I am a 33 yr. old, male my wife is 30. We have 3 children. I have a 15 yr. old daughter from a previous marriage, and we have two boys together. 8 yrs. old and a 3 yr. old. We have been married for almost 6 years now. I have been self employed our entire marriage. When our 3 yr. old was born we made the decision as a couple that she would quit working and we would make the neccassary sacrifices to enable her to stay home with our kid. My business was doing very well at the time so, it was a sound decision. This was something absolutely against her grain, because she is so independent. Well once the business went south and things got out of control, rather then step up to the plate and fullfill her emotional and finacial needs I sunk into a deep depression. I lost all motivation, I lost the desire to go forward. I only did enough to barely get by. The finacial stress ripped her apart. She was screaming out for me to fix what was broken. I did'nt hear her. I ignored her pain, and her needs. I stopped taking care of myself. I gained a ton of weight, I stopped keeping up with my personal hygeine, I was a mess. In my mind I was the victim and I complained about her lack of sex drive when we were sinking in debt, I wasn't doing anything about it but walking around the house, fat and out of shape, unkept, farting, and laying on the bed saying make love you to me. She reached a point last Sunday where she gave me the enough is enough/I love you but I'm not in love with you speech. She is the type of women that takes alot, puts up with alot but once she makes her mind up that she's finish. She is finished. I made some immediate changes. I recommitted my life to Christ! I'm starting from scratch with my business, I'm motivated again, and I'm optimistic again. She is not interested in even considering reconcilliation. She talks in terms of me getting myself together for me and the kids. She is in complete withdrawal. My immediate strategy was to just get myself together because we still live under the same roof. She would see my positive changes as positives and give our marriage another try. She sees my changes as manipulation. Trying to get my way. She doesn't think it's real. She said I'm the boy that cried wolf! to many times. I have been working and giving her money everyday and trying to maintain a positive outlook. Get myself together, for me and the kids. She is by far the best thing that has ever happened to me, I took her for granted for so long, that she is in such pain that she can't begin to allow herself to trust me. How do I get her to open up and give me one last opportunity. She sees that as equivalent to going backwards. She associates that with pain. We have two beautiful little boys that love us both that deserves a happy family. I know I did all the damage with neglect, but I want to fix it. She won't let me get close enough to fix it. Whenever she talks it about the future when we live apart, and how fun we are going to make it for the kids by being such good friends. I know this didn't get bad oveernight so I know I'll have to be patient, and positive for a prolonged period of time. The negative comments, and the quotes like "I will never be married to anyone again ever." and "Get over me get on with your life, because I will never go backwards again ever" are taking a toll on me. It's hard for me to complain because I put her through hell for months and here I am after 6 days *****ing about how she won't let me inside her armor. How do I get inside? The more I try the farther she moves away? How do you reach a person who seems content to end a marriage? I can make her happier then she has ever been in her entire life if given the chance. How do I get that chance? I've read that she is at a stage called absolute withdrawal. How do I get her from there? How do I start to make love deposits when she not interested in accepting any deposits?

dcope:<BR>She is going off old scripts - based on how you acted in the past. You cannot expect her to immediately respond to changes made in 6 days. She needs time to "see" you again. Every day she is living with you gives you the opportunity to show her that you have changed. Please read Dr Harley's material. Get his books, read the posts here - they will help you. <BR>My H gave me the I don't love you speech a week before Christmas. He also is a person who makes up his mind and follows through. He said he was moving out! I was devastated. But I found this site and really looked hard at myself. I made immediate changes in areas H indicated were important. I began counseling with Steve Harley (expensive, but worth every penny). I have begun to see baby steps forward in our relationship. But it has taken 8 weeks and these are only baby steps - BUT I HAVE HOPE, I know my changes must be sustained - H must see these are not a flash in the pan. So you too need to give it time. I know you are in a panic that she will leave - hang tough. Get in shape, pull your business together (are you sure this is what her needs are?) identify what love busters you have and get rid of them. WORK!!!<BR>Do not expect any positive response from her. Feelings can change. Be the best husband and father (but you need to find out how to do that - don't guess)<BR>I am a novice in this process, but there are many people on this board who give great advice. Read - learn - change - you can do it. I will be looking for your posts. 8 weeks ago I thought my world had ended - now there is a possibility of togetherness - but even if things do not work out I am becoming a much better person - so the work is an end in itself.<BR>

ihope,<BR>I sincerley appreciate your comments. I have made some concrete changes. I have recommitted my life to Christ. I have lost weight already but mostly because the only thing I've eaten since Sunday night was about 3 bowls of soup. I have absolutely no appetite. The hard part is that we live in the same house. I sleep on the coach and I can't grab and hold her, or tell her how much I love her because she is so removed mentally and emotionally from the marriage. I'm making changes but some how even though I know the changes are in my best interest it still seems half empty. I drove her to work yesterday and on the way out the car she slipped and out of routine said "I love you". Then she caught her self and said "ohh". That tells me that there is something there. How salvagable? I don't know. I was on the couch asleep when she came home last night and she went out of her way to bring me a pillow. These are positives I think. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking. However I'm refocused in my business, actually I'm starting from scratch. I think I need to just focus on going forward and maintaining a committment towards the changes I need to improve and grow as a person. If I do that and she sees that my changes are forever, and that I love her, and am committed to saving or marriage, and family then maybe we have a chance. I have never been this long without touch, affection or sex. So I'm growing I guess. I miss the snuggling and cuddling. Boy did I ever take that for granted. Keep me in your prayers, and hopefully this thing gets either easier to deal with or better soon.

I can only answer as a woman that has been going through the ignoring stage myself. It is getting better through counseling and I am seeing changes in myself also. I can only tell you what works for me, but maybe it could be a blueprint for you to find out what works with your W.<P>Have you tried apoligizing to her and telling her your feelings and what a wonderful woman she is?<P>Have you commented on how beautiful she is to you?<P>Have you thanked her for going through all of the things she has gone through during your period of failing?<P>Have you tried setting up and evening with her? You get the babysitter and surprise her with an evening of romance. I love that one <P>Have you tried little notes around the house reconfirming your feelings for her?<P>Have you tried little comments on a daily basis - like "you look really nice in that outfit", "you have such a pretty smile"<P>Have you watched her and when she asked what you were looking at - do you say "you and how beautiful you are and how lucky I am to have you in my life"?<P>These are some of the things that I adore and I think that most women would. Be sure they are sincere statements though or you will get accused of lying.<P>Take care and god bless and I am praying for you.<P>Ally

This is a very sensitive stage. She is on the brink of being irretrievable.<P>#1. NO LOVEBUSTERS. Read everything you can about that.<P>#2. Only try meet her EN's that she is open to have you meet. More important is the no lovebusting.<P>#3. You have no right to have any of your EN's met. Take them off the calendar. Your job is to earn your way back. Be grateful for what you had and have.<P>Sexual fulfillment is likely going to be the most sticky confusing part of this. (I've learned a lot more about the do's and don'ts here from Promised Forever and Mike C2.) <P>a. If she doesn't want to be touched, don't touch. Even if she has a very high need for SF. <P>b. If she does want informal, nonsexual caresses, be careful. Give them very carefully.<P>c. If you know she has a signifcant need for SF, all you can do is "marketing." <BR>* Lose all the fat. Meanwhile -<BR>* Dress great. Wear what she likes to see you in, but be sharp and stylish. Don't wait until you are back in shape to dress well.<BR>* Bathe/shower once or twice a day and pay meticulous attention to all matters of grooming - nose hairs and fingernails, as well as the cologne, hair and beard styling, etc. <BR>* Eat low-gas foods or take Beano and Gas-X.<BR>* No garlic or raw onions.<BR>* Give her your best flirting efforts and words of affirmation/affection/admiration.<P>d. No actual sex until she initiates AND takes the lead.<P>I hear a little bit of hope. But you have a steep uphill battle. Get ready. CHARGE!!!

dcope:<BR>be very careful!!! your comment about not being able to grab and hold her set me on alert ----- do not do this. This is a need you have to be reassured that everything will be alright - it is your need, not hers - so be careful. I know exactly how you are feeling and you can destroy any advances made by letting your "taker" out. Before the "announcement" I didnt really think very much about making love with my husband -after 15 years, it just was there. But now - I am hypersexed!!! I can't get enough -but he is not ready to give me this. Weird, huh? how we work.<BR> You need a plan. Try to determine what her top EN are and what love busters you have. Physical appearance may or may not be the most important to her - if it is not that important, you should be putting your energies toward what is. A plan (write it out - what you are trying to accomplish, how you will do it and how you will measure your progress ) post it if you need assistance.<BR>There are powerful reasons to stay together - but you have to show her that you mean it.<BR>you can do it. keep posting, we will help each other.

Over the course of the last few days we have had some very serious conversations. Here is the bottom line. How do you make her understand that the changes I made are forever. She has said that we are getting along so good right now that she would never want to jeopardize it by trying to get back together. I'm making changes so that she sees I'm in this thing for the long haul , and it's backfiring on me. She sees my change as positive, but in her mind it's better like this then it was when we were together. I can't win for losing!!!

Dont push her. Concentrate on the changes you are making without pressuring her to see them right away. <P>The good news is that you are still living under the same roof. You have an ample opprtunity to learn and grow. <P>

I am being as loving and considerate as a person can be. She says that I'm being overly nice and it's making her feel guilty. She says that she just wants to be as civil as possible living in the same house, but she is not ready to ever consider working things out. I'm struggling with this love from a distance program. What do I do? How do I do it? It's starting to get frustrating for her because she says my moods change when she does not return the love and flirtations. I do get frustrated because I'm trying so hard to get her to understand that I LOVE HER more then life it's self. How do you wake up every morning on the coach and look at the most beautiful woman I have ever met a not feel compelled to just hug her to death? I want to withdraw. I need to be able to handle this better then what I'm doing. We seem too find ourselves in these deep conversations every other day or so. They always end the same way. Her saying "If I get back together it will be for the kids, and you." "It would not be for me." I don't know what to do anymore. Would I be better off moving out? Would absence make the heart grow fonder? Will she ever come around and realize that we can be very happy together? I'm not a very patient person, but I am trying to grow. Please someone help me!!!!!!!!!!! I'm lost. Do I stop telling her how much I love her? Do I stop doing the little nice things that I didn't used to do? How do I act around her? Smiling, and acting like I'm happy when I'm not is very hard for me. That goes back to the honesty issue. Tommorrow will be the 2 week mark since we last made love. I have not gone 7 days without sex since my 16th birthday. I'm 33 now. This is foreign territory for me. I love this woman enough to try to make it work, if it can. My way of dealing with heart ache in the past is replacing them with one more beautiful. (That does work!) However the problem is it get's harder and harder each time. I am married to the most beautiful woman I've seen in years. literally. I screwed up and don't know how to fix it. Help PLEASE!!! I don't wan tto manipulate I just want her to reengage slowly so she can see I will never hurt her, disrespect her, or lie to her again. I will spend the rest of my life honoring and loving her the way she deserves.

2 weeks is nothing. It is nothing! I know it seems an eternity to you and you wish it was over, but you need to change.<BR>You can do this - but it will not be a miracle. do not move out.<BR>read Dr Harley's material and start working.<BR>It seems clear that physical things are a love buster to her right now. back off.<BR>Telling her you love her, deep converstions about change don't mean anything -ACTIONS!!!<BR>Are you working out? do you have a structured meal plan? what are your goals and action plan to get your business going? are you dressed neatly all the time? Don't be desperate, be upbeat, pleasant. Its not fun being around someone who is a downer. Have you asked her to fill out the EN survey, the LB survey? stop whinning and work....it will make a difference!!!!!<BR>Put that taker away (you may not get sex from her for a long time - can you handle that? or ????

Dcope, I am in a similar situation to yours as far as winning back the love of W. Just want you to know I have been in Plan A 6 months. Do not expect to have it happen over night but be grateful for every little battle won. In two weeks you have recovered further with your W than I did in 3 months. Do not get discouraged, the longer she sees the changes the more they become evident that they are changes.<P>Hang in there and do not lose sense of your taker. You are delegated to the giver to help her out of withdrawal...

Thanks Ihope,<BR>I just needed to hear some positive feedback. I'm on track. I just get frustrated because I don't know how to respond to her rejection. She keeps intiating these deep conversations and I end up pitching her that I'm a new person that loves her and wants a chance. I don't want to talk because talking depresses me because I know I'm not going to get the responses I want. So being this happy go lucky person is so hard when your so sad at the mess I've made of my marriage. I can handle the lack of sex. It's not easy but hey worse thing are happening in the world. I need direction in how to be around her. Upbeat and happy? Positive and loving? I've been very quiet but supportive. I help he every chance I can. She is very thankful, and tries to limit all the nice things I do because she feels guilty. She says it makes her feel like she owes me something. I say I'm just treating you the way I should have been treating you all along. Last night she said that she wish I would have been like the way I am now 3 weeks ago. I felt like crap. I just smiled and walked away and beat myself up. How could I be so stupid? Do I avoid talking or is it good that she still wants to talk and discuss the past? Do I avoid talking about reconcilliation, and positve change, and how much I love her? Please give me some insight into this realm. This is by far the hardest thing I have ever done. Keep me in your prayers because I need them. I'm still losing weight from the stress diet. I force myself to eat a can of soup every evening because other then that I have no appetite. I dress as nice as I can. It's funny because people around her keep commenting on how nice I've been looking lately and she seems proud from a distance.

"So being this happy go lucky person is so hard when your so sad at the mess I've made of my marriage."<P>- yes - this is hard!!! because you cant act like nothing is wrong - I struggle with this too! You need to internalize that YOU have caused her loss of love - therefore YOU can get it back. I firmly believe this (although each day is work) It is all YOU for now. (((caution: once she does start to soften up - do not go back to your old ways - it is very easy to get lulled ...)<P>When she initiates the deep converstations - you could try apologizing again for your thoughtlessness and then ask her to help you become a better husband and father by completing the LB survey (you can print it off the main page of this site). I am working wtih Steve and getting my H to do this was an eyeopener for me. Although very painful to read that my "style" was offensive to him, I am working daily on improving these "defects". Everthing he pointed out, if fixed, will make me a better person. So, too, with your wife - finding out what you do that bothers her and fixing them will go a long way.<BR>I am seeing progress - but some of my defects are very deep and will take time to correct. But if he sees my efforts - sometimes I think that is enough....(well, sometimes) <P><BR>"It's funny because people around her keep commenting on how nice I've been looking lately and she seems proud from a distance."<P>see - she is "seeing you" keep it up <P>But you must get a food plan that will work long term - you will not be able to stay on the soup diet and do all the things you need to do. Are you exercising? Since it sounds like you were wallowing in despair before her announcement - are you now full of purpose each day? Most people are drawn toward those who appear to have it together - <BR>keep working, keep us posted<BR>good luck<BR>and remember: every day she is with you is a great day. Be a good father too.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>She keeps intiating these deep conversations and I end up pitching her that I'm a new person that loves her and wants a chance. I don't want to talk because talking depresses me because I know I'm not going to get the responses I want.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You need to tell her that men have a more limited capacity to stand up to an unpleasant conversation from a spouse than a woman does. That doesn't mean she can't have it with you, but you will need a 1/2 hour break whenever your heart rate exceeds 95.<P>She has some things she wants to say. I don't think she's ever getting to finish. That's frustrating her, and making her believe there is little that can be done because you won't hear everything that's there. If you can do the 1/2 hour breaks, she can get it all out, and you won't blow off the conversation or stonewall on her, or blow up at her. <P>Then you might find some nuggets that you can respond appropriately to, and some positive ways to move forward. <P>Good luck.<P>

dscope:<BR>I hear you loud and clear..I can only give you suggetions from a woman's point of view..My h was wonderful for 18 years..then something happened, we grew apart for tow year..He picked up an OW and things got progressively worse..My suggestion is to keep trying. I have put up so much from him, friends tell me to leave him. He is so abusive to me emotionally. I give him everything he wants..i get nothing in return..sex is one sided..Nothing for me..well, he is down to his lastbit of hope..he has gone to counseling..maybe you should think about that. Don't chase her..i have chased him and thought we were in the right direction for 8 months. he never let me in..I gave him my heart..he gave me a quarter.. Do something good for yourself..get a massage..how about taking her..double massages in the same room...it makes for some nice pillow talk...Good Luck

I started working out this morning. I'll jog every morning after prayer and before the shower. Things are very nice, between us. I'm dying inside but come across as happy and upbeat and positive. This couch is getting smaller and smaller, but I'm dealing. You know she keeps calling me honey, and babe and my heart skips a beat every time but I maintain my composure and just smile. I'm avoiding discussions about the future or the past, just trying to be a better person and a better father, and hopefully I'll get a opportunity to be a better husband. I really appreciate the feedback I've recieved from this board. it really helps because rather then obsessing about this situation, I have somewhere to vent and learn. Don't get me wrong I can't wait until I don't have to post for help, I will be happy to post to give help.

Do I only show affection when she intiates it? I'm very queit because I don't know what to say or how to act. I always conversate when she talks to me, but I rarely start a conversation because I don't know what to say. Again the happy everything is peachy routine is very difficult. I think I'm spending to much time worrying about her and what is going to happen. Is this possible? Can I continue to be supportive and loving as the occassion presents itself while disengaging in my reconcilling hopes? I'm really stuck on the how to continue. Talking doesn't get me anywhere and me changing is like a slow boat to China. I think I'm just a spoiled brat that can't handle not getting my way! Tommorrow will be 2 weeks. I can't imagine 2 months or 2 more weeks even. Would it be easier if I moved out? The looking at her and dealing with her treating me like a brother is agonizing. I'm on track. I'm not love busting anymore, I'm losing weight, I'm nice as pie and she sees it. The problem is I'm the type of person that thrives off of positive feedback. If I can see signs it's working I can maintain, but the hard part here is I'm getting no where. Help again please!

You are doing GREAT!!! Be real careful not to point out your changes to W. That is a lovebuster because it proves you just putting on an act, it isn't real, and as soon as you are comfortable you will go back the oldstyle love busting dcope who ignores her EN's!<P>How long did it take your marriage to get into this fix? How quickly do you expect to dig out? You should expect it to take some time in proportion to the time it was being actively damaged.<P>We can give somewhat more pointed help if we knew what your W's personality and EN's are. Have you checked out <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> yet? Have you read myohmy's current thread about winning back a withdrawn spouse? There are many current threads on this with TONS of great insight. Can you be more specific in your question? Or do you want more words of affirmation, strokes, praise, admiration ....<P>Here they are: You are wonderful! She is so lucky to have a committed husband who is willing to turn his life around to please her. I wish my H would talk about things like you do. Keep up the good work, and keep the Our Relationships talks on hold for a few weeks at least.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{dcope}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I'll pray for you too.<P>Love,<P>Karenna

Kareena,<BR>I am a ESTP, she is a INFJ. What I need to know is how do I go about the day to day struggle? Do I just work on my self and let her see my changes and hope that she says hey maybe this is worth a try? Do I smother her with affection, compliments and nice acts, hoping she see's the light? I've read plan A and it sounds more like a blue print of how to fix a marriage after an affair. I don't mind doing what ever, but I need direction. Myohmy's thread was helpful because his initial post sounded identical to my situation. The differnce is his wife is willing to fight to fix their marriage, my wife want's to be best friends and doesn't want to even discuss making it work. She wants to move on to the next stage of her life. She sees giving it another chance as going backwards, and a total sell out of her values, and principles. She is scared to try because she say's it took her so long to get up the courage to tell me she didn't want to be married, that she might not have the guts to tell me again and may get stuck in another bad situation and be miserable. She says it's not fair that when she was sreaming out I didn't hear. Now I'm screaming out and she's not hearing. The tragedy is that we never worked on our marriage at the SAME time.

Wow. Four letter opposites. The only INFJ I know is a 48 yo Ph.D. psychologist who just finished his third divorce. He is also the biological father of my firstborn.<P>So first of all, respect her introversion. No slobbering all over like a pathetic over-eager puppy dog.<P>Second, realize that her idealistic NF nature has given up to her J nature right now, and it feels permanent to her. Decisions are set in stone. Until you win back her feeling idealism.<P>Has she read any of the personality type books? NF's eat this stuff up like cheesecake. Most personality workshops have 70-90% NF participants. <P>But I only know of one NFJ on the forum. I think her username is Harmonious Melody. Certainly not a common type around here.<P>Maybe they think they already know all this. Or maybe they are just so naturally good at this they don't need to invest in the education. I don't know. Mostly they have excellent marriage skills. My friend is definitely the exception. All his pathetic wives were pretty much damsels in distress who dumped him because he really wanted a partner and an equal, not a fragile princess.<P>Meanwhile, don't lovebust. Don't leave. Cool down your need for action and impatience. You are probably a bit(!) impulsive. Continue your Plan A and give her time and security in knowing that you honestly do understand her and have really changed at heart. Work on her idealist side and feed her important J sorts of EN's.