<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I think this marriage is mine to destroy by being impatient, and impulsive, and selfishly self centered. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>YES!!</B><P>That is the attitude, right there. People in your position, our position, tend to live and die with every perceived flicker of attitude change in their mate. Bottom line is -- without an affair, nobody leaves a kind, non-lovebusting mate who is trying to meet their needs. So do that and time is on your side. Your fate is in your own hands.<P>I love your attitude, your head is in the right place, and I'm betting on you, buddy. <P>Mike <BR>

Posted by Harmonious Melody:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>...do you know what her needs are??? I'm not her and I can identify with pieces, but did you both do the EN questionairres? What was found there?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>dcope</B>,if you haven't done these, I wouldn't try yet, unless you're sure you can do so without LBing. It's too much like a "relationship discussion" and you've indulged in too many of those already. If she does fill one out, don't bother filling one out for yourself. As Karenna said early in this thread, you don't have any ENs...just worry about hers. Looking at the Harley materials on ENs I bet you can slowly figure out in a non-LBing way what needs she has that she'll let you fill.<P>You mentioned that you're doing a lot of reading. Did you get HNHN yet? Also, follow the "Concepts" link at the top of any forum to read Dr. Harley's basic concepts online. You really need to be reading this...the people posting can't possibly give you as much information as there is in the Harley materials. The forums should be considered a supplement to the materials, not a substitute.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>My thoughts were as long as I never had sexual intercourse with anybody all else was fine. So I did tremendous damage, and more but I don't want to share more because I'm sure some of you are already saying she is nuts if she gives me another chance!! <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>One of the things that the Marriage Builders<BR>concepts have helped most of us learn is that there's a lot more to our marriage vows than just the part about "forsaking all others". By the time that one gets broken both spouses have usually already failed their partner in many ways. It's good that you're coming to grips with this. The good news is that she probably will give you another chance if you keep up the good work.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>You know I was thinking today that it won't be three weeks until Sunday, and all ready we have had like 7 or 8 in depth draining relationship conversations. This is not a description of Plan A is it? <P>...she said that maybe she just needs some time to get over the pain, that the constant talking is coming in like pressure and that it is draining her emotionally. I need to be patient. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Maybe you should read SAA (Surviving an Affair) and see what it's like for someone to spend months in Plan A while their spouse has a blatant ongoing sexual affair. If you really want this kind of experience for yourself just keep up the pressure and maybe you can drive her into someone else's arms! Otherwise, I recommend cooling it as I think you realize you should do, and have been advised. Realize that it if there's really no other man things could be much worse! Maybe you should seriously consider getting a prescription for an antidepressant to help you relax and be less moody.<P>Anyway, probably you should read HNHN first, but reading SAA or at least some of the stories on the infidelity forums here may be good for you. Next time you get impatient think of the stories of people who have struggled to win back unfaithful spouses, sometimes for years. If you only have to spend a few months in the doghouse while you learn how to be the husband you should have been all along, consider yourself very fortunate.<P>Good luck,<P>Steve<p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited February 22, 2001).]

Stillhers,<BR>Wow! That was alot to think about. You are absolutely right. I've been bubblely, and engaging and just giving her space. Plenty of non-relationship conversation. It's a little akward at first because your first instinct is to overanalyze every word, and every move she makes. I picked her up from work and sat at the table reading HNHN, and she asked me why are you reading that? I bought you the Green Mile for Christmas and you never touched it. I said because I'm learning so much about marriage skills and the inner working of a marriage. She said I don't believe in that stuff. Just like I don't believe in marriage counseling I think by the time you get there it's to late. Little negative comments like that get under my skin. She came to say good night and said Thank You for picking me up from work, and I instantly gave her a smirk because I thought it was kinda sarcastic. She said what was that look for? Thank you for picking you up from work? I'm your husband. I'm supposed to pick you up. See, little things like that make this harder then it has to be. She is now going out of her way to make me feel the distance between us. I think she likes the pursuit, and begging and pressure I really do. She thinks that comments like that will spark a reaction. This is the type of BS I don't have patience for. I can settle in and be patient and supportive, but the more space I give her and don't engage in relationship discussions she starts this brother and sister, A ocean between us distant game that aggrevates the heck out of me. Ok we said we wouldn't talk about our relationship anymore. I would not pressure her, but she's enjoying watching me twist in the wind I can tell. I know that drives me nuts. I'm starting neutral conversations just to not be quiet, and aloof, and she gives me this dry one and two word answers. Then she gets on the phone with her sister on the west coast and she has all the energy and the words in the word to talk happily. I'm just ignoring it for now but, I'll tell you it's very frustrating to have her act this way. Can someone explain it to me? Why does she act this way?

5 words....<P><B>Dr. Philip McGraw. Relationship Rescue.</B><P>I bought the audio book cuz I can't read al too well. Listened to it for the first time today and only got through side A of tape 1. Tere are 4 tapes. $20 and WELL worth it. Do it. Now!<P>From what I've read dcope, you are alot like me. Get the book or the tapes....<P>Best to you, hang in there guy! I did! I am!<P>------------------<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I am a loving father, and in my heart a Husband who (still)loves his (Ex)Wife and wants the best for his Family.<BR><LI> My happiness comes from within <B>me</B>, I owe it to MarriageBuilders.com and the people that use it for helping me show it.<LI><B>KISS K</B>eep <B>I</B>t <B>S</B>imple <B>S</B>tupid. Stop over analyzing. And understand your thought life better.</UL>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>Stillhers,<BR>Wow! That was alot to think about. You are absolutely right. I've been bubblely, and engaging and just giving her space. Plenty of non-relationship conversation.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>Good, I think that's what you need. Sorry if I was a little tough on you, but this is a marathon, not a sprint and you'll never last without calming down.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>She is now going out of her way to make me feel the distance between us. I think she likes the pursuit, and begging and pressure I really do. She thinks that comments like that will spark a reaction. This is the type of BS I don't have patience for.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>You'd better if you want to save things. Avoiding lovebusting is even more important than meeting ENs, or you'll squander the benefits of all the positive things that you're doing. She's probably testing you--doesn't believe you'll really be different. If you react angrily you'll prove her right. Remember, Plan A is about you being different, not about her response.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>...she's enjoying watching me twist in the wind I can tell<P>....Can someone explain it to me? Why does she act this way?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>First, reread the things you listed previously in this thread about what you've done to harm your relationship with her. Think about how you'd feel. She's angry, and you would be too.<P>However, this may be a good sign. Read what Dr. Harley says about the 3 states of a relationship: intimacy, conflict, withdrawal. The worst state is not conflict, but withdrawal. He also indicates that you don't move from withdrawal (where you've given up caring about your spouse) directly to intimacy. First you go through conflict.<BR>What she's doing sounds a little passive-aggressive, but may be her way of engaging in conflict.<P>Remember, someone who's fighting in a relationship at least cares enough to fight about it. That's a lot better than when they've given up, just don't care anymore, and are ready to walk away. So, if she's showing anger where she was withdrawn before this is likely to be a good sign.<P>Don't blow it now and let her see that she's getting under your skin. Keep up the good Plan A.<P>Best wishes,<P>Steve

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by dcope:<B>Sis, dude please stop talking about divorce and divorce stratergy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I used the D word exactly once, and just as a warning of the potential downside to formalizing a separation with a document. All of us hope it doesn't come to that--but you still want to have a contingency strategy mapped rather than having to cast about frantically in the heat of the moment.<P>The folks who say she is back in conflict are <I>right</I>. What are you supposed to do? <B><I>Take Your Medicine!</I></B> She needs to punish you for a while to make her point. You need to do your time in the <I>graybar inn, stony lonesome, hoosegow,</I> whatever you want to call it; and emerge a rehabilitated member of society--ready to start on the <I>bottom rung</I>. 'Cause believe me, some of those antics ... well, let's just say my XW would have left already ... taking some of my anatomy with her!<P>So memorize this response to her jabs: <B><I>Ouch! I deserved that!</I></B> Use it until it's second nature. At some time in the future, you <I>may</I> be let out of the penalty box. Much of the behavior you need is contained in my prior post ... one of the trickiest things to guard against is having her decide that you are <I><B>acting like everything's OK</I></B>. That will be your temptation when things return to surface normalcy. Here's another spot where you have to walk a fine line ... if you're too hangdog, you actually <I>do</I> get depressed and she loses respect. If you're too upbeat, she gets angry. So think <I>Boy Scout</I>: thrifty, kind, cheerful (but not overly so), courteous ... and a few I can't remember. If you get the "<I><B>acting like everything's OK</I></B>" criticism, then you say "I'm sorry, I know how seriously I hurt you and damaged the marriage. I'm doing my best to show you that, but sometimes my feeling that we may be making progress gets the better of me." Or words to that effect. Then see if you can stay subdued for a while, and find some job around the house that needs doing.<P>One last thing: the marriage books and counseling ideas. You need to counter her notions, but subtlety and gradualism are called for--direct challenge will harden her attitudes. So when she speaks negatively about marital help (not marital aids!), say something like "I'm hoping you'll give me a chance to make up for lost time." or "From what I'm reading, I don't even think we're in good enough shape for counseling yet--but I hope we will be soon" or "Maybe the best counselor in the world can't save us, but no matter how shaky your last chance is, you still take it." It might also help if you pick up Dr. Laura's "10 Stupid Things Men Do to Mess Up Their Lives". There's hardly any better way of showing contrition than by burying yourself in a book with a title like that.<P>P.S. - At a guess, I think one or more of "the girls" is giving her poisonous relationship advice--although some of it seems justified as a <I>wake-up call</I>, given the history.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

Sis, thank you for that post. That is the type of encouragement I need right now. Your other post usually have me between moving out and saying forget it! or ready to slit my wrists. I truly do appreciate all the time and energy you have dedicated toward helping me through this. Everyone on this board have been more help then I can every express. Mike C2, Kareena, Ihope, Stillhers, every single post have been heart felt. I'm<BR>optimistic, I'm full of joy right now because I know God will bring me through this in one piece and in better shape then when I went into this. The range of emotions and mood swings is my biggest challenge. Learning to stop reading into every little word and act is also my challenge. I'm almost finisded with HNHN, so I will find something to read after that. there have been several suggestions on the thread that I will look into. It has been 3 weeks almost. My goal right now is to go another 3 weeks without talking relationship, or intiating contact, and work on myself some more. The saving grace here is that I've been reading some other posts and there are plenty of people in alot worse shape then I'm in. Prayer, Patience, and Perserverance. Ther 3 p's is my direction right now. <P>Thanks everyone for your support!!!!!!!!!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>Your other post usually have me between moving out and saying forget it! or ready to slit my wrists.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is to be no talk of <I>wrist slitting</I>. My other posts are hard, because frankly you're in a tougher situation than <I>Marine Boot Camp</I>, and you needed to be cognizant of that. The good news is you're already starting to make the grade. Don't quit. And don't associate <I>moving out</I> with saying <I>forget it</I>. Remember, I'm with the <I>don't move out</I> crowd, but if it comes to that, remember the American general in the Korean War who, characterizing his retreat when surrounded by the Chinese, said <I>"Retreat Hell! We just turned around and attacked on another front!"</I> There is no moment when you quit! Not till the last dog dies!<P>But for your sake and her sake and the kids sakes, keep the dogs alive: rested, fresh and pulling!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>She came to say good night and said Thank You for picking me up from work, and I instantly gave her a smirk because I thought it was kinda sarcastic. She said what was that look for?</B><P>arrgghhh...dcope, don't look for fights. If she is sarcastic, ignore and roll over it with positive vibes. Pretty soon it won't be fun to try and get a rise out of you.<P>It sounds like she may be coming out of withdrawal into conflict, testing the new you, trying to see if it is allan act, trying to stay justified in her mind that she should end the marriage. <P>This is opportunity time. Don't rise to the bait. When she tests you treat it as her recognition of the new you, and pass the test.<P>You just had a very eloquent quote up above summarizing some very good reasons why she should be ticked off at you. You have to serve some time in the doghouse. When you lovebust back at her sniping, you just add to your sentence.<P>Mike<BR>

<B>dcope</B>, Mike just highlighted a <I>major</I> lovebuster that I didn't notice before. Gottman only talks about <I>two</I> specific, universal facial expressions that do tremendous damage to marital good feelings.<P>1. The upcurled upper lip (one side). A universal expression of disdain, disgust, contempt, etc. That may not be what you mean by it, but nonetheless, it's gotta go.<P>2. The "eyeroll". You know, rolling your eyes back as if to suggest "there she goes again" or "she's nuts". Same deal. It's gotta go. <P>And for God's sake, <B><I>NEVER COMBINE THE TWO!</I></B><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

"I instantly gave her a smirk because I thought it was kinda sarcastic."<P>dcope:<BR>no smirks!!<BR>remember that every LB can set you back to ground zero!!! a whole day/week of great behavior lost in a smirk.<P>try pretending the message was delivered in a loving or at least neutral way. Think before you respond. YOu might have said exactly the same thing, but in a different tone - you may have been able to turn the conversation tone around. Ignore her sarcasm (is it that or are you interpreting it that way? - from your previous posts, she is not presented as a sarcastic person - so are you putting your feelings on her?)<BR>Remember that your mother told you to treat others as you wish to be treated. ALWAYS SPEAK TO HER IN A LOVING, SUPPORTIVE MANNER.<P>I just counseled with Steve today. I have to work on my attitude too and this is a very difficult aspect to change. It is not easy (ha!) like going to the gym everyday or making better eating choices. He suggested I especially pay attention to how I treat others in my H presence - my children!!! I sometimes yell at them for being messy, or am sometimes less than compimentary --I would never speak to my H this way - but he can generalize my behavior: if I have angry outbursts with the kids then I am always that way!!! HOw are you with your kids?<BR>Think about how you treat others, you may gain insight on how to change.<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>1. The upcurled upper lip (one side). A universal expression of disdain, disgust, contempt, etc. That may not be what you mean by it, but nonetheless, it's gotta go.<BR>2. The "eyeroll". You know, rolling your eyes back as if to suggest "there she goes again" or "she's nuts". Same deal. It's gotta go. <BR>And for God's sake, [b]<I>NEVER COMBINE THE TWO!</I></B><P>I don't think it is possible, try it. And it gave me a headache. <P>Also, don't cross your eyes and stick out your tongue, because your face will freeze, my ma said, and you'll have to wear sunglasses the rest of your life. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 23, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR>And for God's sake, <B><I>NEVER COMBINE THE TWO!</I></B><P>I don't think it is possible, try it. And it gave me a headache. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you kidding? It's easy. Your damned emoticon (smiley) is doing it! Look close at the mouth! <P>Now, if you want to do a really <I>spooky</I> exercise, try writing what your W, or H, or STBX, or X would write about your marital troubles, breakup, etc. I just tried it, and it was cathartic and shocking at the same time:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002269.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002269.html</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 23, 2001).]

I went up to her yesterday and said you know I want to apologize about the look I gave you yesterday, I said I thought you were being sarcastic. She said no I wasn't that is not my nature, but I appreciate you apologizing. I'm not talking relationship or smothering her with affection. I won't touch her until she is ready to be touched, and I definitely won't talk relationship. I took my sons to a hockey game yesterday and she decided she wanted quiet time at home and to go out with a girlfriend and have dinner. I was a little disappointed that she didn't want to go with us. She came up to me and said you know I feel guilty about not going with you guys and going out to dinner with my friend. Are you mad at me. I said you know the thought never crossed my mind to be upset. You deserve th eright to do what ever your heart leads you to do, so have a good time. She was home by the time we got home but I just went to bed and she did to. This is the hard part. Waiting, waiting, waiting. Well I'm up to the task. I just hope that one day I have a opportunity to live the type of life we all deserve. Here is a question we were invited over her friends house with the kids. She has not asked me to go, but she asked me will I be attending or just dropping them off? I really don't feel like being over there acting like the happy family when that is not how it is. Should I go anyway or should I spend the time I have alone, and go to the movies or something? She didn't take me up on family time, do I have the same right?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I really don't feel like being over there acting like the happy family when that is not how it is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Catch-22. You won't start being a happy family until you start acting like one.<P>She opened the door for you to go, so go. Be upbeat. Be happy. When your wife asks you that, say "I was looking forward to going." And go and have fun and be the fun partner that she remembers you being, the one she married, the one she used to laugh with all the time.<P>Or, do that other thing, your plan, go sulk and be sad. Whichever sounds right <P>

Be there.<P>

Well, I didn't go. I actually looked forward to being home alone. I'm not sulking or feeling sorry for myself, but the place she is going is not where I want to be. I would rather sit here and finish HNHN tonight.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I'm not sulking or feeling sorry for myself, but the place she is going is not where I want to be. I would rather sit here and finish HNHN tonight. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just a few thoughts that may help your road....<P>Be careful that your new found enthusiasm and interest in learning about marital relationships doesn't sidetrack your actual Plan A efforts in your marital relationship. (This from Mike, closing in on 1500 posts here) I'm not saying that you not going the other night was necessarily a good or bad move. But a big part of Plan A is getting in the game and being a good mate, and oftentimes you need to gird yourself and be brave, moving into situations where you may not want to. <P>Case in point -- this weekend my W had a little reunion with a few of her cousins at a honky-tonk bar in her hometown....I tried casually to wriggle out of it, arguing to myself I was giving her space, etc, but she definitely wanted me to go. I'm pretty good in social drinking situations and she said several times on the way home that she was really glad I went, her cousins run a little quiet, so it would have been a sort of awkward night without me stimulating conversation and being Fun Mikey. So...major lovebank deposit, I think. <P>I would watch out in your situation for your wife going out socializing alone, even if it is with kids at a friend's house. Your absence will underline the "crisis" atmosphere in the relationship, or maybe even spur comments or conversations. As I said above, you have to act normal sometimes before things start to feel and be normal.<P>Mike <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B> me stimulating conversation and being Fun Mikey</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not being sarcastic - this is for real!<P>I can see you being very good at communicating and having a good time! You sound like a very interesting person... And someone that would be fun to know!!! Hope at some point your wife REMEMBERS to appreciate you for it! (I think she did - casually - when she REALLY wanted you to GO! That's special!)<P>Jan

Well, I had to change my screen name because I think W was lurking and getting insider info on my plan A strategy. I'm the original pollster of this thread so keep in mind, my screen name changed but my situation is the same. Mike I'm very concerned that what I was doing was not LBing but not making the contact and affection neccassary to make Love Bank deposits. Tonight was different. I think I may have broken a foot and back massage endurance world record. Major deposits I hope. The deal is this I wanted to keep my distance in order to offset the negatives assocciated with the over talking done over the last couple of weeks. You know I could be wrong but I think I may be breaking through slowly. She seems to be gravitating around me lately and asked for affection today? Is this a good sign.