OK, Here's today's challenge. When she came home from work last night we sat in her bed and I rubbed her down for almost 2 hours. I enjoyed it so much because giving her pleasure gives me pleasure right now. The hard part is getting out of her arms and going out to my couch. I did and she said thank you. I went to church this morning and came home, and helped her clean. I held her a couple of times and just rubbed and carressed her. She never stops me I think she really enjoys it. I told her I know she likes it when I rub and hold her but she can request it sometimes. She does not always have to wait for me to intiate it. I told her that she does not owe me anything and that she should not feel guilty. I do it because she deserves it. What I'm noticing about her is I can see her struggling with herself. She enjoys the contact, but she is trying to force herself not to let it get to intimate. She loves it but does not want to love it because it's going against her SET mind. I just want to scream out "Just enjoy it and let yourself go!!!" Tonight she is planning a "girls night out" with her girlfriends. I always watch the kids while she's working but I feel a little slighted that she is taking for granted I'll watch the kids while she bonds with her friends. I understand that she deserves to go out, and have a life other then me and the kids that's why I won't make it a issue, but it bothers me because I want her to just stay home and work on the relationship she is not ready to work on yet. Kareena, as a INFJ what do I have to do to get through to her? Does anyone else have any suggestions of the little things I can do to get through to her that I love her with actions and not words? Thank you in advance for your suggestions. This again is the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my entire life. Love someone and have to plan A because I was so much of a idiot while she was loving me!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>When she came home from work last night we sat in her bed and I rubbed her down for almost 2 hours. I enjoyed it so much because giving her pleasure gives me pleasure right now. The hard part is getting out of her arms and going out to my couch. I did and she said thank you. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is great that she let's you show her affection this way and enjoys it. That is more than many couples at your stage have. Be very careful to keep this non-sexual so she will continue to let it happen between you.<P>The book "Just your Type", available throught the <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> site Karenna mentioned, gives specific advice for each of the 136 possible relationship matches by personality type. Here is what it says on how a ESTP should try to reach a INFJ:<P>-- Take an interest in your partner's passions. Try to attend events or read books they recommend.<P>-- Be considerate and try to anticipate how your partner may perceive your actions<P>-- When your partner feels stressed and overloaded, lighten their load by taking over some household chores, watching the children, or giving them downtime.<P>-- Respect your partner's value system. Don't put your mate down or tease them about their values or opinions.<P>-- Encourage intimacy by sharing your emotions (may want to wait on this onem, or at lesast pick your moments carefully, with a withdrawn partner--Mike)<P>-- Express your appreciation in words and actions. <P>-- Be considerat of your partner's space. Respect their need for order and neatness.<P>-- Give your partner time to get used to changes in plans.<P>Also, in the commentary, it says:<P>INFJs are attractred to ESTPs because they're so playful, charming and adaptable. <P>Anyway, I highly recommend you get the book and give the whole section a good read...it gave me a lot of insight.<P>good luck...it sounds like you are making progress. Her personality type will take time to adpat to changes, so try not to force relationship conversations...they will just force her to state her continued ambivalence, and that tends to solidify and reinforce those feelings, even when they are in the process of changing.<P>Mike <P><BR>

I really feel like just giving up! I think I can Plan A for the next 10 years and she won't change. She has her mind made up! She is set on not going backwards. It all started tonight with me walking up behind her and putting my arms around her and telling her that the fact that she is going out with her friends makes me wish that us staying at home and cuddling on the couch and watching a good movie and talking was still a option. Then I kissed her on the forehead. She said "so the soup is good huh?" I said that comment made you thing of my soup? She said no It really made me think why didn't you think like that when I was screaming out to you. I said you know babe it's very important that when we communicate you say what you really feel, rather then saying something that you don't mean. She said she would but she didn't want to say what she really meant because she didn't want to hurt my feeling. I said you know I don't want to get into a deep conversation but let me say this: I love you very very much. I respect you and your space. I understand that I did alot of damage and was very inconsiderate in the past, but babe I'm learning everyday. As long as I'm living here with you, I want you to understand that I will love you, support you, listen to you and be here for you in every way you allow me to. I'm not trying to get my way or manipulate. All, I'm trying to do is get you to understand that just as I destroyed our marriage over time, I want you to allow yourself to allow me to prove to you over time that my changes are not temporary, and that I'll never hurt, ignore your needs, or ever be disrespectful or be inconsiderate to you again as long as I live. Don't say you will take me back, just don't say you won't never take me back. Give yourself time to heal. Give yourself time to understand and notice the life changes I've made are real. Understand that you are very lucky that you have a husband that loves you enough to make drastic life changes in order to make you happy. I said I noticed over the last week you are forcing yourself not to let me in. You want to look back, but you won't allow yourself to because it like your cheating yourself if you soften up a little. She said The problem is she knows me well, and that she knew that once she gave all the way up on our marriage that I would make the changes I'm making. She just wants me to make them for the kids because they need me. She has to force herself to go forward because it's to emotionally draining to go backwards. She says I'm the type of person that never listens or learns until it's to late. Like now our marriage is to late. I can't allow myself to go backwards, I have to go forward because I was to unhappy for to long. I said so it doesn't matter to you if the changes are forever. She said no! I have to go forward, and if your changed forever your going to make someone a hell of a husband! It just won't be me.<BR>I've come to the realization that her mind is made up. No matter what I do or say is a waste of time. I can plan A forever and she won't turn back because she feels like she would be betraying herself. I can make all the changes in the world forever and it's like spitting in the wind. I think I have to go on with my life. Move out and get on with continuing my life changes and maintaining a close relationship with God and my children. I think Plan A can work with he right person, but I really don't think it can work on my wife. I feel hopeless, and stupid for trying to convince myself that Plan A can turn her around. It's like I would just waste my time trying to bring her back and that would be time I could spend trying to get over her. If Plan A IS FUTILE do you do it anyway? I'm lost. This is where I end up everytime she shoots me down. I can be loving and caring and patient, but when she talks and tells me I'm wasting my time trying to win her back I feel hopeless. Are there situations where Plan A won't work? Is there a Plan B or C ? I think it's to late. So do I just move out and get on with my life knowing I just lost the most precious woman on the planet? Living here looking at her jump in and out of the shower and walking around me in her Victoria Secret's is driving me crazy. I can't be positive when she is so resoundingly negative. I feel like a fool. I feel like just giving up! Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I can't be positive when she is so resoundingly negative. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dude, I just posted this to you this afternoon:<P>"""Her personality type will take time to adpat to changes, so try not to force relationship conversations...they will just force her to state her continued ambivalence, and that tends to solidify and reinforce those feelings, even when they are in the process of changing.""""<P>And you force a relationship discussion. <P>Virtually everyone on this board is or was dealing with a withdrawn spouse. You don't force relationship discussions on withdrawn spouses....you won't like what you hear. You have to change their mind with time and action, not confrontation and persuasion.<P>Write your wife a note that says you don't want to talk about the relationship anymore, but you just want her to promise to give you time, and that you will be working hard at changing. No reponse needed from her. Just ask for time.<P><BR>

Mike I swear I was not trying to force a relationship conversation on her. I was trying to be supportive, and loving by making a positive statement. It turned into something I was trying to avoid. Your dead right that I don't like what I hear when we talk so I try to avoid it but either she initiates a relationship talk or it comes out of the blue like this one started. I was trying to explain that I was not going to pressure her and I was going to be loving and supportive. What do I do from here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>Mike I swear I was not trying to force a relationship conversation on her.</B><P>Look, I didn't mean to be tough on you. I read back a little, I see how fresh this all this, just a week or two, right? She is going to see any affection, any sign of love from you, as a red flag where she has to jump in and reiterate that her heart is closed. And every time she does that the words echo around for a week and sound like bible. So you want to avoid going over her comfort line. <P>I apologize for not knowing your whole story. Has she said anything about moving out, or starting divorce proceedings? How are your finances? Will she have to be concerned there? Sometimes I think being a little financially strapped is the best way to stay married <P>Anyway, your first goal should be to stay under the same roof. You already have a lot of good Plan A advice up above, and give the personalitytype.com stuff I posted a good read. Time is your ally, but <B> only if you are patient</B> <P>If she says that she doesn't want to work on the marriage, but wants you to get counseling ---there's a great opportunity! Get on the phone ASAP with Steve Harley...they are AWESOME at getting recalcitrant spouses involved in the process. After you talk to him once or twice, he'll request that she speak to him for background on you...to help your individual counseling...capiche? Then she gets drawn into the program, it is very effective. <P>If she wants you to work on yourself, see if you can get her to fill out the LB and EN questionaires under the guise of seeing where you failed...again, for bettering you, not working on the marriage, if that is what gets it done. (Obviously, don't espouse this, you don't want her to think you've given up. )<P>This thread has given you a lot of the tools, the Plan A, the personalitytype.com stuff, counseling with Harley....what you do with it is up to you.<P>Time and patience...this is all very early, she just blew up, and you will have to live in the doghouse for awhile and get your Plan A going before you'll see any cracks in the wall. Assume that it will be 90 days before anything positive happens. That way you can control your expectations. AVOID ALL LOVEBUSTERS! That is the most important thing right now.<P>what do you think she liked about you? From the personalitytype.com book, it looked like you were the fun-loving, exciting, social adventurous part of the couple, right? Same with me. So what happens when we most need to reinforce those strengths? We become the weak, weepy, clingy, mopey nightmare mates Don't fall into that! <P>I feel good about you, I think you will be a success story. But it will be a long slow battle....like fighting a big fishh...try to hard and she's off the line!<P>Also....just from sad experience here on the board...whenever I hear of a spouse just turning on a dime in their feelings, I feel compelled to ask whether there could be any outside influences....any other men that could have wandered into her life? <P>Mike<P> <p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 18, 2001).]

Mike, <BR>Thank you for taking so much time to respond. Our finances are getting better. I am contractor who's biggest client is the U.S. Government. So I get the bulk of my $$ once per month. She has said she doesn't want to be married. She says that she wants us to be best friends and be the best parents in the world collectively to give our kids a fairy tale type no pain divorce experience. This thing went south 2 weeks ago tonight. At first I made drastic changes and beat myself up and tried to talk her down. Obviously every attempt to talk pushed her farther away and deeper in her convictions that she does not want to be married. I have grown over the last 2 weeks but the aftermath of our talks takes a tremendous toll on my mental, and emotional mindset. I get a hopeless feeling that is overwhelming. This whole back to the drawing board feeling is crushing. However, this is the bed I made so I have to handle it. I will ask her to do the Love Busting, and EM Questionaires. I will call Steve Harley and start that process. I will try my best to be positive during this process. 90 days is the time frame I'll work within. I need to buy His Needs/Her Needs also. I hope my story is a success. I can't imagine living without her and my family. I don't think it is anybody else. I'm sure most guys in my boat don't think that is the case but it would be very uncharacteristic of her. She is very loyal. She has tried for months and months to get me to see the light but I was blind. Now she is just emotionally drained to the point where she has no energy to try to reconcil. I will try again. Plan A, it's just so hard.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>Plan A, it's just so hard. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You sort of break through a wall after awhile and the new behavior becomes natural. Why wouldn't be nice instead of lovebusting feel good? Why wouldn't doing things that make your W happy feel good? It does change, after awhile Plan A becomes very self-rewarding. <P>She hasn't talked specifically about moving out or getting an apartment or anything? <P>Time is on your side, if you use it well. Talk to Harley, I was in a very similar position to you, and he recovered my marriage. Don't waste the time I did it misdirected Plan As, tho. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>She says that she wants us to be best friends and be the best parents in the world collectively to give our kids a fairy tale type no pain divorce experience.<P>I have grown over the last 2 weeks but the aftermath of our talks takes a tremendous toll on my mental, and emotional mindset.<P>I will try my best to be positive during this process.<P>Now she is just emotionally drained to the point where she has no energy to try to reconcil. I will try again. Plan A, it's just so hard. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is long and rambling. As Pascal said, I don't have time to make it shorter.<P>Your <I>presence</I> is draining the love bank, regardless of anything else that is happening. You are also <I>not</I> getting ahead with anything you are doing, conversely, you are soothing her with a gentle wind-down to the marriage at a moment when change should feel most wrenching for her. <P>With the benefit of hindsight, here is how I would approach it. <P>First, you have to get out of the house. She is "having her cake and eating it too" in that she is willing to let you meet some of her needs, but has frozen you out of the marriage. <P>Second, you tell your children something like this: "I don't want to leave you, but your mother is making me move out--or rather, she is making it impossible for me to stay. We promised we would always be with each other when we got marriaed, but she doesn't want to anymore, and I have tried to change her mind but I can't. I hope things will change and I can come home, but if they don't I will still be seeing a lot of you, and I want you to know that I love you more than anything."<P>Once you move out, you want to have your new place in complete and inviting cleanliness and order as soon as possible (this is for your own good--we don't need you depressed, and for that matter, you probably should see a psychiatrist for an antidepressant). And you need to avoid alowing her to see it (actually, it would be more like an inspection if she got in there). This is evidently some kind of strong psychological need. My thinking is that by <I>frustrating it</I> you may gain some leverage over time. It's just a working hypothesis, though.<P>You should be operating under a plan, and not deviating from it. The main temptation to avoid is that of finding a new girlfriend right away. Judging by what I'm reading about her, she will not be putting herself back in the pool for a man. That means that if you get back in the dating pool, you will confirm her belief that you don't love her, and you will of course distract yourself, probably find a woman you like a lot, and be left with a lot of unanswered questions and dilemmas. <P>Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to project independence, strength, and courage. You must also communicate your anger, in solely appropriate ways. Verbally only, with no abuse, and at opportune moments like when she wants more contact or closeness or wants you to meet one of her needs or wants to meet one of yours. You can say that it can't happen, and tell her why. In that way, you will do two things. You will have an appropriate outlet for your anger, and you will perhaps build up a lot of unmet needs in her. She will discover that she <I>does</I> need a man, specifically <I>you</I>, after all. <P>It would help if her family's support for her were undermined (OK, I'm being strong here--what I mean to say is that if she is telling her family a lot of one-sided things, they are going to flock to her aid. If you are in the picture to provide a balanced viewpoint, instead of running for cover, they may decide that the best thing to do is to try to help <I>both</I> of you work things out). So if you have good relations with your in-laws, you may want to keep them up or even try to strengthen them. Only without <I>her</I> around. <P><I>You</I> need to realize that you are now getting nothing from this marriage. No hope. False friendliness (yes, my XW was all smiles and cutesy new nicknames for me too in the weeks after she made her mind up). No sex. No future. No real love. Just pain.<P>I've concluded it's not the time for Plan A, at least not for a Plan A in any sort of proximity. I noticed that when I withdrew all forms of "niceness" it created a hunger in her that she was desperate to satisfy. Of course, once "fed", she could resume her course toward separation and divorce. <P>And here is another weird one that you may be able to make something out of: at one point, I responded to a lovebuster of hers by refusing to drop her off back at her office to work late (the LB caused cancellation of dinner out together), and driving her around haranguing her for hours about what I saw as having destroyed our marriage. I also disabled both cars surreptitiously once we got home, and continued with the harangue. Finally I showed her how it was done, and how to undo it. Instead of leaving then, she and I laughed and watched sitcom reruns and fell asleep in each other's arms for the first time in a long time. Then the next day, she said I had scared her and we would not be staying together. The conclusion I now draw in retrospect is that you *must* communicate your true emotions, including anger, which they expect. What you must not do is make them feel at risk from you. I think you could do this best in letter form once you move out. Perhaps phone calls in the evenings (but don't beg her to come back, tell her how <I>bad</I> she's been). I would resist in-person meetings unless attended with a third-party counselor. She could probably be sustained for months on a single hug (you don't want to be doing this until you're on the road to recovery--stay aloof)--meanwhile, that hug would <I>haunt</I> you.<P>Rather, it is time to separate and withdraw and become very mysterious about any sort of detail on your personal life, except that you aren't seeing anyone and don't expect to do so. Get better haircuts, buy better clothes, work out, get tan, buy a sporty car, and keep pushing away--but <I>not</I> with an OW in the picture.<P>And ... your discussion with the children is the <I>last</I> of that kind you <I>ever</I> have with them. You don't want to be accused of trying to alienate them from their mother. Tell the truth once, then shut up. You want to be as responsible and reliable as possible. Keep to your visitation schedule, pay child support on time.<P>This stuff is hard. Make it easier on yourself and harder on her (by undermining her rationalizations [do nothing she can point to as clearly "wrong"] and support system, and by not fulfilling any of her needs while in exile), and she just might want to come back. <P>At some point you may see a glimmer of hope, and you will no longer have anger that needs communicating through <B>not</B> meeting any needs. If you see an actual, real possibility that she might be reeled in, you want to switch to a conditioning mode:<P>There are two kinds of conditioning, Pavlovian and Skinnerian. Pavlovian provides both rewards and punishments. It works only for lower animals. Human beings are typically unmoved by any punishment that hasn't reached an intolerable level (read: torture). <P>Skinnerian involves reward only. Nothing is done by the researcher except to note behavior and immediately provide reward to reinforce correct behavior only. Whenever STBXW does anything that seems positive to you, whether by accident or force of habit, or whatever--you need to provide an immediate reward. You will need to determine what the reward will be. Obviously, something she wants; preferably something she can't get elsewhere. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 19, 2001).]

NOOOOooo! Don't move out! You have only turned around for two weeks! NOT time to move out and give her Plan A remote, or even Plan B.<P>Don't leave unless your Harley counselor tells you to leave her!!! Can you get an emergency appointment?<P>With all due respect to Sisyphus, this is extremely high risk.<P>INFJ's are very theoretical and high-minded. Emotions are their operating system, but the part they display is rational thought. Let her do the thinking while you demonstrate your changes. You are an experiencer. Just DO IT! and do it NOW for heaven's sake. Right?<P>Don't stop being fun and active with the family, but it would help to try to participate in Non-relationship discussions on her favorite subjects, even if they are too esoteric for you. What is her occupation? Interests?<P>Get busy reading. Leave the books available for her to read too. She will love them and probably take them to heart even more than you. Let her read a personality type book while you read HNHN. Then swap.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>First, you have to get out of the house.</B><P>Disagree 100 percent plus a bag of chips. This runs totally counter to everything I have ever read about marriage counseling and definitely everything Harley has written.<P><B>She is "having her cake and eating it too" in that she is willing to let you meet some of her needs, but has frozen you out of the marriage.</B><P>This phrase and this strategy from Harley only applies when a wayawrd spouse will not, after an extended Plan A, break off an ongoing affair. It does NOT apply to a withdrawn spouse two weeks into Plan A. <P><B>Second, you tell your children something like this: "I don't want to leave you, but your mother is making me move out--or rather, she is making it impossible for me to stay.</B><P>Major lovebust...jeez, can you just delete this post before he reads it, and gets to the kidnapping and vandalism advice??<P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 19, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I really feel like just giving up! I think I can Plan A for the next 10 years and she won't change.. . . . . . . . I can plan A forever and she won't turn back because she feels like she would be betraying herself. I can make all the changes in the world forever and it's like spitting in the wind. . . . . . . I think I have to go on with my life. Move out and get on with continuing my life changes and maintaining a close relationship with God and my children. I think Plan A can work with he right person, but I really don't think it can work on my wife. I feel hopeless, and stupid for trying to convince myself that Plan A can turn her around. It's like I would just waste my time trying to bring her back and that would be time I could spend trying to get over her. If Plan A IS FUTILE do you do it anyway? I'm lost. This is where I end up everytime she shoots me down. I can be loving and caring and patient, but when she talks and tells me I'm wasting my time trying to win her back I feel hopeless. Are there situations where Plan A won't work? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>dcope, let me say something here. I am a wife whose husband was very much like you, depressed, miserable, feeling sorry for himself and not doing anything about his situation and neglecting his wife. What I hear in your cries above is 'DON'T LEAVE ME!!' You THINK you're actions should highlight how much YOU'VE changed, but all they highlight is how much you want HER to change, change her mind and stay with you. Plan A is not about getting HER to change, it's about getting YOU to change, and that will only be real to her if it happens whether she stays or goes. You put so much emphasis on changing yourself so that she will stay. But let me tell you, that leaves her feeling very insecure that once you are comfortable in the relationship again, it will gravitate back to what it was. In my case I did stay, because he wanted me to and he said he was ready to be the man I wanted him to be, and as soon as he was comfortable that I wasn't going anywhere, things began to gravitate back to the way they were, and now I'm back at square one again. <P>The smartest thing that you said above was "I think I have to go on with life. Move out and get on with continuing my life changes and maintaining a close relationship with God and my children." Well, I don't know that I agree with the move out thing. You have children involved and I don't so my situation is easier to walk away from than yours. But you really need to let her go and concentrate on you. I offer the following, which I have posted before on this board somewhere. It makes an awful lot of sense to me, maybe it will speak to you too. Good luck. I honestly hope everything works out for you but I truly believe you need to change your mindset in order for it to do so.<P>(I do not know where the following originates from, but it makes a lot of sense.)<P>The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretense to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. <P>It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment. Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger". . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe. If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage. <P>Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship-focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface. Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. <P>The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects. Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring<BR>husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will. <P>To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc. Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll<BR>go straight out and kill myself!" <BR>This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. <P>Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time. If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now<BR>realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead." <P>Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances-her grasping hands-any more. "But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure." <BR>It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious-that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.<BR> <BR>If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. <P>Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse: The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes.<P>After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home! The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better-somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. <P>Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan-a program-a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ava:<BR><B>(I do not know where the following originates from, but it makes a lot of sense.)</B><P>I'm fairly certian that is Dobson, and I agree that it makes a lot of sense. I think that people misread Harley to think that Plan A means groveling or somehow acting without dignity. If that is anyone's Plan A they are doing it wrong.<P><BR>

I'm not going to flame anybody. But I <I>am</I> going to stick up for the points I made. <P>Moving out removes any sign of ambivalence. There are the old sayings "familiarity breeds contempt" and "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Right now, ever mistake gets you 10 demerits and every love bank deposit gets you 1 merit. With that kind of ratio, it's difficult and exhausting to try to get ahead. Moving out gives you <I>more</I> control over the situation, and control is what you need. If you want to look over on amazon.com, I believe you will find a book on controlled separation. It may help.<P>Telling the children the truth may be a major lovebuster. But it <I>is</I> the truth, and we all deserve the truth, and we all should be free to tell the truth. If your wife wants to do what she's doing, you must establish that consequences flow from her actions. You will not make it any easier or harder than it has to be, you will simply let it be.<P>As long as you are still there, the pressures will build up inside you to do something like that goofy thing I did with the long drive and the cars and all. If you're outta there, it can't happen. Just for the record, what prompted that drive was that I tried to set a boundary, and XW walked all over it at what she felt was the opportune time. I told her we could go to dinner if we did not bring up the question of who slept in what bed. She agreed. But once inside the restaurant, the very first thing she did once sodas had arrived was bring it up. So I paid for the sodas and left. She <I>wanted</I> what happened (or something not terribly unlike it). I'm still not sure why, but I know there was an <I>intentional provocation</I>. <P>Also, if you are there, you are not recognizing and honoring <I>her</I> will. Moving out is, in a sense, <I>malicious compliance</I>. It is the thing she wants, and the thing that you are sure is wrong for her, but she will have to learn that on her own--you can't teach her that without an <I>object lesson</I>. Also, if she has any misgivings about your inner strength, your insistence on staying does little to dispel it. I say move out, and stay close but aloof. You can better decide what you want to do, and what you want to respond to, with the clarity that is born of distance and detachment.<P>I don't have all the answers. I wish I did. My answers are different than what others have written, and unorthodox. But I did what I did, and I saw what I saw. And I have thought long and hard on what I saw and did. And I have drawn the conclusions I have already put down.<P>Sometimes, there is a lack of recognition that one is in a <I>war</I>. The saying "all's fair in love and war" places those concepts close together for a reason. I'm not talking about a war as in bombs and guns and violence. I'm talking about <I>war</I> in the sense that you and your STBXW are no longer going in congruent directions, and talking has not changed either of you (except for your belated change). Diplomacy must now be carried on by other means if you are to be satisfied with the outcome. <I>Blockade</I> (as difficult and costly as it is) is an act of <I>war</I>. And I'm talking about a <B>blockade</B> preventing interaction from flowing between the two of you, a blockade you will keep up until certain supplies she has a large stockpile of begin at last to run short. If I am correct, these are <I>critical</I> supplies she doesn't realize anything about. When they run short, you will be in a better position to negotiate. I would describe the supplies as love and acceptance and self-worth and validation and comfort and all of the other emotional needs you <I>have</I> been meeting. The ones you <I>have not</I> been meeting have assumed disproportionate importance to her. You might actually try to meet some of them to the extent you can do so from a distance. But withhold the others.<P>You're through the looking glass, and down is up and up is down and what looks like good behavior is actually bad for the marriage, etc. So you're disoriented. By realizing what is missing and what is there, you can see how to rejigger what <I>you</I> provide into a photographic negative of what you were in her life before. The effect will be so unsettling that she will be compelled to reassess what she was seeing in the first place, and hopefully, she will try to triangulate her way back to a somewhat different "whole" picture. <P>Don't discount what others say. I just think the kind of Plan A they are proposing is a quicker route to exhaustion and the kind of errors I made. If what you're trying now doesn't work (and if it was going to work, I think you would have quickly seen signs of reward from her), do something different. To do otherwise is the very definition of insanity.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 19, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Sometimes, there is a lack of recognition that one is in a <I>war</I>.</B><P>Uh...Sisyphus, a quick read over your posts shows a pretty steady diet of wild lovebusting behavior and advice. Aside from merely emulating you, are you advising people here that this sort of behavior has saved your marriage?<P>It seems to me that you are pushing an LB rock up a hill that is fated to turn and crush your marriage.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>Uh...Sisyphus, a quick read over your posts shows a pretty steady diet of wild lovebusting behavior and advice. Aside from merely emulating you, are you advising people here that this sort of behavior has saved your marriage?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm already <I>done</I>, and what I advise is the <I>opposite</I> of the things I'm pretty sure <I>did us in</I>. If you read carefully, you'll see I describe things that <I>didn't</I> work, and some things that are often counterintuitive, or counter to what a lot of MB orthodoxy is, that I think <I>might</I> work. <P>A spouse ending a marriage in a non-affair situation is something that I don't believe Harley's theories are entirely prepared to meet. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> A spouse ending a marriage in a non-affair situation is something that I don't believe Harley's theories are entirely prepared to meet. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, seeing as I counseled with Steve Harley because I had a spouse that wanted to end our marriage in a non-affair situation, I can tell you that my experience was that Harley's methods were extremely effective. Concept number one was to avoid lovebusters and stay in the house to show an effective Plan A and changed behavior. <P>Your counseling moving out, telling the kids and blaming the wife, acting "aloof" are a recipe to divorce. <BR>

I'm numb right now. I know that things are not getting any better. I know that I am not happy. I'm acting aloof not on purpose but because I don't know what else to do. I've tried talking and I tried begging, and I have been through the entire gambit of emotions. The bottom line is she does not want to be married to me. However she wants to stay in the same house and "play house". I can't continue to focus on her. I have to focus on me, and staying committed to the changes I need to make in order to be a better person. I would love to stay married and one day look back at this time in my life and say WOW, that was one messed up time! I only feel comfortable engaging in loving and supportive behavior if she initiates the contact. I have been forcing my loving ways on her. She accepts it but does not ask for it. In other word when she comes home from work if I go in her room sit on her bed and massage her she won't say no, but if I didn't come in there she would just close the door and go to sleep. Maybe I have plan A screwed up to but I've been basically graveling. Forsaking myself in order to get her to see that I love her. I love you guys for trying to help but to be honest I'm more confused then ever. I'm lost. All I can do is stay committed to change and if she wants to work on it I would in a heartbeat, but if the status quo is kept I can just about promise you that we are headed for trouble. Do I let her go like the one pollster suggests ? Do I move out? I have a severe headache, and I never get headaches.

You get the expert counseling advice. ASAP<P>You haven't even read HNHN yet?

time and patience<BR>playing house can turn into real house<BR>time and patience<P>your post show the panic in your life (I know it too well) slow down, work on yourself, call Steve - be there - be your best.<P>two weeks is a very short time.<P>DO NOT MOVE OUT