I'm so scared...

The particulars of what I've been through are in my signature. On about 11/23, I told my husband that after we'd worked out the details of our separation, I would be "pulling back" from him - basically going into Plan B, although he isn't familiar with that term. He hated that idea... he said, "Don't pull away. Show me that I have a home to come back to; something better than what I left." This sounded to me like Plan A, so I agreed. I invited him to Thanksgiving, and we set up a "date" for Friday, the next day.

Thanksgiving went well. He was a little nervous to see certain members of his family (he's feeling very hostile toward his side of the family, claiming they have "ostracized" him, which isn't true), but he and I did great. We talked a little, and actually ended up periodically disappearing together to go make out! We were both surprised, and both enjoying it very much. After everyone left, he stayed to make out on the couch some more... so long that he was late for work at midnight! He'd also told the OW (whom he is living with) that he'd be back between 8pm-9pm, but he didn't even call her.

The next day was our date. I was excited... spent some birthday cash on getting my nails done and stuff. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We went to dinner, then came back to our house for some very heavy petting. He respected my request for no intercourse, and we still had a VERY intimate and enjoyable night... right up until the OW showed up on my doorstep.

To backtrack... my telephone started ringing at about 3am, and the caller ID noted that it was her. My H checked his cell phone and sure enough, there were eight or nine messages from her. He didn't return any of them, and we unplugged the upstairs house phones - we could hear the downstairs ones ringing incessantly, but we ignored them. Then at 5:15am... the doorbell rang.

This woman, after making all those phone calls to my husband's cell and my house phone, had also called her husband about fifty times, until he answered. (Keep in mind, the OW was AT WORK making all of these phone calls!) She asked her husband if he knew where my husband was!! He told her what he knew... that my children were spending the night at their aunt's house, and my husband and I had gone out. Apparently, my husband had told her that we were going out as a family, but he'd probably just crash at our house.

She hung up the phone and immediately left her work, and drove the hour out to my house, and started ringing the doorbell incessantly. My husband went out and talked to her for about half an hour (I interrupted once, to make sure that he wouldn't be leaving with her) then came back to bed with me. He didn't tell me anything that was said, and I didn't ask. I ended up dropping him off back at their place late the next morning. (They sleep on a mattress in the basement of the OW's friends, it isn't really "their place".)

Yesterday, Sunday, there was a family birthday party, and my husband actually showed up... physically, anyway. He was very nervous about seeing his parents, and spent much of his time outside or otherwise avoiding the adult population. His parents did acknowledge his presence with a hello - even a kiss from his mom! - and overall things went well.

But he was in a horrible mood, and I tried talking to him on the way home. He said he had a headache, needed more sleep before work (he is horribly horribly sleep deprived and has been for years - he won't acknowledge that that factor probably has a lot to do with the situation he's created), and didn't want to talk. He said, "I know I have made a lot of progress at being able to express myself, but I have drawn back into myself now, and I'm finding it hard to get back out."

We talked again about him moving someplace away from us both. He finally admits that that is probably a good idea, but I don't think he will do it because it's hard. Not only emotionally, but where he is now he is close to work, and he and the OW share a car. He has nowhere to go that will provide him a vehicle and be so close to work.

I guess that pretty much explains it all, I won't bore you with further details. Suffice to say that our conversations last night, and the one I just had with him on the phone (with the OW right next to him) are suddenly very stiff and borderline rude. I feel totally shut out again. I feel like I am the only one talking "reality" to him, but since he doesn't want to hear it, I am the one that pays the price.

So... what do I do now? So far, I have kept the rest of his family informed, but otherwise at bay, but now I am hoping they get involved. (Although this will likely backfire... my husband and the OW have convinced themselves that it's no one else's business but the four adults involved - they have NO idea how deeply the rest of the family is affected by their actions.) How badly did I screw up Plan A? Should I continue with Plan A... he has tomorrow night off, and I suggested going out again, but he wouldn't say yes or no. Or should I head into Plan B?

I am so confused.

I want to refer him to this message board, but I am afraid he will read my messages. On the one hand, I have nothing to hide, but on the other... I know he will be upset at knowing how much I have told his family, etc.

I don't know what to do, and my reserves of patience and emotional fortitude are running low. Any ideas?

Thank you!!

INAF, from what I see, it is definitely time for Plan B. Cerri's signature line says if the WS is trying to decide between OP and spouse, it's time for Plan B. (I didn't follow that plan. But my H wasn't living with OW. I hope we recover.) But it makes sense.

Clearly to me, if he is living with her, Plan B darlin! No more make out sessions, no more petting, no more dates, no more talking.

Read up on Plan B. It is used to preserve your love for your spouse. If you continue this way, you will lose your love for him. He hasn't been in this thing very long. He may wake up soon.

hmmmm how good can your husband feel about having some about having a hysterical woman at the doorstep of his childrens home who are three and six regardless of the fact that they weren't home...

how good can your husband feel about sleeping on a mattress in the basement of their house...

I would if I were consider using some time pre-holiday/holiday season when things can be really sentimental...
to mix things up a bit...

the more she escalates and loses control the more you want to be in control...

first I would set boundaries...

If that woman ever calls MY house again I will change the number and go unlisted...
If she ever shows up on my doorstep again I will call the police..
I will not have such chaos in my life...

What is the car deal..
the fact that he doesn't have a car makes him unreasonably dependant on her in an unhealthy way as far as I am concerned....

Do you pick him up to see the children..
do you drop him off at his OW friends pad??
uggh for you if you do...and would consider not doing that anymore...

you may consider a boundary in which you remove yourself from making his little affair more akin to reality rather than door to door service from you to the OW>..

BUT BUT BUT because things went well the two days..
and because her irrational and childish behavior may and can be to your advantage...the real and only question is ..
can you tolerate a little more of this knowing you may get more hurt...

the answer is totally yours..but if it's yes here's what I would consider...

inviting him over tonight with the family..
have the house smelling great..do something holiday like...(sorry I may be grossly wrong in assuming that you celebrate christmas...)
do something seasonally appropriate... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would also encourage you to mix things up a bit...step up the creation of the illusion you are moving on without him...
NOT DATING NOT SEEING SOMEONE...the illusion that you have and are developing other interests..
call him up and tell him you need him to watch the kids some day/eve/night...and go out and don't tell him where or with whom...

go out looking fabulous...

keep inviting him to things....
expect him to deny...but go and do anyways...
when he doesn't accept the invitation...
go any ways...and the next time you talk to him tell him what a great time you had...
tell about some interesting person or thing you met...
make up some story how someone you met couldn't believe you had two children...cause you look too young.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (I get that it's cheesy but it's the illusion of his fears...and the reality of his choices...

tell also how you missed him there...how you thought that he would have enjoyed this part or that part...

mix it up with the messages....

set a time limit you can live then consider moving to Plan b...

Give no weight to how he spoke to you with the OW sitting right there... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
could it be more pathetic....a grown man talking ot his wife with the OW standing over him frowning...
blleeecchhh...

take peace and comfort that you are not him...

no fighting no powerstruggling...
does he do have regular vistitation...
set boundaries that your children will not be exposed to some crazy woman that calls over and over again..
do it without argueing but be clear and concise on the no chaos in the children's lives rule...

consider setting regular visitation...again the reality of his actions...but not with OW>..set that up now...and if you haven't before..use this past weekend as the catalyst to say...no way....

she called at 3am believing the children were there...nice move "lady"...there's some class...

find the divorce busting 180's and seriously consider stepping up the illusion since that's what he says he does not want...

ark

Well, I think this is what I am going to do. I will be seeing my husband later today, and I am going to give him a letter. The letter basically states that I am willing to continue "dating" but here are the boundaries... and I list various boundaries, including lying, time limits, sex, communication, etc.

I made it very clear that if these boundaries are violated I will "go dark" - my way of telling him that I will go into plan B.

The letter also recommends the MB website. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The letter offers the opportunity for another "date" tomorrow night, which is his night off this week. (He only gets one night off a week.) Somehow, I do not think that he will take me up on this offer.

Anyway... thank you for the support. I am so grateful for this message board, even though we're all here for an awful reason. I will let you know how my letter is received. Time to go cross my fingers and pray!!

Hi foghorn,

Ummm,my feeling is that as long as this OW is still in the picture here,why are you going out of your way to be so accomodating?

Plan B is used when the WS can't decide right? That is exactly where he is in his mind.I'm sorry but it just doesn't sound right that you and OW are both playing WH.Especially,this OW sounds somwehat unhinged to show up at your home.I would be wary of her in a big way.

I don't want to offend you in any way but a big Plan B is what I would be doing since he is having a big cake eating experience right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

October

Foghorn,

Please listen to Ark and October... I know it will be hard but you are still making this take longer for your WS to decide. You need to Plan B. And from what I have read on this board, you really, really have to STICK TO IT! No Plan B'g and then not Plan B'g as soon as WS throws you a few bones. No making out PERIOD! I know it's hard but it really is the only way unless you want things always so wishy washy like they are now.

check in foghorn.

Did you see him yet?

If not, have you considered changing your letter to a Plan B letter? It appears there is a concensus on that.

When I asked people about my situation, I got Plan A suggestions, and a few Plan B suggestions.

Here, you're not getting any Plan A. Please consider seriously.

Wow, there is a real consensus here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The problem is, I've already given him the letter. We talked a bit last night and everything was fine, then he had a run-in with the OW's husband. It was the first time they'd been in the same vicinity since the A was revealed and the husband understandably got into my husband's face a little. No physical contact, but he's a much bigger guy than my husband and can be very intimidating.

Unfortunately, my husband didn't have time to read my letter until AFTER this confrontation, and apparently the letter angered him a bit. He concedes his morning that perhaps he was already upset and says he will read it again after he's had some sleep today.

My husband is so stressed out he's having chest pains and other physical problems. I am so worried about him!

We will NOT be seeing each other today. The OW is "dragging" him out with her, provided he's feeling well enough to go. He did promise to talk more with me later today, and we will see each other tomorrow when he comes to visit the boys.

Why am I being so accomodating? That's an excellent question that I ask myself constantly. I guess because it wasn't until about three weeks ago that my husband and I were truly communicating, so I felt that that was the a new "starting point". At this starting point, judging by what he wanted and seemed to need, Plan A sounded like the way to go.

Also, because one of my biggest goals is to get him to move out of the basement he's sharing with the OW. He doesn't have to come home right away, but I am sure that once he's out from that web for a few days, the fog will lift even more. And I don't think he'd move without me reminding him and helping him do so... it's much easier to just stay where he is.

He knows perfectly clearly that I will withdraw into Plan B if this goes on too long, or if I feel used in any way, etc. He still seems freaked out by that prospect.

He is also still very upset about the upcoming holiday... the boys and I will be across the country with my family, and he will be here alone. Personally, I think that may do him some good.

So... it looks like I am still in Plan A for the time being, although the consensus clearly is that it should be Plan B. Now what? I told him that I wouldn't "go dark" unless he violated one of the clearly stated boundaries, so I don't feel comfortable suddenly shutting him out.

And I will admit, that the communication between us great. Not easy and not perfect, but far far better than it has ever been. There is a part of me that doesn't want to lose or jeopardize that.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi again foghorn,

I realize that you may feel that you are making headway but please remember one very important aspect in all this:

*Your WH needs to come back to you of his own free will**

Not only is he cake eating big time,he is also at the mercy of two feuding women in his life and various other characters but also if it is *your goal to get him to move out and draw him out of the OW basement,then you are,IMHO,misdirected in your goal(s).

Shutting him out is not exactly what you need to do although you do need to back pedal and realize that the "boundaries" you set up before were not really appropriate.You gave WH too much leeway.But you can still set a Plan B in motion.I know what little interaction you have had with WH so far has had you hopeful but it is truly prolonging any truth of what may come.Your WH cannot and has not done anything to help himself make a decision,he can't.Others need to do that for him right now and that means for you, Plan B.Unless you are now willing to compromise your integrity too and take what scraps he is giving.

*Please note that I do not want to make you feel bad and I don't want to offend you but from another's point of view here that is not directly related to what you are going through,I hope you can see that you have also developed a fog and I hope you can sense that we who post to you are only looking out for you and what we see as an issue with the current situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

October

OK foghorn. So you gave him the letter. It can't be taken back so you need to rethink.

I agree that you need to make sure he stays well within the boundaries you set in the letter. I'm worried that you will cut him some slack if he strays outside the boundaries and won't Plan B.

Stick to your guns!

One little slip ... and boom ... PLAN B!!!

I understand about the communication being better and you not wanting to break that. Keep up the good communication, but remember to respect yourself. You need to do what you can to protect yourself. He's got a crazy OW ... she could be dangerous, so watch yourself.

Keep us updated! I'll pray for you!

Ineed..

I totally hear you and support you in continueing plan b..in the sense that you alone are the only one that can decide when you alone have had enough...

I do seriously think though that you should step up the illusion of not hanging and just waiting for him..

have you thought about going out tomorrow when he comes over to see the kids...greeting him at the door looking and smelling great...and booking out of there....?

does he see the children without you there...do you get any free time...since he is sooo privy to running around with OW...

when he comes over to visit kids what about having other family members over...engaged in some family activity....show him glimpses of what he is missing to be living in the basement of someone elses home... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

please go back and read my first post...it was not at all about going plan b...at this time...

ark

Hi October...

You're not making me feel bad at all, you're making me think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The reason that getting him to move out of that basement is a goal is so that he CAN make the decision on his own. I don't see how he can obtain any objectivity whatsoever (is that even possible, LOL?) when he is still sharing a mattress, a car, and a schedule with her. His whole life revolves around her because he can't do anything without her car/permission/knowledge.

Does that make sense, or is it my own fog talking?

Hi Stung... thanks for the support, that is what I will do. I am confident that I can go into Plan B if he steps outside boundaries. Not that it will be easy, but I am a strong person.

Hi Ark... your point is well taken in that he needs to see that I do have a life outside of him. I was doing very well in that area before our "breakthrough conversation" and reestablishing true communication, but it is true that since then it's been all about him.

Unfortunately, the rest of the family lives an hour away, and rarely visits, but some family things have been arranged. With the holidays coming, there are definitely some traditions that my husband will be missing out on.

As for tomorrow... he suggested taking the boys to see Santa, but I wanted to be along for that. I was going to invite him to help the boys and me decorate for Christmas; then maybe all of us see Santa over the weekend, when the boys and I are in town (where the mall is) anyway.

These are some of the traditions I was referring to; decorating, visiting Santa, and some other community events and extended family things that are happening this weekend.

Grrr, this is so hard!

Hi again,

Ugh. I know this is so hard but if I may say so,WH needs to pull himself out of that darn basement only after he realizes that if anything,he needs to start making some serious decisions,confusion or no confusion.Fog or no fog.

Objectivity is not something he will be able to grasp for a long time I think but enabling him to be in two lives at the same time I don't think will help him to move toward any decision making.

If all he is worth right now to this OW is a mattress on a floor and needing "permission" to go and take a leak basically is something I would hope that he would finally ask himself "is this worth it all?" at some point but knowing at least that you are not there right around the bend to be there for him.He has to experience your loss in some way.I don't believe he really thinks that he has lost you in the most important way.

As you said,reestablishing the communication is all about him and he is basically holding on to what tidbits you have given him,enough for him to sustain this fence sitting.

I am in the same boat in that I too have to forge a "life" without my WH in a way that makes me feel more secure,strong and not allow him to keep hurting me with his actions and words.I actually feel better most of the time when my WH is gone,which he is at a 3 month job in another state. I'm 99.9% sure the OW isn't in the picture anymore(lives in another country) but I have another "woman" to deal with now,his career.

So,I am making it such that it will be one or the other in terms of priorities.We'll see how that goes but you need to break the bonds,IMO,to hopefully make your husband see how serious you are.He has boundaries set by you already,yes,but I think he is comfortable with those so far.As long as he can keep YOU in the loop,why should he make any decisions or moves?

There are aspects to the "treatment" of affairs that aren't so easily implemented and others are cut and dry.One for me is: a marriage is not a threesome.There cannot be any true real recovery with the OW/OM in the relationship,still.

Sorry,I know that this is hard no matter which way you look at it.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


October

"Marriage is not a threesome." It is funny that you said that because that's the thought that's been on my mind all morning; the feeling that suddenly I am in an "open" marriage. Ugh. Well, I think one thing is for sure... the physical intimacy will not reach that level again. It's too much.

And you are 100 percent correct that he doesn't feel the loss of me at all. He knows that I will not see another man until I am single again... and with kids, we're still connected enough that there is no loss.

I can relate to your career issues, because my husband has similar ones. That's why we were so disconnected to begin with, and why there is little "loss" of me to feel.

On a positive note though, he has said lately that he's realized that he made work too much of a priority. Just this morning he told me he'd been reprimanded at work for being consistently late a few minutes every night... and he told the boss he really didn't care right now if he even were fired, because he had far more important things to be worried about in his life. This from a man who's chosen to work 50-60 per week for the last six years, even when not necessary.

Thanks for the thought provocation Octobergirl... it does help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, I don't know that admitting that your WH worked too much is such a positive thing.My WH admitted to that as well but he just keeps on making work decisions that take him away from the family and our marriage.

Yes the money is great but we are suffering bigtime because of that.For my WH ,it is about following his "dream" to make movies all the while we have been distant(due to that fact) and I basically thought that I was doing the right thing raising our girls and being a stay at home mom,etc.I was happy because I thought he was happy.I don't regret that decision at all.

But I never dreamed about an affair happening and now I am terribly lonely but trying to do a pseudo Plan B since he is on this 3 month job which may turn out to be long term,don't know yet.

What is so hard is realizing that I was settling for less than what I wanted and needed in a husband.I look back at all the times I was the only parent to get the kids up and put them to bed since he was working late and busy.I think WH always felt that I would always be around and he had his family there in the *background no matter what.He admitted he was ready to "start a new life" with the homewrecker(ow)when he was in the A but he got fired and had to leave country(thank God!).

So,we had two weeks together and have not had a decent chance to work on our marriage but I am definitely going to keep trying to get on with my life without him right now(so hard) but I am still open to working on our marriage(WH knows that) if the OW is not a part of things. I don't believe she is.Same should be for you I think.Don't be his(WH) second choice or the only option.Actions do speak louder than words and so far, I haven't had much to be hopeful for and your WH indecisiveness speaks volumes too.Just my thoughts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

October

This is an Angry Day.

I'm feeling on edge and angry. Husband is due here in an hour or two to visit the kids. I know he and the OW went out last night; it's my assumption that they've finally had their "make-up sex" after she got upset about him being with me. I haven't asked my husband that directly, it's just an assumption on my part.

Argh. How am I going to get through this day without Love Busting? All I want to do is yell at him and ask him if he's enjoying eating his cake?! Did he have enough fun last night to take away his chest pains and to justify not being at home and helping with Christmas decorations?!

I did print out the EN questionnaire and the LB questionnaire. I've filled out the EN one, and will do the LB one when I am finished with this post. I intend to give them to my H today, along with blank copies. I'll tell him that I am not making him do anything, but there they are if he wants to. I know this is enabling, but it's driving me crazy!

I also intend to point out to him that it seems to me that he is making no effort "spend time with me" the way he said he wanted to. Thanksgiving and the day after were 95 percent my doing, and since then he's only come around me for "other" reasons... kids, etc.

I think he will be taking the boys to see Santa this afternoon. He knows that I wanted to come along, but did not invite me. When I said, "Am I welcome to come along?" his answer was, "If you want to." Needless to say, I will NOT be going, I can't handle this today.

I just want to get the stupid Christmas decorations up (that sounds blasphemous!) and wrap the presents I've bought, then wait for this holiday to be over. When it is, I will then prepare for our January court date (for custody and support) and for the battle that I know it will be to move my boys out of state.

Plan B is thisclose.

Thanks for letting me vent. I don't know if it will prevent any LBing or not, but at least some of the steam has been let off!

On to the LB questionnaire...

<small>[ December 03, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: INeedAFoghorn ]</small>

Hi foghorn,

Warning: 2x4 comin at ya! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are still letting your WH have his cake eating experience and he is still dragging you along on his wacked out emotional rollercoaster ride.He still has you where he wants you.

What are you still expecting? Asking him to go see santa and giving him the questionnaires,blah blah,blah,forget it.Cut him off at the kneecaps!

PLAN B

Moving out of state is something I didn't know you were doing but that may be the best Plan B you can do.I must have missed that part somewhere about the move?

October

<gets whacked by 2x4> Ow! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well... he's on his way over, I was just talking to him on his cell. Deep conversation, went bad but was going well again when we got cut off I am sure we'll continue when he gets here.

I'm giving him the questionnaires BUT... not going to see Santa. I told him I was meeting a friend for coffee, and will be sure to be lookin' good when I go.

About moving out of state... I don't think you missed anything, it was mentioned in a previous thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> My parents and siblings live across the country, and I have pretty much decided that I would like to move there in the spring, with my husband or not. It's a financially sound move, and I need my family's support right now (although my in-laws have all been awesome.)

However... we do have a court date, and no matter what agreement is turned into a court order, the judge WILL tack on an addendum that will require me to notify my husband in writing 30 days before moving further than 50 miles away. This gives him time to file for an injunction to stop me from moving.

I've talked to my lawyer about this, and she says that if my husband fights it, he will have to show that his relationship with the kids is a) a good one, and b) will be adversely affected by the move. Which of course it would be. BUT... the fact that he's shacking up with the OW does work in my favor, so I have a chance. I just don't know.

The judge feels so strongly about this that my lawyer told me this story about another case: a man's ex-wife moved to a town 60 miles away. The judge made her move back because the father was no longer able to enjoy dinner with his children twice a week. !!

If I had known ahead of time that would be a consequence of filing for custody and support, I may not have gone this route.

Anyway... that's the story there.

I have a feeling that our conversation will be interesting tonight... will keep you posted!

<deep breath>

Ok...hope you stay strong.What a good idea to be closer to your family. I have my mom and dad right now and the in-laws/SIL aren't as close(3 hours away) but they are behind me all the way.

Good luck

Oct