<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Had a hard time last night. Little things like her not saying goodnight, and her coming home and just going into her room and going to sleep bothers the heck out of me. I'm starting to question my resolve a little. Is this all worth it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Go ahead and question. When you tally up the price for staying the course, and the price for quitting, I think you'll find that while they're both extremely costly, the price for quitting is higher. Furthermore, the rewards offered by quitting are no more guaranteed than the rewards offered by staying.<P>I think the more you understand <I>why</I> you are doing what you are doing, the stronger your resolve will become. Right now, I think your resolve is primarily under attack by your frustration. You're chafing at the short-term unfairness of the situation (forgetting the long-term aspects), and you're having a hard time dealing with your inability to fix or control the situation. When you're not used to having no control, there is a strong temptation to relieve your frustration by <I>taking</I> control.<P>The only way you can seem to control the situation is by taking the initiative and walking out of it. What you have to realize is that such "control" is an illusion, a meaningless salve to the ego. You cannot control the situation, impulsive. You can only control yourself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She seems to be in the mode where it's like well if you want to stay here you can stay but there will be minimum interaction, no affection, limited convesation, and sooner or later he will get tired of that and leave.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If it's a waiting game she wants, well, both of you can play. But you want to watch carefully, though, that your wife is not sinking into a real depression. That she is avoiding you is only to be expected. That she is heading for bed immediately upon coming home is not a good sign.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If that's her thinking it's getting more and more effective. It's not just the lack of SF, it's also conversation, affection, admiration. I'm lonely and my spirits are about to take a down turn.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's good that you recognize this coming down turn, and that you don't think you can muscle your way through the emotional isolation by force of will alone. But now that you recognize what's coming, you can take steps to forestall it. You've <I>got</I> to find some local emotional support (<I>not</I> another woman, of course). You need to find someone to talk to, someone who will support you and the stand you are taking.<P>When my wife moved out the first time, I went to my parents and one local friend for support. That was all the support I needed, since my wife and I were still working on our relationship. When she moved out the second time, cutting off all contact with me and then filing for divorce, I recognized immediately that I needed all the help I could get. I sought and got support from as many friends as I could find, even going back to renew contact with friends I hadn't seen or spoken to in years.<P>The good thing about my situation and yours, impulsive, is that we do not have to reveal dirty secrets in order to get support. We don't have to tear down our wives in order to get support; we can defend our wives and urge sympathy for them and <I>still</I> get the support we need.<BR>

Well the difficult part from my percpective is that she seems to be so miserable with her current circumstances. I know for a fact that had I had my wake up call a long time ago we would be so much happier now. I also know that if she could allow herself to give the marriage one more college try, we could and would be extremely happy. She is struggling with her own internal issues also that have nothing to do with me. The nicer I am the more impatient and cranky she seems to get. I really don't like waiting game because it seems like such a war of atrition. Let's make love not war! The very nice weather did not help my mood today. It was actually depressing. Depressing because spring reminds me of summer and family fun, and outside family activities. Seeing that my marriage is somewhere between a rock and a hard place I don't feel the 70 degree beautiful day optimism that I'm sure millions felt after a long cold winter. Support is a interesting question. Friends that don't have any MB sense or relationship saving expertice can be distracting. Having someone tell you that your being a fool go and put your foot down while you in the middle of a pretty successful plan A can set you back little.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Well the difficult part from my percpective is that she seems to be so miserable with her current circumstances. I know for a fact that had I had my wake up call a long time ago we would be so much happier now. I also know that if she could allow herself to give the marriage one more college try, we could and would be extremely happy. She is struggling with her own internal issues also that have nothing to do with me.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My wife's pain is the most difficult part for <I>me</I> to deal with also. But, impulsive, you <I>don't</I> know for a fact that your wife would have been spared this misery if your wakeup call had come earlier. As you say yourself, she has her own internal issues that have nothing to do with you. Maybe she would have had to come to this point in <I>any</I> case in order to work through those issues.<P>I made plenty of mistakes in my marriage, out of ignorance and misunderstanding. I know my depression was hard on my wife. But even when I was at my most depressed, I dragged myself out of bed when I needed to, and I fulfilled my responsibilities. I truly believe that my wife could not have had a better husband than me. We were very complementary, in ways that encouraged both of us to grow, and I was d****** good to her.<P>She left me anyway.<P>There's really no point in second-guessing at this stage. God can work out good from any situation if we let him.<BR>

I working to maintain a positive attitude and not let things bother me. I did say something to her today about her not saying goodnight. I then felt stupid immediately. She said that she was not intending on going to sleep, she just drifted off, and then I came and woke her up saying why didn't you say goodnight. No matter how hard I try little stupid things like that seem to get under my skin then I respond and can't see the forest for the trees. Afterwards I'm left feeling like the village idiot. I need to reach the point where I don't care anymore. Controlled apathy. Apathy that allows me to stop responding to every little percieved slight, and yet able to come across as loving and supportive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I need to reach the point where I don't care anymore. Controlled apathy. Apathy that allows me to stop responding to every little percieved slight, and yet able to come across as loving and supportive.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not controlled apathy. Controlled empathy. Where you don't respond to a perceived slight because you automatically look for a way <I>not</I> to see it as a slight.<BR>

I'm at a strange place right now mentally. On one hand I am extremely frustrated with the apparent level of apathy that the wife exhibits more and more on a daily basis. She seems more distant by the day. For some reasoon it seems like she is more determined then ever to not reengage in the marriage. Last night I was very depressed. I go out of my way not to let her know or notice my depression. Tonight I feel more energized and patient. I don't know why but I feel as though I can endure. I'm hurting and it don't feel good but, I understand that she felt like I feel for a long time so to give up at this point would be like a easy escape. I will endure as long as it takes, until A) there is infidelity B) this situation becomes counterproductive to the emotional or mental well being of my children. I'm one of those people that believe that adults should get past their hangups for the kid's sake. The kid's never asked to be here. We as parents have a unbelievable responsibility to provide our children with stable, loving, and nurturing homes equipped with two parents. I pray that God softens her heart and I have a opportunity to be a example of what God can turn around if you allow him to.

Give it all up to God tonight, Imp. Do your best, walk in God's will, and let her have her space to make her decisions. Your kids will get through if you stay in your plan and keep close to God. God loves you. Pray that your wife is filled with His love tonight too. <P>This is a really big change for all of you. No one knows how she is going to come out ultimately. So don't lose faith. You have a lifetime committed to her already. Just keep on the narrow path.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B> <BR>I will endure as long as it takes, until A) there is infidelity B) this situation becomes counterproductive to the emotional or mental well being of my children. </B> [QUOTE]<P>I am glad to see that you have yoru boundaries but I have to say that I take issue with the first one - even if there is infidelity, your marriage can still be saved. If it were not so, I would not be here and neither would lots of the other people here. I stand in awe of K, who W produced a child out of the A and they are raising the child as a part of their family and still working on their marriage. So be careful about your boundaries. <P>[QUOTE] <B><BR>I'm one of those people that believe that adults should get past their hangups for the kid's sake. The kid's never asked to be here. We as parents have a unbelievable responsibility to provide our children with stable, loving, and nurturing homes equipped with two parents. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Quite right, but um, don't let your wife hear you voice these sentiments because she will blast and rightly so - because she will ask how come you did not succumb to this philosophy all those years when you were 'farting' around, eh? Just a caution.<P>With regard to your kids, I have been meaning to ask how you are helping them to deal with this. I do not have kids and would suggest that if you need help on that, you start a new thread and ask the parents here for the help that you might need. But I do believe that you should be as honest as is appropriate for their age and recognize that they must be stressed out by this too. Admit to them that you and mommy are having problems but you are doing your best to resolve them and that BOTH you and mommy love them veyr much and always will no matter what. I am not a big fan of counseling for kids unless it is absolutely necessary but it might help if they can talk to someone about the confusions and fears that they are feeling. It is very important to let them know that this is an adult problem and they are not required to take sides with one parent or the other - they can still love both their parents equally. I remember that was an issue that I had to deal with as a kid.<P>Anyway, congrats on keeping it together. God bless.<P>Leanna<P>

dcope/impulsive,<P>How much have you and the wife spoken of money lately? What does she know about what's coming in, and what's in the pipeline? Does she get concrete details from you? In a format she can understand? She needs to know that you're doing enough. That you're doing all you can. That things are looking up. And that you're selflessly doing this even though major progress will be accompanied by her gaining the perceived freedom to leave if she wishes. In fact, you might even allow it to be explicit: that you are bringing the family's finances up even though it will give her a fund with which to depart. <P>I'm sure some will flame me for this, but you might even set aside a family savings account denominated "W's Mad Money", meaning that it's a nest egg specifically intended to allow her to depart (though you make it clear that you don't want that result). I think it would go a long way toward allaying her feelings of being trapped, and toward recasting in her mind your love for her--as an absolute love, rather than a clinging and cringing attachment. If you do it, make sure that she has control over it, and that you can't touch it. It will be emotionally tough on you. But keep in mind that she will do it secretly anyway, if she really intends to leave (I'm assuming she does), and that she will *blame* you for her guilt at having to do such a thing (logic being in short supply when a spouse falls out of love [or into love, for that matter]).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>dcope/impulsive,<P>I'm sure some will flame me for this, but you might even set aside a family savings account denominated "W's Mad Money", meaning that it's a nest egg specifically intended to allow her to depart (though you make it clear that you don't want that result). I think it would go a long way toward allaying her feelings of being trapped, and toward recasting in her mind your love for her--as an absolute love, rather than a clinging and cringing attachment. If you do it, make sure that she has control over it, and that you can't touch it. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I agree 100% percent with this - just I had suggested earlier - she needs to know that you really do love and not just love her as long as she stays in the marriage. Giving her control over her own money like this will make her feel more in control. Adn that is important if she is feeling trapped.<BR>

The farther away I allow myself to be the better we seem to get along. Is it normal that I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with distance between us? I'm forcing myself to not even think of her as my wife. I have to think about her as a friend. As a wife I attach a expectation. Considering the circumstances my expectations won't be met so there is a immediate feeling of frustration connected to the unmet expectations. As a friend I don't have any of those expectations thus no frustration. The problem with this is that I'm getting more and more comfortable with thinking about her as just a friend. It's starting to scare me because the thoughts of her being a wife to me seems more and more remote.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>The farther away I allow myself to be the better we seem to get along. Is it normal that I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with distance between us?</B><P>Yeah, it's called going into withdrawal. Withdrawal isn't a painful place, it is sort of safe and warm, no one else to mess up your game. It is coming out that hurts.<P>Impy, you ignored my post awhile back about FS. Did you W's recent ice age start when the car problem surfaced? Could it be that the car issue set her back in terms of progress on the FS EN?<P>I think that is where you need to focus. When we were struggling financially some years back, man, my W couldn't spend a second of thought or emotion on anything else.....<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>The farther away I allow myself to be the better we seem to get along. Is it normal that I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with distance between us? I'm forcing myself to not even think of her as my wife. I have to think about her as a friend. As a wife I attach a expectation. Considering the circumstances my expectations won't be met so there is a immediate feeling of frustration connected to the unmet expectations. As a friend I don't have any of those expectations thus no frustration. The problem with this is that I'm getting more and more comfortable with thinking about her as just a friend. It's starting to scare me because the thoughts of her being a wife to me seems more and more remote. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, impulsive, the feelings are normal. For years, I couldn't figure out whether I was a husband pretending to be a roommate or a roommate pretending to be a husband. I wouldn't worry too much about the feelings, as long as your attitudes and behaviors are what you want them to be.<BR>

Mike, I do think that FS is huge for her now. I'm working as hard as I can. We are getting closer but it's still a slow road. So I'm slipping into withdrawal?

dcope/impulsive,<P>Just some thoughts. I think you may be forgetting that your wife is in withdrawal, will NOT deposit any love units in your bank, and will do a LOT of lovebusting as she comes out of withdrawal into conflict. If she sees your reaction to her withdrawal or her conflict sending you into depression again (which seems to be the cause of the rift between you), she will withdraw again and again. Not sure you have many chances of this cycle happening again before she totally gives up and moves out.<P>Seriously, are you on any anti-depressants? Dr. Harley recommends them almost universally for those following Plan A. And from your history, it sounds like you need something all the time. I know if I were withdrawn from a spouse who suffered depression and he had not sought medical treatment yet, I'd be pretty convinced he was going to slip down that slope again. If you are on treatment do you feel it's effective? Dr's have to adjust those meds all the time when it's not working.<P>You seem pretty upset that she is not meeting your needs (sf, affection, admiration). She really won't for quite a while. Keep in mind that you did not meet her needs for a certain number of months (not sure how long) and she still hasn't left you. I sense from your attitude that you think she is not meeting your needs just to be cruel to you. But she is withdrawn, and focusing on her own needs and how to meet them by herself. May be a long while before she comes out of withdrawal, and even allows you to meet more of her needs, then she may start meeting yours.<P>Instead of thinking of her as not your wife, think of her as your wife that *you* have helped damage, and remember you are trying to better yourself, and not depend upon your wife to meet all your needs (meet them yourself and find emotional support too). You may not feel strong enough to do all that, which is why you need to find some support. The appearance of that strength will really impress your wife. You shouldn't appear to desparately need her while she is withdrawn - remember how you appeared to her while you were courting her.<P>I've enjoyed following your thread - I really think you have a good chance if you can stay the course. You've only been plan A'ing for a little bit (I think Harley says 6 months is a good try, and your wife's only been withdrawn for around 2?)<P>

Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Mike, I do think that FS is huge for her now. I'm working as hard as I can. We are getting closer but it's still a slow road.</B><P>Are you working as SMART as you can? Try to have a communications campaign on FS with your W...one positive message per day about finances. Restructure your debt -- rates are lower. Cut YOUR household expenses where you can, and make sure she knows. Get bids on car insurance, household insurance, etc. Put a plan together to build savings. Have a planning consultant come in -- they're free. Look for a higher paying job -- she'll note the search. <P>Show effort and concern.<P><B>So I'm slipping into withdrawal?</B>[/QUOTE]<P>I'm not sure you really are, since you are still making efforts on her needs. I forget the exact definition. You need help from your W to turn it around, and I think that FS progress is the key. Don't obsess on your state...you are "MB enlightened" and can hopefully turn it around when your W wakes up. <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited April 27, 2001).]

I have really been in a worry free, stressless, joy filled zone lately. The wife and I have been getting along excellently. No SF, but wasn't expecting any either. Anyway, yesterday she said the darnest things to me. She said "you know you are such a angel now." "Compared to what you used to be you are the perfect husband and father now". She also said that she has come to realize that the problem with our marriage is not me, but it's her. It's her inability to let go of the past. She does not know how to go forward. She said she recognizes that I have made some unbelievable changes!, but that she does not know how to forget about the past and go forward. She said you know I know you don't want to hear this but Who ever you date or marry after us, is going to be so damn lucky it makes her sick because NOW I'm the perfect husband. She says that she is at a place where she sees it but does not know how to act on it. I resisted the urge to push or try to get her to see my perspective so I just hugged her and said you will be fine. She has intitiated several hugs lately. Just saying nice things from time to time. My mother has been in town for the last 4 days so my wife and I has been sharing the same bed and she has been cuddling pretty regularly but again I surpressed my urge to act impulsively. She said the othe night is it ok if I cuddle with you because your body is so warm? I said of course you can and in the future you never need permission to cuddle. So things seem kind of surreal. I'm enjoying a sense of peace and calm through the storm that I never experienced before in my life. Plan A went from the most hellism experience of my life to actual enjoyment ALMOST!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I have really been in a worry free, stressless, joy filled zone lately. The wife and I have been getting along excellently. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dr. Jekyl, good to see you again <P>As I said to you a few weeks ago, quoting Steve Harley to me, you have her confused, and that is good. At some point she will decide that the future is better with you than without you, and then her actions and feelings will follow.<P>But keep Mr. Hyde in the basement <P>Mike

I LOVE IT!<P>Does your wife share your spiritual faith? <P>Does she consider herself a Jew, Christian or Moslem of any stripe?<P>Does she understand repentance, forgiveness, grace etc? <P>Does she believe God will forgive you? Or forgive HER? <P>A loving conversation on a higher level may open another little door.

Thank God for the SF Fairy!!! After a three and a half week famine. SHAZAM!! HOOWAAA!! While in the same bed for the last night seeing my mother left early this morning, my wife made a mistake, she accidentally scooted her backside into my stiffy and it proved to be more then she could bear. Above average SF, and no negative ramifications afterwards. The wife is not as spiritual as I am. She believes in God but does not have a close relationship with him. She was baptised Catholic, but was helped raised by very devout Jehovah's Witness grandparents. She seems to have issues with forgiveness. I think some of it goes back to her childhood and the sexual abuse that occurred then. She also told me that she feels that I deserve to have someone in my life that will appreciate how wonderful I am now and that she doesn't know if she will ever be able to be the type of person that I deserve. I find this absolutely ironic considering that I was the idiot for as long as I was. I wish I could get her some help but she refuses to talk to anyone. Is there any advice or suggestions for her out there? I really am starting to see the benefits of a successful plan A! (I think)