Well, this particular affair is a long distance EA with a man she met on the internet. It only had the opportunity to become a PA last month when she took a trip, and he flew out to meet her there. Of course, she lied to me about it the entire time, right up until I presented her with the proof that I had, which is pretty much when she decided to move out.

reminds himself to stop those thoughts and move on to the topic at hand, before he goes into another long dialogue about things he's already talked about

Yea, it's a tough one financially. According to my lawyer, our income is still our income, no matter where she's living or what account it's kept in. The only thing that is seperate would be the child support, unless and until it's "co-mingled" in our joint account.

Also, ou property is ours, and our bills are ours. So I have to make sure those things are taken care of. If she gets to a point where she refuses to help with that stuff, then I have to take legal action of some kind.

Which reminds me, why should she be the one with the extra spending money, while I'm just scraping to make sure the bills get paid here? Shouldn't I look at how much "extra" we have in our budget, and divide that up?

I think I was too generous when making this agreement about finances. I may have to rethink that one...

No, I know I was too generous.

When figuring it out, I looked at our budget, determined how much income we had that was above and beyond paying our bils, and said that was how much she could take.

Now, all I've got is enough to get our bills paid, with no extra left over. Meanwhile, I can't see how she could possibly need the hundreds of dollars every week just for food and transportaion, thus I think that she must have plenty left over.

Add the fact that 60% of our family income comes from my paychecks, and I can't help but feel that I deserve a fair share of that extra money.

Just babbling here...thanks for reading and responding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, I'll be taking the kids to see a movie on Saturday afternoon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Also, I broke down and asked WW about money. Basically, I have to watch my spending very carefully, and I asked her to re-evaluate how much she needed, so that we might have more "room for error", and/or pay more to credit cards.

I think that I handled the interaction pretty well, being what I said and how I said it. As of the last email I got from her, it seems that she's willing to reduce how much she's pulling out for their expenses.

We'll see though, as her last message pulled one single line out of a message of two full paragraphs, and kind of attacked it, as though Iwas trying to insult her (regarding how much she's getting each week).

Ah well, only time will tell. But dangit! I need to be able to pay the normal bills, and would like extra money going to pay down debts, and not for whatever fun or savings she's looking to have.

Great Job on the Movies! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Plan to HAVE FUN, if you can.

<small>[ December 11, 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

UN:

Don't make this a pi$$ing contest by any means, but consider selling the house if this goes long term. Ask Mimi about that. If I remember correctly, it helped.

-2long

Good advice, but it's not really an option for me, because we have so much debt.

Actually, I can cover all of the costs of living here by myself, if I'm careful. What I'm most worried about is, if it gets to a point where all of "our bills" are being paid only from "my income", I'll be talking to my lawyer about doing something.

It might be a good idea to talk to your lawyer now about your different options. Despite being in PLAN A, you need to protect yourself while your WW is UNDER THE INFLUENCE.


I have learned how my FWH hid money and had money plans like you suspect although he continued to take good care of us. I still haven't found out all that he did. He says he'll take some embarassing secrets to his grave with him.

Looking at your sig line, it seems your W is trying to live her adolesence via her separation. The fact that she has separated from you her one source of stability for herself and her children to live life on the edge may be her attempt to escape the debit. That is fantasy just like the A.

If that is true, you may have to deal with your situation from a combined angle. Not just plan A but learning how to set boundaries for yourself and your family. Know that she may buck that as any spoiled child can do.

This is not a good example for the children. They are quite impressionable. How is your relationship with them?

L.

With the kids? Hmm...

It's been pretty decent I suppose. Good times and bad times, and some of thoes times I've been too harshly judgemental of them. Lately though, our relationships have seemed to get a lot better.

With the teeanger, we've talked a lot more about her life and her thoughts and feelings. I've made a very strong effort to think before speaking, to take deep breaths to calm myself when I get anxious or upset, and to avoid confrontations when I know I'm overly upset. It's something I did too often before, and I'm desperately trying to learn and improve.

With the 8 year old, well, she gets bounced around a lot. Up until 3 months ago when he got re-married and moved out, her biological father (WW's ex husband) lived with his mother, who is retired. Since that house is within bussing zones for her school, we would drop her off there on the way to work, she would take the bus there after school, and more often than not, she'd spend the night there, since she was just going to be back in the morning anyway. Well, for that reason and the fact that Grandma doesn't make her clean her room or anything over there.

So my relationship with her, which began when she was only a year old, has been good, fun, but often times distant. I've tried to convince her to spend more time at home, and I've tried to explain to WW that I feel it would make for a more cohesive family if she did, but it never seemed to work out that way.

To be snotty for a minute...without the youngest at home, WW wouldn't need to worry so much about the time she was spending on the computer (and with OM most of that time), because there was just me and a teenager who liked to be in her room and/or on the phone all the time.

So anyway, I think I've been a caring but mistake-prone parent for these past 7 years. I'm in IC to try and figure some of these things out for myself. The kids usually seem happy to be around me, always call me "Daddy", and we always tell each other "I love you". So I guess things could be worse, eh?

*sigh*

I just don't like this part. yes, I've got problems with predicitng the worst, only seeing negative things, and so forth. But here's the deal...

We've been negotiating, quite calmly, how much money she needs right now. Since her child support hecks come to our house, and since I've been able to deposit them into our account for the past 5-6 years, I would think it would be easiest just to keep doing that to have a bit more money to pay our bills. But she seems dead set on not going that route. The only option she'll consider is taking less money out of our account each week.

What concerns me, since I've already talked to a lawyer, is this. According to my lawyer, any taxable income (wages, etc.) is shared between us, no matter what account it's in. However, any money that isn't taxable income (gifts, child support) only becomes "joint poperty" when co-mingled with joint funds.

So, if she puts those child support checks into our account, that will become our money. But if she puts them into her account, than it can be seperated out as her money.

What concerns me is that a) since I only know that because I talked to a lawyer, I'd guess that she found out the same way, and b) if she is trying to keep certain funds seperate now (as opposed to how it's worked for the past 5-6 years), why?

Yes, I over-focus on things, especially negative things, especially trying to read others' minds. Hopefully, before Christmas, I'll be able to get onto a treatment program of some sort to help me out with some of these things.

Sorry, but this is a full weekend update that I just need to get out of my system...thanks in advance for reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Saturday: My father came over early in the morning, and we replaced the garage door opener with one that works! YAY! For several years, it would not work properly as the weather got colder. But over time, it has gotten worse and worse, to the point where it rarely even worked right in the middle of the summer. Turns out the motor was messed up, until we burned it out last weekend trying to figure out how to fix it.

Then I got cleaned up, and headed over to pick the kids up for the movie (Haunted Mansion). Just as I arrived, my wife got home from work. So we went in, gathered up the kids, and talked about pretty much nothing. I can't help but feel a bit hurt every time I see her and she's not wearing her wedding ring. But I suppose there could be a simple explanation for that, to go along with the horrible one that I seem to focus on (that it's an indication that she doesn't consider herself married). So when I was leaving, I was actually going to walk right by her to head out, and she sort of reached towards me for a hug, which was nice. I figure that, with her, the best I can do is to keep letting her know that I'm around if she wants to reach out to me, but not try to reach out to her at all, if that makes sense.

Anyway, the movie was good, and the kids really enjoyed it, especially since we're all fans of the ride. Afterwards, I took them over to my SIL's house (yes, my wife's sister) where they were spending the night (oldest babysitting all of the others). We got there almost an hour early, so I stayed for a while and talked about basic life things. One thing led to another, and eventually the topic of my individual and marital problems came up.

It made me feel really good that they would talk to me, since they are her family. They mentioned that they'd seen some of these things in me, but didn't feel it was their place to point out "my flaws". I can't help but wish that someone would have. But while talking about me, my BIL said, seemingly out of the blue "I'm worried about <WW>." I didn't ask exactly why, though I did say that I was worried too, worried that she was running away from what's going on instead of trying to work through it, and he just nodded his head.

So it made me feel good that they were not only friendly to me, but actually seemed more open than they used to be, and that they too were worried about what my wife was going through (I don't know what they know about the A. I didn't tell them anything, though BIL did bring up his other marriage where he had found his wife in bed with OM. So I'm not sure if he was just sharing, or fishing for a detail, or hinting that he knew something more...)

Sunday: Not much happened event-wise. We got snow, so I shoveled the driveway. I did a bit more "good cleaning", instead of our usual "run a duster over it once every few months" type of cleaning. All I really got done was one big window and a few other little things, but I cleaned them VERY good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The big news for Sunday, however, is that I decided to skip a day of my medication, just to get a better idea of how it was affecting me. It sure was weird. I was happier early in the day, because my thoughts seemed to flow more freely, allowing me to avoid getting "stuck" on a thought, which was almost always a negative thought. That was the good part...

The bad part was that, as a result, I found myself a lot more "sensitive" to things, over-reacting more and such. But even worse was that I noticed that the range of my emotions seemed wider. Higher highs and lower lows. Considering the "lowness" of my life situation right now, I really didn't like those lower lows . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So today, I'm back on my medication. Now I have a better idea of what it is and isn't doing, and that gives me the ability to better describe that to my therapist and doctor, so that we can come up with the best medications to get me through this time in my life.

Another long post from me...what a surprise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Thanks again just for being here everyone, it really does help me just knowing that people are out there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

UN:

Like in "Contact":

"Small steps, Sparks. Small steps."

The hug was good! You handled yourself well. Also, not getting involved with your BIL in a potentially WW-bashing discussion was a good thing. Relatives and inlaws CAN be good allys, but usually they don't really know how 2 handle these things well. I think the best thing you did was 2 show your inlaws a good plan A UN. You showed them that you're going 2 make a stand FOR your M.

-ol' 2long

Sounds just great! According to PLAN!

Don't stop taking your meds. I haven't been able to stop taking mine yet.

Try not to look at the ring finger. I taught myself to do this so well that when my FWH put his ring back on during recovery I didn't even notice. He had to mention it to me. Just a little tip for you!!!!

Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You're good coaches. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It sure is tough bottling this stuff up when I'm around her though. I guess that's why I'm trying to post my thoughts here so much. To "vent" so that I won't be so tempted to LB.

As for the ring...hmm...you're right. But she hadn't worn it for periods prior to D-Day, and I would mention it on occasion. I would tell her how it kind of upset and worried me when she didn't wear it. So she should know that I'll probably notice, and she should know how it'll make me feel.

Maybe I shouldn't take it so personally, but when she knows that I'll see something and that it'll hurt me, yet she does it anyway, I can only think two things. Either she doesn't care at all about how I feel, or she just plain wants to hurt me.

Bleh! Negatve thoughts are no fun! I want a medication to fix THAT! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

UN:

"Maybe I shouldn't take it so personally, but when she knows that I'll see something and that it'll hurt me, yet she does it anyway, I can only think two things. Either she doesn't care at all about how I feel, or she just plain wants to hurt me.
Bleh! Negatve thoughts are no fun! I want a medication to fix THAT! "

It's called the MB 2x4! And WE weild it 2 fix YOUR wagon, dude! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Remember the crass definition of "assume?" Now, employ "2long's 2nd pos2late:" Assume that your assumptions are wrong!

This isn't good for you. It's like snooping - yeah, it may be justified, but does it do you any good? Other than dangerously lower your pH, perhaps?

When things started 2 really improve between me and my FWW, I noticed that my assumptions were still getting the better of me when we were apart for any length of time, or when she'd get an email or phone call and come back in a mood. I could tell my assumptions were getting out of control because I was usually wrong, or even if I was right, I was letting that cloud the progress that we WERE making, thus stiflling it. The only thing that worked 2 get past THAT was 2 stop making assumptions. If I really need 2 know what she's thinking or what's going on, I have a responsibility 2 muster up the intestinal forti2de 2 ASK HER. Now, when we were in the messy state you're in right now, you have 2 be careful what you ask, lest you push her away (she'll infer pointed 2uestions as LBs). At the same time, you'll need 2 plant LUs in her $LB, and that will take some consistency - plan A - for her 2 believe you're sincere. When you get 2 that stage, you'll know. Don't ask me how, because I can't even put a finger on when we got there, but it's clear now.

-ol' 2long

Hi Uncomfortably Numb,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Yes, I over-focus on things, especially negative things, especially trying to read others' minds. Hopefully, before Christmas, I'll be able to get onto a treatment program of some sort to help me out with some of these things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've posted an exercise on emotional detachment that I think could really help you to pinpoint why it would be good for you to detach and how to do so. Detaching gives you control over your own emotions instead of reacting based on your W's foggy input.

Here's the link... emotional detachment

It really helped me immensely...although never specifically mentioned in MB, the ability to control yourself and stop LBing altogether in such an emotional provocative situation really depends on emotionally detaching from your WS.

best of luck...awed

P.S. You've made a few comments that led me to think that you can try using this tried and true MB phrase too...it worked very well for me as a reminder of what my real goal was (ie. not to get angry/resentful and LB)..."do you want to be right or do you want to be married?"...short, sweet, to the point...gets you back on track zippity quick.

So when thinking: why should I have to spend time with the kids when she decided to move out? You can answer yourself: do I want to be right or do I want to be married?

Another excellent set of responses. Thanks everyone. And awed, that's some good info. Now if only I could get an instruction manual on how to implement those ideas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

12/17/03: Well, WW called me yesterday morning to let me know she was going to be stopping by the house. Apparently, D #1 jammed her toe badly enough that they think it might be broken, so she wanted to come by ASAP to pick up the crutches, "and a few other things". Hmmm...

So, I told her I had a few questions, and she called me back after she had left her office and was on her cell phone.

1) I asked her about pictures to send to grandparents, if and when they'd be ready, and she said "Well, I guess I'd have to go get those taken, huh?" So I said that we could send them off afterward, but I needed to get this stuff shipped off right away.

>>>So, I made sure we got the gifts made for all of our grandparents. I'm making sure that they get packed up and sent off, for mine and her families. Meanwhile, she never even managed to get down to have the pictures taken. Grrr...

2) I asked about a gift idea i had for D #1. Because of the price, if I got that, it ould normally be "The Big Gift" for us. So I wanted to know how she felt about that. She agreed that it was a good gift idea, and that it should be given to her "From Mom & Dad".

>>>So at least we'll be giving them gifts from "us", instead of giving separate gifts. However, she still hasn't gone out and gotten anything at all for anyone yet, and there's only a week left! I think I may be doing all of it myself. At least that shows her my ability to be involved, make decisions, and stay strong about my thoughts and feelings, aka "stand up for myself"

3) I asked about Christmas Day. I said I'd like to spend some time with the girls, as would my parents. She told me that they'd be at her XH's on Christmas Eve and morning, and then he was going to bring them back in the morning. Then, she planned on going to her mother's house late in the afternoon once her mother gets off work. So we agreed that I would take the kids over to my parents house to visit from about 10am-2pm. I told her that she was welcome to join us, and she said she'd have to see how she felt.

>>>Well, at least we're closer to some concrete plans. We still have to figure out how the gifts that we'll have gotten will be given to the kids. If she's not at my parents, she won't see them open the gifts if they get them there. If they get them where she's living now, I won't get to see them being opened. Still some details to iron out, but better than being clueless.

4) After all of that, I asked her about the new Lord of the Rings movie. It's one we've both been really looking forward to. To make a long story short, I asked her if she'd like to go see it with me. She said not this week, but maybe this weekend. We hashed it out a bit more, and I said...
"Well, how about if we go out on Sunday afternoon to catch a matinee showing of it. And yes, in case you're wondering, I am asking you out on a date." To which she responded...
"Well, I'm not sure what work is like. I'll let you know."
After all of that and some other small talk, I ended the conversation by saying "I love you", and she answered with "I know".

>>>Oh well. I let her know I'm still here and still interested. I offered the opportunity for the two of us to spend some time together here there'd be little to no pressure on us. But the "I know" thing...heh...that irritated me in a way. Like how does she know? Maybe I stopped loving her since she left! How self-centered of her to "just know" that poor little me is sitting here still loving her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Now for the big issue that I need some quick advice on...

I noticed that, when she had come by the house, she had gone through her dresser. I could tell because I had just cleaned the bedroom, and I know that each drawer was closed nicely with all of the little handles laying down. Well, none of them were like that, so it was obvious. Of course, that's no big deal, since it is her dresser filled with her stuff.

But anyway, what I did notice is that she had taken just about all of her jewelry, almost all of which she had left behind when she moved out. But even worse, I saw that she had taken ALL of the credit cards, including every one with MY name on it (except for the one I carry with me).

Well, I'd like to know why! But I'm not sure if I should just let it go, and if not, how I should ask. You see, all of the ones she took were for accounts opened in HER name where I was just an additional card-holder, not a co-applicant. The one I carry with me is the opposite, opened in my name with her only an additional card-holder.

But still, why would she feel the need to collect her jewelry and every single credit card but one?

I feel like asking her if she'd like to have the one remaining credit card too. I feel like saying to her that it looks like she thinks that SHE can't trust ME. Yet SHE'S the one who's been lying and cheating and making very selfish choices lately. So who does she think she is acting like I'M not to be trusted?! It should be ME wanting control of all of that stuff, considering what she's been doing lately.

So help me out here, if you would please. Should I ask her about the jewelry and/or credit cards, and if so, how?

<small>[ December 17, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

UN:

I think you're doing great. Don't get 2 wrapped around the "I know" comment. My W said that a lot, 2. Worse, she didn't say ILY 2 ME for about 8 years. I was just 2 dense 2 realize what THAT meant. But it doesn't matter. There may come a day when she not only realizes that you've loved her in spite of all that she's doing, but that you will love her enough 2 let her go if that's what's best for her. THEN, she'll realize that she could LOSE your love. Right now she can't think 2 care.

I wouldn't make a big issue of the cards and jewelry, unless she can spend YOU dry by taking them.

This is a process, and you're doing a good job with it.

-ol' 2long

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

Ok, first of all, I need to stop snooping! It does no good! It just adds fuel to the fire, making me want to cause serious bodily harm!

So, how do you keep yourself from lashing out when you KNOW that there's still contact? When you KNOW that the A is still going as strong as ever?

GAWD I CAN"T STAND THIS!!!

So here I am, doing ALL of the work for Christmas. Getting all of the gifts that are going out of town taken care of, packed up, and shipped off. Getting all of the card done and mailed. Picking out the "big gifts" for the kids, buying them, and wrapping them.

All the while, my poor poor WW is just working too many hours to be able to do anything. Well, except that she's sent multiple gifts off, halfway across the country, to the OM!!!!!

Oh, and we've had one face-to-face meet in the past few days, and several emails sent back and forth dealing with Christmas issues. A few days ago, when leaving some mail in her car at work, I also left her a little box of chocolates.

I thought it was a nice little gesture. Let her know I was thinking about her, and so on. Well, that was Tuesday, and through all of that contact, she hasn't said ONE WORD about the gift. Not even a simple thank you!

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!

Right now, seriously, I hate my f*****g WW. If I didn't know I wasn't thinking clearly, I'd go file for Divorce as soon as I possibly could, and have the papers served to her for Christmas.

How do you like that gift b****?!!!

Sorry about the nastiness of my last post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Seriously, how do you folks get through the fact that your WS is showing no consideration, no caring, no interest, no remorse, nothing but selfishness, no matter how painful and/or destructive it is to everyone else around them?

I'm just disgusted by my WW. I can't think of anyone in the world that I dislike more. Heck, I think I'd rather be married to Saddam Hussein than to the creature that my WW is right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />