<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I've come to understand that the reason that is happening is because I putting my faith and hope in her rather then in God. I love her and my family more then anything on earth. I can't fix my marriage with words or promises. The only chance I have is for me to focus on me, and my relationship with God and my children and if it's his will for my marriage to come back together then it will happen.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Impulsive:<BR>It IS God's will that your marriage be restored. God does not approve of divorce. God allowed Moses to grant a divorce because the peoples' hearts had become hardened, but he does not approve of it. A good book to read is 'Hope of the Separated: Wounded Marriages Can Be Healed' by Gary Chapman. In it Gary makes a point of telling us that if we pray for God's will to be done we are wasting our time. (Again, His will is to restore our marriage.) Instead we should be praying for God to soften our spouse's heart and asking the Holy Spirit to speak through us to lead our spouses to salvation. God allows us the freedom of choice and right now your W is choosing the wrong path. I realize that it is difficult to see any hope in the future with your W's negative attitude. The hope you should hold onto is your eternal life with God. You need to carry on your efforts to work on your marriage and in time things will work out. But remember it is in God's time not ours - a few months or even years in our lives is nothing when you compare it to the eternal life we will have with Him. <BR>

I took a good look at my wife while she was getting ready for work today and My God did she ever look breath taking. It took everything in me not to just pounce on her. Maybe the fact that she was seductively wiggleing while putting on her pantyhose had a impact on me also. I'll tell you this is like torture. It would not be so difficult if she wasn't so beautiful and sexy. I got my car working, it's overheating and smoking near the waterpump so I'll get someone to look at it tommorrow. Everything is still the status quo. My wife is friendly but distant. No desire to get close, no desire for sex, just distance, distance, and more distance. I'm not lovebusting, and I'm still maintaining my lifestyle changes but the hard part is she doesn't seem to be moved or bothered by the lack of intimacy. My spirits have been positive and I manage now not to talk relationship. However I did tell her on the way to her job, that she has been looking exceptionally beautiful lately. She said thank you, and that's it. She asked me to do her a favor, and stop leaving a candy bar on her pillow every night because she has been eating them everynight and she's getting pimples. So tonight I went to the local dessert shop and got her strawberry mousse in chocolate cups, and left it on her pillow. Would it be a bad idea to ask for just a little sex? I think I know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's better to ask here then to ask her.

Pretend you are 15 and too embarassed to ask straight out! Watch her responses. Does she lean into you? Allows a brushing of hands to include a little more squeeze? Kisses you back? Does she Give anything sensual or sexy?<P>Cool guys don't get turned down because they don't ask until they already know the answer!

Lately I have been keeping my distance. I have not initiated any contact and she seems to be fine with that. The last time we had sex she asked for it. I asked for it after that an she said no. Then she said that her asking and getting was a mistake because it was sending me mixed messages. It made her feel selfish because when she wants it she gets it, but when I ask she doesn't feel like it and it make her feel guilty. She then said we are better off not having it at all. I kind of pushed the issue one day by asking for a hand job when she said no to sex and she completed the task feeling obligated. It was terrible. I only continued because I was hoping she would get aroused but she didn't in fact I think it turned her totally off. After I was finished I think I felt lower then I've ever felt in my entire life. I felt like my mother and my pastor both caught me masturbating in the church basement. I felt like a deviant. She said afterwards that she felt my pain, and that sex was probably not a good idea anymore. I do have a high sex drive. She has a healthy one but not as high as mine. I'm a every other day kind of guy. She usually like it once maybe twice per week. Twice since this ordeal started she has come to me and said I need it give it to me. The problem is that she sees that as leading me on, or causing stress. I could release some sexual tension by masturbating but I don't know if it's a sin or not. If your thinking about your wife that doesn't want to have sex with you is it a sin to masturbate? Also the one night she came home and asked for it I just decided not to masturbate about a hour before she got home. I'm so scared that I'll masturbate and 10 minute laters she come and ask for it, and I can't accomadate.

Dear Impulsive,<P>Have you ever thought of being GRATEFUL for what you have? You have daily access to your W. You get to see her and fall in love everyday, You still get some of the intimacy. I know it is Hard but try writing a gratitude list. I wish I was in your shoes it would be so much easier. Keep on Keeping on, And do read that book Hope for the Seperated I have read it four times cover to cover done all the excersizes in it, I feel better at times but I still get very sad. Just be gratful she is still there<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I'll tell you this is like torture. It would not be so difficult if she wasn't so beautiful and sexy.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can empathize. Many's the time I thought the same thing regarding my wife...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She asked me to do her a favor, and stop leaving a candy bar on her pillow every night because she has been eating them everynight and she's getting pimples. So tonight I went to the local dessert shop and got her strawberry mousse in chocolate cups, and left it on her pillow.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. While that may be following the letter of your wife's request, I'm not sure it's following the spirit. You're still feeding her chocolate. Perhaps it's time to start branching out a bit. What else could you put on her pillow? Love notes are probably not a good idea right now, or anything that says anything about how you feel; but generic inspirational notes are probably okay, and complimentary notes might even be all right (pointing out things you noticed she did that you admired or appreciated). What about a flower? Or a little stuffed animal? Be creative and thoughtful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Would it be a bad idea to ask for just a little sex? I think I know the answer but it doesn't hurt to ask. It's better to ask here then to ask her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you <I>do</I> know the answer. You just don't like it...

Impulsive,<P>I only read a few of the last pages of this thread, so I apologize in advance if this issue has already been addressed, but I suspect your wife is having an affair.<P>Your posts of the last few days describe verbatim what my W said while in the midst of her affair, so it hits close to home. Especially the "sex might send the wrong message" line.<P>Any thoughts?<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I could release some sexual tension by masturbating but I don't know if it's a sin or not. If your thinking about your wife that doesn't want to have sex with you is it a sin to masturbate?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, since you asked...no, I don't think it's a sin at all. Why torture yourself? Your situation is already painful enough as it is.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Also the one night she came home and asked for it I just decided not to masturbate about a hour before she got home. I'm so scared that I'll masturbate and 10 minute laters she come and ask for it, and I can't accomadate.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's all in the timing. If you masturbate after your wife leaves for work instead of before she comes home, this wouldn't be a problem.<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>I only read a few of the last pages of this thread, so I apologize in advance if this issue has already been addressed, but I suspect your wife is having an affair.</B><P>Dude, that is what you ALWAYS say <P>I don't think so. Imp's erratic driving history is more than enough explanation for why his wife is hiding under the dashboard. I think his situation is analagous to mine.<P>Mike<BR>

Well, I continue to believe that there is <I><B>somebody</I></B> coming between dcope/impulsive and his wife. I don't think that person is necessarily a member of the opposite sex, an emotional attachment, or an affair. More likely one of her girlfriends. On occasion, she has come home <I>drunk</I>. At the very least, her lifestyle is not conducive to maintaining a secure, happy and stable marriage. <P>Imagine a husband who spends lots of nights "out with the boys" and comes home drunk. We would all say "<I>that's a problem</I>".<P>This "problem" may well have its roots in dcope/impulsive's own behavior. It could have been "tit-for-tat" on the part of his wife, or simply her way of releasing the pressure she felt she was under. But she needs to ease out of it, and focus on her role as mother. Especially since she'll be doing it alone soon enough if she continues on the path she has chosen. <P>Now, I'm not saying that dcope/impulsive is in any position to make any demands in that regard. And it is true that she comes home drunk and makes love to him, which he likes. But the point would be, what's this drinking all about? And is it paralleling or abetting other misbehavior? Is alcohol a problem in her life? <P>It's probably been a long time since a lot of us were last inebriated. Probably even longer since we were in that state <I>not</I> in the presence of our significant other. It's just another issue for dcope/impulsive to take a look at. Especially since a big part of the issue here may be his wife secretly taking the counsel of a friend, bartender, or whatever. Poisonous counsel. Regardless of whether it's well-intentioned or not. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited April 17, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B><BR>Dude, that is what you ALWAYS say </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, and unfortunately I have always been right so far... Just ask Wifeofcop, Mario, tessa, Griz, mbtrk, etc...<P>Impulsive's W is using the WS vocabulary, which means she found the secret WS code book, which means... well, you get my drift.<P>I can go back and quote from his posts, if you want, and there are more than enough "classic WS lines" in there to raise my suspicions.<P>Remember how last June/July we were sitting here scheming how to get my W out of "withdrawal", as she was uttering the same nonsense that "sex is too confusing right now", while making herself all made up and pretty for the OM? And then we had one night of intimacy followed by the "that was a mistake" line? Sound familiar?<P>I dunno, I just don't like it.<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>Remember how last June/July we were sitting here scheming how to get my W out of "withdrawal", as she was uttering the same nonsense that "sex is too confusing right now", while making herself all made up and pretty for the OM? And then we had one night of intimacy followed by the "that was a mistake" line? Sound familiar?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, yeah, I remember, brudda.<P>I just think there are alternative explanation for these situations. You can reach the same destination by different routes.<P>I think a very withdrawn mate will exhibit many of the behaviors that a wayward spouse woudl...mood swings, sullen behavior, lashing out, seeking social mind candy outside the relationship. But it doesn't necessarily have to include an affair in every instance.<P>That said, Steve Harley told me that every time he hears of a mate wanting to leave a relationship he simply assumes another party is involved, and goes from there. <shrug> Point being the action items for the BS remain pretty much the same. <P>I'm sure imp will weigh in here and answer some of these suspicions.<P>Mike <BR>

I could be wrong but I doubt very seriously if there is anybody else. My wife has said things like she wish she was a lesbian. She wish she could sew up her slit. We have not eaten beef in our home since Mad Cow Disease first became public. She is phobiac about diseases. She is more scared of AIDS then anything in the world. She would never become sexual with someone else. Emotional farfetched as well. She does not operate like that. You can believe whatever you want but I can almost say with certainty that she is faithful. She is at a point where she feels like it's to little to late. The changes are to late. Her mind is made up that it's time to move forward. Us having sex is reaching back to the past. She feels we can't move forward as long as we are still sexually involved. It's also a matter of risk involved. She feels that it took her so long to get up the courage to tell me that she was putting down the boulder on her back. After she told me she didn't want to be married anymore it felt like the boulder was removed. Even thinking about making the marriage work is like picking that boulder back up and walking with it again. It's overwhelming for her and it's not feasible to her. She said your walking around here like I'm just going through a phase or something. This is it! It's real life. Move forward. I think I had my chance with plan A And I blew it so, we are farther away then where we were when we first started. My wife is a strange bird. It takes her a while to make her mind up about something but once it's made. Forgetaboutit! She is taking charge of her life now. She is excercising her independence. She feels emancipated. Recovery takes her back down dark, unpaved roads she doesn't want to go down. I can't blame her. I have to start thinking about life without her. I don't want to but I don't have any other option. Plan A is not working at all. My changes are not enough for her to risk that they will last forever. It's a risk she says she does not want to take. It's a life lesson that she says I have to learn. I can't fix everything all the time. She is a granite wall on these issues, and unmovable. I love her more then life itself. I looked at her yesterday and today and she is undeniably beautiful. There is a very lucky man some where in the world who will have her one day. Unfortunately it won't be me. I had my chance. I blew it. I have alot of thoughts right now. Pain, guilt, helplessness, and hopelessness. I'm not depressed because I've grown enough to know that won't help. I don't want to go home now because for some reason lately looking at her is harder. She is even more beautiful and irresitable when I look at her. I have these helpless feelings where I just cave in. It's weird it feels like a spell or something. I'm starting to think that moving out might be a better course of action at this point. It's not a matter of discipline, or being strong it's a matter of being able to live under the same roof and not cave into my feeling of wanting her more then anything in the world. I can't have her so I get depressed. I'm in a manic mode right now. I go from very high with God and spirituality, to very very low and hopelessness. I don't know how to smooth it out.

Remember when I was suggesting "Move out." Well right now I'm not. Allow her to say the negative things. Don't dispute her and tell her you think it is a phase. Say, "I'm only behaving like it's a phase because there are no better alternatives. I don't expect your mind to change. But you're right that I need to be here for the children's sake, and so do you, and I'm going to make it as pleasant as possible. And I won't give up hope." <P>Now, you may want to read that "Should I stay or should I go" book on controlled separation. I don't think you're going to find anything in there that will tell you to separate. But you might get some ideas how to handle this nasty little situation. <P>So just consider this tough time in your life "Reboot Camp."<P>And ... even though I don't think it's an affair either ... figure out who is the third person poisoning your marriage. Two stable chemicals don't react without a catalyst. <I><B>Something</I></B> is pulling her away from you ... she reapproaches, but then is pulled back ... people don't pull back on their own unless there has been extreme abuse. But they <I>can</I> be pulled back if there is a hidden force. That force needs to be identified and neutralized by whatever means necessary.<P>Whatever detective work is necessary ... do it. You seem to be fighting a ghost ... it's time that ghost had form, and a name.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I could be wrong but I doubt very seriously if there is anybody else. My wife has said things like she wish she was a lesbian. She wish she could sew up her slit. We have not eaten beef in our home since Mad Cow Disease first became public. She is phobiac about diseases. She is more scared of AIDS then anything in the world. She would never become sexual with someone else. Emotional farfetched as well. She does not operate like that. You can believe whatever you want but I can almost say with certainty that she is faithful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>People tend to see their own experiences in others' situations.<P>I have some very good reasons to believe that my wife did not leave me because of another man. It <I>does</I> happen. I realize that I could be wrong, and I am aware that she may yet <I>find</I> someone else. But I don't really care all that much, since I don't see infidelity as being any worse a betrayal than abandonment. I <I>hope</I> there is no other man involved, because if there is that means my wife will have even <I>more</I> guilt to deal with, but it doesn't really affect <I>me</I> one way or the other.<P>I don't think it really matters that much in impulsive's case either, at least insofar as what he has to do if he wants to save his marriage. Hunting for possible outside influences is likely to be a waste of effort, because there's not much he could do about it if he found such influences.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She feels that it took her so long to get up the courage to tell me that she was putting down the boulder on her back. After she told me she didn't want to be married anymore it felt like the boulder was removed. Even thinking about making the marriage work is like picking that boulder back up and walking with it again. It's overwhelming for her and it's not feasible to her. She said your walking around here like I'm just going through a phase or something. This is it! It's real life. Move forward.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>impulsive, sooner or later I think your wife is going to realize that she is lumping a bunch of stuff together that doesn't <I>have</I> to be lumped together. (She may need some help to see it, but I suspect it's still too early to work on <I>that</I>.)<P>The boulder your wife was carrying around wasn't her marriage to you. It was her attitudes and feelings about it, to which <I>your</I> attitudes and behaviors obviously contributed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She is taking charge of her life now. She is excercising her independence. She feels emancipated. Recovery takes her back down dark, unpaved roads she doesn't want to go down. I can't blame her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I can't blame her either, but she doesn't have an accurate map, and I think she's eventually going to encounter an unexpected fork in the road. She thinks that renewing her hope in your marriage will take her back the way she came. Well, she <I>could</I> try that, but it wouldn't be healthy for her, and if she <I>did</I> retrace her path she wouldn't find <I>you</I> back there any way.<P>Your wife is <I>right</I> to want to move forward. What <I>you've</I> got to do, impulsive, is to keep ahead of her. Your wife wants independence? Well, if her ego boundaries were as well-developed as they need to be, she wouldn't be in the turmoil she is now. So, you should be <I>encouraging</I> her to develop those ego boundaries. <I>Let</I> her be a strong, independent person. <I>Help</I> her to be that person. Then, when she has the strength to lift her head up and look around, make sure that you're there in front of her. <I>That's</I> when she'll realize that she doesn't have to go backward to meet you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Plan A is not working at all. My changes are not enough for her to risk that they will last forever. It's a risk she says she does not want to take.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><I>Why</I> do you keep saying this? Are you still hanging on to the hope of a sudden miraculous fix?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It's a life lesson that she says I have to learn. I can't fix everything all the time. She is a granite wall on these issues, and unmovable.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She's also <I>right</I>. But just because you're helpless doesn't mean that you have to be hopeless, and <I>that's</I> the <I>other</I> lesson you haven't learned yet. This is out of your hands, so leave it in God's hands.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I go from very high with God and spirituality, to very very low and hopelessness. I don't know how to smooth it out.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Every time you try to take control back, you're going to hit bottom. <I>Stop</I> worrying about what you <I>can't</I> control, and concentrate on what you <I>can</I> control.<P>I know, I know. Easier said than done.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>And ... even though I don't think it's an affair either ... figure out who is the third person poisoning your marriage. Two stable chemicals don't react without a catalyst. <I>Something</I> is pulling her away from you ... she reapproaches, but then is pulled back ... people don't pull back on their own unless there has been extreme abuse. But they <I>can</I> be pulled back if there is a hidden force. That force needs to be identified and neutralized by whatever means necessary.<P>Whatever detective work is necessary ... do it. You seem to be fighting a ghost ... it's time that ghost had form, and a name. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You might be right, Sisyphus, but I think there's another possibility. Yes there has to be a ghost, and yes it would be nice if that ghost were identified, but that ghost might not be anyone who is whispering in her ear today.<P><I>My</I> wife (or so I believe) ran from ghosts from the <I>past</I> (or so I believe). And she gave them <I>my</I> name.<BR>

Well, hi, whew<P>I've been reading this thread since yesterday and have spent the last 4 hours at this computer because I absolutely had to find out how things were going. <P>Let me say first off that I only now fully appreciate the value of this forum - so many insights from the posters here. So many things that would never have occured to me. And of course it is great value to me as a woman to get men's perspective on these issues. Mike, gotta single you out - I love your posts - the sense of humour you inject really helps (i love understatement). But not just that but the fact that you are sticking with it for so long and still keeping up with the therapy gives me hope that i can do it to.<P>Now to Impulsive, I think I can sum up my reaction in one word: WOW! I must congratulate you on your efforts. REading through the whole saga in a day I was able to see clearly how much you have changed, how determined you have been. You should be proud of yourself for the strides you have made to turn your life around (forgetting your marriage for a second). It is very important for you to step back and look and pat yourself on the back for the changes you have made. And you have learned your lessons. Slowly you were able to see what the negative behaviours were and what reactions they had on your wife. You figured out many things with regard to your marital interaction adn acted on them. That is admirable. <P>Just remember too that these changes and these marital skills and coping skills are for you too, not just for your wife. I was at first impatient with your impatience but am glad to note that it has improved. The intervals between teh periods in which you lost hope are becoming longer and longer. You have also managed to keep your spirits up (for the most part) in a potentially depressing situation. And when you have temporarily succumbed to defeat, it is understandable. Don't be too hard on yourself for it. It is also heartening to note that you are using this board as a tool to vent, rather than exposing it all to your wife. <P>With regard to your wife's questions about whether the changes are real and permanent, that is completely understandable. After you have been disappointed with regularity in the past, you come to expect it and not trust any changes. You still need to give it time and not lose hope. It may seem like an eternity but in reality it has only been a few months. As you have been advised so many times here, consistency is the key for both you and your wife. <P>There are a couple of things that occurred to me when reading through. Sometimes it helps to get a fresh perspective, so I will share them. Your wife seems to have decided in her mind that she 'has' to leave you no matter what changes she sees, no matter that she might be thinking that you will now make a good husband. Has she thought about what awaits her after she leaves you? If there is noone else, then what is she going to? A lonely life away from a man who loves her? Why not give it one more chance? Don't get me wrong - I am not suggesting you put this question to her. But in some way, it needs to be conveyed. And no, I am not suggesting a relationship talk. But she does seem to have issues of her own that need to be worked on. Just as you are sorting yourself so you can present a more cohesive partner to the marriage, this is something she clearly needs to do. i would make a tentative suggestion that you try to bargain with her to commit to a certain amount of marital counselling - say 6 sessions which might open the door to her getting counselling for herself whether or not the marriage thing works out. Loving her as you do, you must want her to be able to sort out her issues even if you both end up going your separate ways. However, please do not act on my advice - wait for the other more experienced people on the board to say what they think of this idea.<P>Teh other thing with regard to your wife is that she claims that she is sending you mixed signals and she does not want to. Well, if she is not having an A, then this is actually a good sign. If she is sending you mixed signals it is because she is having mixed feelings and thoughts herself on the matter. As was pointed out earlier, she thinks that she took enough bull and she finally made up her mind to walk but every now and then because of your wonderful efforts, she questions that decision. More kudos to you. You are definitely in the process of moving her from withdrawal to conflict. Do not lose hope.<P>She is unsure of the permanency of your feelings, fearing that you will return to your old ways and she will have no one to blame but herself for allowing you back into her emotions to hurt her again. Well, I understand how she would feel that, because I have to admit that especially earlier on, you seemed more intent upon winning her back than loving her. The difference is that on the one hand you would be making the changes to impress her and get her back and on the other you would be making the changes because you love her and finally realise that she deserves to be treated well and have her needs met. The reason I say this is because you lose hope and want to give up on your marriage when she says that she does not want your marriage - so you lose hope because you will not get what you want (to win her back). If you were doing it out of love for her, you would rally on and not lose hope because you still have the chance to love her and be with her in whatever sense. I am not pounding you here - that is a natural reaction but one you have to be careful with. You love her and part of loving her is dealing with the negativity, accepting what she is saying and feeling and realising that she has a right to say and feel those things, but remaining committed to loving her even more constantly in the face of the negativity. Adn you have been getting better at this.<P>The next thing is about you yourself. You need a foundation Imps. A solid one. I remember once, a friend while talking me down from a bad moment, said to me that he could lose everything in his life: job, car, family, friends and still not give up because he knew that there was some meaning to his life, some important purpose. This was not a religious guy and it completely baffled me. I thought if I lost everything, heck I'd be jumping in front the nearest speeding bus! But it is important to ground yourself in something other than your marriage right now so you can be more constant and will not be prey to such manic highs and lows. You say that you have gone back to God. So trust him. He has his reasons for doing the things he does and leading you down the roads you are on. He has things to teach you that you can only learn through these trials. Believe that he has plan and everything that is happening is according to his plan. There is a reason. If you doubt that, look back at your own posts here and see that each negative thing that happened taught you something. Each painful incident with you wife taught you something you needed to know to better fulfill her ENs. So when the next negative thing happens,take a deep breath, calm yourself and ask God to show what it is you have to learn from this one. Life is never rosy, in or out of marriage. The bad stuff helps us to learn lessons we would never learn without it. I am not a particularly religious person but I am beginning to have a faith in fate. You have God, call on him to help you to be constant and have faith that he is walking right beside you. Turn to him first - he is your strength.<P>Enough of my preaching, I apologise for the length of this. If there is anything in my post you find useful, use it. If there is anything you find offensive or irritating or downright stupid, just disregard it. This is meant to help, so take the helpful parts and throw away the junk. Adn pray for me too, okay? I need all the help I can get <P>Leanna

After reading 10 of the 20 pages that this thread has accumulated, and not being able to retain even all of that (whereas if I had kept up all along I suppose it would be clearer), and seeing differing views, similar views. . .and a blessing in a host of caring people who want to see success. . . .<P>I feel pretty "unable" to add anything worthwhile. But I have wondered as I was reading all these things if a departure from the basics might not have happened a few times. Most of the time I think that what it comes down to is that the solutions are either right before us, and we just don't like them. Or the answer itself is that we are just plain stuck with a circumstance that we wish wasn't the case. . . and such a case as the latter, then we've nothing left to do but either accept what we have, or sacrifice things we value in exchange for something we hope is to be better.<P>It's been seven years since I started to try to "undistance" my wife. I can easily mark the date at February 94. I suppose that very few of my own circumstances were ever quite similar, but I do believe that before "I" began to try to make these sorts of changes I had become guilty of some of the sorts of neglect that you cited of yourself, Impulse. . . some of the "sorts" and not all of the same ones. Even the reasons were different, and I think all the variables ought to be taken into account. But SEVEN years, a quantifiable/measure of time and I am only just now in the early stages of getting somewhere with my wife. (yes, I am pleased to report some positives, and won't start travailing my own woes because the last thing I dare do is draw much attention to myself in this, your thread, where you are trying so hard to accomplish so much.)<P>My point is that patience is an element of your spirit you may have to apply long, long and hard to get where you want to be. I am not even yet able to say I am quite pleased with where I have gotten, but I can retrace my steps and stumbles and steps again over the past seven years and draw some pretty clear conclusions - chief of which is that I DO see growth, though not growth commensurate with the length of time I have mentioned.<P>My advice isn't so much on how to win your wife back (there's plenty of that), nor how to improve your damaged marriage. And it may sound discouraging because I am talking about vast amounts of time and patience it may take to achieve a goal (in a world where "never" even remains a real possibility). Instead, be encouraged in your own resolve. Make your decisions and take your steps and if not all of them are quite in order, then re-make your decisions and re-take your steps to get them nearer your goal.<P>Be prayerful,<BR>ilmf<P>God Bless

Wow, it's good to come home and have plenty of reading material. Some excellent observations in the last couple of posts. Today while jogging I had a couple of thoughts. The first thing that came to mind was watching a severely handicapped person I saw struggling a great deal just to walk. I said to myself, "and I think I have problems?" I asked myself would that person trade issues with me? In a heartbeat! I felt like a snizzling whiner for complaining about a broken heart when this person could barely walk. It gave me a little perspective. I'm reading a book entitled The Man Who Would Not Be Defeated "It's not what happens to you, it's what you do about it. It's a story about a man that was severly burned, and lost his hands in a motorcycle accident. While fighting back from that life shattering experience he regained his independence through sheer determination. He even regained his ability to fly a plane solo. During a aborted take off he crash landed and all his passengers walked away unharmed except him, he was paralyzed from the waist down, and would never walk again. He fought back and didn't feel sorry for himself and regained his independence AGAIN! This really made me think about my situation. It hurts a ton because I really do love my wife. I hurt because I can't control this situation. There are people that were dealt alot worse hands then the one I'm holding. I'm just going to hold on to this hand for a while and stop complaining that I don't have 21 black jack right now! I'm never going to give up hope on my marriage. It's way to precious to me. When I think about the BS I put my wife through I get sick to my stomach. I literally dislike myself for it. I've come to the understanding that I can't change the past. I can only live for today, and hope that tommorrow brings a blessing that erases the pain of today and yesterday. I'm a great husband right now. I'm a great person right now. I'm a great father right now. I am so sorry that I waited until my wife was in withdrawal to make the life changes that I made. I am also sorry that I was not better equipped to handle the emotional swings that this process produces. I am human and imperfect. I am a very emotional person and unfortuntely my emotions sometimes get the best of me. Those same emotions drive the intense passion and determination I have to love my wife forever. I can't always stay super positive, I try but fall short. I could be in a worse situation. She could have left, or left the state, and took my boys with her. Then I would be even more unbearable on this board. I counting my blessings today. I'm praying for God to soften my wife's heart, and not give in to me but give me a opportunity to earn her respect, admiration, and everlasting love. You can rest assure If I ever get that opportunity again I will savor it and treat is as precious as the air we breath. God is going to restore my marriage, and continue working on me to become a even better person in order to give him glory. Leena, thank you so very much for those encouraging words. I do realize I've come a long way, but not on my power. It was the power of God. Also the people of this board that gave me immeasureable comfort, support, and advice. That have stuck by me through the highs and the lows. Thank You everyone that have responded to this thread. I think it goes without saying I would be in alot worse shape without you guys. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You

Imp....<P>I think one of the problems that people in our situations face is the feeling that 'love' is like a lightbulb...on or off. <P>It isn't...there is a thousand shades of grey between the emotion of "in-love" intimacy and "hate 'em" flight/divorce.<P>You have done a tremendous job in moving the ball between those lines. Hang in there. I think the reality of our situations, and I do equate them, is that in the recent past our spouses would have fondly waved goodbye if we had left. Now, we have them confused...<P>Now, we have planted major seeds of doubt. It looks like dirt but something is happening down there <P><BR>My springtime analogy <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited April 17, 2001).]