a response, and then my computer went down before I could post it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Typical for the life I am leading right now...nothing but frustration!

JL: You are right...it is me! But we discussed this back in January. I am not built this way. As a matter of fact, it has taken everything I have to do what I have...because this is not my way. Someone tell me they hate me, that they dont want to be with me...someone betray me, hurting me, herself and my kids...believe me, this isnt what Mortarman would do. At the worst, I would make it my mission in life to make sure they got what they "deserved." At the best, I would just walk away...not looking back EVER!

But I overcame all of that, due to my Lord, and my love for my wife and kids. But unfortunately, my heart is hardening. And even all of that now is not enough to keep me from pulling away.

You're right...it will be protecting myself. I admit this. But, my worst enemy could not have done to me what she has done, and what she is about to do. If my worst enemy would do this, dont you think I should protect myself? Of course. And after that enemy has stopped, and then reached out their hand asking for forgiveness, I know I am supposed to give it. But would I just forgive, or would I allow them back into my life, with the keys to everything? No, I would not!

And thus, my wife has done far worse than anyone ever has or will, to me. And to her, and my kids. I have given her everything, a chance at getting her life back (but even better)...with no apology even. And she has taken that, and has thrown it back in my face due to her making no effort toward recovery or seeing the truth. And I am supposed to continue in this? Or, if she ends this for good (divorce), I am supposed to let her back in months...years...later, when she really does pull her head out? I am afraid that is not in me. I have given my best for her, for God and for my kids. It is all I have. If it isnt good enough now, unfortunately, it will be unavailable later.

You're right. All of this may be about me. God may be using this to help me grow. I have already grown. But, I am not being fed...not in awhile. I am hungry and tired. I am hardening. I have prayed and asked for His wisdom in this, to show me the way. But so far, the way has been to sit still and accept the abuse of my wife.

Remember what I told you about God telling me in Bosnia. He told me to 1. forget about my wife, 2. get back to my first love (Him), and 3. die for my wife. JL, I feel like I have died for her. And the last nails in that coffin will be put in with the signing of the paperwork.

I do not want to hang around another 6 months while she "maybe" works things out, only to find at the end of the six months that everything I did for her and us, meant nothing. I do not have it in me anymore.

There is a reason in my life, that once I dated someone and we broke up, that we NEVER got back together again...not even once. Sure, I had the opportunities. I had a few phonecalls from ex's, asking to meet. But there was no way possible.

Since I am married to my wife, I have given everything to her and for her. But, should she no longer be my wife, then I will owe her nothing...and be obligated to nothing. She will be nobody in my life, save for being the mother of my children.

While I love her immensely, and probably always will, I have not gone thru all of this for her. She hasnt, and doesnt deserve what I have done! I have done this for me, for God...and to a lesser extent, for my kids. I have done this for me because I made a commitment to myself, to God, to my wife, to my future kids...to love, honor and cherish...for better or worse. But she takes the marriage away, then those vows, that commitment, no longer exist. And without that commitment, no matter how much I love her...she has no chance with me! She neither deserves it, nor am I capable of giving it.

John: I know my posts are loaded with DJs. Most of them havent been said to my wife...it has just been me venting here. But even the DJs I have said to my wife...well, I am reaching the point where I just dont care. I am bankrupt in the love bank. I believe you are right in what you said abotu my wife. But that doesnt change what I just said to JL. That I do still love her...that she deserves nothin I have done, nor any part of me. That my commitment to my vows, my God and my children has made it possible for her to return. But, that commitment is waning, as my heart hardens and I begin to want the "out" God has given to me.

I have tried to avoid DJs. But I really have found it impossible to do now. Well, not impossible. I have now gone to a sort of Plan B silence. She asks questions, I respectfully answer them. Or if she asks me to do something, I do. But, I no longer am engaging in conversation with her, as of last week. I am no longer massaging her feet when she comes home from work, or meeting any other need of hers. And because of that, I have actually felt my Taker calm down. Sure, I am still not getting my needs met. But I am also not writing any "checks" either, out of my love bank. So, I have just gone silent.

What will that do to the situation. Well, I do know it has and will calm things down. Her and my anxiety levels will go down. But I also believe that it will just lead to months of stalemate, just "existing" with each other until one of us tires of it, or some guy comes along that makes her want to move forward with divorce because he wants her needs met. I dont know, I would be interested on what anyone thinks about that.

2Long: My old friend! Yes, you are right. I need to focus on me. I think you should have noticed on what I posted above, that I am trying to do that. How am I doing, what am I feeling? Well, I think it is obvious. How have I contributed to her dissatisfaction? I have written about my errors and sins ad nauseum on here, especially the ones that led up to the A. But now, I dont know. I have shown her many changes. I have committed wholeheartedly to her and the marriage. I have tried to meet every need. Have I been perfect? No. But, except for lately, for the first 5 months she was home, I stayed away from LBing. I did a very good job. And then to find out that my best efforts make her feel WORSE about me! 2Long, I really dont know how I could have done any better.

I am trying to find my way thru this. I know, especially now, that I cannot eduacate or control my wife. She will do what she will do. But it is me now, having given my best, who feels like moving on. To get the best given to me also. I am increasingly feeling that I will not get that with my wife again. She did for so long. She seems incapable now. So, I really want now to move on with my life, with or without her. Many decisions I would make with her together, I wouldnt make apart. And I am about to retire from the military, we need a new house, etc...and I need her help in this (POJA) if we are together. But my house, career choices, etc will be MUCH different if we were to divorce. And many of these decisions I MUST make shortly. I no longer have the ability to wait. If I make decisions on my own, and go with what we both would want...and she still leaves...then I am stuck single in a life that I dont want if we are divorced. If I chose the way I would go if we are divorced, and she pulls her head out...then she is stuck in a life that she wont want, and probably she will demand I change the job, house location, etc.

I am at a crossroads, as the title says. I have three choices...sit still, go left, or go right. My decision is based on what her and I are doing. I can no longer sit still. And whatever choice I make, if she does the opposite, then I will have chosen incorrectly.

That is why I told JL above that if I go left, the way I would if I was single, I will burn the bridge behind me. Because I know if she tried to come back later, she will want us to turn around and go the direction (right) that I would have chosen if we were together. And I wont be able to do that then. I will not be able to give up my new life for her...a person who is no longer my wife. By burning the bridge, I can move forward with confidence, knowing there is only one way now...forward!

AMM: I agree!

H4F: You are right. And my focus is still wide. But I also know, at least with me, that certain decisions in life cause us to take the narrow road. That we cant take it back. And once the ink dries on divorce papers, that is that. Up until that point, all things are possible with my wife and I. But, the time has come to move forward, one way or another. I am not going to sit still anymore, even if that means losing everything.

I very much appreciate everyone here. These boards are for all of us. I have loved helping others. And as you can see, I have needed you also.

I am struggling thru this latest development. As I said to some in Plan B right now, "wait until you get to recovery...it is much harder." And this is so true. I continue to pray for strength and wisdom.

I have not given up so much as I have now put this entirely in God's hands, and put the responsibility on my wife's shoulders.

We will see what happens. Please continue to post, as this is and has been helping me more than you know.

In His arms.

Rose,

Yes, she has been in counseling before. For depression when she was 16, and several times over our marriage. But not during or since the A. She has gone to MC, but has made n oreal effort during MC.

She has used a lot of medication over the past two years to overcome her anxiety. it has worked at time. Right now, she is no longer on anything...and it is doubtful I could get her on anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess what I'm wondering is if it is possible that your W could be considering a "time out," but not really want to end the M, or see the OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. Absolutely. I believe this may be true, actually. But our fighting isnt really fighting. It is me trying to have a relationship with her, and her not wanting to do anything because she doesnt feel it. I really have tried to meet all her needs, to go way beyond halfway in this. So, her being anxious isnt because I am doing anything necessarily wrong. It is that she feels she cant give me what she used to...give me what I need.

Thank you for your prayers, and your insight as a FWS. It is very helpful. I am just not sure I have it in me to go the separation route, even if it is true that she needs the time to just be quiet, and sort thru things.

In His arms.

Mortarman -- Don't have anything to add, except to say that my prayers are with you.

I read the posters like John & JL, and they seem right. And I read you, and you have so much self-knowledge, and you seem right. And Rose seems right. Then I think you can't all be right -- and that's right too!

Awful situation -- we'll leave it in His hands.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

I also am against separation because of the distinct possibility that the BS will one day wake up and say to him/herself 'Hey I like my life better without him/her. I'm getting divorced' when lo and behold that is the same day the WS wakes up and says to him/herself 'What a fool I've been, I do love my BS and I miss him/her terribly. I'm going to rebuild my marriage'.

Hope, like trust, is very hard to get back once it leaves your heart.

MM:

"I have not given up so much as I have now put this entirely in God's hands, and put the responsibility on my wife's shoulders."

I agree with your putting your sitch in God's hands (even though I'm not religious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), but I don't agree with putting responsibility on your W's shoulders. At least, not YOU putting responsibility on her shoulders. That's for her God and her 2 decide/learn what's appropriate. Again, worry about you, not her. Take responsibility entirely for your behavior. I think if you reconsider some of the suggestions you got regarding the gal you were seeing before your W decided 2 come home, you'd see what I think I'm after here. Just like it's hard for you 2 see what having this other gal "waiting in the wings" (however miniscule those wings might really be), it may be that your vents 2 us and your DJs 2 her are outward expressions of the overall "tone" you bring 2 your interactions with her. Your body language, your "expectations" (have you ever *felt* someone's expectations, even when nobody has said anything? I sure have!), and how they're affecting HER. Now, they may not be intentional on YOUR part, and believe me I know they're probably misinterpreted or blown out of proportion on HER part... ...but that's the na2re of miscommunication. And if you're not even having conversations with her when you're 2gether, the assmptions you're both making about what the other is thinking are going 2 be all over the planet. I know, I lived that kind of drama for far 2long. I still have a tendency, but I'm getting better.

I think I've grown, 2. I know I have a lot of growing yet 2 do. And that's another point. Whether our M's are saved or not, the growing must continue. No alternatives.

I'd still like 2 hear about YOU, not her so much anymore... ...unless you can suggest that she participate on the boards, 2. It would be better, though, if she'd get counseling.

-ol' 2long

MM,

I think you are slightly missing what I am saying. So let me start by quoting you </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That is why I told JL above that if I go left, the way I would if I was single, I will burn the bridge behind me. Because I know if she tried to come back later, she will want us to turn around and go the direction (right) that I would have chosen if we were together. And I wont be able to do that then. I will not be able to give up my new life for her...a person who is no longer my wife. By burning the bridge, I can move forward with confidence, knowing there is only one way now...forward!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, my point is leave your heart open as you make decisions. If she decides to come back, it will have to be TO YOU and your life. She will have to make YOU happy to have her in YOUR life again. I am not saying that you will abuse this or force her to live other than she chooses. I am saying if she decides to come back it will be to YOUR life.

Now let us speculate that she comes back to YOUR life, and you are both very happy and you regain your trust in her, THEN you might consider living in a different fashion or place than you have chosen. But, my comment is to leave your heart OPEN to her coming to you, and committing to you.

You are putting too many road blocks up and there is no need. It may be that she will NEVER want to come back,so what was the use of hardening you heart?? It may be that she will only come back under HER terms, and you will not need to harden your heart because you have decided that enough is enough. BUT what if she comes back,and what she wants is to be with you, the children, and in YOUR life, THEN a hardened heart will hurt you and her.

I see NO tactical or strategic advantage to having a hardened heart, and neither does your lord. I am NOT saying keep giving her everything she wants or anything at all, but I am saying keep your heart open, keep it loving, and still do what you have to do.

We all have or will lose loved ones in our life, either through death or circumstances such as yours. Griefing is good, a loving heart is better, and a hard heart based on a lose will poison you and your future.

MM, relax, love her, enjoy her while she is there, and if she wants to leave, let her leave with love. Then move on with your life. Yes, you have been hurt, but I KNOW you have the strength to have a loving heart, and open heart and STILL do what is necessary. In this case LET HER GO, if that is what she wants. She will have to come back to YOU in YOUR situation if she ever wants to enter your heart again. SHe will have much to prove and demonstrate, and most importantly she will have had to grow and accept ALOT for her to do this.

So MM, what you are seeing is one of the natural outcomes of this marriage. It is not a cause for a hard heart. It should be a cause for a giving, accepting, loving heart. You will transistion into your new life much easier, IF you don't have to fight yourself.

Please think about this. What I am suggesting is a POWERFUL thing, and would be the best for you and your children, no matter what your W decides to do.

God Bless,

JL

PS: The military equivalent of what I am saying is the Marshall plan. Most people don't realize that it was unique in the annuals of history and has led to the best outcome. Consider how WWI ended and how effective the hard hearts were in winning the "war to end all wars". I am asking you for a Marshall plan sort of approach.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Maybe it is not so much a hardening of MM's heart as much of his losing all hope for her to want to be his W.

Coffeeman,

I do see he is losing hope. But, I think if anyone could understand what I am trying to say it would be you. Perhaps you can phrase it better to MM. But, it seems to me that having an open heart, and yes even a loving heart would be easier on him, no matter what happens with his W. Yours eventually came around via a lot of counseling and by that time you had moved on.

I don't know but I suspect that you hold no hatred of her now, if you ever did, but that door is closed.

I am not telling MM to keep the door open indefinitely, but let life close it if that happens. Coffeeman, yours closed when you met someone who filled your life and you wanted and did marry. That I think is how it should be with MM.

Whether he has hope or not, his W MAY get it together if they separate and want to make things right. I think he would be foolish to not allow that possibility to exist until life finds a way to close the door.

What do you think?

JL

Well, did it again. Responded to Coffeeman and JL...and jsut as I posted, I lost everything. like my frustration level needs to get any higher. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Coffeman may have a point there. But let me elaborate.

JL: I hear what you are saying, and you are right. IF....IF...IF my wife, after divorce, could show me (and I hadnt met someone else) that her head had left where it is right now, and that she was willing to be the wife she should be, then yes, I would probably take her back.

But there is a HUGE problem. And this problem is the reason why I say it would be impossible after divorce.

Once divorce happens, then my wife is a non-entity, save for the kids and kid issues. I will want to have nothing to do with her, especially one-on-one. I will begin to move on with my life. Now, let's say I still havent met someone. And she does pull her head out. How am I gonna know that?

You see, unless I KNOW that this has happened and she is committed to me, then I wouldnt even consider dating/remarrying her.

But, if I am having NC with her, except for the kids, then how in the world would she be able to show and prove to me that THIS TIME, she actually has regained herself?

Now, I can hear it...that I will have to give her the time. But maybe she is playing games. Maybe she is just lonely. Whatever. Maybe she hasnt pulled her head out, but is just saying the right things. Well, I will be divorced from her. I will not want to expend one ounce of love or energy on a woman like she has been the last two years. So, how will I know for sure that she isnt that woman anymore, that she is the woman I married and love? Of course, she will need to show me. But how can she show me when I will not allow her to abuse me again? A very BIG Catch 22.

You se, I can see her coming to me and saying "Can we talk?" And I will know that she wants to talk about us. About a possible future again. Well, if I allow that talk to happen, if I allow some conversations, dating, etc to happen, and I dont KNOW that she actually means all of this, then I have allowed her to possibly abuse me again. And I swear to anyone listening...once divorced, she will NEVER abuse me again! I cannot, and will not, allow it.

So, that is why I say it is impossible, that the bar for her reurn this next time will be higher, so high that it is literally impossible for her to jump it. She will have to find a way to make me KNOW that she is for real, and do so through NC. Because until I know it isnt this selfish woman that she is now, I cannot allow her to take that chance with my heart again. Not possible.

So, help me here. How is it possible for her to show me, but at the same time I protect myself and not allow the abuser back in? I do not see how that is possible.

On hardening my heart, it does say God hates divorce, but will permit a BS to divorce their WS due to the hardness in their heart. So, the grounds for divorce isnt just adultery, it is also a hardness in the BS's heart. So, until I have my divroce, my heart will not be hard to my wife. But, if I have divorced, you can count on the fact that my heart has hardened to her. Otherwise, I would have never gotten the divorce.

I am not trying to be argumentative in any of this. I am truly confused right now and appreciate your help. I am just not sure it is possible for her to do this, once divorce happens.

I am her husband until divorce. We are just parents once the divorce is final. To get back to being one flesh again, the impossible has to happen.

In His arms.

Dear MM:

I've been following your story all along and let me just say:

YOU'RE THINKING TOO MUCH!

IF you divorce and are having nothing to do with your wife and you start dating or you don't start dating, I think your heart will heal.

With a healed heart I think your outlook on your W will take on a different view. She won't be hurting you as much and it will be harder for her to hurt you if she isn't around as much. Thus, her talks with you won't be as painful as they are now. And you might be able to see her in a different light if she isn't around all the time.

You need your glasses prescription changed - you are having trouble seeing what's up close - you need to focus on the distance. Once you do that it will be easier to see her and a future.

Of course, these are all BIG if's. They might not happen.
DB

MM,

Permit me to rephrase "dazed blonds" very good statement, quoting from a football coach who responded to me "but coach I thought you said..."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't think boy, you'll weaken the club. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The real point of my response is you are posing your problem as a binary problem. I know you are being honest in your feelings and your expected feelings, but you are casting your decision making in a binary way: yes/no, she loves me/she loves me not, she is my wife therefore worthy of consideration/ she is NOT my wife therefore NOT worthy of my consideration.

Let me address a few of your comments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, help me here. How is it possible for her to show me, but at the same time I protect myself and not allow the abuser back in? I do not see how that is possible.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! MM here you have posed the essence of your faith. You do NOT need to protect yourself, that is where you are failing. She has done all she can do and YOU are still standing, you are even standing for your marriage. You don't need to protect yourself from her. THat is why I am yacking at you about the hard heart. YOu will be hurt, you will be in pain, when the marriage ends (if it comes to that), but you will be stronger, your faith will be stronger, you will have a much better sense of what a good marriage and relationship is, you will understand your needs better and those of any woman in your life.

With that knowledge how can she hurt you? She will either meet your needs or she will not, she will try or she won't, and if she does try that does not mean that you will fall in love with her and want her for a wife. BUT, it is possible that she may learn what you have learned, but it may take something more dramatic for her to see it. What if she learns as you have and now knows who to meet your needs and further wants to? You miss out.

MM, the resolution to the quandry is that you do not need protecting from her. You do NOT have to harden your heart or go to no contact with her. You are not trying to change her or woo her, or make her fall in love with you. As you say, she would NOT be your W. She is just another human being that happened to have your children and who has made some bad decisions. AND THEY HURT YOU. But, don't forget they hurt your children and her. Do you expect your children to write her off? Of course you don't.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On hardening my heart, it does say God hates divorce, but will permit a BS to divorce their WS due to the hardness in their heart. So, the grounds for divorce isnt just adultery, it is also a hardness in the BS's heart. So, until I have my divroce, my heart will not be hard to my wife. But, if I have divorced, you can count on the fact that my heart has hardened to her. Otherwise, I would have never gotten the divorce.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No need for the hard heart. If she never comes around then you can have an open and loving heart and it will make no difference. If she does come around then it might make a positive difference to YOU. MM, you are missing something about forgiveness, it doesn't mean you have to take her back. It doesn't mean you have forgotten, but it does mean your heart is NOT hard. That life is full of chances and she may be part of them.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not trying to be argumentative in any of this. I am truly confused right now and appreciate your help. I am just not sure it is possible for her to do this, once divorce happens.

I am her husband until divorce. We are just parents once the divorce is final. To get back to being one flesh again, the impossible has to happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! the impossible to YOUR mind. I keep reminding of your religion becuase within it "all things are possible". You don't have to help or hinder the process, I am just saying that you should and could be open to the process. You are right you are just parents, but you do have a history, some parts good, and some parts bad.

MM, please understand, when I say don't harden your heart, don't close her out. I am not doing this for HER benefit but for YOURS. Your hard heart will make future relationships with or without your W very difficult. It will make you a different father than you should be. It will show through and teach your children lessons you don't want them to learn. Even with an open and loving heart, and even if she decides to try, that does NOT mean you should take her back. It means you consider it. Would it be best for me? CAn I trust her enough? Will it be in her best interests? How about the children?

All of these questions. MM I do not know your future, but I do know that life has an interesting way of presenting us with choices and options. Don't reduce your options. You will change and so will she. Will it be for the better? Could it bring you together? Will you find someone far better to be your spouse and the mother of your children when you have them? I do not know. I do know life has a funny way of turning tables and involving people in our lives that one would never guess.

So, consider that this issues is NOT a yes/no issue. It is a yes/no/definitely maybe sort of thing, and it is the "definite maybe's" in life that make it an adventure.

Interestingly, I am NOT even suggesting that you stay "friends" with your W. Frankly, I believe in the short run that would be harder to do, than NOT hardening your heart. Just give life a chance MM, that is all I am asking. You will get the answers to all of your questions in due time. So don't draw any lines in the sand right now. Don't burn bridges right now. Just forgive, and move on with your life, but allow life to double back and offer you another option. When/if it does THEN make your decision.

So don't keep her out, because she will want to be out anyway. Don't shut her out, because unless things change she will shut herself out. Don't be hard, because becoming happy and recovering from this will be hard enough. Simply, be a good and generous man to her, to anyone else in your life, and most of all to yourself.

Nothing may ever come of this, but NOT having a hard heart will protect you just as much AND it will allow you to enjoy your life much better.

I am saying all of this for YOU, not her.

God Bless,

JL

MM: There have been a lot of times when I have prayed about my options, telling God "I want option A, not option B. But, Your will be done." There have been a BUNCH of times when I got option C.

I think that is part of what JL is saying. God is awesome. Don't try to put Him in a box.

MM, I am so new at this that I am not in a position to give advice to you. But, I will pray for you.