<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>I believe it was Shaw who said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desparation." </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It really doesn't matter, but this was Thoroeau, not Shaw.<P>Good luck, impulsive. I hope you are able to see some improvement soon.<P>

Hi Folks,<P> Just wanted to mention that our main "purpose" here is to support each other through difficult times we may be having - or just getting a feel for how others interpret what may be happenning to us. <P> Advice can be a dangerous thing - both to give and to take. (And you know what they say about "Free Advice"!) Unless somebody has credentials to show you - AND they are VERY well acquainted with the specifics of your situation, then all "advice" you read here should be taken under advisement. <P> The last thing we should do here is encourage others to take drastic action - unless it's to get away from an abusive spouse or something along those lines. Check Dr. Harley's information on this site - you will generally find that calm, quiet, loving discussion and negotiation is the way to find a solution - rarely by ultimatum, and never by threat.<P>Just be careful folks - as bad as situations may *seem*, things can go from bad to worse if one partner decides he or she is gonna "make things happen" or "run the show".<P>KNOW who your sources of information are. We have to learn from the mistakes of others - we won't live long enought to make them all ourselves!<P>------------------<BR><B>Valiant</B>, Moderator<BR>Marriage Builders Forum<P>[This message has been edited by Valiant (edited February 28, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Valiant (edited February 28, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Keep the happy face <I>on</I>, but make clear that it's a <I>mask</I> </B><P>Sisyphus, so far in this thread you have:<P>1. Advocated that he move out, 2 weeks into Plan A, with no OP involved.<P>2. Tell his wife that he feels the situation is hopeless and he is "trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that you have pretty much concluded that she will leave you.."<P>And now, the above. Tell her his whole Plan A is a sham, an act, that he is faking.<P>I think your ignorance has crossed the line to being dangerous. You are messing with people's lives here. I hope that before anybody follows your advice they would realize where it has gotten you. <P>

Mike, <P>I am incapable of responding in kind to you. <P><B>TAFKAdcope</B> can <I>feel</I> what his situation requires. I have some faith that <I>he</I> will not misconstrue the ideas. If you want to call staying upbeat but revealing that inside you are hurting, scared, and holding to a slender reed of hope "a <B>sham</B>", there's nothing I can do to stop you. I would call it a demonstration of <I>courage</I>, as in <I>grace under pressure</I>. To <I>not</I> reveal these things allows her to paint his attitude to her in her own mind as <I>denial</I>, or worse, <I>happiness <B>because</B> of her discomfiture and the pending breakup of the marriage</I>. Neither of those two helps his case at all with her, merely reinforcing her sense that she must get out.<P>If you feel he cannot, or should not, do something like this, then tell me<BR>does she want to see:<P>ease - or effort?<BR>denial - or cognizance?<BR>depression - or determination?<BR>clutching after her - or a light touch?<BR>happiness at the situation - or torment at the now-recognized peril?<P>How can he best impart to her all of the things that she <I>needs</I> to see in order to convince her it's safe and wise to wait a while?

Congratulations all. We have "elevated" the discussion so far beyond help and debate that we have now achieved Moderator input. This is the second time I have seen Moderator input in a year of addiction, and the <B>first</B> time I have seen Moderator input in the form of admonishment!

Hi impulsive,<P>I want to give you a different perspective if I can. I am a wife who has been in withdrawal from her husband. I withdrew from my husband because he had an affair, and I know that is different from your situation. But what happens after withdrawal will be pretty much the same.<P>For most women, withdrawal happens over a long period of time or for a VERY drastic reason (like the discovery of an affair). When the connection of intimacy is broken, it takes a long time to reestablish it. It also takes a lot of trust. The comments from your wife seem to illustrate that she WANTS to believe the changes she sees in you are real and permanent, but she is not convinced of it yet.<P>Your impatience and impulsiveness are very damaging to her. They serve as little undermining episodes that lead her to suspect that the changes are really an act, and that the act is about to end. You have to give her the time to trust you and see for herself that you really ARE different now.<P>Mike explained it well. Relationships go from intimacy to conflict to withdrawal. To get from withdrawal back to intimacy your wife will need to deal with the conflict again. That includes the feelings of uncertainly that she is sharing with you. Give her more time with no pressure from you. Reassure her that you are in this for the duration, that you are committed to becoming a better person and that you want her to be there to share the new life you are working to create. But don't try to force it.<P>When she is ready to approach you on a more intimate level, respond in kind. Let her know each step of the way that you love her and are willing to wait until she is ready for the next step. I know that being patient is very difficult, but it is absolutely necessary if you want to save your relationship.<P>Your wife is afraid to let you get too close, because she is afraid of being hurt and disappointed. If you try to force her to move things along too quickly, you will find yourself facing a very firmly withdrawn woman again, and it will be much harder to overcome the next time.<P>You have been given a lot of advice on this thread, much of it conflicting advice. I really think the best thing for you would be the advice of Steve Harley. I can truly say that he has been instrumental in saving my marriage because he showed my husband how to deal with my withdrawal and overcome it. He can do the same for you.<P>Beware of ANYONE who tells you to say-this or do-this. Also, please consider this. Mike has successfully dealt with a withdrawn wife and is now in a loving restored marriage. Sisyphus is divorced, as least partly because he followed the advice he is now giving you. I think that pretty much says it all.<P>Please keep in mind that I am sharing things more from the other side, and I really wish I could be more helpful. I can promise you that recovering your marriage and making it so much better is well within your reach.<P>Best wishes,<P>Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B>Reassure her that you are in this for the duration, that you are committed to becoming a better person and that you want her to be there to share the new life you are working to create. But don't try to force it.<P>Mike has successfully dealt with a withdrawn wife and is now in a loving restored marriage. Sisyphus is divorced, as least partly because he followed the advice he is now giving you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Peppermint, you're right about the patience and not forcing things and the reassurance, and also right that I am divorced, but wrong in that what I did was <I>not</I> what I am saying now <I>may</I> help the situation (only dcope/impulsive can gauge because he is <I>right there</I> -- and I think it is important that he <I>not</I> live up to his <I>impulsive</I> name, but wait and respond with a cool head to whatever <I>requires</I> a response). <P>In the withdrawal stage, she has nothing further to tell him, is through making efforts to get a point across, and simply wants out. In the <I>conflict</I> stage, she is desperately <I>trying</I> to make a point, and if she can't <I>know</I> that it's being heard and acknowledged and acted upon, which way do you think she's going? Intimacy or withdrawal? How can he acknowledge in person when he <I>floods</I> as men <I>do</I> when the conversation turns tough? And what are the <I>elements</I> that make up an acknowledgement that allows him to stay in the fight for another round?<P>I think the elements are:<P>1. I've made a mess.<P>2. I realize you think it's too late to clean it up.<P>3. I am cleaning it up.<P>4. I don't <I>feel good</I> about the mess, even though a part of cleaning up the mess is for me to <I>feel good</I>--so when you see me feeling good, don't misinterpret that I'm feeling good about the mess.<P>5. I recognize that you don't <I>have to</I> wait here for the mess to be cleaned up--I'm <I>begging for</I> that, but I know I have no <I>right</I> to it--your <I>freedom</I> is not an issue for me.<P>6. I would like you to <I>neglect</I> the matter of the state of the marriage and not <I>dwell</I> on it for right now, so that when you look back, things are in much better shape.<P>In retrospect, I was missing 5 and 6, and my 3 was <I>weak</I>. Of 4, the only part I had was the positive attitudinal change that could be brought on by antidepressants, and sometimes that would lead to a direct challenge to 1 and 2, rather than acknowledgement. So while 4 was pleasant, and made XW feel good, XW would also find herself having to try to reinforce 1 and 2 in <I>my</I> mind by withdrawing yet again, and further each time.<P>To put it another way, if dcope/impulsive dons the happy mask, which we all agree is a mask and all agree must be maintained; and yet we all know how fearful, etc. he is inside, where is he meeting the <I>honesty</I> requirement in Harley's teachings if he does not share with W that he is no longer a slave to his moods and feelings, but is now rising above them?<P>In my marriage, when at last the bulk of these things came out in a marital workshop, they were <I>stunning revelations</I> to my XW, and produced <I>immediate</I> goodwill. What happened to that <I>goodwill</I>? On our return from the opposite corner of the country, there was a <I>delay</I> finding a marriage counselor (the best-qualified one was out of town), and when XW spoke to another, she was <I>turned off</I> by that one--and then declined join me in further attempts. <P>In retrospect, I should have been <I>much more</I> hurried and aggressive; and less selective on the counseling front. I flat ran out of time.<P>So I agree with the people who are <I>screaming</I> for dcope/impulsive to get with the Harleys. Or anybody else; especially a local, credentialed, live human being who can sit eyeball-to-eyeball with the two of them.<P>We can share our viewpoints, our particular experiences, whether successful, or unsuccessful (with the benefit of hindsight), without making <I>disrespectful judgments</I>. <P>I'm concerned because I interpret some of the posts as saying that dcope/impulsive's attitude must meet W's openly-expressed concerns with a <I>stonewall of happiness</I>. I think that would be palpably <I>dishonest</I>, and detrimental to recovery even regardless of whether W gives it credence or not.<P>Until dcope/impulsive says he has conferred with a counselor and gotten something from them, I see no problem in contrasting viewpoints being respectfully expressed--after all, this is a <B>forum</B>.

Thank you Peppermint. My wife and I had a very good positive night last night. We went to my son's hockey game and then I took the family to Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, and then I rushed her home so she could see the last episode of Temptation Island. I read the kids a bedtime story and put them to bed and then she asked me to watch t.v. with her in her bed. I said o.k. (Kicking and screaming So we are in the bed and I'm massaging her from 9:30 to 10:30 having a very pleasant time of it all. Then she says out of the blue. You know you are so calm and mellow and helpful and loving I don't know how else to describe you other then HOLY. If you were going to be with someone else would you want someone as HOLY as you are now? I said why would you ask that? She said because you don't drink anymore, you don't swear anymore, and I still do both from time to time. It just seems like we are bigger opposites then ever now. Will you be looking for someone in the Church, or someone out of the Church. I just said Listen, I am the same person I have always been. I've just come to understand that I have been very neglectful to your needs and the only thing I would ever want to do is treat you the way you deserve to be treated. I don't have to curse, and drink to be a good father and a great husband. She then invited me to sleep in the bed last night. She just said not to be mean but I've come to enjoy sleeping by myself. Then she said just don't molest me. I said I won't. Then she said you know you are so HOLY now I couldn't even imagine you being freaky in bed like you used to be. Then I fell out laughing. I said are you kidding me? She said really you are so different now. Your quiet, mellow, calm. I said I'm just walking with God, and working on being a better person. Then she said well, you can sleep in here TONIGHT. I said so you mean just tonight? She said yes just tonight I think you deserve to sleep in here from time to time. I took it as sympathy, and I kissed her on the forehead and got up and went to my couch. I went to morning worship service this morning and when I got home she met me at the door and said where did you sleep last night? I said on the couch. She said OOH I thought you went somewhere else. She said you know you didn't have to get out of the bed last night! You know things will never go forward or progress if you act that way. I said what way. She said sometimes you just have to go with the flow. Stop letting your pride get in the way. I said I was not mad. She said well you could have stayed in the bed and left well enough alone. I said ok, maybe I should have. However why didn't you leave well enough and just let me stay without making the comment you made. She said your right I should not have said anything then you would of stayed. So the moral of this story is she wanted me to stay in the bed with her last night, and because of my foolish pride I slept on the couch. The other part is I think she sees my changes as real, but she wondering if I'm to straight and narrow for her now. I think we are making progress slowly but surely. I'm a lot more patient, and very mellow. I feel like I have had a anti depressant but I haven't. She loves the changes. She is warming up but she just doesn't know how to with out feeling like she is caving in. OOHH She also said to me. Why do I keep giving in? I said what do you mean? She said I feel like such a sucker, because I keep giving in and putting myself in position to get hurt again. I said I will never hurt you again ever. She said well i just fee like I should be stronger then I am. It sounds like she lightening up. Is this as much progress as i think it is or am I reading into to much. I'm so numb and confused on some levels i can't see straight. All I know is I love this woman a ton. I will never forsake my responsibilties of meeting her needs again. The changes I've made are life long. I just hope I'm on the right path with her. Imput please!

The <I>Song of Solomon</I> makes it quite clear that eroticism and Judeo/Christianity are not at odds. But that's still a ways off in the future...<P>If she says sleep in the bed, you sleep in the bed. Period. Nothing more, nothing less. Do not <I>decline</I> to sleep in the bed when she wants you to sleep in the bed (I did that one too, and it's your own form of <I>withdrawal</I>, and one you should not give in to). Think about how far you've come ... she was talking about <I>getting you out of the house</I>, and at the time I was reading it as a <B>demand</B> on her part. <P>Tell her you're not <I>holy</I>, you're walking in <I>grace</I>, which is <I>undeserved</I> favor. Plant the seed in her mind that she might dispense a little <I>grace</I> of her own.<P>At some point, she needs to realize that she is not <I>caving in</I>--rather what she will be doing is <I>tasting the fruits of the victory she has won for both of you</I>. That's down the road a bit, don't rush it.<P>This all looks very promising. But don't neglect the Harleys or the local counseling front in this campaign.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I read the kids a bedtime story and put them to bed and then she asked me to watch t.v. with her in her bed.</B><P>Good!<P><B>So we are in the bed and I'm massaging her from 9:30 to 10:30 having a very pleasant time of it all.</B><P>Good!<P><B>I just said Listen, I am the same person I have always been. I've just come to understand that I have been very neglectful to your needs and the only thing I would ever want to do is treat you the way you deserve to be treated.</B><P>Good!<P><B>She then invited me to sleep in the bed last night.</B><P>Good!<P><B>I took it as sympathy, and I kissed her on the forehead and got up and went to my couch.</B><P><needle skips> What!??! Bad! Bad!<P>Look, she is opening the door to intimacy and affection. Don't slap her hand. The fact that she is doing this shows she is coming out of withdrawal a little. <P>What happens sometimes is that when we men are distant or strong it gets a positive reaction, we are so shocked that we blunder into still being distant because that is what was working. You probably felt great climbing onto your couch, like you had the upper hand a little. But how do you think she felt, alone in her bed? Maybe rejected?<P>If I were you, I would tell her that you are regretting not staying with her last night, and that you hope the invitation is open.<P>I'm not sure where this whole line of questioning about your 'holiness' is going, but it seems to be a concern on her part. It seems to be a part of the new you that maybe she doesn't like so much, or at least a part that is raising her suspicions or making her a little disturbed. As the spouse of a confirmed goody two shoes Sunday school teacher, I often wish I had a more fun partner. I'm not sure how you should go here...on the one hand, she may think that any change in your 'holiness" is a collapse of the whole Plan A, a peek under the mask, as it were. On the other hand, she might feel comforted that the new you will still be the fun, horny, partying guy she fell in love with.<P>I guess I would continue talking to her, and trying to see specifically what she likes and doesn't like about your behavior in this area. <P>Maybe you need to come home and say "Hey! Let's pound some f&^%$%^ beers tonite! Woo-hoo!! "

Sisyphus, <P>What do you know of the Socratic method and have you ever tried it? <P>------------------<BR>A true friend is one who not only is willing to love us the way we are, but is able to leave us better than he found us.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>What do you know of the Socratic method and have you ever tried it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Tell me how you describe the Socratic Method and whether you might have seen hints of it in my posts? And what does <B>dcope/impulsive</B> have <I>time</I> to work out on his own, versus needing to simply <I>run with</I> on the faith that it has worked (or that efforts have been damaged by its absence) before?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>Look, she is opening the door to intimacy and affection. Don't slap her hand. The fact that she is doing this shows she is coming out of withdrawal a little. <P>What happens sometimes is that when we men are distant or strong it gets a positive reaction, we are so shocked that we blunder into still being distant because that is what was working. You probably felt great climbing onto your couch, like you had the upper hand a little. But how do you think she felt, alone in her bed? Maybe rejected?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I <I>love</I> Mike's point here. Resisting her pull makes her feel bad. Overrunning her by being carried forward with any momentum she imparts to you is also bad. Your movements <I>toward</I> her are to be <I>entirely</I> dictated by <I>her</I>, with neither resistance nor presumption on your part. When she pulls, you move; when she stops pulling, you halt.<P>Remember, Plan A is not about having any of <I>your</I> needs met. Unless she <I>wants</I> to meet them; and then you don't reject, nor do you demand more, you simply accept what <I>she</I> gives (because what she is really doing is meeting <I>her</I> needs when this happens).<P>And if she later expresses regret at something she has done or allowed to be done, acknowledge her feelings ("I'm sorry you feel like it went too far, I'll be more careful of that in the future."). Let her express herself on the subject without defending yourself or blocking her out because what she's saying is painful to you. <I>Do</I> ask her not to beat herself up for wanting things that make her feel good in her life. Tell her you hope that in time she'll feel <I>safe</I> to do things like that again.

Sis, I see heavy handed didactic lectures and tons of <B>advice</B>. Points are far more effective when "thought" rather than read. Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective. Even if the answer is blatantly obvious. At least it gives the reader a little tiny bit of credit for having a mind.<P>Can you phrase your ideas and suggestions as questions? You will be less accused of being argumentative and destructive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective. Even if the answer is blatantly obvious.<P>Can you phrase your ideas and suggestions as questions?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I post with plenty of question marks where they are called for (I'm sure you can find 'em)--and typically don't see any answers. The problem with the Socratic method is that it may require more time than is available, and even the <I>obvious</I> answers may not come when emotional strain is extreme (imagine a seargeant saying: "Hear that sound? Do you think it's an incoming mortar? If it is, what do you think you should do about it?"). <P>What would you have me do when I sense both urgency and either paralysis or pending precipitous action?<P>I don't think anybody has all the keys, but we can share our experience, strength and hope--with enough detail to allow the readers to see if there are parallels to their situation or not. Where there are counterpoints, I hope people will express them without calling someone names. But that's beyond my control.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited March 01, 2001).]

Hey dcope/impulsive<P>I have been thinking a lot about you the past couple of days. As I re-read your posts, I realize how similar our situations are. The biggest difference though, is the absence of an OP. Some times I envy you for this, but mostly I thank God that you do not have to go through this. You have come a long way, and still have a long way to go. Stick it out buddy. Your W seems to be confused about things. I believe she makes comments to you about how you will come out of this on top, but she won’t because she has not realized that what you are doing is to come out on top for both of you. She does not see this <I>YET</I>, but I believe that she will.<P>I also believe from your recent posts that she is starting to look for validation on feelings she is not sure of. She wants her EN met, but is afraid. Don’t let your pride get in the way. Give her the EN she asks for, but be prepared to step back. This will not be easy, but I have faith you.<P>I am pulling for you, man. I look forward to see how your progress is coming along. Have faith in God.<P>Stay the course, my friend, stay the course.<P>Griz<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>Therefore, asking pointed questions is extremely effective.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So....Karenna, how come you never check your hotmailaccount?<BR>

Hi again,<P>Your description of the evening was very enlightening. Your wife is clearly showing signs of moving away from withdrawal.<P>As to why she makes the comments like the one you mentioned about being holy, she is looking for more reassurance from you that you really ARE different. She is kind of testing you to see how you will do with these questions. Will you answer them calmly and thoughtfully or will you be sarcastic and short-tempered.<P>Here's my take on the sleeping together thing. I don't really think sleeping on the couch was such a bad idea. Her comments were still all part of the testing she is doing right now. Remember this, all women want to be wanted. Even if she doesn't want you intimately right now, she still wants some reassurance that you still find her attractive and are interested in her sexually. You just have to walk a fine line there. If she questions you further about leaving the bed, it is okay to tell her that you didn't want to make a mistake and try to push things too quickly, but that you are still very attracted to her and find it hard to ignore those feelings of attraction.<P>I am not advising you to "put on a happy face", in fact I think you should be very honest about your feelings. But I also think it is very important to put your wife's feelings first right now.<P>You are definitely making very good progress, and I think the fact that you can tell your wife likes the changes she sees and is starting to feel more confident in them is a most positive sign. Just keep up the good work, and please seriously consider getting some professional counseling. Your marriage is worth it.<P>Peppermint<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B> Remember this, all women want to be wanted. Even if she doesn't want you intimately right now, she still wants some reassurance that you still find her attractive and are interested in her sexually.</B><P>lol....funny you say that. I struggled with this last year....my wife would act annoyed at SF pressure or sexually-oriented affection, so I'd get my feelings hurt and be distant, turn down a few initiatives from her....and it would just destroy her, she'd look like a little kid, a puppy in the rain. Like, the one thing she can in life is my sex drive. Well...she has self-esteem issues mixed in to....as you say, it is a fine line.<P>I like your posts, Peppermint.<BR>

Mike,<P>Thank you. I do know things from a woman's perspective, especially a WITHDRAWN woman's perspective.<P>And I do see real hope for impulsive's marriage, don't you?<P>Peppermint