<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I'm in desparate need of feedback right now. I have to go on with my life.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe it is a lack of coffee this AM, but your analogies are going right over my head. Could you just tell me some of what she said? I think we know how you feel.<P>Was the telemarketer analogy hers? NBecause that shows that she has a problem trusting or believing your changes, which mercurial behavior will bring about.<P>You seem, again, to want to solve eveything with a relationship talk that gets her to commit to the marriage or state that she is in love with you again. Neith of these things will take place in the context of a relationship talk initiated by you. AND bopth are probably quite premature, given the erratic nature of your Plan A (sorry, but I'm being blunt)<P>Change your name to "Patient" continue Plan Aing, and stop trying to solve everything in a day, my friend. If you want an analogy....It is like you are building a house, which takes 6 months, and it is week 2, and you are sitting in the foundation wanting to give up because you are cold and wet.

Let's get back to Harley's basic definition (I've added emphasis here and there):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, Disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the <B>anger, disrespect and demands</B> of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover. <P>On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again. <P>In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs <B>after the affair has ended.</B> Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. <B>Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness. </B><P>A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and <B>making each other favorite leisure-time companions</B> goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof. <P>In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse <B>equally responsible</B> for following the overall plan. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, what do I glean from this? Plan A won't work without your wife's involvement in it. Plan A won't work if you are just pushing for reconnection straightaway. Plan A won't work if you and your wife are in conflict. Plan A won't work if you don't spend time together in your off-hours. Plan A won't work if either of you is away a lot. <P>In short, you're missing some elements of a Plan A through no fault of your own. Other elements <I>are</I> yours to control. It's kind of like the controllers of Apollo 13 sitting down and saying, "Well, what's still <I>working</I> on the vehicle?" The more skillfully you work with what you <I>do</I> have, the better shot you have to build or acquire the missing pieces so that you can get home. <P>Also, realize that Plan A is posited for the affair scenario. <I>If</I> there isn't actually an affair or emotional attachment (still uncertain), you'll need to work out adjustments to what you're going to do, and what you're going to seek.<P>This may be a bitter pill to swallow, but I think one thing you might want to consider is rolling out the <I>Policy of Joint Agreement</I> in regards to where she wants the marriage to go (this unacceptable "roommate" type thing). Sit down and horsetrade, with the goal of having well-defined roles and expectations--somewhat <I>below</I> the total reconnection you expect, somewhat <I>above</I> the disconnection she expects.<P>For instance, negotiate to foreclose either of you from spending leisure time in the company of the opposite sex. Negotiate that "for appearances sake" she will let you take her out once a week, will react appropriately in front of the children if you bring flowers, etc., and that anything <I>physical</I> that occurs between you will be without pressure, and wil be <I>no-strings</I>. Also, you won't be hanging out in strip clubs, etc.; and will be working with her on financial arrangements for the both of you and for the kids, and that you will let her in to that world so that nothing is concealed or incomprehensible to her. You and she should agree that you will talk to each other and listen to each other about important things. <P>What are you doing here? You're trying to ease her out of withdrawal, through conflict, and to a level of <I>intimacy</I> that <I>she</I> is comfortable with. Once you convince her she's not going to drown in a tub that has an inch of water, and actually get her into it; you can start to <I>gradually</I> raise the water level. <P>The talks are actually <I>good</I>, except that you're hearing things that are so painful to you that you're flooding, and saying <B><I>No! No! No!</I></B> instead of actually <I>negotiating</I>. <P>You don't get people to love you by telling them that they can't have whatever it is they think they want. That makes you an <I>obstacle</I>, not an object of affection. <P>I think you can get a better agreement out of her now than you could have a month ago. Her words may be the same, but the negotiated movement you can get toward intimacy will be much greater. Take what you can get, then live within those ground rules. Herbert Hoover used to say "Prosperity is just around the corner." Although he was <I>wrong</I> of course, I think its relationship analogue does apply in this instance.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She is saying you go up the hill by yourself. Get to the top by yourself and MAYBE one day I'll meet you up there. The hard part for me is letting go. Seeing so clearly that we can be happy if she allows her self to just take a few steps and see that we have lightened our load tremendously and we are so close to the top.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can't find fault with your wife's perspective. You're trying to convince her that <I>you</I> know what's good for <I>her</I>, which isn't going to give her the impression that you have much respect for her. You're smothering her.<P>Also, she needs to know what kind of person you are when you are not focused on <I>getting what you want</I> from her. (In this case, you want her to commit herself to your marriage.)<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'm the telemarketer saying but really I have the check in my hand. I can send it but you have to show trust by sending me more money this time too.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And why <I>should</I> she trust you? You haven't exactly demonstrated that it was a wise thing for her to do in the past; and what's worse, <I>you can't even trust yourself</I>! You keep talking about throwing in the towel and starting over, when you've barely gotten past the starting gates on <I>this</I> effort to restore your marriage. If your wife were reading your posts here, she would get the impression of a desperately sincere guy who really <I>can't</I> be trusted to stay the course.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>We are at the same place we were at 2 months ago when all this started. She doesn't want to get back in the relationship. She wants us to continue getting on with our lives in the same house together. I'm dying here. The prospect that I've wasted 2 months of agony and pain and I'm at square one is suffucating.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are <I>not</I> where you were 2 months ago. You've said yourself that you've experienced personal growth. <I>That's</I> not a waste. And your wife wants to stay in the same house. That's terrific! Think of all the opportunities you will have to show her what kind of a man you really are or can become!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As I see it I have two choices. I can continue up the hill by myself while my neck is turned toward her watching her go the other way, or I can turn around and run up the hill by myself towards happiness without ever looking back and totally ignoring the possibilties of us ever reuniting.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is what is known as a "false dichotomy". The <I>illusion</I> that there are only two possibilities when there are actually many. Sisyphus had an excellent suggestion about you sitting down with your wife and negotiating an agreement that you can both live with.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I can't focus on our marriage any longer it's way to exsausting. It takes to much emotional energy from both of us. She says that I have to get on with my life. I take that as she would rather I do the latter scenario also. Has anyone else ever had a setback of this magnitude.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sure, I've experienced tiny little setbacks. From <I>my</I> perspective, you haven't <I>had</I> a setback of any significance. You want a major setback? How about coming home from work to find that the movers have been there and all your wife's stuff is gone? How about your wife refusing to communicate with you in any way, shape, or form? For <I>months</I>, with no end in sight. How about your wife filing for divorce and telling all kinds of lies about you <I>under oath</I>?<P>And tbat's just <I>my</I> story. There are plenty of people on these forums that have stories making <I>mine</I> seem like a pleasant walk in the park!<P>I'm not denying the reality of your pain and frustration. Your feelings are deep, real, and understandable. But are you going to act on the basis of your feelings, or on the basis of the facts?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If I go up the hill by myself without looking back wouldn't that be the same as giving up. She says that If I get to the top maybe she will come and meet me, maybe tommorrow, maybe never. However it's important that I get there for my sake and the kids sake.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know something? I think your wife is right. You need to go to the top of the hill <I>by yourself</I>. Stop frequently to turn around and smile at your wife, and then when you get to the top set up a nice, enticing camp site where your wife can see it.<P>That's <I>not</I> giving up on your wife. That's giving up <I>control</I> of your wife.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited March 22, 2001).]

Well Before I left for work this morning I just asked in passing about the possibilties of a quickie. Let's just say she presented very little resistence. We had a very gratifying SF session. I had a different perspective afterwards. I came to the realization that I could be in worse shape, and I am being impatient. If she is still willing to be in the house, and willing to have sex from time to time, then I guess I shouldn't press the marriage issue. I'm trying to stay focused on the positives and less of the negatives. It is definetly a trust me that I changed issue at play here. She wants to trust me but she can't quite bring herself to because she stayed in the relationship far longer then she wanted to, because she didn't have the heart to leave me or tell me she wanted out. That is why it's so hard for her to go back because she felt trapped for so long. She also feels that I'm spoiled and I say anything to get my way. I have a reputation as being very persuasive when I want to be. She sees it as a issue of me finally finding a situation were I can't talk my way out of it. <p>[This message has been edited by dcope (edited March 22, 2001).]

I'm a little confused right now. I had a talk with the W today because there was something that was driving me nuts. I went to church this morning for early move prayer service. I left feeling uplifted and positve and very good from top to bottom. I cam home and she notice that I had makeup on the shoulder of my shirt. She mad a very snide comment like "Good for you" "I'm happy you have make up on you shirt". What happened at that point was I felt like I was stuck with a knife and she twisted it with her statement. I lost the ability to argue or defend myself. All the joy I had from my church experience as drained out of my body like a car's battery with the lights left on. This was the second time in as many days that she has said things to really hurt and frustrate the heck out of me. Yesterday while taking my son to school she basically yelled at me because I missed a homework assignment he was supposed to do. I stood up half the night cooking,cleaning, doing laundry and caring for the kids and just because I missed one homework assignment I was made to feel like crap. I felt again like I'm doing my best. I'm trying my hardest and when I make a mistake I get trashed like I'm not doing anything at all. So I sat her down today and told her that I really feel like she draining the joy right out of me and that I'm starting to hate coming home. I'm trying my best and nothing seems good enough anymore. She said she was very sorry and that wasn't her intention but that she has been very frustrated because she see's the changes I made an she appreciates the fact that I recognize the mistakes I've made over the years but that she hates that I'm not listening to her when she says she's doesn't want the marriage. She see's me trying to impress her with change as me being selfish and only wanting what I want. I told her that she is right that I should not have pressured her in the past but that I felt that if I could just get her to see that the changes were real then we had a chance. She said that we are not on the same page. She just wants to remain friends and not focus on the marriage at all. She referenced the marriage builders forum. She said that she was uncomfortable being nice to me because she saw that being nice to me was like leading me on. She said I saw were you wrote about the time I gave you a pillow, and you thought it was a positive sign. It should not have been looked upon as that, I was just trying to be nice. You took it somewhere I didn't want it to be. So she says that's why she is so rude lately because if she's nice it raises my expectations, and she doesn't want my expectations raised. I'm lost right now. I've backed away and stop pressuring and she's getting ruder and ruder because she doesn't want to be nice? How do I win here? What's happening is my love bank account is slowly shrinking and I don't know what to do. I can't be nice to her because she doesn't want it because it make her feel guilty and obligated, and she won't be nice to me because she thinks it raises my expectations. So whe are in the same house, and same bed unable to make lovebank deposits because of the fear of her reaction and her fear of my reactions. help!

Do you have pastor or priest or anybody you can go to now? Counseling is needed. Maybe a good counselor would help to motivate her to soften a bit for the sake of the children.<P>How is the income situation? Is she working? Are you still working two jobs? Are your bills paid up?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I had a talk with the W today because there was something that was driving me nuts.</B><P>Your Taker was driving you nuts. He is supposed to be chained to the furnace, remember? <P>She is in withdrawal, Impy. You have to let time and your actions change that. If you ask her how she feels, you are probably going to get an answer you don't like. If you put demands on her in terms of your needs, she is going to smack you down, like she just did. <P>I don't know any other way to explain this again. You are back in bed, at her insistence....that is progress. You are having occasional lovemaking sessions. That is progress. She is noting your changes. TIP. She is not trying to throw you out. TIP. This is all great stuff.<P>But you HAVE to get a grip on your Plan A here and get it finetuned. The emotional rollercoaster and the thrice weekly relationship talks are killing her hope of progress. <P>Have you considered some anti-deps or some other medication to chill you out? Talk to your doctor. Because you can't be looking to your W for help with your lovebank, that isn't in the cards right now. If it happens it is manna from heaven. Your Taker coming out and talking about your lovebank to her has got to stop. You might as well send your attorney rather than your Taker...the end result will be the same.<P>Try to set some behavior goals for two weeks, show some discipline, and stick to them. NO relationship talks. SUNNY attitude around your W. Don't be affected by her moods or lovebusting. If she is crabby, you act happy and pleasant. If she seems depressed, you act happy and pleasant. If she sprouts goat horns and babbles in tongues, you act happy and pleasant. <P>Your fate is your own here, Imp. Your strength and discipline will determine what happens to your marriage, not her mood du jour. <P><B>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR>help!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Impy, my friend, you have gotten all of the help that a message board is going to give you, to the tune of 16 pages. There is no secreyt handshake or magic spell or G-Spot that is going to make this happen overnight. And unless one of us skins you ala Silence of the Lambs and slides into your skin and then your bed, it is going to have to be YOU that effects a consistent Plan A, cuts out the lovebusting, stops the sadsack relationship talks, and pulls it together. You can do it and recover your marriage. Or you can fail and eventually lapse into divorce. But it really is YOU that has your fate in your hands. You have gotten all the information that this board is going to provide you...we can lead you to the water, but we can't make you drink. <P>But think about this: If your W had truly had her mind made up, you would be on the street, not in her bed.<P>What are you going to do?<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited March 24, 2001).]

dcope, <P>How about some inspiration and motivation? Read this <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/003792.html" TARGET=_blank>For Mike C2</A> thread and read all the links too. <P>And may I second the motion that you change your name to <B>"Patient"</B>, or <B>"Coping Nicely"</B> or something really positive that reflects your goal? Not that there is anything inherently bad or evil in some impulsiveness, but at this point it is a habit that must be reined in!

Let me ask you something, impulsive: Do you love your wife unconditionally? If you tried to give your wife everything she wanted from you, and she <I>still</I> left you, would you believe that all your efforts were wasted? Or would you be thankful for what you were able to give her while you still had the chance?<P>Think about this carefully. Your wife believes you are still focused on getting what <I>you</I> want. You want the marriage, and she thinks <I>that's</I> why you've changed, not because you love her. Granted, none of us have entirely unmixed motives, and there's nothing wrong with working toward what you want; but if a significant part of your motivation is <I>not</I> love for your wife, then frankly, I don't think you've got a chance.<P>So, first decide whether you really love her. And if you <I>do</I>, then ask yourself this: why doesn't your wife want you to get your hopes up?<P>Why would she care about that, hmm? You don't suppose, perhaps, that it's because she loves you? Maybe?<BR>

I believe she loves me but I've responded in ways that still make her feel bad about herself. She doesn't deserve it and I hadn't intended for it to be like it has been. Impatience has been a killer here. Rather then sitting back and taking pride and satisfaction in the tiny steps of progress I was making I wanted it all yesterday and acted in a way that she didn't like at all. It turned out to be a bigger lovebuster then the one's I changed. I'm growing slowly but surely but the problem is I'm dragging her through the growth process with me and I'm doing damage with my impatience, and impulsiveness. Now I'm in a position I didn't want to be in. I've made my bed, but now I'm going to lie in it without complaing about how uncomfortable it is.

Things have been going fairly well lately so I haven't felt as compelled to write however over the last couple of days we have had some minor setbacks, and I would love some feedback just to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot. Since last Sunday I have been on a real natural life high. Lots of energy, tons of fun and horseplay with the boys and no mood swings or lack of patience with the wife. Thursday night she let me massage her feet. Friday night she let me massage her back and body. Albeit, I'm still on the couch (Mike you lose the bet it's been more then a week already Saturday morning we had some earth moving SF. Went together to watch my kid play hockey, went to Toys R US<BR>together afterwards and bought the kids toys, and then went to dinner at Appleby's (All you can eat Ribs $10.00 can't beat it). Anyway we decided to get a sitter and go to a party together. Dropped the kids off at the sitter, and then went to the party. On the way in I tried to hold her hand and she snatched her hand back and said don't hold my hand this is not a date. I was a little taken back but I got over it quick. Once we were at our table with a group of friends rather then sitting right next to her I left a chair between us. She was upset that I was being distant. She was also upset that I would not drink beer. I was only drinking Pepsi (New found religious convictions) I tried to lighten things up by dancing and smiling alot but she was still a little pissed. On the way home she didn't say a word. Once we got home she said we needed to talk. She said that once she said don't hold her hand my whole attitude changed, and that is why we should not have had sex. I said that I thought I over stepped a boundary and the reason I didn't sit directly next to her was because I didn't want her to feel crowded or pressured like I was tryiing to move in for the kill or something. She seemed convinced that I was different, but I explained that I was hurt for about 10 seconds and after that I was fine with it. I told her that I think that she is so conditioned to think I'm acting funny that she misinterpreted my feelings about the entire night. She said that I'm probably right and that she is so confused that she doesn't know what to believe anymore and that the sex between us while beter then ever (WHY??) clouds her judgement and objectivity and is not a good idea. She feels that by having sex with me she is leading me on, or giving me false hope. Of course I say lead me please. I'm a little confuse myself, on one hand I think I'm making great progress and at the same time she says something like that to take all the wind out of my sails. Am I delusional? The other situation happened today. Again sex involved. I brought up the point that I was way way horny, and I propositioned her like How $$ much for sex? (Terrible attempt at humor) She agreed on a price i cam right home from work we had sex and before, during , and after i sensed that she was not happy. Afterwards she said she felt cheap, and used, and that Once again put my wants in front of her feelings. I apologized because it was not what I intended to do. i explained that i was just trying to get close to her and she said that she felt compelled to do it because i still have the financial hammer in my hand and she wants to please me or I won't pay bills. I told her I don't want her to feel like that and that although I do have a desire to make love to her not at that cost. I need some advise her. Am I really hurting my plan A? How should I have handled these to situations, and how to I handle the sex issue in the future? I'm not sure if my plan A is working or not!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>(Mike you lose the bet it's been more then a week already Saturday morning we had some earth moving SF.</B><P>scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, getting laid trumps the couch. <P><B>I was a little taken back but I got over it quick. Once we were at our table with a group of friends rather then sitting right next to her I left a chair between us. She was upset that I was being distant. She was also upset that I would not drink beer.</B><P>Well.....remember that she is very sensitive to signals, so you have to play it like the pioneers did with the indians "keep your eyes shining" Don't get moody and then say "I'm not mad", that isn't honest and it hampers good communication. In other words, it isn't what uyou DO, it is the KARMA you put out, and plainly she sensed you were ticked, and also maybe you caused your firends to wonder why you were sitting apart.<P>Look, don't offer a defense here, just learn that you have to be extra careful not to offend. <P><B>I was only drinking Pepsi (New found religious convictions)</B><P>Well, didn't she say earlier that she was afraid that you wouldn't party with her anymore? Maybe nursing a beer would have been a good idea...<P><B>She said that I'm probably right and that she is so confused that she doesn't know what to believe anymore and that the sex between us while beter then ever (WHY??) clouds her judgement and objectivity and is not a good idea.</B><P>Well, it would be nice to convince her that the lovemaking is important in meeting each of your needs and keeping connected, and you will stop all atte,pts at initiating affection.<P>By the way, I suspect that when she "allows" you to massage her feet, which you believe is a good sign, she is actually filling your lovebank and probably draining hers with unwanted affection.<P><B>I brought up the point that I was way way horny, and I propositioned her like How $$ much for sex?</B><P>Gee, on how many levels was this a bad idea? You asserted your needs while overlaying a reminder of your financial woes. Ouch.<P>You need to retrench, respect the boundaries that she is setting, keep working on the financial support, and hang back on your needs. It seems to me that maybe she has a decent sex drive (you're lucky), and I think if you hang back and behave she'll probably come back to you on the sex. But make sure you respect her desire for no affection, but don't do it in a "sulky" way that she will pick up. <P> <BR>

impulsive, my take is that you are doing great. Mike C2 says that you have to be extra careful not to offend, and he's right, but you will drive yourself crazy if you try to second-guess yourself all the time. Sure, your wife's wariness is making her extra sensitive to the signals you are putting out, but it's also causing her to pick up a whole lot of imaginary signals. There's nothing you can do about that, so just make sure that your real signals are strong enough to punch through the noise. Everything you said in your last post leads me to believe that you are on exactly the right track. You're being direct and honest with your wife when <I>she</I> wants to talk, but you're not pressuring her for relationship talks yourself. Fortunately, she <I>is</I> talking and she <I>is</I> listening. That's everything you can realistically hope for right now, and more. Count yourself blessed.<P>It's good that you are asking these questions here, though. Re-evaluation is the name of the game, because the track doesn't tend to go straight all the time. Your wife is giving you some valuable input here, which you wouldn't have gotten if things hadn't played out the way they did. She's giving you a terrific opportunity to make adjustments now.<P>First, <I>don't</I> ask your wife for sex. The <I>last</I> thing you want is for her to feel used, and to do anything for you out of a sense of obligation. That will only breed resentment.<P>Second, as your wife gives you opportunity (<I>don't</I> force it!) you need to try to get her to understand that what you want <I>most</I> from her is for her to be true to her heart and to herself. True intimacy can only be achieved voluntarily. Anything else would be a cheap imitation, and that's <I>not</I> what you want. If you really love your wife, you want what's best for her no matter what it costs <I>you</I>. If her <I>heart</I> takes her away from you, then you have to be prepared to accept that. If her pain or her <I>fear</I> takes her away from you, that's another story. That would be a tragedy.<P>Third, as <I>she</I> brings up her feelings, assure your wife that you <I>want</I> to respect her boundaries. You did a pretty good job of this already when you explained that having your desires fulfilled could come at too high a cost. This is really just a corollary to my previous point, but it addresses how you must <I>interact</I> with your wife. She must be confident that when she would rather say "no", <I>you</I> would rather that she say "no" too, as long as her "no" is based on what she <I>really</I> wants rather than how she thinks you might react. (She might say "no" because she doesn't want to give you false hope, or she might say "no" because she doesn't want to give <I>herself</I> false hope. Neither motivation is really being true to herself.)<P>Fourth, you need to see if you can defuse your wife's concern about leading you on. If you get the chance, you might tell her even though you understand you can't <I>expect</I> anything from her, you're going to have hope no matter what she does. Nothing she does is going to give you false hope, since you have hope already.<P>Fifth, you need to show your wife that your love is truly unconditional. That doesn't mean that you will approve of self-destructive behavior from her, but fortunately it doesn't sound like that's something you are forced to deal with. What it <I>does</I> mean is that you need to remain focused on meeting <I>her</I> needs regardless of what she is doing with regard to you. And it means you <I>don't</I> keep a mental record. <B>You have no love bank!</B> Instead, your wife has an unlimited credit line! Everything you give her, you give her freely. And everything she gives you, you accept gratefully and without grabbing for more.<P>Sixth, don't drink the beer! Buy your wife the beer, sure, to demonstrate that you're not being holier-than-thou about it. But if you compromise your principles, you're just going to appear weak and needy again. Your wife needs to know that you are strong as well as safe, so stick to your principles.<P>Really, impulsive, it sounds to me like your Plan A is going amazingly well, and you're doing great!<BR>

I think we are at a plataeu. I'm still not love busting, I'm not talking relationship. We are getting along very well, but she's at a point where she thinks that the affection she let me show her, and the sex we shared is part of the problem. She feels that she is giving me false hope, and she doesn't want to USE me. I'm a little confused now because we seem to be in a holding pattern. She has made some positive comments, but they are followed up by negative long range comments. She told me yesterday that I'm really focused financially, and we are really getting out of the hole fast. Then she turns around and talks about how we should just stay focused on finances and not on the marriage. She sees the changes, she comments on the changes but the changes are not enough in her mind. I've been trying to be patient. I'm praying alot and staying consistent as far as no affection towards her, no relationship talks, and just trying to be as positive and focused as possible. I'm working out now so that helps but the frustration is starting to set in because she goes out of her way to make a negative comment everytime we have a positive experience. She'll say something like don't take this as me leading you on or anything, because I don't want to give you the wrong impression. Thus taking a positive experience and immediately turning it into a negative. Should I just stay on course and wait for her to turn around one day? I'm starting to think this could all be in vain. I know plan A is for me, and I'm a much better person and will stay a better person for life but the outlook for my marriage does not look good from here! She is so stubborn she will never give in! She wants to get out of the financial hole so she can be self sufficient then she doesn't need me. I'm starting to thinnk that the nicer I am, and the more consistent my changes are the more she seems reenforced in her decision to remain withdrawn. What do I do?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I think we are at a plataeu...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nothing wrong with that. A plateau is the place where you set up camp for a while to rest up for the next segment of the climb.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>We are getting along very well, but she...feels that she is giving me false hope, and she doesn't want to USE me. ...She has made some positive comments, but they are followed up by negative long range comments. She told me yesterday that I'm really focused financially, and we are really getting out of the hole fast. Then she turns around and talks about how we should just stay focused on finances and not on the marriage. She sees the changes, she comments on the changes but the changes are not enough in her mind.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did <I>she</I> say that the changes are "not enough" or are those <I>your</I>words? I suspect your wife is <I>not</I> trying to evaluate the adequacy of the changes. She is too ambivalent and confused right now. She just wants the stress to go away so that she can finally have a chance to regain some clarity of thought.<P>She wants your relationship to be put "on hold" for <I>both</I> of you because she doesn't know what to expect. She doesn't want to push you away, because she still has hope for your marriage herself. But she doesn't want to lead you on, because she's not yet convinced that the marriage will work. As she vacillates between the fear of losing you and the fear of being hurt again, her dance between the positive and negative is really designed to maintain the status quo.<P>This is not a bad situation. Time and consistency are on your side.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I've been trying to be patient. I'm praying alot and staying consistent as far as no affection towards her, no relationship talks, and just trying to be as positive and focused as possible. I'm working out now so that helps but the frustration is starting to set in because she goes out of her way to make a negative comment everytime we have a positive experience. She'll say something like don't take this as me leading you on or anything, because I don't want to give you the wrong impression. Thus taking a positive experience and immediately turning it into a negative.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're going to have to be a lot <I>more</I> patient. Treasure the positive comments, and remind yourself that the negative comments are really your wife's way of battling her <I>own</I> hope. She's not just afraid of leading <I>you</I> on; she's afraid of leading <I>herself</I> on.<P>Remember the animals! (Feeding wild ones, that is.) The more you prove yourself safe, the more your wife's trust will grow.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Should I just stay on course and wait for her to turn around one day? I'm starting to think this could all be in vain. I know plan A is for me, and I'm a much better person and will stay a better person for life but the outlook for my marriage does not look good from here!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I guess you must not have a very good view. <P>Look, you're right, you could still lose your wife no matter what you do. That's a fact you've got to face, but there's no point in dwelling on it. I think the odds are in your favor.<P>Just for a moment, though, let's suppose that you <I>do</I> end up losing your wife. How do you figure that what you're doing is "in vain"? You already admit that you're becoming a better person. You could sure stand to learn a lot more patience, and believe me, if you stay the course that's what you <I>will</I> learn! Furthermore, if you love your wife you should be happy to have this opportunity to give back to your wife after so long a time of taking.<P>One other thing: what's your proposed alternative to "staying the course"? Sure, the course is difficult, but have you got some other plan in mind that won't be just as tough? If so, how do you think taking that "easy way out" would make you feel about yourself?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She is so stubborn she will never give in! She wants to get out of the financial hole so she can be self sufficient then she doesn't need me. I'm starting to thinnk that the nicer I am, and the more consistent my changes are the more she seems reenforced in her decision to remain withdrawn. What do I do? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is not a competition between you and your wife. If you don't try to push her, then she won't be able to dig in her heels. As for her being self-sufficient, would you rather that she needed you or that she wanted you?<P>It sounds to me like your only real problem is that you need to be more patient. A <I>lot</I> more patient. You've planted the seeds, but you can't make them grow overnight.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited April 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She wants to get out of the financial hole so she can be self sufficient then she doesn't need me. I'm starting to think that the nicer I am, and the more consistent my changes are the more she seems reenforced in her decision to remain withdrawn. What do I do? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I had a priest tell me once that marriages often come apart when couples get close to the light at the end of the financial tunnel. Then there is no longer any need to be yoked in tandem. I'd say the way to dodge that problem is to make some real scary (and the real ones <I>are</I> scary) projections about what the kids are going to need for college, cars, etc. in the future. Don't explicitly say "we're going to have to stay together to get this done." Allow that to be inferred by her. <P>If you don't have life insurance, or haven't looked at it in a while, now would be the time to have an agent in. <P>Next, what about a Friday or Saturday night out? No pressure, nothing too fancy (unless that's what she likes)--just no kids around and few distractions. <P>Finally, recognize that you alone are powerless to change her heart. God may help you do that. Or He may have a different plan in mind for the both of you, regardless of your vows at the altar. The vows do not say your marriage will never come apart; they admonish others not to try to take it apart. It is possible that God's will is something different. He <I><B>is</I></B> mysterious. Imagine what that future might be for you. And resolve that if and when it comes you will meet it serenely. It doens't mean you won't fight for your marriage ... it does mean that you won't be <I>berserk</I> in fighting for your marriage. That would be counterproductive--and has been in the past. Add serenity to patience. Not that you're making a list of how things would be better if your marriage ended--but a list of ways you would survive and even thrive might be a good thing to keep in your head so that you're calmer.

GDP, Those were some very encouraging thoughts, until you got to the part about I might not ever get her back <P>You seem to have a very accurate perception of her state of mind. I'm in the same house with her and you seem to have your finger on the pulse of this situation better then I do. I think the thing I don't understand is this. Why don't she just say O.K. he has maintained the changes this long I'll give the marriage one chance, and the first time I see something that resembles the old Impulsive, I'm out and I'm never looking back. I hope your right about patience, and time. I'm not making any rash decisions, I'm just maintaining my focus, and trying to remain positive. OHH the tattoo that I made the big fuss about was a temporary tattoo. I knew it was not like her but I made big deal about nothing. The part about she just wants the stress to stop is dead on! One problem is she sees us having sex or being close as a stress inducer. I wish she didn't feel that way but she does. She feels that us being sexual, or emotional intimate cause problems and stress. She's at the point where there are times she wants to feel close to me but she thinks it's a gamble. She forces herself to maintain the distance, thus making it impossible for us to grow closer. I'm afraid that she will never take the opportunity to see if we can work this thing out. Once you've climbed half way up a mountain and almost died in a avalanche, you will be a little reluctant to try that same mountain again after you've come down and are out of harms way. <p>[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 04, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>OHH the tattoo that I made the big fuss about was a temporary tattoo. I knew it was not like her but I made big <BR>deal about nothing.</B><P>lol...she got you pretty good there. Probably another test of the new you. Oh well, you failed that one, maybe, but nobody bats 1.000.... <P><B>One problem is she sees us having sex or being close as a stress inducer. I wish she didn't feel that way but she does. She feels that us being sexual, or emotional intimate cause problems and stress.</B><P>Actually, I think what you have conditioned her to do this by overstepping her boundaries whenever she shows you some kindness. I did that too....it is important to cradle those little moments of progress like a bird's egg and not let them get shattered by making assumptions and letting your Taker make a grab.<P>So, now, she feels like she has to give you a warning stiff arm following any progress.<P>Stay humble, and create a new track record where you respect her wishes through good times and bad, good days and bad. Lack of consistency is thge enemy here...<P>At perhaps a parallel time in my marital recovery, Steve Harley said to me <paraphrasing, of course> "You have her confused now, and that is good. She sees the changes, and is trying to find out if they are changes or an act. Over time, if you continue and are consistent, she will be convinced that they are changes and will open up."<P><BR> <BR>

I have avoided relationship talks like the plague for 4 entire days now. Well she said something to me today that kind of vlew me away. She commented on how nice the house looked after I cleaned it this morning. She said WOW the house looks great! I can't believe how neat and clean you are now. I used to hate how big of a slob you used to be. You know I'm really starting to feel cheated, or short changed here. I said why? She said because while I was in the marriage you were so difficult to live with. Now your like the perfect husband, and it just doesn't seem fair. It took everything in me to just smile. She also said that it's crazy that while she was trying I wasn't now I'm trying and changing and she's not into it. I'm not sure how to respond to that type of talk so I don't say anything because I don't want to slip into a relationship talk. This is a perfect example of the type of negative comments she makes that just kills my optimism. On one hand she tells me that she sees and likes the change, but on the other hand she basically tells me that she's seeing it from a distance and has no intention on reengaging in the marriage. So I guess I just continue to be patient and start to think about life without her????<p>[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 04, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Now your like the perfect husband, and it just doesn't seem fair. </B><P>Well...reread my last post. You have her confused. She's noting the changes. Still accompanying them with the straightarm....maybe she was afraid if she commented on the house being clean without zinging you then you would offer her money for sex <P>So, she is compelled to compliment you, but feels she has to reinforce the boundaries again. <shrug> (I wish there was an icon for that ) Anyway, take the compliment and let the straightarm be the lesson it is supposed to be.<P>This is all good, although it comes wrapped in a nasty wrapper. Remember, she has to go through conflict to get out of withdrawal and into intimacy. <BR>