<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>nothing personal to Sisyphus, but don't listen to his advice, it is based in neither Harley or success. I certainly hope that you weren't listening to him when you had that ill-fated conversation.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, Mike, the last thing <B>dcope</B> needs is to have us sniping at each other. But it brings to mind a good point: I don't think anything I said could have prompted such a conversation, but conversation got <B>dcope</B> in trouble, and silence might (in this rare exception) help get him out. <P>On the off chance she's having second thoughts about what she said, maybe when <B>dcope</B> gets home there won't be any conversation about this because his wife won't have expected anything to happen <B>immediately</B>. <B>dcope</B>, as long as one of your marital problems <B>isn't</B> that you don't follow through on things, it might be good to see if this is something that you can keep off the discussion topic list for as long as possible by just not bringing it up (if follow-through has been a problem, this kind of behavior will be a lovebuster). Maybe find a way to stay "too busy" for that discussion to happen (with kids, or whatever). Yet another way to play for time.<P>It's tricky. <B>dcope</B> has to be careful not to <I>get caught</I> dodging (if that happens, he's got to engage in the discussion, not stonewall). But maybe doable...

dscope: I don't think moving out is a solution. Maybe the two of you need time to be by yourselves. away from the kids and home. Can you afford to take her to a bed and breakfast JUST to TALK..no sex. Just talk. It will be a quiet place. No nagging kids. Then ask her if she would consider going to counseling.It will only work IF she is ready. My H was not ready. he lied and still lies about everything. Trust is only words here. I trying to trust but he has to prove to him that I an believe him. So, maybe your can teach her how to trust you. Keep telling her you love her. I tell my H so often. He says that he know, that's not the an issue. Don't know what his issues are but, he has issues.

Sis, I think you are a real bright fellow, but you let your own emotions and personal experience get in the way of sound analysis in this case. You put dcope into this situation because I don't believe he would have opened Pandora's box but for your rant. You blew it big time.<P>Please calm down and keep out of this for now. Unless you are DANG sure you have a brilliant suggestion that is HIGHLY unlikely to arise from anyone else and is EXTREMELY important for dcope to understand immediately. If you expect he can muddle through without your genius, let him. <P>When I am in a really bad mood I sensor myself hard like that. Maybe I should sensor myself even more often. Look at your own mess and own plenty of humility. And apologize. Set an example.

dcope,<P>Frequent continuing contact. If you are out, Plan A everyday when you visit your kids. (Make sure you do see the kids every single day if you hope to get joint custody if this all blows up.) Please don't leave. Eat s**t all you have to, but try to give her a neck massage everyday, fill her lovebank. Be her bestest friend ever in the whole wide world, even if you do have to sleep next door because of what has now been said. <P>But you can still beg and test her resolve. Tell her all the money from your second job will have to go for your room out of the home if she insists on the separation, but you could support the family much better if you stay, even if you still sleep on the couch.<P>Sorry about this turn. Keep up the efforts, and get an emergency appointment with Steve if at all possible.<P>(((((((((dcope)))))))))))<P>Karenna

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>You put dcope into this situation because I don't believe he would have opened Pandora's box but for your rant. You blew it big time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If the following led <B>dcope</B> to ask his wife what he aked her about it being fine to be on the couch but him not being allowed in the bedroom (and then to get in the whole discussion that led to being asked to leave), then I'll own it and butt out:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So remember, don't force any issues, don't do (or fail to do) anything such that she would be moved to say "GET OUT", but do focus on those things that answer her concerns. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He found his own way into Pandora's Box because there is a strong pressure <I>from inside yourself</I> to apply relationship pressure to your spouse when you're both still in the same house. It was what I was afraid of, but there are so many ways for it to happen that it is hard to warn specifically against each one. I did say:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As long as you are still there, the pressures will build up inside you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I was, at length, convinced by others that he could successfully remain in the home. Under the above-quoted conditions (the first quote, about not doing anything to force any issues). He did not refrain from pressing (Mike warned ably about this problem too, and even more directly than I, the first time it happened). Now it's time to see if he can successfully backpedal without a head-on confrontation.<P>This is not in the "told-ya-so" mode. I'm sorry as hell this happened to <B>dcope</B>, but he was <I>walking a tightrope</I>, and it was almost inevitable, even though he has a lot of sense and good balance. He's still hanging on, maybe he can climb back up.<P>I think one of the things that's a problem here is the physical closeness and the massages. Wanted more by him then her, they are nonetheless satiating her on that particular need and whetting his appetite for more. It would be better if he learned to go without, and she were allowed to discover the depth of that need by having the gauge drop to empty. Holding back in that regard while moving forward on long-neglected needs of hers also shows a seriousness of mind and purpose and discipline, even in the face of deprivation. All things she needs to see from him rather than his selfish maneuvering of her into meeting his need for affection.<P>If he wants me out, he'll tell me so. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>You put dcope into this situation because I don't believe he would have opened Pandora's box but for your rant. You blew it big time.</B><P>I agree. And unlike what he pasted in above, this is the advice I think may have stuck in dcope's head, because he certainly wasn't hearing it from anyone else: <P>Sisyphus:<BR>""""First, you have to get out of the house. She is "having her cake and eating it too" in that she is willing to let you meet some of her needs, but has frozen you out of the marriage. Second, you tell your children something like this: "I don't want to leave you, but your mother is making me move out--or rather, she is making it impossible for me to stay. We promised we would always be with each other when we got marriaed, but she doesn't want to anymore, and I have tried to change her mind but I can't. I hope things will change and I can come home, but if they don't I will still be seeing a lot of you, and I want you to know that I love you more than anything." Once you move out, you want to have your new place in complete and inviting cleanliness and order as soon as possible (this is for your own good--we don't need you depressed, and for that matter, you probably should see a psychiatrist for an antidepressant). And you need to avoid alowing her to see it (actually, it would be more like an inspection if she got in there). This is evidently some kind of strong psychological need. My thinking is that by <I>frustrating it</I> you may gain some leverage over time. <BR>=======================<P>Sisyphus, you either are totally ignorant of or choose to ignore Harley's methods, and that is what people in trouble come to this site to hear. Your stated logic is that by doing the opposite of what got you divorced people here should succeed. But some situations are so far gone from lovebusting that individual actions are irrelevant, so your thesis is without logic or merit. Let the experience of Harley's writing or the personal experience of people that have had success with his concepts speak to these people. Unfortunately, bad advice on this board has the potential to seriously damage people's lives.<P>Mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>this is the advice I think may have stuck in dcope's head, because he certainly wasn't hearing it from anyone else:</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And I would stand behind that advice, because it certainly would have prevented the situation we have now, where he has been directly asked to leave, and must either obey or disobey, or dance like hell to find an acceptable way to do neither; and none of the alternatives look good, and a turning point has been passed, all because of a pressure both you and I predicted. Yuck.<P>I certainly didn't plant in his mind the idea that continuing the massages was a good idea, I all but screamed at him to stop that, because y'know, it just leads to that same false closeness that seduces him into thinking the time is right to invite himself back into the bedroom and then, when disappointed, get into a discussion that ultimately leads to the very thing we've all been trying to avoid: his wife saying mroe or less directly "Get Out". Unfortunately, Mike, you did suggest that they continue. I'm not flaming you over this, buddy, I just think that you need to recognize that physical closeness when a wife is emotionally closed is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off in just the way it did in <B>dcope</B>'s case. Again, this is not to rub your nose in it, it's just to point out where I was coming from when I suggested a move-out in the first place.<P>I'm not flaming you--we've all got a bad situation here. I think I've been saying things that, if followed, would have avoided it. The issue was never so much his presence or absence in the home. I believe a fair reading of my posts would confirm that. The issue was his presence in the home in extremely awkward circumstances. Which have now gotten more awkward, even though I suggested some ways to make it <I>less</I> so (to be fair, others did too). <P>Had he moved out prior to the turning point, it would perhaps not have been the best scenario, but it would have been better than moving under direct order, with more chance that the wife would have said "come back" (like the showbiz adage that you leave the audience wanting more--and before you get the hook). Now it's precisely in one of the tightest spots it can be in.<P>I'll not take the blame unfairly for this one.<P>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 21, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>I don't have any suspicions, I don't think there is anyone else. What do I do tonight. Do I leave for a day or two and then come home and tell her I can't leave my family? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dcope, do not even <B>consider</B> moving out long or short term. That would be a very, very bad move for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the possible legal ramifications of that action in the unfortunate event of a divorce action. And if there are legal ramifications, none of them would be positive.<P><sigh> Talk to Steve Harley, please. <P><BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I certainly didn't plant in his mind the idea that continuing the massages was a good idea, I all but screamed at him to stop that, because y'know, it just leads to that same false closeness that seduces him into thinking the time is right to invite himself back into the bedroom and then, when disappointed, get into a discussion that ultimately leads to the very thing we've all been trying to avoid: his wife saying mroe or less directly "Get Out". Unfortunately, Mike, you did suggest that they continue.</B><P><migraine> Sisyphus, your apparent inability to draw a distinction between massage and sexual foreplay does not mean that it extends to the rest of the human race. Dcope's W clearly enjoyed the massages and even requested a foot massage over the past day or so, and that is clearly an EN and an opportunity to make lovebank deposits. Yes, of course, one doesn't interpret it as a sexual overture. They are two different ENs, SF and Affection.<P>You are starting counterproductive debates here that are making people in need like dcope think we are arguing legitimate Harley strategy points, as well as sapping the time and energy of the the people that do have info to impart about Harley's methods. <P>Please, seriously, go away. This is not a debate forum, or some place for forcefully advocating dubious marital theories of your own invention. The people in need here may not have time to sift Karenna's wheat from your chaff.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>Please, seriously, go away.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's <B>dcope</B>'s decision, not yours.<P>

Well I went home and we talked again and she says that she wants me to stay in the house, and take things one day at a time. Don't pressure her. Don't force issues just give her time to see what can happen. Right now she says she's not ready to give it another chance because she's to hurt, and to confused. She's scared to let me move out because she thinks I will met someone else and go on with my life and not look back. She is more scared that i will not be her friend. She says she could not handle that. She says that if we got back together it would be for me or the kids not her. She says that she would be mad at herself for not sticking to her guns. She says to not love her right now. Just take things one day at a time. I guess I'm right back where I started right? So back to Plan A? Sis, didn't influence me to take the risk I took. I was just being impulsive. I was serious at the time. We had such a positive night I didn't understand why I had to still be on the couch. Well she broke down today and cried and expressed feeling she had never expressed until now. Up until now she was concrete. Now she is softening up right? Did I dodge a bullet here? Ok, what's the next step. Not that I've followed you guys advice to the letter but I'm trying. I'm back in the house she has opened up a little but she's not letting me in still. She listens now. She is thinking alot. She says she can't sleep or function because she feels like she might lose me forever because that's the way I've always operated all or none. What's my next step? Patience, patience, and more patience? Plan A? Or just focus on myself. Mike, Karenna, everyone please don't give up on me!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>Well I went home and we talked again and she says that she wants me to stay in the house, and take things one day at a time. <P>....Right now she says she's not ready to give it another chance because she's to hurt, and to confused. She's scared....<P>She says that if we got back together it would be for me or the kids not her. <P><BR>I guess I'm right back where I started right? ....I was just being impulsive. ....I didn't understand ....<BR>I'm trying. I'm back ....<P>Or just focus on myself. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dcope, I can sympathize with your W as well as you. <P>You are lucky she doesn't want you to move out. But, if you look at the editing above, you might see a pattern. She is SCARED. She doesn't want to be hurt more and on the defensive to make sure she isn't. You've proven yourself to be someone other than who she thought you were. You've proven to her that "you" are the most important person in the relationship. <P>Try to move back and actually put yourself in her place. Although men and women don't see things the same way, right now, your W needs you to try and focus on her. <P>I was the W in a very similar situation. The major mistake my XH made was that he TOLD me he was changed, but when I didn't respond immediately to his changed state, he reverted - thus proving that he wasn't really a changed man. <P>I suggest you focus on truly changing yourself. Try to realign your thinking to say "she needs" this from me rather than "I am" doing - whatever. <P>If I had seen an attitude change like that in my XH.... well, hindsight <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B> Mike, Karenna, everyone please don't give up on me!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you dodged a bullet there, and it seems like she said some good things. You can't expect her to heal in two weeks. She is noticing your changes, but afraid that it is a mirage, and afraid to open her heart.<P>All that stuff about staying together for the kids, etc.....fine. Take that for now. You have the secret plan. Plan A. A covert mission to win her heart. It takes time, proximity, kindness, NO lovebusting.<P>Rwad back on Karenna's first post to you, with the list of things to do. Especially, forget your ENs, you have none.<P>You have the personalitytype data...that was VERY helpful to me. Read back on it. If you have an opening, get her to fill out HER EN questionaire...just hers, just as a favor to you, say you want it for your own info, please.....that is another important data point.<P>Don't be discouraged by her not having hope...it is way too early. Your actions PLUS time will = hope for her.<P>Nice to hear that she doesn't want you with another woman...that is a vestige of love, so it is not all gone <P>But also, please.....don't think this is over. She has gone back and forth and may go back again. Tomorrow morning she may decide she wants you out again. Please, call Steve Harley. You just saved a month's rent, you can afford an hour of counsel that may save your marriage.<P>dcope, you're killing me here...have a quiet couple of days, huh? <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcope:<BR><B>We had such a positive night I didn't understand why I had to still be on the couch. Well she broke down today and cried and expressed feeling she had never expressed until now. Up until now she was concrete. Now she is softening up right? Did I dodge a bullet here? Ok, what's the next step. Not that I've followed you guys advice to the letter but I'm trying. I'm back in the house she has opened up a little but she's not letting me in still. She listens now. She is thinking alot. She says she can't sleep or function because she feels like she might lose me forever because that's the way I've always operated all or none. What's my next step? Patience, patience, and more patience? Plan A? Or just focus on myself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>dcope</B>, I'm going to try to describe the "concept" that is in her head that you must battle. She might call it "<B>pressure</B>". The best way to explain it is that she doesn't want to be married to you, but feels societal, practical, financial, moral, and finally, personal (from you) <I>pressure</I> to stay in the marriage where she sees no bright future. As long as those pressures are palpable, she will continue to add to a stockpile of personal counter-resolve until it becomes enough to overcome the pressure, and at last she bolts.<P>You have to attack this on many fronts. It's now established that you are going to try to stay in the home. You must establish that this is <I>not</I> for any selfish reason on your part. Selfish is defined by her, but if I may read her mind, it would include anything having to do with your proprietary feelings toward the home, your desire to remain married to her, your comfort or convenience, or your simple inertia. We've already gone over unselfish reasons. We've also gone over the circumstances that would mean you <B>must</B> leave the house, as distasteful and devastating as that would be. Remember, resisting the hook will not endear you to the audience.<P><B>Never</B> do anything you haven't discussed with her first, or over her objections. Not so much as a new pillow for the couch. <P>Now, about that pressure. <I>Every</I> time you do for her, or have her do for you, any action that has been habitual in your marriage where one of you meets the other's needs (other than those needs of hers you have not been meeting), it is seen by her as an attempt to affirm the marriage <I><B>that she does not want.</I></B> That is interpreted by her as pressure, and adds a bit to her resolve--so it's likely counterproductive, or at best neutral. <P>Contrastingly, every time you meet one of her needs that was not being met in the past (mainly, I would think, monetary and security), that is interpreted by her as a sign that something different is happening that might make her want to stay in the marriage. Since it's coming from an unexpected direction, no defense has been built up against it, and it does not require her to add a counterbalancing measure of resolve (or rather, she will fail to have a reflex in place that makes her do so).<P>The tricky one: I bet one of her unmet needs is that you did not do much planning (outings, travel, your future as a couple and your children's futures). You cannot do any <I>long-range</I> planning as a couple. Obviously, that will be interpreted as pressure. What you can do is plan outings with the kids in the short range, and plan <I>for them</I> with things like life insurance, setting up a college fund, etc. (to the extent you have not already done that). A challenge here is to make that seem natural, because it can't be seen as a response to her machinations--right now her thinking is too "borderline" for that (it would be devalued as a <I>response</I> to her desire to leave, and not <I>spontaneous</I> on your part).<P>If you have been the one to keep financial records and details in the past, find ways to gradually shift that onus to her. She has likely felt locked out, insecure, and uninformed. Caveat: she will be looking at past records with a <I>microscope</I> for any discrepancy, which she will add to the list of reasons to leave. You might try getting her started with a clean slate from, say, March 1, and hope that she doesn't insist on auditing the past.<P>Finally comes honesty. It is not what you think: <I>the mere forbearing to utter falsehoods</I>. At a guess, she has had harsh reactions over the years to developments you viewed as relatively insignificant. This has influenced you to omit details that you felt might simply upset her, and since she's probably been unpredictable as to what those might be, information coming from you has likely dwindled down to a few generalities in response to her very pointed and probing questions. <B><I>OMIT NOTHING!</B></I> Log your entire day working, and be prepared each evening to recite it all to her. <P>Do not discuss your desperate love for her. Do not <B><I>touch</B></I> her for the short-to-mid term. Remold your marriage as a <I>mere</I> business relationship, and one in which <I>she</I> is kept fully informed and given the bulk of the input. <I>You</I> simply become the <I>golden retriever</I> and font of memorized facts and figures about your business and financial lives.<P>If there is anything slovenly, scrawny, unbalanced or ungainly about your appearance, a program to correct it is in order.<P>Now, after this has gone on for a while, you can take steps to try to reboot the other side of the marriage from <I>square one</I>. That would likely come in the form of hiring a sitter for the evening, going for a nice dinner someplace (nowhere with <I>memories</I>), keeping the discussion light and away from relationship issues, and seeing a movie. If you can follow that up with a society or charity function (black tie would be wonderful), all the better. Then just keep moving, as a shark does to keep itself from suffocating. <P>If she <I>ever</I> suggests a date with you before you think you are ready, <I>do not</I> duck, dodge, delay or avoid. You go on that date, exactly when she wants it. And keep it <I>light</I>.<P>If there is porn in your house or on your computer, or she knows that you masturbate, that's gotta stop, vanish, etc. She does not want to know that you are finding ways of meeting <I>your needs</I> while she has had to live like a <I>nun</I> due to her decision. <P>This is all going to be very hard on you. I would suggest that you go to a doctor and get an antidepressant. If it causes anything you don't like (rage episode, somnolence, whatever) go and get it changed. You will likely notice a difference in <I>her</I> when you have been on it long enough for it to take effect. This is normal and natural, because you will be more natural-seeming, more connected-seeming, you will be able to look her in the eye and speak with confidence. Do <B>not</B> attempt to take immediate advantage. If you feel that she is seeing a <B>new you</B>, and you have a <I>firm</I> sense of that, mark your calendar for 21 days; because that is how long it takes to psychologically fix in someone's (her) mind that sort of sea change. You might wait an extra week for good measure. Then, gradually, you can start to explore her heart again. Don't drop off the meds because you feel OK or don't like the side effects.<P>Some or all of the specifics may not apply to you. I'm guessing one or more will. The point is, you want that <I>photographic negative</I> effect to kick-in. You will become, in effect, the <I>anti-</I><B>dcope</B>, at least insofar as your perceived weaknesses were concerned, while your strengths at fulfilling her needs will be temporarily <I>suspended</I> so that the effect will be emphasized by the absence of background clutter. Relationship discussions should, as much as possible, be <I>off-limits</I> because they require her to be guarded to "avoid giving you the wrong idea". You don't want her reinforcing her own resolve.<P>You never <I>win</I> this game; all you get is extra time in which to play. If you're <I>very skilled and very lucky</I>, that time can be extended indefinitely into a renewed marriage. Should you succeed in regaining her confidence for the specified time, I would suggest you broach counseling at that point <I>and not before</I> (pressure again). With the Harleys, or at a weekend pairs.com, retrouvaille.org, or gottman.com workshop (the latter is in her hometown of Seattle), or with someone who you already know to be good. There is an article on the MarriageBuilders site about how to find a good counselor. That should be something you work on in your spare time, but because it will be some time before you can even suggest going there, you have time to make it a painstaking search. Never expect her to see a counselor you have been seeing alone. She will interpret that as pressure, and feel that you already <I>own</I> the counselor. <P>Other people will have other opinions, perhaps counter to some or all of what I am saying. Weigh them as evenhandedly as you can. There is nothing guaranteed here, except that defensiveness and stonewalling any of her criticism will not help you. Her criticism and contempt are corrosive to the marriage, but there is little you can do to directly influence those habits of hers now. <I>You</I> must be the one accepting influence, to the extent she still cares to try to exert it.<P>Best of luck to you.

I forgot to mention: do <I>ferret out</I> whoever's undermining you, be it a longtime confidant of hers, or a newfound Emotional Attachment or even Physical Affair. <P>They may not even realize they are doing it: if someone (say your wife) is, <I>every day</I>, giving a jaundiced, one-sided appraisal of the state of her marriage to, say, the fairest person in the world; the latter will still respond in ways that reinforce your wife's distortions. <P>That person must be found, and their influence neutralized, either by cutting them out of your wife's life, or by you becoming a real and decent-seeming person to them.

dcope:<BR>do not move out- find out.<BR>you have made progress with your W - you need to be present to continue. I suspect once you move out your resolve may faulter too - it has only been 2 weeks - if no other person in the picture why won't she work on your marriage? <BR>you need to stay - hang in there<BR>also call STEVE NOW!!! THEY TAKE CREDIT CARDS

Read this post called "signs of an affair" <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000985.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/000985.html</A> it was a good one.

dcope, Hi there. Are you around today? How are things going?<P>I'm not sure that I feel I know a lot about your wife even from this thread. I can identify possibly somewhat. If she is like me she is a very dedicated person and it will be very difficult for her to give up the marriage. You are probably lucky that she hasn't already (maybe the majority of women would have by now), but it doesn't mean she would never. This has worked in your favor and if she is like me she can be a very forgiving person and will bear it until she breaks. <P>What Karenna said is so true: [quote]<B> Second, realize that her idealistic NF nature has given up to her J nature right now, and it feels permanent to her. Decisions are set in stone. Until you win back her feeling idealism. </B>[quote]<P>When my idealism has ended in a relationship and I'm totally spent and all of my every effort is gone yada yada, then my J nature does take over and things feel permanent as if now this is reality and I have to accept it and go on. I am a real giver and I will bend a lot but there is way, way, way down the road a point where I feel I've done all I can and this is reality. If you can change show her and give her plenty of time to see it. If she can believe you have truly changed then she'll take you back most likely. But if you persist in doing it just to win her back and get sex and get what you want and regress like before, you are building your own platform and hanging your own relationship. She is a forgiving person I'd bet and from what you've described (the little of it) she's put up with a lot. She's a strong person probably although she doesn't feel like it many, many times.<P>Constant contact like Karenna suggested is a good thing if she's like me. The backrubs probably fill her (if she's like me) but only as long as you don't follow through wanting something in return. I would say her "J" is in charge trying to discern and determine reality and sort through things. You need to give her time, not press her to make a decision and become a better person. <P>I can relate to the financial security issues and this sounds like it basic to her needs as well. Show her you are providing for the family in these areas and are working to put them back on top and her admiration of you and looking up to you will return, but it won't be overnight. I do think if she's like me she feels a lot and she will be confused. Her heart will be torn. I wouldn't force any decisions or press her to make a decision for you. I know this is hard, but if you are going to call her on her feelings (whether she wants to stay married to you) then she may feel like she will withdraw for a moment but you can bet I'd come back with a decision feeling pressured to make one. Don't let your doubts control you or influence you very much at all even on bad days. If she's like me, she'll pick up on the negativity and it won't work in your favor.<P>I don't doubt that she's been unhappy for some time. I could tell you all about me, but do you know what her needs are??? I'm not her and I can identify with pieces, but did you both do the EN questionairres? What was found there? Also, for me at least confidence and not being jittery helps a lot. I don't mean conceited, but the aura having it together is a real appealer. Worrying too much and having a droopy face only feels like one more thing I have to take care of and deal with. I don't mean you have to be perfect, but if you take on a negative perspective on it's no use in the relationship then you've shot your own marriage down-she has done no such thing at this time and unless she's pushed to she probably won't. Your behavior however has pushed her to this spot. <P>Support ways she takes care of herself like going out with girlfriends. She needs to get filled up and I would bet she wasn't taking care of herself either and so has become very low emotionally etc... This unfortunately is a real stresser for my type of person (many women actually do this destructive habit). We try to take care of everything and everyone and miss ourselves and nobody takes care of us. Is she this type of person at all??<P>Tell us more about her and what she was attracted to in you?<P>HM<p>[This message has been edited by Harmonious Melody (edited February 22, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ihope:<BR><B>I suspect once you move out your resolve may faulter too</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><B>dcope</B>, I want to point out that this is so true ... by the time I was out of the marital home (I didn't move out until the sale closed), I was so dejected and defeated that I never considered making any effort to reconcile with my XW. I just moved on immediately. Bad plan.<P>That is a darn good reason not to let you and her separate (in the sense of moving to separate quarters), and after #1 depression, it is the #2 thing to guard against in the unfortunate event that you <I>are</I> put in the position of having to move out. <P>One thing I haven't addressed until now, and which is justifiably foremost in the minds of the "remain in the home at all costs" camp (not a bad camp, but I just worry about how high those costs might be), is the legal ramifications of her being able to say you <I>abandoned</I> the marital home. <P>One thing you might do if she turns out to really want you out is to say you won't go without an agreement in place, so that she may not claim abandonment as a grounds for divorce (important: none of this is legal advice--and may not be pertinent to your particular state--which may or may not recognize certain provisions in separation agreements, so moving out under one may be abandonment under your state's law. You need to find out on your own). <P>This is a two-edged sword, because you'll likely need an attorney, then she'll get an attorney, and there may be more than a separation agreement on either or both of your minds by the time the lawyers go to work on you both. Unfortunately, it's almost certain that one lawyer cannot represent you both under your state bar's ethical rules. <P>What to do? First, remember that the need to have a separation agreement is one way to play for time ... you can take on the project of finding one to work with, then run it as slowly as you can get away with. <P>If need be, you might see if you can find a separation agreement in a book someplace--law libraries would be a good bet, either at your county courthouse or a local law school. See if she'll let you work on it on your own. You might throw in some silly stuff that you two can dispute over to slow the process (careful they're not lovebusters in and of themselves). <P>Being your own lawyers certainly isn't the greatest idea in the world, but it may be better than hiring two lawyers to go at one another on your collective nickel, especially if you can engage her and <I>seem to cooperate</I>. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 22, 2001).]

You know I was thinking today that it won't be three weeks until Sunday, and all ready we have had like 7 or 8 in depth draining relationship conversations. This is not a description of Plan A is it? I think I will not talk anymore because it's starting to be a love buster. We had a lighter conversation today and she said that maybe she just needs some time to get over the pain, that the constant talking is coming in like pressure and that it is draining her emotionally. I need to be patient. I need to keep working on being a better person. She says that we have a good day or two and then I'm there like "can we make it work now?" I'm reading alot and spending a ton of time with the kids so all in all it could be worse. I'm still in the house, and she hasn't ran for the hills yet, so I guess I still have a puncher's chance. Harmonious you touched on something that I think is very important. Maintaining a positive aura regardless of the situation. Even on the bad days push past my emotions and find something to be happy about. As far as regressing, not a chance in France. I feel to good about the changes and I refuse to allow myself to slip into that type of depression again. In the event that my wife does not give me a opportunity to win back her heart, there is no way I will get a woman to replace her down the line, 50 pounds over weight, and struggling finacially. I have to pick myself up and go forward. I just want to be strong Spiritually, Emotionally, Physically, and Mentally. What ever happens I have to be ready to handle it. Sis, dude please stop talking about divorce and divorce stratergy. I'm not even in that mindset right now. I need advice on how not to be impulsive and do things like yesterday, and put more emotional strain on my wife and marriage. I need to here about how time can make things better. I need to here positive feedback. I know in the back of my mind that there is a chance I will need a attorney at some point, but not right now. I don't think she used the word divorce yet. I think in a very strange twisted way I still control my own destiny. I think this marriage is mine to destroy by being impatient, and impulsive, and selfishly self centered. If she hasn't left yet there is a chance. Right? So my plan is to be happy, supportive, loving, understanding, considerate and patient. Don't talk relationship. Don't lovebust, and work as hard as I possibly can to get us out of this financial mess. Tell me am I on the right track here? My wife is the most devoted, loving, supportive person I ever met. All she has ever done is love the ground I walked on. She used to call me and say when are you coming home? I can't sleep without you in the house. I took her absolutely for granted. She takes alot but once she finally makes her mind up it's next to impossible to get her to change it again. She's very determined. She is very independent. I did alot of stupid stuff during our marriage and never considered the long term ramifications. The first stupid thing was I had a stag party at my house while she was at work. The boys got out of hand and strippers did more then strip and most of my friends ended up using a bunch of condoms that night. In my house. She came home and found like hair, and fingernails all over so she went in the garbage in the shed and found the used condoms. This is in our brand new house we were in the process of buying while she was about 7 months pregnant. She never forgave me for that. Then we moved and we got a comp for the first time. It took me about 3 weeks to engage in a chat room affair, that I had no interest in following through on, but it was the betrayal of trust that did tremendous damage. I called her in New Zealand, and she called me at my office, and she was destroyed by it. Then we had the stress of my mother living with us from time to time. She is a traveling nurse so sometimes in between assignments she would live with us and it caused alot of stress. Then my grandfather who suffered a couple of strokes, and had Alzheimer's lived with us and was very verbally and physically abusive to her and the kids. She was home with him everyday hateing every minute of it. That caused tremendous damage also. Then once again one night up late on line I get IM'd by some chick and ended up having a cyber sex conversation. Somehow she printed out every word and it crushed her. again. I feel like a piece of crap. Again and Again she just kept forgiving me and tried to make it work. I was so blind through this all I actually thought I was the victim. Then there was the night I came home from a party and she found lipstick near my zipper. I could not explain, and this crushed her more. She forgave. I have done alot of damage. All top of these stupid issues I let myself gain a ton of weight, and lost my business, and put us in tremendous financial jeopardy. All along she saying do something different. Get motivated, go forward we are counting on you! You are our leader. I'm sitting around feeling sorry for myself while the cable get's cut off and the gas, is cut off and her and the kids have to boil water on the stove and microwave to take baths. I'm sitting around saying you don't suck me enough. Your not sexual enough. I'm out all hours of the night drinking in strip clubs. She's home can't sleep because she has a upset stomach wondering if we are going to get evicted, becuase I'm in a depression and don't want to work. It hurts to say it because as I think about it the fact is that she is even here, is a miracle. The fact that she let's me see her in panties should be a enough for me. So after all this I get myself together for a couple of weeks and I'm pissed off and frustrated because she doesn't say ok let's go at this for another 6 years. My thoughts were as long as I never had sexual intercourse with anybody all else was fine. So I did tremendous damage, and more but I don't want to share more because I'm sure some of you are already saying she is nuts if she gives me another chance!!