<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>She is not interested in even considering reconcilliation. She talks in terms of me getting myself together for me and the kids. She is in complete withdrawal. My immediate strategy was to just get myself together because we still live under the same roof. She would see my positive changes as positives and give our marriage another try. She sees my changes as manipulation. Trying to get my way. She doesn't think it's real. She said I'm the boy that cried wolf! to many times. <P>How do I get her to open up and give me one last opportunity. She sees that as equivalent to going backwards. She associates that with pain. <P>She won't let me get close enough to fix it. Whenever she talks it about the future when we live apart, and how fun we are going to make it for the kids by being such good friends.<P>How do I get inside? The more I try the farther she moves away? How do you reach a person who seems content to end a marriage? I can make her happier then she has ever been in her entire life if given the chance. How do I get that chance? I've read that she is at a stage called absolute withdrawal. How do I get her from there? How do I start to make love deposits when she not interested in accepting any deposits?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Parts of your original post seem pretty grim.<P>All my responses have been predicated on my (perhaps erroneous) assumption that she has told you at some point "Get Out!"<P>If that has happened, then I think your bias should be toward honoring that request. If that <I>has not</I> happpened, however, your goal is to play for time, because that 10 to 1 ratio I was talking of may <I>not</I> have kicked in (I think it does once "Get Out!" is uttered). <P>On rereading your posts in their totality, I think you may be having quite powerful reactions to what is on her part a more malleable situation than it appears. It would seem you <I>are</I> getting a certain amount of opportunity to deposit into her love bank, and you <I>are</I> in a situation where she thinks it might be right to stay married <I>for the children's sake</I>. Given the short period of time that this situation has been out there, I think you may have a better chance than I had.<P>Your challenge is to avoid lovebusting. It is also to take a deep breath, and focus your finite energies in the directions that will produce the greatest return. The financial needs that are not being met are key. You must also keep being a loving father to the girls, and remain available to give your wife what little she will accept from you. The challenge is to <I>avoid</I> being servile about it. It's key that she views you as <I>a man</I>, who is entitled to <I>respect</I>. <P>So remember, don't force any issues, don't do (or fail to do) anything such that she would be moved to say <B>"GET OUT"</B>, but do focus on those things that answer her concerns. <P>The other thing to realize is that these switches don't usually flip in a vacuum. There must be someone, somewhere, that she is confiding in who has pushed her thinking on this subject. That someone may or not be involved in an EA with her. Of course you hope not. But if there isn't an EA, that person must be very trusted, so you know who they are already and their opinions will be well known to you. If that person is secret ... then you likely have an EA out there.<P>Good luck.

Thank you guys for putting up with me. I feel alot better this morning. I would love to call Steve but I don't have $125.00 right now. All the money I get from working is going towards the mess I put us in finacially. I will go buy HNHN today and start reading it. In the interim I have decided to just stay here and be as positve and as spiritual as possible. I'm letting go and letting GOD. I won't do anything to force the issue or do anything to hinder the issue. The part that I haven't told you guys is I've hit rock bottom before. In a previous marriage. I found God and was blessed with a new wife, beautiful healthy children and a very successful business. Then I walked away from God and decided I could do it all by myself, and the rest is history. I think this is God's way of getting my attention, and teaching me once and for all that I can do nothing without him in my life. No matter if she leaves or stays, or asks me to leave the changes I'm making are for me and forever. The bottom line is I can't fix it I have to let God and time fix it. Please keep me in your prayers while I pray for everyone on this board that's going through something. <P>No she has not asked me to leave at this point. If she does I will leave out of respect for her wishes. I do think I'm spending way to much energy, worrying and obsessing on things I can not control. I think my energy can be better spent working to generate income, and working to better myself and at the same time make sure I'm not love busting. In other words stop analyzing every piece of body language and sound she utters and trying to interprete her thoughts and feelings. If she wanted me to know she would tell me. More importantly stop internalizing everything and beating myself up with guilt, this I think is the most draining aspect of the entire situation.<P>Have a blessed day!<p>[This message has been edited by dcope (edited February 20, 2001).]

A few quick thoughts:<P>1. If Financial Support is a problem, think what you can do to give her hope for a better future. Take a second job, part time at night, something to give her hope. Mothers with children are very sensitive to security in this area.<P>2. Time and patience. You are VERY fortunate that she is notplanning on sepaarating, and that she let's you show some affection. I wopuld continue to do this, in order to stay connected.<BR> <BR>3. You may want to try some anti-deps in order to present a more calm and stable face to her. Talk to your doctor.<P>4. Do NOT move out, even if she asks you too. One of you has to show faith in the marriage. And I can't see moving out doing anything but dramatically worsening the financial scene. Give her space, but you are not going to break up this family.<P>Groveling isn't bad for awhile, it shows your love and commitment Try not to do it 24/7 it gets annoying. The anti-deps mauy help you there.<P>This situation is all set up for success. I think that if you avoid forcing the issue. her heart will open back up. But you need to play it right, Plan A, no lovebusters, tackle the needs you can address, like financial support.<P>Mike<P><BR> <P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 20, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>4. Do NOT move out, even if she asks you too. One of you has to show faith in the marriage. And I can't see moving out doing anything but dramatically worsening the financial scene. Give her space, but you are not going to break up this family.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not disagreeing in this instance with what is happening right now. I'm not flaming either. What I will add is that there may come a moment when you must honor the request to move out, regardless of finances or convenience. It is a challenge to recognize that moment. I think the moment comes when your staying is being motivated by your <B><I>taker</I></B> rather than the notion that you can do any good for the marriage by staying. <P>At that point, it's not <I>faith in the marriage</I>, it's the hostile action of frustrating a wife's (probably valid) feeling that there is an enemy in her home. Regardless of its validity or invalidity, it must be dealt with, and since you can't work on them you work on you ... and above all you must be nonthreatening and not lovebusting. If your spouse has concluded that your mere presence is threatening or lovebusting, then you must engineer your own absence.<P>One way to measure the arrival of that moment ... how would you feel if <I>she</I> moved out? If there would be any sense of satisfaction or triumph in having her do that (even if it would be mixed up with all sorts of other emotions), then your <I>taker</I> is engaged in the decision, and you need to reevaluate, and probably move out on your own. If she actually <I>does</I> say "you leave or I leave", then you <I>must</I> leave. That's it.<P>To reiterate, the moment when you are <I>least</I> inclined to move out is the moment when you must re-evaluate, and probably you'll find that it is time to move out. Not to end the marriage. But to provide the "space" that you both need, and push your taker down.

Could I add you need to nurture your "self" also? May I recommend:<P>"A Man's Journey to Simple Abundance by Sarah Ban Breathnach, Michael Segell." This book is newly released.<P>Wonderful sharing of men's life stories and learning experiences. Take the best care of yourself that you can. Physically, mentally and emotionally. We have no control over anyone but ourselves. Take it day to day, that way all of what you are learning and feeling isn't so overwhelming.<P>Ragamuffin<P>

Today was a good day. I picked up a extra job at night that will provide us with a extra $300.00 to $400.00 per week on top of my income from my business. This will help a ton. I told her about it today and she seemed positive. She Didn't strip me butt naked and jump my bones, but she did seem happy I guess. I dropped her off at work and took the kids clothes shopping after giving her money for bills. I think I'm on the right track as far as financial support considering this was one of the biggest love busters in our marriage. I'm still a little distant meaning I'm not going out of my way to intiate affection because I still feel akward because she never asks for it so I feel like I'm invading her space. I kinda feel like if she wanted to be touched she'd ask. She has said she don't ask because she feels guilty like she owes me something. Is not love busting and meeting the needs that don't reguire her imput like financial support and family committment sufficent? Is Giving her space without the affection good enough or do I try to keep giving her massages, and telling her how much I love her? I feel kind of uncomfortable telling her I love her because it's like I'm forcing the issue. Is me just doing what I'm doing and working on me enough?

Bravo on the job. This is the kind of thing that turns the ship around.<P>The main thing that you want to maintain is <I>dialogue</I>. That's how you find out what else you need to do or stop doing. The key thing about that <I>dialogue</I> is that you're likely to hear some things you don't want to hear. Maybe things that are very tough to take. You need to learn about flooding (in the Gottman book "Why Marriages Succeed or Fail") and that half hour breaks are necessary if you start flooding. She's obviously got to understand this too in order for it to be handled appropriately by you both. <P>If you can be very gentle with each other, and very patient, and very kind, you may work your way out of this quicksand. Stay in touch here. Good Luck (and remember, the harder you work, the luckier you get!).

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>Today was a good day. I picked up a extra job at night that will provide us with a extra $300.00 to $400.00 per week on top of my income from my business.</B><P>Jeez...I only recommended that to you this AM. I wish my W was this responsive. Speaking of which -- <P><B>I kinda feel like if she wanted to be touched she'd ask.</B><P>If withdrawn spouses were on fire they wouldn't ask to be rolled in a blanket. Speak to her about it, but try to stay connected physically, through affection and sex, when possible. <P><B>Is not love busting and meeting the needs that don't reguire her imput like financial support and family committment sufficent?</B><P>If those are her major ENs, yes. Perfectly sufficient. My W doesn't have SF or affection among her top ENs...most women don't. That doesn't mean they aren't needs and they don't enjoy them, it just means they are top crucial decisive ones that win the most lovebank deposits. Like, say, conversation might be to most guys. I'm not going to love you more if you yap at me all day, but if you're real quiet for a week I know something is wrong <P>You are doing GREAT! You will earn a lot of respect by taking on the additonal Financial Support effort. This is also good because it will give her some space.<P>Good job!<P>Mike <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 20, 2001).]

HUGE NIGHT!!! Ok I won't pop the bottle of Champagne yet, but we made a giant step in the right direction I think. I picked her up from work and she came home and immediately had my 3 yr. old son put on a fashion show with the clothes I bought him tonight. Then we sat on the couch and watched the two boys lip sync there favorite songs off of the Napster. She put her leg up on me clueing that she wanted me to massage her feet. No Problem! We kind of cuddled and SHE RUBBED MY BACK FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 16 DAYS. It wasn't long but best believe I felt it. She then said I have to go to bed. So she left and went into the room. I probably shouldn't have asked but I said "why is it we can sit on the couch and sit in the car together but we can't sleep in the same bed?" She said because we are separated. This is what separated people do. I said listen I need to ask you a very important question. Why am I still here because separated people usually don't still live in the same house. She said because we can't afford to have 2 apartments at this point. So I said if the only reason I'm still here in your mind is financial, I don't want to be here. I love you. I want a opportunity to give our family the type of life they deserve, but I am not so weak and desparate that I want to be here under those circumstances. So she hesitated a long while before saying that she feels trapped. She feels like she can't afford to leave, she doesn't want to leave to go to her family in Seattle because the distance would devestate the kids, but she has been unhappy for a long time and she doesn't know if she can trust me to do the right thing. I told her I don't want her to trust my words. That my words don't mean anything. That I have lied to her so much and everytime I've lied to her I taught her how not to trust me. I told her that my actions is the key. I told her how our marriage working is a long shot but a long shot I'm willing to bet on because I know I'm ready to be the type of man you and the kids deserve to have leading this family. I told her the reason our marriage didn't work before was because I lacked the marriage skills we needed to have a successful marriage. So basically I told her I didn't want to stay if she has whole heartedly given up on our marriage. She blinked. She said that she is confused she doesn't know if she wants me to leave. She is to confused right now to think. She started going on about trusting me again and how I must think it's easy. I said you know I know it's not easy. The easy way out is to leave, send you money and see the kids when I see them. I don't want that I want to tear down the ruins of our old marriage. Pour a concrete foundation for a new one and build it back brick by loving, patient, and compassionate brick. She just listened. For the first time she didn't talk NEGATIVE. She sounded almost like she wanted to say ok let's give it a try. I backed off and said listen go to sleep, but understand that as much as I love you I don't want to be here if you've truly given up. She didn't say anything else but the tone was different. I think the thought of me leaving stirred something. I think she is really fighting with herself. She wants to try but she is scared. I think we took a giant step. I'm going to slow down and take a deep breath and hope that it carries over into tommorrow. If it does great, if it doesn't back to the drawaing board. So what do you guys think?

dcope,<P>I think you are on the right track. Keep reassuring her, and letting her know that you Love her. Keep letting her know that you say the words because you mean them, but you will show her the actions so that she knows you mean them. Remember not to push.<P>Take One Day At A Time.<P>Griz

Wow. I think you're in. A few more weeks of this perfect husband behavior... Wow.<P>"Confused" is exactly where you want her right now! She is now doubting her set in steel-reinforced concrete opinions!. Hooray!<P>I am very impressed. Jealous too. She must have really loved you a lot too. You have a lot more basic chemistry and compatibility than I have experienced in marriage. Even from this low point.<P>Keep up the good work!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B> So what do you guys think?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well.....I think you took a huge risk there. You basically called her bluff and forced a relationship showdown. She blinked, but perhaps only for that discussion, and now you put moving out on the table, where it hadn't been before.<P>When I was in your place and counseling with Steve Harley, very early on I wanted to say "I can't take the limbo, let me just tell her to make up her mind or not!" Steve's exact words were "Very high risk. She is confused by your new behavior, but hasn't bought into Plan A yet. She still has the inevitability of divorce in her mind. If you show a willingness to give up and a lack of faith in the relationship, she will probably just float along with it. Hang in there....confusion is better than where she was a few weeks ago, you are making progress."<P>Now, your W didn't take you upon your offer to moveout, but maybe it was more because she wasn't prepared for the moment. You took the gamble and turned out okay, for now, but I think it was very premature. From what I heard, her staying in there was based not on love or committment but <I>solely on a lack of finances</I>. I mean, if you had $100k in the bank, she'd be gone, right? That isn't heartening.<P>Don't roll those dice again. Keep your head down on the Plan A behavior.<P>I know I asked this before, but her behavior here is so reminiscent of AGG's W, I have to ask...could there be a third party here? A guy on the side, or an internet chat romance?<P>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>From what I heard, her staying in there was based not on love or committment but <I>solely on a lack of finances</I>. I mean, if you had $100k in the bank, she'd be gone, right? That isn't heartening.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike raises a good point: My XW said to me during a discussion about her intention to leave "I just have to do this now while times are good." To this day, it is a statement I remain astonished by. But of course, if shaky finances are keeping you yoked in tandem, it makes some sense.<P>During pre-Cana (mandatory Catholic pre-marital counseling named for the wedding where Jesus transformed water to wine [no, I'm not Catholic, she is?/was]), I remember one of the speakers making the statement that while there are financial constraints, many marriages maintain strong interaction as spouses cooperate in order to "survive" day-to-day. Once those pressures lessen, spouses are free to drift apart. There's some truth in that.<P>So the challenge is to maintain that sense of cooperation and communication once the light is visible at the end of the financial tunnel.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...her behavior here is so reminiscent of AGG's W, I have to ask...could there be a third party here? A guy on the side, or an internet chat romance?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Another good point by Mike that can stand reinforcement.<P>I believe I foreshadowed this comment before. If someone <I>other</I> than an EA OM is at work, that person's identity and opinions (say, a hostile, meddlesome MIL) should be already well known. The change-of-heart with no apparent person driving it ... leads to the inevitable supposition that there is some <I><B>un</B>apparent</I> person. He needs to root out that person and neutralize their influence.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

Well, it may very well have backfired this morning. She woke up and started talking. I listened she broke down and started crying about being scared to go forward and scared to let me leave because she thinks she will lose me as a friend for life. She says she's scared I'll move out and never look back. She knows she can't do it finacially without me. I reassured her that I will always love her and I would never abandon her or my kids. She asked for a temporary separation. She asked me to move out so she can get her thoughts straight. She says she is terribly confused right now, and that she wants to go forward but she can't bring herself to. I told her I did not want to leave but if she wants me to I will to respect her wants. So now I'm on the road. Part of me feels alot better because she broke through and opened up, confessed her love, but reinterated her pain. The other part is now I'm out the house, so Plan A is out the window. I'm sorry I put my foot in my mouth but now I've made another bed. She is very scared of the impact this will have on the kids. Especially the 8 yr. old. I don't know what's going to happen from here but it's here. To go back and say I can't find somewhere to go is a risk. To say I'm not leaving is a risk because I'll be going against my word. So what do I do now. Remote Plan A ? I feel better because the progress over the last few days is better then it was with me in the house even though now I'm out of the house. Can this be possible? What do I do from here? Out of sight is out of mind? Does absence make the heart fonder? Please people give me direction. Am I in better shape, or did I just do irrepairable harm to my marriage? She said from her mouth for the first time she wants a TEMPORARY SEPARATION. This cracked the door for the first time since this ordeal started. Is she craking the door to let me in or did I just crack the door to let myself out?

A tough moment. To find a way to nip the separation in the bud without seeming to cling. While I'm almost of a mind to suggest that it can't be done, I would suggest the following, which needs to be carefully scripted, thought out, and delivered:<P>First, you found some places you could stay, but you think your extra money can better be put toward financial goals. You think it's important to pull together before you think about pulling apart. Second, you don't think you've been crossing any of her boundaries, don't plan on doing so, and would like to remain in the marital home where the two of you can work on your communication and interaction in order to restore loving feelings (you profess to have no doubt that she loves you, but you can understand how right now she doesn't have loving feelings for you--you understand why people say "I love you but I'm not in love with you", and love is a <I>choice</I>, not a feeling), which is one of the challenges many couples successfully face in their marriages. Finally, you just can't imagine your children having to go through the pain of being separated from you, and would like to stave that off as long as possible, provided your wife feels safe with you in the home. Assure her she is safe.<P>All three reasons are oriented toward <I>you</I> holding up <I>your</I> responsibilities to others in your life and not bailing on them, regardless of <I>feelings</I>. If you can think of any similar reasons, throw them in; just beware that they don't display any selfish aspect.<P>Finally, if it doens't work, accept the situation gracefully and back out, then ask her to speak to you often on the phone and ask her to promise to revisit the decision as soon as possible.

arrrrgghhhh....Well, this is why you don't talk about moving out, dcope. <P>So...now what....since she called your bluff, you have to hit the street? BS! <P>Tell her you changed your mind, you won't be the one to leave, you'll give her the space she wants, but, if she wants out, if she wants to quit on the family, if she wants to quit on the marriage, if she wants to strain your already dangerous family financial security....she'll have to leave. <P>And, by the way, yes, if she won't work on your marriage and breaks up your family without giving it any sort of time and effort, you will, indeed, resent her for the rest of your life. Let her make an informed decision, because this "we'll be friends" stuff is a fanatasy.<P>You have to change the debate from the logistics of moving out to the logistics of working on the marriage.<P>This is definitely a setback, but you can overcome it.<P>Rule one for Plan A is STAY IN THE HOUSE. No one can see much change unless it there day-to-day contact. Otherwise, you both are just acting during the brief times you are together.<P>Now....I am definitely starting to get the feeling that you are dodging my questions about suspicions of other men. An affair, even an emotional attachment, may well change the strategy. Do you have any suspicions?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>Tell her you changed your mind, you won't be the one to leave, you'll give her the space she wants, but, if she wants out, if she wants to quit on the family, if she wants to quit on the marriage, if she wants to strain your already dangerous family financial security....she'll have to leave. <P>And, by the way, yes, if she won't work on your marriage and breaks up your family without giving it any sort of time and effort, you will, indeed, resent her for the rest of your life. Let her make an informed decision, because this "we'll be friends" stuff is a fanatasy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Respectfully, Mike, this sounds to me like Lovebusting. This is a direct challenge to her will and her authority in the marital home. She will meet such a head-on attack with a blistering defense, and if <B>dcope</B> "wins", she won't feel safe in the marital home, and will plot a departure of her own. <P>Given where he's at now, <B>dcope</B> needs to approach with much more subtlety than that. I've been there on this one. I refused to go. I let her go sleep at her brother's. What a hollow victory that was.<P>As to the "friends" after marriage: because my wife seemed afraid of losing me entirely ("You're not going to totally diss me out of your life, are you?") I maintained the <I>in terrorem</I> position that post-marriage my wife would be cut out of my life (in time, I'm sure it lost its terror). I kept to it too, though I really didn't intend it that way. How much better to say "I would want to still be your friend, but once we're no longer living together I'm afraid we'll drift apart. I hope it won't come to that."<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Now....I am definitely starting to get the feeling that you are dodging my questions about suspicions of other men. An affair, even an emotional attachment, may well change the strategy. Do you have any suspicions?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But I'm right with you on this one, Mike. <B>dcope</B>, we can't do right by you if you won't do right by yourself. This issue deserves a <I>searching</I> examination. How 'bout it?<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

I don't have any suspicions, I don't think there is anyone else. What do I do tonight. Do I leave for a day or two and then come home and tell her I can't leave my family? Or Do I just go home and say I'm not leaving?

<B><I>Start</B></I> having some suspicions. Just make a list, and see who might be on it. Include nameless third parties at places she frequents, and include internet contacts, if she spends significant time on the net. Pay particular attention to someone you <I>used</I> to hear a lot about (good or bad), but don't hear about anymore.<P>And when you go home tonight you want to <I>try</I> an end-run approach around the "having to move out" problem. Robert J. Ringer's <I>Type 3</I> behavior: "I want to do what I promised, but there are these extenuating circumstances that force me to do otherwise." But don't stay <I>wedded</I> to staying in the house or you won't stay wedded to your wife. If she's steadfast, you be the one to bend.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I don't have any suspicions, I don't think there is anyone else. What do I do tonight. Do I leave for a day or two and then come home and tell her I can't leave my family? Or Do I just go home and say I'm not leaving?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>dcope, you have painted yourself into a nasty corner here. I have been trying to give you advise based on my somewhat similar experiences through which I counseled successfully with Steve Harley. But now you have yourself out on a limb, and you really need PROFESSIONAL advice, and not just people on a message board, and, nothing personal to Sisyphus, but don't listen to his advice, it is based in neither Harley or success. I certainly hope that you weren't listening to him when you had that ill-fated conversation.<P>This is your life and your family now, and while I know you said you couldn't afford $100 for counseling, if you are getting ready to pay for an apartment rental, you can certainly afford an hour with Steve Harley. He is available on short notice for emergency situations such as yours. Call 1-888-639-1639 to schedule.<P>If you can't get scheduled with Steve today, I would stay at home and avoid discussions until you do. DO NOT MOVE OUT. It could be that your W will change her mind again. Don't commit to anything, and try to avoid addressing any timetables or issues with her. If pressed say that you need some time to think. Continue Plan A as much as you can.<P>