<small>[ November 28, 2003, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

Somehow I think this gal isn't convinced because "no one was hurt".

I found myself thinking that if my W hadn't discovered the A she would be living a "normal" life thinking that I was still her "hero". All she would have to try to figure out was why I was this mass of non-functioning humanity unable to share with her the reason why I had become so depressed. Could I blame it on my thyroid gland? I'm the epitome of health-'Mr workout". Somehow I don't think she'd buy that story.

If you are so attached to this OM I do not see how you can just turn away and say "no one was hurt". If you are not then you are living or have lived two lies not just one.

The OW in my life ended our A. Her H never found out about me or the other A's she had. I saw the devastation in her when she ended it with me. She told me how devastated she was when she found out the guy before me had "cheated" on her(now how does that happen when you are having affair?) She said at the beginning that in the end I would end up "empty and devastated".

Sarie perhaps you are her. She said that when our A ended she was going to "go it alone" , I could not I still need a C this board and more. She snuggled right up to her h and moved on with her life. It all sounds very cold and dispassionete(sp).

Are you here for help or are you here to announce your 10 years of deceit? There are many willing to help but you have to want it. You seem bitter that there are those who give of there time to help others in their recovery and in doing so they help in their own recovery.

There is a man in your bed who doesn't know you. The poor SOB married a lie.
H

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong> I have been mulling this thing over for awhile, I am not sure, but I have a fair amount of doubt that sarie is real, or her story real...it feels more like a taunt...and is logically inconsistent. However, if she is real, hopefully she will see the light. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This crossed my mind as well.

But, she is very consistant with some of the people described in Scott Peck's "People Of The Lie"...

Have you read it?

How are YOU doing, by the way?

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, not aware of that book, will check it out. I know (and after so much time here in spades) there are lots of messed up people out there, but what comes through saries post is a lot of very specific (to this board) button pushing...."she" does not act like someone with real remorse, or love for someone....Of course she could just be a card-carrying sociopat....but then the difference between her as a sociopath (and truthful)...or a phoney is moot anyways.

How am I doing? Hmmm.... Depends on what capacity...assuming you mean in regard to emotional well-being relative to this time in my life.....so so, slowly getting better, have a lot of difficulty with guilt, and feeling like tainted goods...but my rational side does a good job of getting past that, understanding that my biggest dysfunction is thinking I am responsible (and had the power) for everyone elses well-being.... It is a bit like being an alcoholic I imagine, I am predisposed to feel guilty, and neglect my emotional well-being in favor of others...but I recognize that now, and resist acting sacrificially....I am also getting better at saying what I need/feel without worrying whether that will distress people...it is very difficult to do, but strangely gratifying....I am still a sucker for every needy person that crosses my radar...but am getting better at NOT being helpful (if you know what I mean).

I am still sorting out what marriage actually is, when it is actually extant, whether it is simply a matter of statement (religion), a manifestation of actions (MB), or something else (a psychological synergy I refer to as fit). I have been away from church too long (not that I have avoided at religion at all....just chose to pursue/reflect in a solitary fashion).

I am enjoying my primary recreational activity, the pursuit of understanding about human nature....you really should read The Blank Slate by Steve Pinker, a fascinating compilation of all that is known (now) about human nature, evolutionary psychology, and the resultant human behaviour. For example, just read the chapter about gender/sexuality/etc. the part that dealt with the various theories re rape and how it is about power and/or patriarchy (something I thought too) is not true at all....for the most part, it is about sex... The next chapter had to do with "nurturing" and the part talking about the influence of "parenting"...turns out parenting has almost nothing to do with how children turn out....and study after study after study has yeilded the same result... We (our adult persona) is primarily determined by our genetics....with a strong modification by one other factor...can you guess what it is?

Of course these things have all sorts of strident controversy in the various "camps" (liberals, conservatives, feminists, etc.) and he goes over the "politics" of behavioural enquiry as well...It is amazing (well to me anyway as a rationalist) how fearful people are about the science of behaviour...but he does a real good job of demonstrating how science is just science, we can't make good decisions without it, but we can still have political agendas that further social goals.

I am getting along well with my children, and applying much that I have learned, as well as mentoring them accordingly...hopefully they will benefit by what adversity teaches. I remain in substantial conflict elsewhere, with little likelihood of mutual understanding. But I have come to understand sometimes people just speak entirely different languages, and there is no common ground....only conflict, and unhappiness...and that I cannot fix it.

thx for asking

FROM SARIE: "I am probably more honest than you in every area of my life EXCEPT this big one, being unfaithful to my husband..."

Sorry Sarie, I'm going to jump down your throat on that one, as someone who was lied to by a WH.

He didn't just lie to me about "the big one." When he said he was going to a restaurant for lunch, he was going for two miles in the opposite direction to get b**w jobs at her house. After D-Day, when he told me every day that he was not in contact with her -- he lied. When he said he wasn't seeing her and arranged to meet her at the grocery store -- he lied. Each kiss was a lie, each pledge of love was a lie ... as well as the big lie he told to me on our wedding day.

I'll be willing to bet your life is the same. I bet your "big lie" is backed up by hundreds of little lies about where you are, what you are doing, who you do what with, and what you feel. Not to mention the lie about your "too tired" for sex with H because you are being pumped by someone else.

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

Sarie: Say what you want but I am NOT a cold uncaring person, I am a kind and nice person that fell for another man!

Orchid: ,,,so it wasn't intially calculated but eventually it was right? Did you continue to see yourself as a kind and nice person to your H and family? How about in your other relationships (work, friends, family, personal beliefs, etc.)?

Sarie:The last 3 that posted have written 3400, 5200 and 2800 messages.
You must live on the Internet!

Orchid: Aaaahhh.... come on Sarie, 2800 3400, 5200, isnt; that much. I mean really how much time did you spend with the OM? E-mails, phone calls, meetings, time in thought? Realize this, for some of us posting here was and is duel purpose. Most BS'' have little time to get help since most are stuck with family responsibliities while their 'kind and nice' spouses are out 'making friends'. I think the milestone counts are around 10k, then maybe, just maybe the BS could compete in MB time with all the time the WS and OP spend together.

Sarie:I can't help but wonder if you became close friends with a member of the opposite sex and you became 'smitten' and fell in love with him/her just how well you would be able to not get involved?

Orchid: You ask a good question, one many a BS has asked themselves because their WS using the same excuse. Why? Well most of the answers take into account morals, loyalty, love, care and commitment. Honesty plays a big part. See when you look at it that way, somehow those kind and nice qualities which are good to have just can't stand up against the others by themselves. My H just told another BS this past weekend that I had many an opportunity to be unfaithful to him. He is right but I choose not to and he knows it. Of course he now regrets his escapades but he can't reverse them but he can fix his future.

Fortunately for him, I forgave him and now he is working on recovery and I am assisting him. I am not better than my H just that our individual recovery starts at different points.

Sarie:Stronger people than I have had affairs including ministers & Sunday School teachers!
NEVER SAY NEVER because the first 25 years of my marriage I would have said I would NEVER be unfaithful to my husband.

Orchid: Your statement is correct. However it is not an excuse and you are correct that we can never say never but we can certainly to our best to avoid being in that position.

As for the stronger people, those in positions are not necessarily a sign that they are strong in this aspect of life. You can't measure one's strength in faiithfulness and loyalty by their job title. Not in real life.

Sarie:Now I am going to go crawl in bed with him instead of being downstairs on the Internet.

Orchid: That's good to hear. How does your H feel about your adventures?

Sarie:..... I do appreciate the things you say, even if they are upsetting to me or I do not agree with them, I am sure you are giving some good advice.

I have much to think about.

Orchid: While we don't mean to 'upset' you, you do need to realize that you are in a marriage building website. There are other sites which would probably welcome some of your comments in a more favorable light but I don't think they like dealing with the real world and whole picture.

Keep thinking and learning. You are never too old for that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

I can't believe that you are giving yourself an excuse for having an A by saying that better people then yourself has had affairs. So if one of your children were to have an A and say well my mom is a good person and she has one, would that make it okay? Come on...you can't be real...I asked you yesterday to please go back and read your posts and try and see why we are so sceptical.

If you'll check us out you will see that we are normally a little kinder to WS's. Remember most of us are BS's and our still with our WS's so we realize that being a WS doesn't make you a bad person. I believe that your character pre A and post A are what determines what type of person you really are. My personal philosophy is that a normally "good" person who has an A has been rendered temporarily insane.

My FWH was a good man, husband and father pre Affair, he was crazy during the A (what he did and how he acted was totally out of character...IC is person who told of to think of his A period as temporary insanity). After the A and after he was out of the fog, he worked harder then I've ever seen a person work to overcome what he'd done. He read/posted to this site, read all the infidelity books, talked to me sometimes almost 24 hours a day answering questions, went to IC, MC, counseled with the Harley's, took a polygraph, agreed and did follow all MB principles (including open and honesty).

That's the type of person who is a good person who made a horrible mistake and who committed to becoming a person who would never do such a thing again! He worked hard in IC to figure out what went wrong, how to change his thinking, how to be able to communciate his needs, how to help me through the devastation he'd wrought, motivated me to make improvements in myself, how to communciate effectively with me, etc. He even reads parenting books with me. Redevoted himself to God and his teachings.

Pre Affair we had a very good marriage, now we have an awesome marriage/relationship. We looked at his A as a near death experience and treated it as such.

WHAT WE DIDN'T DO IS MINIMIZE IT LIKE YOU DID!

Have you asked yourself what will prevent you from doing this again? What has changed now? Sounds like your H is a good guy but obviously he's not meeting some of your needs or you wouldn't have gone outside your M. If you don't tell him and get yourself into IC and the both of you into MC what will prevent it?

Would you read 'what led to my being unfaithful to my husband' and reply again

I am feeling very sad right now and scared!

I just want SOMEONE to tell me that I can have a good marriage without telling him of my affair.

OF COURSE I DON'T WANT HIM TO KNOW.
Did any of you tell your spouse, that weren't caught and HAD TO TELL?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarie:
<strong>

I just want SOMEONE to tell me that I can have a good marriage without telling him of my affair.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one will tell you that, because it's a lie. We won't lie to you here. You can lie to yourself, but we won't lie to you. Go back and read JustLearning's posts about why you have to tell him in order to have a good marriage.

Here is what Harley says about it:
“From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of two rules you must follow to protect your spouse from your self-centered behavior, which includes affairs. The other rule is the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). If you were to be completely honest with you spouse, and you were to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, an affair would be impossible, unless for some reason your spouse wanted you to have one.

If you knew that your affair would be discovered -- that right after having sex with your co-worker, your spouse were to find out about it -- you would probably not go through with it. And if you were honest enough with your spouse so that YOU would be the one to tell him or her what you did, your honesty would be a huge reason to avoid any affair.

How the victimized spouse should respond to the revelation of an affair is a subject of a later column. I do not have the space to treat it here. But a spouse is twice victimized when he or she is lied to about an affair. Truth is far easier to handle than lies.”

Sarie,

Here is something else I encourage you to read from Mr Harley&#8217;s Basic Concept on Radical Honesty:

Historical Honesty

"But I am one of the VERY FEW that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs."


That sentence stood out to me more than any of the others.
That he is one of the VERY FEW that advise revealing the affair.

That means there are many other specialists that don't advise it so I will have to read what others write before I CONFESS my affair to my husband.

Everyone here thinks Dr. Haley's ADVISE is the only good advice but perhaps not?
Sincerely, Sarah

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"But I am one of the VERY FEW that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs."


That sentence stood out to me more than any of the others.
That he is one of the VERY FEW that advise revealing the affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And he is one of the very few that sucessfully rebuilds happy marriages. He has a much higher success rate than other counselors who tend to be anti-marriage. You can't argue with success.

You are grasping at straws. The popularity [or lack thereof] of an idea does not determine its merit. [unless you are a lemming or an excuse seeking adulteress <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ] What determines its merit is the value of the idea. Focus on the idea and quit looking for ways to divert the issue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarie:
<strong>

Everyone here thinks Dr. Haley's ADVISE is the only good advice but perhaps not?
Sincerely, Sarah </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And perhaps you have no other reason for thinking its not good advice other than your cowardice? Isn't that the only reason you would question it?

Yep! I am in denial that the only way to heal my marriage and make it the best it can be is to tell of my affair.

I will probably soon be leaving this message board but I promise to be the best wife I can be to my husband and become a once again faithful and trustworthy wife.

THE AFFAIR IS OVER, if I have learned anything from all the good advise is how cruely I have treated my husband without him even knowing it!
I had the mistaken feeling of what he doesn't know won't hurt him.

I KNOW I will never resume my affair with the OM, even if he called right this minute and said his 'honey' left him.
That part of my life is OVER, and I will do my part to make our marriage GREAT. (Without telling him.)
Love & sincerety, Sarah

Sarie here's a thought for you to consider. The next time you and your H are alone ask him the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"In your eyes, have I changed from the person I was 10 years ago? If I have, do you miss the 'old' me?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If he's honest his answers may indeed surprise you. He may even tell you that he misses the old Sarie a lot. In which case, your assertions that your 10 year affair did not affect him were wrong. Why don't you try it?

I will ask him that tonight, Mr. coffee man.

I will give you a clue though, about people that have affairs: Out of GUILT, we treat our mates better and kinder than those not having affairs!

When he yells and cusses over small stuff (like if he spills something) I patiently clean it up, never use harsh words to him probably because what I know I have done is so much worse than anything he does!
Love, Sarah

Originally posted by sufdb:


How am I doing? Hmmm.... have a lot of difficulty with guilt, and feeling like tainted goods...

Hey .... none of that now! We are ALL, every one of us, "tainted goods" in one way or another. Your gifts to the world are much heavier than your "taintedness" (new word, just made it up) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


but my rational side does a good job of getting past that, understanding that my biggest dysfunction is thinking I am responsible (and had the power) for everyone elses well-being.... It is a bit like being an alcoholic I imagine, I am predisposed to feel guilty,

Why is that? What sort of glass-half-empty world do you reside in?

and neglect my emotional well-being in favor of others...

Tisk-tisk .... but once you see the problem and own it, you empower yourself to make changes. Don't you just love that?


but I recognize that now, and resist acting sacrificially....I am also getting better at saying what I need/feel without worrying whether that will distress people...



In Schnarch's world, this is considered to be the voice of your integrity realizing differentiation.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You can be *honest* and *kind* simultaneously ..... something our little sister of this thread has not yet even imagined! But what a long way you have come.

it is very difficult to do, but strangely gratifying....I am still a sucker for every needy person that crosses my radar...but am getting better at NOT being helpful (if you know what I mean).

And you are very much like me in that respect. Don't forget, my H is an alcoholic now in wonderful recovery.

I am still sorting out what marriage actually is, when it is actually extant, whether it is simply a matter of statement (religion), a manifestation of actions (MB), or something else (a psychological synergy I refer to as fit). I have been away from church too long (not that I have avoided at religion at all....just chose to pursue/reflect in a solitary fashion).

I hope your faith increases. I find mine to be so wonderful and intellectually stimulating (of all things)



I am enjoying my primary recreational activity, the pursuit of understanding about human nature....you really should read The Blank Slate by Steve Pinker, a fascinating compilation of all that is known (now) about human nature, evolutionary psychology, and the resultant human behaviour. For example, just read the chapter about gender/sexuality/etc. the part that dealt with the various theories re rape and how it is about power and/or patriarchy (something I thought too) is not true at all....for the most part, it is about sex... The next chapter had to do with "nurturing" and the part talking about the influence of "parenting"...turns out parenting has almost nothing to do with how children turn out....and study after study after study has yeilded the same result...

Gulp! You know, this is the age old "nature vs nurture" debate. I saw a cartoon recently that said ...."either way, it's STILL all Mom's fault" LOL!

We (our adult persona) is primarily determined by our genetics....with a strong modification by one other factor...can you guess what it is?

breastfeeding vs bottle feeding???? J/K <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


I remain in substantial conflict elsewhere, with little likelihood of mutual understanding. But I have come to understand sometimes people just speak entirely different languages, and there is no common ground....only conflict, and unhappiness...and that I cannot fix it.

Well, in some ways, your conflict has inspiration value!

You take care

Pep

I can't resist challenging that one statement...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "But I am one of the VERY FEW that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs."

That sentence stood out to me more than any of the others. That he is one of the VERY FEW that advise revealing the affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe the last part is the crux: "at all costs" because currently lots of MC advocate the revelation of an A. Do some reading of various relationship literature -- I've read through tons of the current material and most advocate revealing the A, although not "at all costs".

Why? for the reasons already stated...lack of honesty will be like a cancer within your relationship...it is a true sign of remorse on the part of the WS...it leads to true healing/recovery...lots of reasons, all good.

Edited to add: I also meant to mention what TMCM goes on to say concerning behaviour of WS, except that it doesn't depend on the sex of the WS at all. Perhaps some WS are kinder, but I suspect the majority are meaner BECAUSE of guilt (rationalization). This thread itself contains some incredible examples of rationalization.

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarie:

I will give you a clue though, about people that have affairs: Out of GUILT, we treat our mates better and kinder than those not having affairs!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From this comment I can see that you still have a lot to learn about affairs and the people who have them.

I don't doubt that in your case you may have treated your H better, but I beg to differ with your generalization because not all WS and affairs are alike. In my case, my XWW(first W) was not only cold but incredibly cruel to me. A lot of it had to do with her unresolved psychological issues prior to our marriage.

If you just lurk and read the stories of many FWW(former wayward wives) you'll see that a great number of them were far from being loving and caring to their BH's while their affairs were going strong. Far from it, they were outright hostile in part because by demonizing their BH's they could justify their selfish and thoughtless actions. You might want to start a thread with the title 'FWW's how did you treat your BH during your affair' to see that I'm not lying to you about their far from exemplary behavior.

Oh, Harley is NOT the only advocate of telling the BS about the affair. The late Dr Shirley Glass Ph.D. (author of 'Not Just Friends') made many studies in the field of marital infidelity and she also came to the conclusion that revealing the affair to the BS was an essential part of marital recovery.

I don't know your H, and I can't guarantee you that he is not going to leave you if you tell him the truth about your affair BUT I'd be willing to bet good money that he is unlikely to divorce you with so much marital history between the two of you.

Sarie, you mentioned in your other thread 'What lead to me being an unfaithful wife' that your OM fulfilled a very important EN(emotional need) that your H did not, and that was he paid ATTENTION to you which made you fall in love with him. Do you beleive that if your H had given you the attention that the OM gave you, that you would have had an affair? Very unlikely ,right?

Sarie it takes BOTH spouses to make a happy and healthy marriage a reality. How is your H going to be able to do his part, when he doesn't have a clue what your most important EN's are to begin with? How is he going to realize that HIS neglect contributed to the environment that lead to you affair if you don't tell him the truth?

Sarie have you considered that it is not the OM that you really miss, but the ATTENTION he gave you? The OM became a symbol of attention. Wouldn't you like to have your H give you the kind of attention the OM gave you? Well that is NEVER going to happen if he continues to erroneously beleive that he is satisfying all of your most important EN's(emotional needs).

Please think about what I said.

Originally posted by Sarie:

I just want SOMEONE to tell me that I can have a good marriage without telling him of my affair.

How INTIMATE can a relationship be if it dishonest and divided into little compartments?

What you are calling "good" might be superficial and lacking intimacy.

Intimacy implyies real knowledge and love for who your spouse actually is, and he loves you for who you actually are. Intimacy is not loving who the spouse is pretending to be. Intimacy is not loving the spouses "reputation".

Intimacy acknowledges imperfection, and loves anyway.

You are hiding from being known intimately.

True intimacy scares you to death.

You don't trust intimacy.

You have been hurt by love and intimacy more than once.

You affair was an escape from intimacy. An actress playing a role.

Your "good" marriage will be dry and stale, because YOU won't be available for actual intimacy.

You plan to hide.

You escaped with an affair, and you plan to escape by secrecy.

Who are you hiding from?

Your Mom? Your Dad?

Why cannot someone love you if they actually "see" the real you?

What do you imagine is so flawed about you that you must hide your real self for the rest of your life?

Pep