<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>You know I could be wrong but I think I may be breaking through slowly. She seems to be gravitating around me lately and asked for affection today? Is this a good sign. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Definitely a good sign. If I had been posting this weekend I would have suggested a "temperature check" -- meaning a casual interrogation -- to find out whether she wanted you there or you would just be <I>imposing yourself</I> if you went. <P><I>If</I> you can keep doing the massages without starting to feel so warm and fuzzy that relationship talk ensues, that's fine. I was never concerned that you were trying to go in an erotic direction, but when Mike and I were so at odds, that wasn't the time to add fuel to the fire by trying to make that point. My "invite yourself to the bedroom" or words to that effect were simply directed toward the natural desire to return from exile, not get physical. <P>I'm not sure I agree with changing your screen name and trying to throw a potentially lurking W off the scent. My XW hated that I was on here and considered it a terrible betrayal (but I was also posting in a "slow" section of the boards where I was getting relatively non-helpful advice [or rather, validation of some misconceptions] from a single person, rather than here in the EN board or over on D/D). I think spouses should be gratified that we <I>give a damn</I>, if only belatedly sometimes. If you're running a mere "<I>strategy</I>" that they can't know about, I feel the substance of a real <I>Plan A</I> may be lacking. These should not be surface changes just to get W to recommit. These must be heartfelt, lifelong, and recognized as <I>mainly</I> for your own benefit <I>as being a better human being</I> regardless of whether they are <I>successful</I> in preserving the marriage on paper, or the existence of <I>any</I> relationship whatsoever with your spouse (although if you do things right, that should not be an issue). <P>I could, in fact, foresee a situation where a "<I>loser</I>" spouse could slingshot beyond the spouse who was contemplating divorce (in terms of the first spouse's personal growth), such that the second spouse would be momentarily comfortable, then uncomfortable again for less-justifiable reasons (anger that it took so long, perhaps combined with a sense of <I>distance</I> born of now being "behind the curve"). My paradigm for this effect would be the alcoholic whose enabling wife is fed up, so he becomes sober, and the marriage still goes bust because <I>she</I> is unable to cope with his (virtually all positive) changes. There must be some literature around on how to prevent this. One obvious strategy would be <I>gradualism</I>. <P>But as to a spouse <I>knowing about</I> Plan A, I would think that a direct statement about it wouldn't be believed, and might lead to a spouse trying to consciously or unconsciously undermine it; but if the spouse finds out on their own through snooping, they may in fact feel enjoined from commenting on or attempting to affect it (of course, that all depends on the spouse's personality and how far they are into withdrawal). <P>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 26, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 26, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>You know I could be wrong but I think I may be breaking through slowly. She seems to be gravitating around me lately and asked for affection today? Is this a good sign. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that is great!! Hard to put a negative spin on a withdrawn spouse asking for affection. <P>I think the way to handle this is to not be verbally querying her all the time on what she wants, because, frankly, half the time she won't know, and the other half it willlead to another grim relationship talk. Try to be highly sensitive to non-verbal signs and signals. My W called this stage "Mike walking on eggshelss" and while she said it annoyed her somewhat, I think it probably annoyed her far lkess that the other strategy for working through this awkward period, which would be constant verbal sparring. I think she also appreciated the concern it conveyed.<P>If your W is lurking here looking for clues to your strategy, I congratulate you. She is showing more interest than most withdrawn spouses would.<P>I think you are on track. Keep it up! Time and patience....<P>Mike <P> <BR>

Well here is a new twist. We talked today about life in general. I was telling her about how I lost the ability to dream for a long time. She says that she is so proud of me and the changes that I made and that she thinks that this is the real deal. Then she said she has a feeling that I am going to come out of this thing in very good shape. She thinks she is going to come out of this thing in terrible shape. I repressed the desire to tell her that I can make her happy. I just told her that she will be fine. She seems to be a little annoyed at the fact that I'm making the changes now. She says she is totally confused now, and has no idea what direction she is going in. She says she has soul searching to do. I just kind of left the convesation there, but I didn't know what to say when she said I'm going to be ok and she's going to be very messed up at the end of this. She also said that she is so frustrated that I didn't make these changes earlier when she could have benefited from them. I don't know if this is progress or not. Is this a positive or negative?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B><BR>She says that she is so proud of me and the changes that I made and that she thinks that this is the real deal. Then she said she has a feeling that I am going to come out of this thing in very good shape.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>A major goal of Plan A is to have your spouse come to see you as an attractive mate, even if they've not been in such a fog as to actually leave for someone else. Sounds like very good progress.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>She says she is totally confused now...<P>...so frustrated that I didn't make these changes earlier when she could have benefited from them. I don't know if this is progress or not. Is this a positive or negative? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, you did know that you were running uphill, in sand, right? Two steps forward, one step slipping back still gets you to the top of the hill, IF you don't quit.<P>Reread my earlier post and Mike C2's where we both discussed the state of conflict. It will take a while to get to intimacy.<P>Stay the course! Two steps forward, one back, two steps forward...I think you're getting there.<P>Steve<p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited February 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She thinks she is going to come out of this thing in terrible shape. I repressed the desire to tell her that I can make her happy. I just told her that she will be fine.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's tough to not take the bait (that was a relationship-testing question, and you successfully resisted the urge to <I>push</I>)! Now, this is a question that will come back in various forms, and <I>over time</I>, you will be able to answer it in increasingly concrete and foward-looking ways. That's good too, even though it presents new and kaleidoscopically different risks every time it comes up (because it comes up as the last link in different emotional cascades). <P>If you can, try and pick the <I>low point</I> for her particular complaint (if you can ascertain it) in your recent past. The point from which there has been nothing but relatively steady progress. <P>That point becomes the <I>anchor</I> from which all such questions are answered in the future. You will say something like "I know it's going to be tough to even think about forgiving what happened in the past, but think about where you are now compared to <insert bad time here>. I don't want you to feel any <I>pressure</I> to stay, but know that no matter what happens, I <I>won't</I> let that happen again. If you have anger that you need to let out, I'm here to <I>listen</I>." Over time, an answer like that becomes (at the very end of her finding herself thinking like this) "Look at <I>how far we've come</I>. You never thought it possible. Why would you throw that away now? Where else can you go and have things be better?"<P>Your challenge is to give her appropriate outlets to expend the anger without having to pack up and leave. Which means you are going to be a punching bag for a while. <P>If you can get her to her <I>general practitioner</I> for an antidepressant (or to get hers rotated), now might be about the time for it. Try to avoid her getting to a psychiatrist for individual counseling. You don't <I>know</I> whether that would help or hinder. If she <I>can</I> be steered toward a pastor, you can be more comfortable that the advice given will be supportive of keeping the family intact. This is a very touchy area. Don't overplay your hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I was telling her about how I lost the ability to dream for a long time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Just noticed this. It was depression (happened to me too). <I>She</I> may have played a large part in it, at the very least she didn't help you much with it. It's likely she didn't know her part in it, nor how to really help you, and possibly it never even dawned on her that there was a significant problem with your mental and emotional state.<P>Don't blame her, and don't look to her for your salvation either. <I>You</I> be in charge.<P>The ability to dream doesn't come back right away either, unless you work at it. What do you want? Not just in terms of money or possessions, but <I>life</I>. I believe it was Shaw who said "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desparation." Well, that needn't be the case. Search your feelings occasionally for signs of it. When you feel it, deal with it early.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 27, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She also said that she is so frustrated that I didn't make these changes earlier when she could have benefited from them. I don't know if this is progress or not. Is this a positive or negative? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, this may be WS-speak for saying that she wouldn't have had the affair if things had been going better.<P>I think that you might use an analogy with her that I used with my W at this stage, and it was helpful in managing her expectations. <P>Mike's Analogy<P>Our marriage got off track. We wandered down the wrong road. For many years, we followed this trail where we were mean to one another, didn't meet each other's needs, took each other for granted, got further away from the right road....headed from the light to the dark. Now we are heading back the right way, out of the dark, toward the right road. It won't take all the years that the original journey took, but it won't be done in a day or a week. But each week, things should get better, get brighter, get lighter. This journey will be more enjoyable, because we will see improvement instead of deterioration.<P>I don't expect you to believe I know the way, or have faith in my direction, because I helped us get lost in the first place. I only ask that you stay with me, open your heart when you can, watch for improvement, watch for things getting brighter. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited February 27, 2001).]

I'm really getting a little confused here. I did my best today. I don't engage her in relationship conversation or pressure. Today she says she is really frustrated. I'm growing as a person, doing soul searching and seem very happy, and rejoiceful. She feels like she's screwed! She feels like she can't win. I did all the damage to the marriage and I'm the one getting my self together and going forward and looking good, and changing as a person, She feels like she busted her butt to make it work all that time and I did nothing, and now I'm getting it together and she's screwed! I didn't know what to say. I want to say you don't have to be screwed if you open up a little bit and let me show you how happy I can make you. Somehow I know I should not say that so I didn't. I feel terrible for her. I can lead her to water but I can't make her drink. She is so stubborn. She refuses to give one inch. She said today after I went a bought a couple of outfits that I look great. She feels confused and trapped some how. She feels like the only way to be happy is to go in a direction she doesn't feel like going in. I don't know what this is. Is it progress, or is it a dead end? Help I getting some what confused myself! I'm not acting happy and rejoiceful, I'm just not walking around like my best friend died. I'm getting up everyday and keeping a positive attitude and she see's it as rejoiceful. Talk about damned if you do damned if you don't. Help!!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Today she says she is really frustrated. I'm growing as a person, doing soul searching and seem very happy, and rejoiceful. She feels like she's screwed! She feels like she can't win.</B><P>Can you tell me exactly what she said? What her words were?<P>By the way, I apologize, up above I said something about an affair, I had you momentarily confused with myohmy's case. Serves you right for changing your name <P>Did you read it and go "An affair!! Oh NO! Holy cr*p!!! Even Mike knows!!!" <P>Anyway, here are the three certainties in your situation, dealing with a withdrawn mate:<P>1. She will have to go through the conflict stage in order to get to intimacy from withdrawal.<P>2. She will test the new..er...whatever your name is now, to see if it is an act, to see if your old lovebusting self is right there under the surface.<P>3. She will be mercurial, moody, volatile, insert your favorite like adjective.<P>You have to sort of insulate your mood from her moodiness, your resolve from her depression, your...something..from her....whatever. I'm tired. You get the point. Plan A is about you, not about the change you HOPE it brings day one or week one or month one from your mate.<P>Be sure that there aren't any REAL issues under this...like, she isn't mad that you spent money on clothes, is she? I mean be ultra sensitive to any bona fide complaints she has with your actions, but also be prepared for moodiness. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Today she says she is really frustrated. I'm growing as a person, doing soul searching and seem very happy, and rejoiceful. She feels like she's screwed! She feels confused and trapped some how. Is it progress, or is it a dead end? I'm not acting happy and rejoiceful, I'm just not walking around like my best friend died. I'm getting up everyday and keeping a positive attitude and she see's it as rejoiceful.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's progress toward a very delicate turning point.<P>What follows is best delivered to her in written form, because things will otherwise get out of control.<P>You need to counter this particular cascade of negative thoughts at all costs. Tell her that <I>you</I> feel trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that <I>you</I> have pretty much concluded that <I>she</I> will leave you and you will go into a long downward spiral of depression and anger over it, and that you realize your only <I>slim</I> hope is to make lasting changes in <I>yourself</I>. Tell her that your seeming seeming joyfulness only masks your fear and dread, but it's your effort to pull up your internal feelings by your outside behavior's bootstraps. Tell her <I>you</I> trapped yourself over time without realizing it, and now realize you are trapped in your own personal hell of marital disintegration; while her new thinking has actually set her free, because she knows she can leave the marriage if she decides to do so: There is no force you can bring to bear that will override a judge.<P>Ask her to <I>ignore</I> the marriage for a while, like a farmer lets a worn-out field lie fallow for a time, and look to some outside hobbies or activities that will make her happier. Tell her you feel like she has <I>every right</I> to do this; and if after she does it for a while she is still troubled, she can look back at you, at herself and her children and <I>then</I> make some final decisions what to do. <P>Write that you love her and will always love her, whatever her decision.<P>With any luck, she will do exactly what you recommend. If not, you hope it will at least <I>confuse</I> her for long enough to shake her resolve.<P>This may not work ... but it counters the thought that she's trapped, that you are happy-go-lucky, and that she needs to act right now. Remember, you're playing for time while new thinking slowly strangles the roots of some really bad weeds that grew from neglect.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B> Tell her that <I>you</I> feel trapped in a hole that you will never dig out from, that <I>you</I> have pretty much concluded that <I>she</I> will leave you and you will go into a long downward spiral of depression and anger over it, </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Susyphus, what are you, the freaking Blair Witch? Get out of here with this terrible advice. You are like the guy yelling "jump" up at a window ledge.<P>Imp, stay upbeat, stay positive, absorb her fears, be her support during this time period.<P>

Mike, I respectfully disagree. At this critical juncture, she needs to be given some sense of his sincerity, and how much <I>effort</I> is being put forth by him--but not in verbal form where there can be one of those damn talks. Keep the happy face <I>on</I>, but make clear that it's a <I>mask</I> for <I>both their</I> benefit, not something mockingly waved in her face.<P>My view is they are <I>looking</I> for some <I>contrition</I>, however, being a downcast individual and/or groveling is one example of how husbands get in this predicament of having the wife lose faith in the first place. And grim determination just makes things -- grim. But there's still a <I>message</I> to be delievered with respect to what's going on <I>inside</I> him ... so that she doesn't get the wrong idea.<P>It's my view that women are <I>looking for something</I> when they express these concerns. It is a bid for some sort of reassurance ... which is in competition with the desire to <I>not</I> believe reassurance so that it can all be <I>over</I>. <P>If anybody knows a way to deal with this or thinks they have a better idea or thinks just <I>stonewalling it</I> is a better idea, I'm open to hearing their thinking.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 28, 2001).]

Yes Sisyphus - I think it is probably best as you have said, that dcope let his W know that he is doing his best in a difficult situation, not trying to get swallowed up or go spiralling into dissary and that's what's really going on inside himself. If I was his wife, I would feel very gratified knowing that he was going through something himself for my benefit. Sometimes appearances aren't always what they seem (the nice clothes, happy smiles, etc) and the other party may feel threatened by these appearances, that perhaps their spouse has "moved on" and isn't trying hard enough and is the one going to come up shining. Dcope's wife, I think, is looking for reasons to keep the marriage going but through all the hurt and suffering, she can't quite envisage that yet as being a possible outcome. She needs to know that dcope can sustain his promises and good intentions and not just give up the minute times get tough. I'm a woman, going through some tough times myself, and this is what I read as dcope's wife's motivation. I absolutely detest stonewalling, can't see it serving any good purpose towards reparation. Although, dcope's wife's stonewalling seems justified to me at this time; until he can go the distance to prove that he really is sorry for past mistakes and that a better life can be built. That takes work.

PS: I have to introduce myself: I am just starting out myself with couselling from Steve Harley as I am so overwhelmed by the problems of my own very probably marriage breakup. Anyway, these marriage difficulties are so convoluted, it's heartening to know that maybe there are some likely ways of getting the love back in there (eg, adding love units, avoiding LBs etc) They're great ideas. I have been following this subject now for a few days and am very interested to find out how each day's progress is going.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B> Susyphus, what are you, the freaking Blair Witch? Get out of here with this terrible advice. You are like the guy yelling "jump" up at a window ledge.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Mike's right, but there is a little core of truth to Sis's suggestion also. Sis, you are NOT being objective. dcope/imp is NOT in your marriage. The core truth is that eating dirt might help. As in helping to validate her feelings. But it is also a fallacy. If he overstates her feelings it truly will push her over the edge and into a divorce or separation she would not dare go to on her own volition. Him stating it first is a HUGE mistake.<P>Even eating dirt won't do anything constructive. Just trying to put the negative past to rest. The way to improve the relationship and get back into a marriage is through proactive positive steps. Such as meeting her EN's and being a good, happy and friendly friend.<P>Negativity is too easy. Ignore Sisyphus. The good stuff is mingled with too much dangerous advice. Mike has better ideas and a successful perspective. Get some Harley counseling before you go negative again. Until then, LISTEN to her. And don't go beyond validating her stated feelings. Don't put WORDS OR FEELINGS IN HER MOUTH!!!!! Ever.<P>

Impulsive,<P>I've been following your journey towards rebuilding your marriage here, and know it must be so difficult for you. You have made some real progress. Keep up the good work.<P>I have noticed, in following your situation, that my own internal responses to what you write come up over and over again. I feel compelled to share them with you, for what it's worth.<P>I get anxious hearing your desperation, impatience with the process, and result-driven frenzy. I hear that you are trying to mellow out but are barely able to contain yourself. I'm sure your wife must sense that too. <P>If I was your wife, I would be afraid, plain and simple. Afraid you might swing the other way and betray me again, like you did on so many other occasions. Afraid your changes are only temporary and you will go back to your old ways as soon as I give in and let down my guard. Afraid to place hope in our future, only to have that hope come crashing down around me again - this time hurting more than before. Who wants to bare that pain, yet again? Each time hope is crushed, it is harder to hope again. One becomes more cautious and protective of one's self. <P>Your wife already has a wounded heart and is going to be very protective of it - much like a cut that one takes care of so as not to re-injure it. Her heart is still healing, and that can't be rushed. It really can't.<P>It took many years to get to this place with your wife - it will take a while, (not 2 or 3 weeks,) to rebuild the trust and allow your wife to heal and feel safe again with you. <P>This journey is a process, not an event. Please let go of your drive for results and proof that all is well in your marriage. If you are doing what you need to do, things will occur naturally. Let them occur naturally. I say this because there are so many indications that your wife still has feelings for you. You are lucky. She's just scared. And hurt. The more pressure you place, the scarier she seems to get and the more she wants to run. <P>You're both doing a dance. You move in close, (just a little,) she moves in close - (just a little) you move in closer, (too close!!) she backs away - (Not safe enough.) You retreat, get scared - then pursue too strongly in a desperate attempt to get close again. She runs further away. Then you ease up, gently approach again - (just enough for her to feel safe,) she moves in a little closer. Then you move in too close in desperation, and so on... <P>You can change the rhythm of the dance to a slow and easy one. Ease up, ok. There's no rush.<P>I think a big turning point for you occurred when you finally confessed to your part in the marriage difficulties here. Good for you!!! When you realized that you had hurt her so badly and betrayed her regularly. There is strength in viewing the situation from the other persons side. <P>Patience, not impulse, is your strongest ally.<P>Best wishes,<BR>hopefulheart

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karenna:<BR><B>If he overstates her feelings it truly will push her over the edge and into a divorce or separation she would not dare go to on her own volition. Him stating it first is a HUGE mistake.<P>Don't put WORDS OR FEELINGS IN HER MOUTH!!!!! Ever.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think he would be putting words in her mouth. He would be putting <I>his</I> deepest darkest fears on paper. I think she has already been clear about her feelings.<P>He is expressing his <I>cognizance</I> of how far her thinking has already gone ... if some <I>small</I> part of what he writes is farther than she has already gone, I don't believe she will be highly motivated to make it thinkable. Rather, she will be ready to offer reassurance.<P>One of her <I>deepest</I> needs right now is to have <I>him</I> show some understanding of how badly she hurts, and how much he has to answer for. Demonstrating understanding like that <I>should</I> make her <I>more</I> willing to engage in the rebuilding process, or should at least move her to put her escape plan in neutral.<P>Her impression that <I>his</I> improvements in dress and attitude are <I>mocking</I> her negative psychological state ... must somehow be ameliorated. The approach I'm advocating attempts to convince her of the falsity of its premises (by telling her just how ripped up inside he really is--these are facts outside of herself that she may not be aware of), but asks her not to fight her trapped, hopeless and devastated feelings (which would be seen by her as an attempt to <I>invalidate</I> them), instead to pause to allow them to dissipate.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 28, 2001).]

Hopeful heart, <BR>Those were some very thoughtful word is your post. I think your perception of the situation is right on. I have acted impulsively from time to time and everytime I have it has hurt my cause. I think she is really starting to notice the sincerity of my changes. She asked me today. "Now that you are so holy now, is it possible for you to be a good person without having God in your life? I was taken aback by that question. She said she notices that since I've been in church I'm a totally different person. I do things she didn't know I knew how to do. I'm so mellow, I'm so nice. She wants to know will I be the same way if I stop going to church. I hesisitated because it sounded like a trick question. Where is she coming from with this line of questioning? She also told me that I look skinnier and skinnier everyday, so I don't know what's happening but there is something going on. My coping mechanism is totally ignoring my urges. For sex, for affection, and conversation. Am I on the right track her? Can someone please give me some perspective on what's going on here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Where is she coming from with this line of questioning?</B><P>She's testing the new you, wondering whether she can trust it to be there and be stable. <P>Maybe she has had her own religious faith wax and wane, and if your changes are all based on religion, she may feel that she can't trust them to be permanent.<P>Anyway, you are right about your impulsive nature hurting things. Plan A takes a lot of discipline. It is easier to lovebust or confront sometimes than it is to stay cool and be calm.<P>Mike <P><BR> <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She asked me today. "Now that you are so holy now, is it possible for you to be a good person without having God in your life? I hesisitated because it sounded like a trick question. Where is she coming from with this line of questioning?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Women believe faith in God gives men some compass for their behavior other than a simple aim of gratifying themselves. <P>You tell her you <I>can't</I> be a good person without <I>God</I> in your life, therefore church is a must (if you can pick up a small group, or bible study before services ... quietly do so). Be sure to resist any of her efforts to <I>challenge</I> your churchgoing by somehow derailing you with a differing suggestion or demand on your time.<P>As to the weight loss, be sure to keep the protein up, but with at least some carbs (no Atkins), for a handful of meals a day that start big and get smaller toward bedtime. If you lose your energy level due to lack of appetite, you will be in trouble.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited February 28, 2001).]