Dear Sarie,

Its hard for me to find words to say, so why am I here trying?

I just feel I have to say that I hope someday you will wake up to the way you are deluding yourself. I am not going to say your OM is a snake, or a liar or a user. Its not helpful to call names - but you cannot divorce what you do from who you are.

Your feelings for the other man and his for you, and your wonderful friendship are all "beautiful" only when looked at by the two of you, as if everything that happened in that little sphere happened in one of those snow bubbles, with all the powder snow swirling around you. You are totally oblivious to the fact that you exist in the world, and that your actions have an impact on everything and everyone around you.

You don't think so. You think this precious relationship is secret, holy and doesn't affect anyone except you and him.

In fact, it has already changed who you are as a person, and everything in your life is affected by it. Your life and all your relationships are one giant lie. You think you are a good grandmother, a good mother and a good wife. You are in fact a liar, and a sham. I think that you think you are going to get away with being a good liar. But you know what? Things have a way of unravelling. When I was 16, I found my mother's letters from her lover, hidden in a box in the very back of her cupboard. I only told her I had found them when I was 25. I forgave her only because my father had been rampantly unfaithful to her - she had a brief affair, which she ended because the dishonesty of it sickened her.

Your attitude - your justification of your affair is what sickens people, and will sicken your family. Coming clean, seeking help, and committing yourself to honesty is what others can find to love in you. Otherwise, you will continue to cause untold damage to your family.

Only another liar loves a liar.

And where am I coming from personally when I write this? My H had an affair with a MW, who is still his "best friend" 20 years later. He lived with her family - I don't believe any of her grown children know the extent to which their "special friendship" went. She is a pillar of her church community, as well. In many respects, I occupy the place of your H's new friend - the one he refuses to tell "the whole truth". I think this "special friendship" that my H had with MW is one of the main sources of our marital problems - it crippled him for life, emotionally.

I ask you, if you really love your friend, would you cut off his legs? How about, would you cut out his heart and keep it in a box so that you could take it our and admire it? That is exactly what you have done and are doing to him - crippling him for life and keeping his heart for yourself, selfishly, so that he is unable to have a full and happy life with anyone else. You call this love?

I call it the worst kind of selfishness imaginable. Everyone who is looking into your little snowball can see it.

Wake up and live, Sarie, before your life is over - you can still save yourself, and your family, and your self-respect, but lying to yourself and everyone else is not the way to health and happiness.

With all best wishes and hopes for your future, Sarie, and I mean that. I have no bad wishes for anyone. When I see someone do what you are doing, my heart hurts for what you are doing to yourself and everyone involved with you.

LIR

Originally posted by Sarie:

If your spouse, though, shares feelings with you such as I just did about my OM, don't be like Pepper and tell them how bad they are for feeling the way they do

My issue with you is NOT your feelings. You own your feelings 100%.

My issue with you is the fact that you are dishonest and lack integrity.

Your feelings can never be judged, just your behavior.

Pep

If I send this NO CONTACT letter to the OM, is it too wishy washy?
What wording should be changed?
Sarah

Darling (OM's name)...I have been doing a lot of thinking lately.
Now that you are with Linda your emotional needs and your sexual needs are being fulfilled by her.
I am no longer needed by you in the same way I was needed for so many many years.
It is not fair for either of us to keep holding on when we should be letting go!

I have been advised over and over by some new friends at a marriage improvement board, that total NO CONTACT with the person I had an affair with, is the only way!
I know it is the only way my marriage can heal and it will be best for you also as you are starting a new life with Linda.

I am the same little Sarah that I have always been; I love you the same and as much as always.. I will miss you until the day I die, just as I know you will miss me!
We had a wonderful and beautiful 10 year love affair (to our eyes only, not the world's) but it is time to say goodbye and stop trying to hang on to the fantastic memory.

YOU BELONG TO SOMEONE ELSE NOW, just as I ALWAYS HAVE!

P.S. Let me know what you think, my precious friend.

I just re-read that.

Friends, you just don't know how that tears my heart out to send that to him.
I am sitting here weeping!
So many years, so many conversations, gone and over and never to be again.

You just can't understand unless you have been in my situation.
It is like losing a major part of my life!

This may be how your WS felt about giving up the OP!

Sure it was wrong to get involved with him but I did, and now he is such a part of my heart.
God help me to be the wife I need to be again before I met HIM.

I do agree with you guys that if I am refusing to tell my husband, I should AT LEAST stop all contact with the OM.
Love, Sarah

Sarie:

If I sound upset or angry with you, please try 2 understand that my FWW had a 12-yr A with Rat Meat (my derrogatory nickname for her OM, who might be a nice guy, for all I know - once he does the right thing and takes a stab at restoring HIS integrity). It's been almost 2 years since D-day for me. I found out, she didn't confess. We've had alternating rough and heavenly times 2gether since D-day. I would not wish the experience on anyone, but will say, at the same time, that it is a very intense growth experience. But it can't be if you don't end the A and go public with your loved ones. Don't die with your lack of integrity "intact."

As for your draft NC letter:

"Darling (OM's name)...I have been doing a lot of thinking lately."

Remove "darling". You need 2 END CONTACT, not give him things 2 hang on2 for the rest of his life.

"Now that you are with Linda your emotional needs and your sexual needs are being fulfilled by her."

His R with Linda is none of your business.

"I am no longer needed by you in the same way I was needed for so many many years."

GROAN. This is the WRONG MESSAGE. You need 2 say something like "Our relationship was selfish and completely inappropriate."

"It is not fair for either of us to keep holding on when we should be letting go!"

Replace with something like "I will not contact you again and will not respond 2 any attempts by you 2 contact me."

"I have been advised over and over by some new friends at a marriage improvement board, that total NO CONTACT with the person I had an affair with, is the only way!"

Just tell him that you will have no further contact with him. Don't give him a "handle" 2 try 2 keep contact going - by disagreeing with "us" as a conversation starter, for example.

"I know it is the only way my marriage can heal and it will be best for you also as you are starting a new life with Linda."

You should urge him 2 be completely honest with Linda, if you say anything at all about his R with her (probably you shouldn't address it at all, his dishonesty is his problem).

"I am the same little Sarah that I have always been; I love you the same and as much as always.. I will miss you until the day I die, just as I know you will miss me!
We had a wonderful and beautiful 10 year love affair (to our eyes only, not the world's) but it is time to say goodbye and stop trying to hang on to the fantastic memory."

This is utter garbage, and should be removed in its entirety!

"YOU BELONG TO SOMEONE ELSE NOW, just as I ALWAYS HAVE!"

Take out the part about him, leave in the part about you. Talk about your H and your kids. Talk about your commitment and responsibility 2 them, NOT 2 him.

"P.S. Let me know what you think, my precious friend."

This is nonsense. You can't get NC by asking for a reply. Don't say "precious" anywhere, unless there's a price on his head and you intend 2 collect the bounty! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sarie, on 2nd thought, I think you should DV your H, setting him free of this "10-yr farce" of a marriage, and go marry your OM. You'd be saving Linda from spending her final years with a liar in the process.

I wish you well, you're going 2 need it.

2long, signing off.

sarie, you are a walking, breathing tragedy. my heart breaks for you with each word you write, with each cruel thought you have.

Ok folks - let's focus a little on what I was trying to do here.

Sarie - I shared a story with you about my friend for a specific reason. She did not address her A with her "true love" and because of that, she neither addressed what was wrong in her M, nor safe-guarded herself from further A's and upset. The result, 2 possibly 3 further A's one which led to her being discovered by my BF (still hopeful here gang <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) which has now in essence a) ruined her M b) ruined her R with her best friend and c) ruined another friendship for both her and her H.

One A where she loved (as you claim to do Sarie), had these devasting consequences. She would not tell, even though I begged and begged her. She never thought she would have 1 A, let alone numbers 2, 3, and 4. Sarie, when OM moves on with Linda and leaves you still longing for your past "happiness", and the things in your M are still missing, and you no longer have contact with OM, and then along comes another "precious" friend, and all of a sudden, he's so understanding and bingo!!!!! The cycle is possible to start again.

Listen to 2Long Sarie - his W had a 12 year A - goodness me, don't you think others out there understand or haven't been in that position?

You asked me - I truly thought I loved OM. We had no angry words, he just stayed put with his W and 4 children after d-day. And so he should have done. We had NC for nearly a year and then he got back in touch. It was DEVASTING for me. I cannot begin to explain how much worse withdrawal was the second time around. Then he disappeared again. If you want to search on some of my old posts, you will see that I cared for him - but you know what. In all that time, I never knew if I loved my XH or not. The reality is, I was probably involved in an exit A for many reasons. XH lived abroad for 2 years, was manipulative and abusive. It is still no excuse for an A. BTW I am *over* X, but I still think about OM fondly. He gave me many things. He was also a liar and a cheat, and if he ever banged on my door again, I'd tell him to s*d off, because I will not allow my personal recovery to be put in jeopardy. I don't sometimes know if I will ever be "over" OM or not, but I know for sure, NC is the only hope I have of moving forward with my life. Contact remains, and you continue your secret special bond.....

You though Sarie claim to love your H. I don't believe you do, because if you did, you would at least follow NC. You my dear, are having a laugh at his expense, every single day. Your attemped NC letter - well forgive me for being harsh, but it was pathetic. It wasn't NC it was a love letter, trying to persuade him to stay in his R.

Now, a couple of Qs for you....

1. What would you do if you discovered your H had an A?
2. How would he feel if he was still in touch with that person and called her "precious" and "special dear friend" etc. and talked about sex with her
3. If you were Linda, how would you feel to know that the man you are pledging to spend the rest of your life with is actually still emotionally involved with some women who he has been sh**ging for 10 years who is M? (listen Sarie, have a little thought here about sister-hood)
4. Can you please look at my original post to you and think about that and comment about it other than to say my friend is promiscuous. What does that story mean to you, why could it not happen to you?

There are many here better placed to give other advice, but I ask you these questions.

I am going away tomorrow for a few days, so won't be around much. Sarie, I really think you should consider why you come to MB. It seems that nothing anyone says to you makes any sense. I only forsee much more pain for you, and that makes me so very sad.

Take care

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Sarie:
<strong> I just re-read that.
You just can't understand unless you have been in my situation.
It is like losing a major part of my life!
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been in your situation, so yes I do...

You have absolutely no idea how much better off your life could be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Susan

Sarah,
You are so deep in the fog that you can't see things the way they are. I know that I have felt alot like you describe. I used to drive around and cry begging God to help me get my old self back. So.....you can't be very happy. And you are prolonging your own agony for sure.

I thought my marriage was pretty much hopeless and even though there is room for improvement, we have come along way in this past year. If you are going to stay married then you will be miserable until you make the effort to improve your marriage. You husband can't do anything cause he doesn't know that something is desperatly wrong! If you can't do that, then maybe you shouldn't stay married.

It is not going to be easy....you will suffer from withdrawal, but it seems pretty obvious that you are suffering from something worse now.

If you aren't ready to take action (and it took me a while too) then at least keep reading and posting here. Maybe one day in the near future you will be able to 'see' and think more clearly. This message board helped me come out of the fog. Diane

Thank you Diane (and the others that wrote.)

Please pray for me that I WILL COME OUT OF THIS FOG and become the woman I was before the affair!Oh, never the same, but hopefully one that sees the light, finally!

I should be SO THANKFUL that my OM found another lady and has set me free from feeling I had to be there for him because I was SO NEEDED .

I have a good way out now and I should run like the dickens away from him and feel released from his hold that he has had on my heart, for so many years!

I know many of you think your words are going in one ear and out the other, but I am listening and retaining what you are telling me.
I give your messages a lot of thought as I go about my day and I do appreciate it;
each of you that have taken the time to help me get back on the right road!
I really want to!
Love, Sarah

Susan, will you please share more of your thoughts about your life?

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Sarie ]</small>

Sarie,

Since you mentioned in many post about your church members, I felt compelled to add to this post.

At 1 Cor 6:9,10 it mentions:
"What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom."

Of course this scripture is talking about persons who practice such things. But it does show that by practicing adultery and being greedy, a person could miss out on the Kingdome of God. And there is nothing worth missing out on that grand prize. No things, person, amount of money, or whatever. Sometimes we have to sacrifice in this life order to receive the grander blessing later. Just my 2-cents.

Sarie I was an alcoholic for 10 years [from age 15 to 25, I've been sober for 20 years now] and during those 10 years I thought I could control my addiction to alcohol by 'educating' myself and learn how to drink. You know what? it was a bunch of crap for I found myself drinking 'responsibly' a few times then WHAM! I would be back to 3 day drinking binges. Abstinence and confessing to friends and family about my alcoholism (as well as AA) were the answer to end my self destructive cycles for I know that I would not be alive today without them.

Sarie, your future depends on abstinence from the OM (through NC) AND confessing to your H about your affair. No it's not going to be easy or painless but if you don't then your addiction will continue unabated and it will completely destroy you and that indeed would be tragic.

Sarie - why did you ignore my questions? Were they too painful to contemplate?

So many people here want to help you and you still come here, and I'm not sure why.

Lisa

tmcm ... first, congratulations on your ongoing alcoholism recovery.

along those lines, i have a friend who is a recovering junky. he and i were talking about marriage builders several months ago. his first comment was how similar the approach is to aa.

CM - sorry meant to comment on that too as Whippit. I never knew that about you - we learn something new every day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thank you for sharing your story. I hope that Sarie can appreciate your doing that.

Wishing you well as ever
Lisa

LISA"S QUESTIONS:

1. What would you do if you discovered your H had an A?
2. How would he feel if he was still in touch with that person and called her "precious" and "special dear friend" etc. and talked about sex with her
3. If you were Linda, how would you feel to know that the man you are pledging to spend the rest of your life with is actually still emotionally involved with some women who he has been sh**ging for 10 years who is M? (listen Sarie, have a little thought here about sister-hood)
4. Can you please look at my original post to you and think about that and comment about it other than to say my friend is promiscuous. What does that story mean to you, why could it not happen to you?

Lisa, those questions are almost impossible to answer. Could you answer them?
Of course I would be devastated and heart-broken with question one and two. (Just am my husband would be if he found out about my affair.)

And question 3 is not really for ME to answer except I will say, maybe Linda will be second place in his heart but she is probably not the first woman that has had to take that position; they will be fine, especially if he and I go NO CONTACT.
And probably one day soon she will be first place in his heart...They get along great!

Question 4, I did re-read your message and your friend isn't me...I am NOT going to have another affair anymore than you are , Lisa?

These questions are almost like if before our 18 yr. old son died in a car accident, someone would have asked me how I could live without him...My answer would have been, I couldn't.
But here I am still alive and of course still missing him every day BUT God gave us the Grace to handle it when it happened, just as He gives us Grace to handle all difficult situations.

I was asked about my belief. I was saved as a little girl and have been involved with church all my life...I have been a VERY moral lady. (Was a virgin when we got married, at age 18, 35 years ago)
It wasn't until the OM that I took a 'Secret Detour' in my life.
Hopefull I can get back on the right road again.
You all are really helping.
Love, Sarah

Too much coffee man.
Thanks for sharing that about your alcohol addiction.

My OM was addicted to alcohol until 1980.
Hasn't had a drink since.
He lost his family because of it.

He became a wonderful caring man, a good son to his aging parents but lost his children's respect.

So sad.
Love affairs are a similar addiction.
Hard to get over and always a recovering lover!
Sarah

Sarie,

The NC letter in Surviving An Affair is the best way to go. At the time my husband sent his NC letter we hadn't found MB. Unfortunately our NC letter apparently mislead OW because she continued to try to contact my husband for over 1 1/2 years.

This letter straight from SAA says it all - I'm putting it in this post.

(OM), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my (wife/husband) and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (spouse) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (spouse) for the pain I have caused (him/her), I will do my best to become the (husband/wife) (he/she) has been mising. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship, Sincerely (You).

The end. Honestly Sarie, this book is extraordinary. It deals with WS in a non-judgmental way and will help you deal with your feelings. You will see how "textbook" you are and that you aren't alone. Find a way to read it. It will do you a world of good. CSue

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

Well, just keep thinking about whether you can answer Q3 - wouldn't you just feel awful if you knew the truth and were just about to commit yourself to someone? You know what, I would. I couldn't imagine being "second place" in any man's heart. I would certainly not accept that if I knew the truth, and you are foolish not to think of her (a complete innocent too) in all this. It's the old boot on the other foot routine. You admit you can answer Qs 1 & 2, but you can't imagine being Linda, because you are not M'd or emotionally involved with her - you are of course with your H.

I also think that because you have done *nothing* to fundamentally change your behaviour around your A, you are liable to a second or even third A. You are liable to get back with OM, and then Linda's life will become even more wrecked. Not because you are promiscuous or easy.

I know that I never would, because I witnessed the devasation and destruction of what the truth of the A was about after d-day. All you are left with are warm fuzzy feelings of *love*. I am left with the anger, the pain, the phone smashed in the face, the Police arresting X and cautioning him with harrassment. I am left being single (and better off in many ways, but that is another story <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). I'm left totally examining why I would choose to behave in such a destructive fashion, because after all, I was in love with OM and does that make it all OK? You are absolutely ripe to have another A. Actually, I am now single, so I can choose to be with whomever I want, but they certainly would not be M'd. Nothing in your behaviour has changed that would *stop* you from having a second A. Ask any of the old-timers here who will tell you that I am a fundamentally different person than the Lisa who arrived in August 2002. I could continue on, but you get my drift. That was the point of the story - my friend did not examine herself, did not come clean, did nothing to protect herself or change her M to make it a happy and fulfilling one. Neither have you.....

OK, I have to run. I won't be around for a while. Sarie, know that I do this, not because I am a better person than you. Not because I know more than you. Not because I loved OM less than you. I do this because my opinions are based firmly in the months of turmoil and pain that my A caused, months of soul searching, intensive therapy and the support of this board. It is done because I am truly concerned for your well being.

Please take care and please start to be more honest with yourself.

Lisa

<small>[ December 18, 2003, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Sarah,

Please don't romantisize poisonous serpents - I'm not talking about the man now; I'm talking about the secrets, the fog, the "always hold a place in your heart" kind of b.s.

If you want a nauseating read along an extreme version of yours, do a search for "JebStuart" or OLGJMJ on the "in recovery" board. You sound just like an extreme version of OLG -

You need to be nauseated. Very nauseated right now. Because your feelings are going to kill you and your husband spiritually and relationship-wise. The only antidote to the slow marital death you are both suffering right now is radical, rigorous honesty - expose the secret.