Maybe I'm wrong but I think my consistent inconsistency has driven her a little farther off then she once was during this process. I think she has hardened her heart a bit because of the emotional cost of being involved in this process. One of the things I think people should understand when they are first faced with this type of situation is that it is a process. Meaning that things will not happen smoothly. There is a herky jerky path forthcoming that will drain a already weary relationship. My wife right now is upset with the fact that she is being dragged down that path with me. She just wanted to be spared anymore emotional expenses. I wish I could have forseen those expenses, and saved her the trouble. I want to step back and admire her from a far. Appreciate her for her utter beauty inside and out, and ask God to measure my steps, actions and thoughts. I have some progress to regain through patience, but I'm just the guy to do it. The question is not do I love my wife but do I love her even while she is rejecting and hurting me with her distance? The answer absolutely!!!!!!!!! It reminds me of people that love God while everything is good, but can they love God while they going through a storm? It's easy to be happy while your going through a good season. The true test of characther is smiling and advancing in the face of extreme adversity!! Don't show me a man that has had it easy and comfortable his whole life and tell me he's a winner. Show me a man that has come up the rough side of the mountain and overcame some things in the process. That's the winner.<p>[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited April 18, 2001).]

Your story however long, is touching & painful & I had no intention of replying, because all seems to have been said. So, I decided to tell you a story (not mine) which I find amazing & a wonderful example of what true love is.<P>Its true - I hope I get it right or at least close.<P>A man & woman meet & fall madly in love, they soon marry & go on a fantasy honeymoon where they both wind up in a car accident. The man is told his wife was is in a coma & would probably not survive the week. She comes out of the coma soon afterward & the real nightmare begins. Along with some long term memory, her short term memory is completely destroyed. She can not remember who her husband is let alone the fact that she was even married. This woman who he loved more than life itself could not look at him with anything but confusion & disbelief. The only thing she had going for her was her family telling her she once loved this man with all her heart & soul. <P>He realized quickly that he may never reconnect with his wifes heart again, and that although tragic, their marriage could easily be over. He made a decision based on "love" to stand by her till she was ready to stand on her own again and make whatever choice "she needed" to make. For 2 years he did just that, helping her relearn how to eat, drink, & just do the day to day things that she needed to survive. Their relationship was described as that of a loving father & his daughter as there were so many things she was not capable of due to the permanent loss of her short term memory plus.<P>In time she began to see him more like a parent than someone she could ever love. Through much prayer & time (2 years) they fell in love again & she never till this day has regained her lost memories of her husband. By the way he did not walk out of the car accident without his own troubles, broken ribs, fractured legs & arms, punctured lung, & a heart disorder. They have since written a book & gone back to the place of their honeymoon to start over.<P>I know the real story is even more inspiring then I believe I was able to relay it - I am sorry. I hope you to can find someway to let time help you also heal some of these wounds between you & the woman you love.<P>Slow & Steady (its not a race),<BR>God Bless & May the Son grant you Warmth & Patience,<P>Tim<P>PS Wow, Some great stuff in these 20 pages if you got the time. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Maybe I'm wrong but I think my consistent inconsistency has driven her a little farther off then she once was during this process. I think she has hardened her heart a bit because of the emotional cost of being involved in this process. One of the things I think people should understand when they are first faced with this type of situation is that it is a process. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See you're learning dude. Excellent. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B><BR>I have some progress to regain through patience, but I'm just the guy to do it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Patience I think is one of the toughest virtues! <BR>And I hated it when people would tell me be patient. HOW!!!<BR>SO here is what I am learning. How I do it. I note the triggers - in your case it would be when your wife starts talking the negative stuff about not wanting to be married. I see it, i feel my response coming up, ready to drag me down into despair and impatience. I am about to lose it. SO at that point, I stop myself. This what I would say to myself in your situation "I see the negativity. I know that I am about to lose hope and become impatient. Please God, I know you know how much I need to be patient and you are helping me right now to do just that. I will not respond to her negativity with negativity. I love her and I realise that I have contributed to this behaviour. For me to change things I must be calm and accept that she is just fighting herself here. She needs to say these things and I need to respond positively adn realise that the fact that she is saying these things is a good sign - a sign that she is thinking about it. I love her very much adn for her and for us, I am being calm, not losing hope and being patient."<BR>If you find yourself losing it faster than you can think this stuff. Write down your calming note on a piece of paper and keep it in your pocket. Pull it out and read when required. And rewrite it every now and then or else it will lose its power.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B><BR>The question is not do I love my wife but do I love her even while she is rejecting and hurting me with her distance? The answer absolutely!!!!!!!!! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Try to keep this in mind always. "I love her. She needs to hurt me and I love her and want us to have a chance so I will accept her hurt with my love for her."<P>See, everytime something happens, you learn something new or reinforce it in your mind. It is an uphill battle but if you take it one step at a time, as you have so admirably been doing you will get there. You are getting there as we speak I toy with religion and God, but there is one concept that always finds favour with me: GRACE. Undeserved favour - those thoughts that he gives you, those mechanisms he hands you to cope and accept his will graciously. These things that he is helping you to learn through your trials. Cause really you could be going the trials and not learning, but you are learning. God is with you. Remember that. I try to.<P>Have a patient day.<BR>Leanna <BR>

I've been trying not to get to spiritual on this board but when the Holy Spirit shows up it's only right to praise it's presense. Leena those were some very inspirational words you just wrote. Sometimes God says what he wants you to hear through other people. I don't know if you know it or not but I believe he just spoke through you. My prayer is that God softens my wife's heart and that she comes to know the Glory of God for herself. Sometimes in the midst of the storm you just have to STAND. When you've done all you can do just STAND. When it doesn't look like there is a way out just STAND. When people tell you that it's no hope just STAND. When you don't think you have the energy to go any farther just STAND! Stand on God's word and everything will be OK!

Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>My prayer is that God softens my wife's heart </B><P>This I pray for too.<P><B>....and that she comes to know the Glory of God for herself. </B><P>Be careful not to let her know that you think this, as she has already expressed concerns that your evident spirituality will drive you all apart and there is nothing more annoying to people who are not ready to explore their spiritual side than to have others preaching to them. You are leading by a witness of how God is acting in your life giving you the help to change yourself and your attitude to her. Do not harp on God at home. She knows. I caution you about this simply because I have had experiences of this too and I have found myself drawing away from friends and family who tried to force me to join their spiritual timetable. God will reach her in his own time and way. Trust in that.<P>As to my being inspirational, I was trying not to give you too much advice on how to really deal with your wife, as I sense that the others here have more experience in this. I was merely trying to help you make you stronger so you can be more consistent in your thoughts and your mission to turn your life and your marriage around. I am glad if God has been able to speak through me.<P>And I will give you a hope from my own experience - one year ago this week, I left my H or rather asked him to move out. It was a complete shock to him and he was devastated. But I needed time and space to figure things out. He in no way ever treated me badly - this was my crisis. And truthfully when I left him, I never envisioned us getting back together. I stuck to my guns because I felt that I had finally had the courage to stand up for myself and ask for a separation. I felt it would end in divorce. But after misadventures too numerous to mention, and much soul-searching and sorting out of myself, we are beginning again - back together with much hope for our future together. One element that has made this possible is that he continued to love me even when I was pushing him away and he was very understanding about what I needed even though it hurt him. He never gave up hope about us even when I was speaking divorce. So there is hope. Please dont think that I am advising you to move out - in my case, it was necessary. In your case I think it is just the opposite - you can help your marriage best by just being there. But I think the time has come to seek expert advice - perhaps it is time to start calling the Harleys. You've come an exceptionally long way on your own adn certainly professional help will most likely aid that effort.<P>But in the end, you are clearly a guy who knows his wife well and is willing to learn the things you do not know, so persevere.<P>Leanna <P>

Hey impulsive, what is your email? I wanted to send you something inspirational (read religious <P>I have mines on my profile but some reason it is not showing up here. <p>[This message has been edited by Leanna (edited April 19, 2001).]

My wife is acting very different suddenly. She seems to be irritated by my presence. She seems to be more distant then she had been previously. She did something today that she has never done before. She started closing doors. I opened the door and she was standing there getting dressed. I said why are you closing doors she said kind of sarcastically "I need privacy to get dressed." It kind of set me back a little. This was a first. Initial departures from the norm are always eye openers. I get a sense that she is getting frustrated by my still being around. I had a counseling session today. I picked up two very good books!! My God I don't want to put either down. I've come to the conclusion that I can live without my wife. I don't want to but I will survive. I think she feels pressure. I think me confiding in her the other day that I love her more then ever, and that I don't want to live a minute without her put her in a uneasy state of mind. I think I need to send her a new message. The message I feel compelled to send to her now is I'm willing to be patient, I love her eternally, but I will make it through life without her if I'm forced to. I sense that she getting a little cocky, and that she senses that she has a considerable amount of power and control at this point. I don't mind humbling myself. I don't mind her enjoying holding the hammer for the first time in our marriage. I guess what I'm getting at is that she seems to think that I can't make it without her. I know I have sent that message by my inconsistent plan A and by the way I've been depressed from time to time. However the bottom line is I want to save my marriage but, she needs to understand that I'm not some helpless shell of a man that can't function without her. I'm growing stronger and stronger by the day. I believe that preceived weakness is not attractive. I believe my lack of strength through this whole ordeal has turned her off to a extent.

If I didn't know any better I would say she is acting just like my W who leaves May 1st. I no longer talk to her of our future together as she is to far from me at this point in her life to consider a life again with me. My plan is to give her what she needs right now, which happens to be all that I can give her right now - her freedom & TIME. <P>I plan on using baby steps as in about 3 months if all goes well & "she" seems receptive I will ask her out on a date. She may not be able or ready to come back to me as my wife yet but I hope that a date (very casual at first) will be for her non-threathening & for me much more than a first step. These wacky ideas of mine are not all mine, they are from people using them on this site in their own situations.<P>Slow & Steady Here (its still not a race),<BR>God Bless You with Patience & Tolerance & Your W,<P>Tim

Dcope/impulsive,<P>I have spent the time to read your entire post, and I must say that our situations are quite familiar. I invite you to do a search for my posts. I've been posting on D/D.<BR>Almost eery the likeness. Many of the issues I face I have not posted but do have present, like the closing door thing. Or the I dont want to confuse you after intimacy thing.<P>Feel free to comment to me over on D/D if you notice something about where I'm at. <P>BTW, what 2 books are reading? Are they spiritual in nature?<P>Take Care,<BR>Dara

YOU'VE GOT IT!!!! YOU'VE GOT IT!!!! YOU'VE GOT IT!!!!<P>Your last post is EXACTLY the point of view for success. Perfect balance of giving and Plan A with sense of personal integrity and balance and boundaries! I struggle to get this across to people so often. You said it so well.<P>Whether she decides to stay or not, you have gotten to where you absolutely do "Get it." <P>But don't go away... <P> Still ...<P> after all,<P> see... it's easier said than done. <P><BR> <P>

This morning my wife forced a relationship talk. I didn't want to talk but she insisted so I sat and listened. She talked a little about finances, and then asked me have I considered saving some money for when it's time for me to get my own place. I told her that I don't have any intentions on getting my own place. I told her that I love her, and that I'm giving her all the space in the world but I am not leaving my house. If she wants to leave I can't force her to stay. I would not try to force her to stay. However I am not leaving my house. She says I'm not being fair. That she is screwed. I said your not screwed. She said she is trapped. I said your not trapped. She said well since you have all the answers what are my options. I said 1. You can leave.<P>2. You can try to make the marriage work. <P>In fact I offered her a out. I told her that I will offer her $1000.00 per month and get her her own car within 2 months and I would leave and get out of her life. She said what's the but... I said the but is that you open your heart and try to make the marriage work. I explained that I don't want to be married for the sake of being married. I explained that maybe this marriage won't work. We will not know until we try. She said she tried for years and that I was not in the marriage trying, now she don't want to try anymore because she not into it. I said your absolutely right. I understand that she's not into it that is why I'm on the couch not talking relationship, and focusing on the changes I need to make to make me a better person. That's why I don't pressure you about making it work. In fact we would not be talking now if it wasn't your desire to talk. Suddenly my 9 yr. old screamed out Mommy I heard that. She said you heard what? You don't want to be with daddy any more. She get's upset and goes jogging. My son comes to me crying saying Mommy said your moving down the street. I spent the next 20 minutes calming him down and rest assuring him everyone loved him. She came home and wanted to know what was wrong with my son I told her that he is going to be devestated by this. She said I told him that to see how he would handle it and he seemed fine with it. I told her that she really should stop romanticizing this possible divorce as being painfree, and warm and fuzzy and fairy tale like. I told her that divorce is one of the most devestating, earth shaking situations a kid can ever experience. She said well your from a broken home, i'm from a broken home and we are ok. I said EXACTLY!!! LOOK AT US!!!<BR>We are not OK. She said I don't want to be married to you anymore because of the past. I said well I can't do anything about the past but the future has potential if you allow yourself the opportunity to be happy. She said what's the bottom line. I said I'm not leaving. You have options though. You can either leave or get a golden parachute. Try. I don't care how long you try but if you give it a honest effort and it don't work, I'll leave volunteerily. I will give you the cash you need to survive and I will leave with only the clothes on my back. She said no I said ok. She said I'm staying here. I said me too. She said well we'll just maintain things how they are. I said ok. To myself I said ok back to plan A. I don't want to force her out but I've done all I can do. The rest is up to God and her. I will survive with JOY any way. I want my marriage. I want to save it, but in the mean time I'm not leaving. I'll maintain my plan A until either her heart is softened and she gives it a honest effort, or she decides to leave. Either way through the grace of God I will survive. She convinced the it won't work based on the old me. I know with a doubt that if she does give it a honest effort it will work because I'm so changed, and I can provide with my strength from God.

I came home after that and she seemed upset still but she let me hug her. I just kissed her on the forehead and told her I loved her. She let me hold her and I just told her over and over telling her I loved her, and I will always love her. She didn't respond but she let me hold her. That's all I can do is Plan A give her her space, reenforce my love for her and be as honest as possible. The only reason I went where I went with her today was to let her know my intentions. I didn't want to but she has to know my position. I want my marriage. I'm not walking out on my marriage. If she doesn't want it she has to kill it. I'm not doing it. Am I wrong for taking this stand?????

You're taking a great stand! You don't want to divorce, you don't need the "space", so why should you leave? If she can't live with you, she knows where the door is. Actually, I'd open the door for her and make sure it doesn't hit her on the way out (metaphorically).<P>This story is deja vu for me, since my W moved out a couple of months ago, after "trying" for 6 months. All I can say is that in hindsight, she should have left earlier. The tension in our household (as she was trying to carry on her affair while "looking for her feelings") was insane. It is much calmer now.<P>She too tried to start out with the "you move out, but feel free to come by whenever you want to". I said "no thanks, you move out and feel free to come by". In time, she bought into the "two home" concept, where the kids spend a week at each place. But I got to stay at our house, and I'm glad that I fought for that. I wasn't the one who wanted to end the marriage, so why should I leave?<P>Anyway, I think your stand is correct. But, I think you are somewhat caging her with your "golden parachute". I'd simply tell her she is free to go; you'll help her pack (the Dobson speech). I think it's time.<P>AGG

<BR>Imp, I'm sorry you are having a tough trough here. Your stance is correct, don't agree to leave, but give her room and eliminate lovebusters.<P>Hang in there. You will have to have all birdies and no bogies for awhile now...<P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I came home after that and she seemed upset still but she let me hug her. I just kissed her on the forehead and told her I loved her. She let me hold her and I just told her over and over telling her I loved her, and I will always love her. She didn't respond but she let me hold her. That's all I can do is Plan A give her her space, reenforce my love for her and be as honest as possible.</B><P>Imp....I'm not sure that the last sentence follows on to its predeccesors. "Giving her space' is exactly what you have to do. I doubt that the unwanted affection falls into that goal.<P>I think that the hugging and kissing and ILYs are sort of you stealing fulfillment of your affection EN from her, and she resents it. It may also be what is making her think she has to flee suddenly. <P>Respect her boundaries...let her come to you with affection, if she chooses to. I think these hugs she "lets' you have are bigtime lovebusters.<P>Mike <P>

Thanks Mike I agree whole heartedly. I will stop with the hugs and I love yous. Wow, when I came home for good tonight so she could go to work she seemed very depressed. One word answers, her head hung, seemingly very miserable. I feel terrible. I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I don't think I am. She has this thing about her where she wants to show me how miserable we can be living together now. She may very well become involved with someone now for spite. She seems hell bent on showing me how unhappy she is now. It is strange though because earlier in my journey I would have fallen apart today. I handled it as well as I knew how. It bothers me that she is so sad, and miserable acting but there is nothing I can do about it. She may flee. She does feel trapped but the problem is she wants me to make her decision easier for her by leaving. I now I can live without her! So if this marriage doesn't work I will survive. I will make someone a extra special husband. I hope it's my wife so bad because I love her so very much.

Bravo, impulsive! You did great! It seems clear that your changes have finally been "getting to" your wife. She has had to step up her internal efforts to raise her barriers against you and brought herself out of withdrawal into conflict. And you haven't given her any easy outs. She's going to have to work through her internal conflicts whether she likes it or not. (It's painful to watch, I know, but it's something she <I>needs</I> to go through.)<P>Maintaining the stand you took is absolutely crucial. (Although, personally, I wouldn't have offered to leave if she "tried" to make the marriage work. This is just too hard to measure. I would have refused to leave under <I>any</I> circumstances except a formally arbitrated plan for reconciliation similar to Lee Raffel's <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809225131/o/qid=987715006/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/102-3089218-5845760" TARGET=_blank>Controlled Separation</A>, and any departure from that plan would have resulted in me moving back.) You are entirely correct that she has romanticized the idea of divorce, and it is imperative that she shoulder the responsibility of any decision in that direction, and that she not be shielded from the consequences.<P>Stay the course, impulsive! Give her space when she demands it. Give her privacy when she demands it. And give her love all the time. If you respect her boundaries and return good for evil, she will be forced to manufacture reasons to attack you, and the more absurd her position becomes, the more likely it is that her schema will shatter. Or so I hope.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>I think that the hugging and kissing and ILYs are sort of you stealing fulfillment of your affection EN from her, and she resents it. It may also be what is making her think she has to flee suddenly. <P>Respect her boundaries...let her come to you with affection, if she chooses to. I think these hugs she "lets' you have are bigtime lovebusters.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure about this. I don't think we're really in a position to tell. It was risky, but that <I>might</I> have been exactly the <I>right</I> thing to do at the time. I don't suppose we'll ever know.<P>The thing is, she didn't pull away. And as low as she was feeling it's not likely that she would have <I>sought</I> affection herself. Still, she may have wanted and needed that affirmation desperately at the time. Don't forget that impulsive was demonstrating love and affection immediately after she had shown him some pretty severe rejection. That makes for a pretty potent message.<P>All the same, I think it would be a bad idea to make a habit of it under current circumstances!<BR>

GDP, I have to go along with Mike on the affection thing. Impulsive's situation seems very similar to how mine was about six months ago (with the exception that my W was having an affair), and I too thought that an extra long hug, a nice kiss, etc, were signs of progress.<P>But inevitably, I would always be told days later that this affection was "killing" her... <P>I think Impulsive should limit himself to showing his love in non-physical ways. If his W comes to him for affection, by all means, he should be a willing participant, but cut it off at first sign of pulling away, lest he be accused (in her mind) of going for the cheap thrills...<P>Just IMO, of course.<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Wow, when I came home for good tonight so she could go to work she seemed very depressed. One word answers, her head hung, seemingly very miserable. I feel terrible. I feel like I'm doing something wrong, but I don't think I am. She has this thing about her where she wants to show me how miserable we can be living together now. She may very well become involved with someone now for spite. She seems hell bent on showing me how unhappy she is now.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps you're reading a bit much into this, impulsive. I suspect your wife really <I>is</I> that miserable, and she's not just trying to <I>show</I> you how unhappy she is. And I don't blame you for feeling terrible. It hurts to see those we love suffer. But I'm glad you realize that the guilt you feel is probably false guilt. We desperately want to believe that there is something we can do for our hurting loved ones, and we feel that we have failed them when we can't make it all better for them. But some journeys have to be made alone.<P>impulsive, do you <I>really</I> believe that your wife would get involved with someone else for <I>spite</I>? Sure, she's vulnerable right now, but spite requires pre-meditation, and I get the impression that your wife is lashing out without thought, like a drowning swimmer.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It is strange though because earlier in my journey I would have fallen apart today. I handled it as well as I knew how. It bothers me that she is so sad, and miserable acting but there is nothing I can do about it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you've finally gotten your perspective about where it needs to be, impulsive! And you're right, it's just in the nick of time. Things could really start to get rocky now as your wife's hiding place no longer seems secure to her and she seeks desperately for another. Strive for empathy, impulsive. You will not believe how much your love will grow, and how your own pain will become unimportant and easy to bear.<P>The timing, I truly believe, is the hand of the Lord. In my own life, it seemed that as soon as I was finally able to get my depression under control, my wife left me. But the important thing is that it was <I>after</I> I had learned the attitudes and skills I needed to cope. It was as if God said to me, "I've shown you what you need to know, and now it's your wife's turn." God doesn't give us more than we can bear (although he sure seems to take us to the edge a lot!).<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B>GDP, I have to go along with Mike on the affection thing. Impulsive's situation seems very similar to how mine was about six months ago (with the exception that my W was having an affair), and I too thought that an extra long hug, a nice kiss, etc, were signs of progress.<P>But inevitably, I would always be told days later that this affection was "killing" her... <P>I think Impulsive should limit himself to showing his love in non-physical ways. If his W comes to him for affection, by all means, he should be a willing participant, but cut it off at first sign of pulling away, lest he be accused (in her mind) of going for the cheap thrills...<P>Just IMO, of course.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>AGG, I agree entirely. But think about what your wife meant when she said your affection was "killing" her. She probably felt unworthy and guilty, and found these feelings unbearable. At that point, she had a choice. She could repent, open her heart, and accept your love. Or she could run.<P>There's a reason why a dilemma is said to have horns. Dilemmas are <I>painful</I>. But sometimes being "thrust upon the horns of a dilemma" is exactly what we need to move forward in our lives.<P>As I said, what impulsive did was risky. I don't recommend it. But it <I>may</I> have done more good than harm, and I hope he doesn't kick himself for doing it.<BR>