<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She also told me that she feels that I deserve to have someone in my life that will appreciate how wonderful I am now and that she doesn't know if she will ever be able to be the type of person that I deserve.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You need to seriously question her about what she thinks she needs to be in order to be with you. Why doesn't she think that just being herself is enough? It's enough for you, isn't it? You're not trying to "get what you deserve", you're trying to hold on to the one you chose, till death do you part. If she somehow feels wrong or unworthy, she should simply continue to do what she feels she must, and you will keep doing what she did all those years: wait. She needs to understand that even large problems, huge problems, can be overcome with love and patience. That marriage is intended to be <I>forever</I>, not just until honeymoon feelings have faded. That you've accepted a lot of hard realities about yourself, and her, and your lives together, and that you're keeping the pressure off, but the rebuilding on. <P>The urge to divorce is like the urge to jump off a boat because it has started pitching violently. You might have a good life preserver, and be able to make land, or find another boat, or get picked up by a helicopter. But if the boat is sound and the bilge pumps aren't falling behind, why not wait it out and see if things aren't a whole lot better when the storm clears? If you do otherwise, there's a good chance of drowning too.<P>People who are able to forgive gain more than the people who are forgiven. It's a hard lesson, it goes against logic. And it's one what I myself have struggled with and continue to struggle with as I get through each day without sending a damning CD-RW to my ex-wife's boss. Soon, I think, I'll be able to send it back to her. So far, I haven't been able to bring myself to do that. I fear she might think it weakness, or a license to take advantage in some final details of the divorce settlement. I've never expicitly told her I had it, but she knows I'm on these boards and she may have lurked. Each time I've been close to returning it, I've perceived a little jab to my dignity (not always actually delivered by her intentionally) that has pushed me back into disgruntlement. <P>But at some point, I'll do the right thing. I know it. Maybe you can get your wife into that mindset ... one of patience with herself and you. For the moment, she needs to understand that while you're <I>not</I> satisfied with the status quo (part of the problem is that you've previously been willing to offer only a crappy status quo--the other day I heard of a company whose philosophy was that status quo is a slow death), you <I>are</I> willing to be patient, ready to avoid pressuring her, and able to keep working on yourself without strokes from her. Time continues to be on your side. Do what you can to keep buying it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>While in the same bed for the last night seeing my mother left early this morning, my wife made a mistake, she accidentally scooted her backside into my stiffy and it proved to be more then she could bear. Above average SF, and no negative ramifications afterwards. The wife is not as spiritual as I am. She believes in God but does not have a close relationship with him.</B><P>Let's see if we can all agree where an appropriate paragraph break would go in the above <P>You don't need advice, Imp, you are a Plan A vet. Remember to respect her boundaries and not overreact to the SF. She may feel the need to slap you down now out of "guilt" for giving in....don't give her an easy excuse.<P>Mike<P><BR>

Once again, impulsive, the rapidity of positive change in your relationship astounds me. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She also said that she has come to realize that the problem with our marriage is not me, but it's her. It's her inability to let go of the past. She does not know how to go forward. She said she recognizes that I have made some unbelievable changes!, but that she does not know how to forget about the past and go forward. She said you know I know you don't want to hear this but Who ever you date or marry after us, is going to be so damn lucky it makes her sick because NOW I'm the perfect husband. She says that she is at a place where she sees it but does not know how to act on it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is likely more true than you think. If your wife did not have good parental models, dealing with a functional husband may be disconcerting and frightening for her. Many (most?) people from abusive backgrounds choose partners that they think they can count on to maintain a distance, and that will give them a sense of familiarity. They actually <I>run</I> from healthy relationships because they do not know how to deal with them. They are frightened of the unknown, and moving relationships out of the realm of dysfunction risks highlighting their own internal dysfunctions.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She also told me that she feels that I deserve to have someone in my life that will appreciate how wonderful I am now and that she doesn't know if she will ever be able to be the type of person that I deserve. I find this absolutely ironic considering that I was the idiot for as long as I was. I wish I could get her some help but she refuses to talk to anyone.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wonder what people are really trying to say when they talk about what they or their spouses deserve. What people want seldom has anything to do with what they deserve, and let's face it, the world isn't fair. I think it is much more important to talk about needs and wants than about what is deserved.<P>Your wife is going to need help, impulsive. Not just for your marriage, but for herself. If she won't agree to counseling (individual or marital), is she willing to read books?<BR>

GDP, she is not a book reader either. I don't know what to do at this point. We are getting along so well I just have to maintain a positive attitude and no pressure. It's funny how SF works. You can go 30 days with none but as soon as you get some you think you need it daily all of a sudden.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>It's funny how SF works. You can go 30 days with none but as soon as you get some you think you need it daily all of a sudden. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I forget where I read this, but somebody said that when the sex is really good, it increases the female's drive and sates the males.<P>Anyway...one thing I've been thinking about, Impy. Many people, particularly men, equate sex with love. So, she has sex with you, it myust be a sign that she loves you. She doesn't have sex, she mustn't love you. When I spoke with Harley on this topic, he cautioned me against this, and said that you have to separate physical need from emotional state sometimes. Maybe your W has a physical need for sex every 2 weeks. The fact that she turns to you is certainly not a negative, but it is not necessarily a harbinger of a sea change in her emotional feelings either. Likewise, the weeks in between w/o sex are not a sign that she hates you, just a sign that her physical need is not present, and she is not yet in a place where she is ready for regular lovemaking.<P>Just a point to ponder that may help take the highs and lows out of your journey. <BR>

This thing is getting pretty long! Question. Is it ok for me to put a time limit on my Plan A? I have three months in now, and I was thinking three more and I'm out is that reasonable or am I being impatient?

Only you can set the time for how long you can wait for her. Six months is a reasonable time for a mate to Plan A while the other dithers about cutting off a physical affair. You haven't believed that she is having an affair. When the WS finally ends contact, s/he is still in pain and withdrawal. Look on the infidelity boards to see what a reasonable time for reconnection after the no-contact letter might be. <P>Six months is a little bit impatient in my book, especially since you have taken the blame for so much. But not all that impatient. <P>Why not go ahead on the six month plan, and reevaluate your durability at that time? As long as you feel like you are growing and improving at a good clip don't worry about the future. Let's talk about it again in 12 weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I was thinking three more and I'm out is that reasonable or am I being impatient?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are the words "until I've taken all I can reasonably be expected to take" part of <I>your</I> marriage vows? Love doesn't conquer problems by being reasonable. <BR>

In my opinion, the main reason to terminate Plan A is entrenched complacency on the part of the WS. Remember, Plan A is primarily geared toward affair situations, in which the WS is getting ENs met by the OP. Plan A is designed to induce internal conflict in the WS, in the hope that the discrepancy between the WS's experience and the WS's spousal schema will eventually break down the "fog" and impel the WS to make a choice. However, since Plan A involves the BS meeting the WS's ENs <I>in addition to</I> the OP, there is a real risk that the WS will settle in and just enjoy all the love bank deposits. When this happens, it's necessary to go to Plan B to provide a reality check.<P>The <I>secondary</I> reason to go to Plan B is when Plan A becomes too difficult emotionally for the BS to sustain.<P>In <I>your</I> case, impulsive, you are seeing good progress on the part of your wife, and there is apparently no OP involved. As long as you make sure you take care of yourself, you have no reason to abandon Plan A.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I have three months in now, and I was thinking three more and I'm out is that reasonable or am I being impatient?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"out"? Out in what way? Out of Plan A, back to being a selfish d**k? (I was one too, so I can say that) Or out of the marriage, as in telling her you want to separate?<P>My experience with speaking with Harley is, if there is no OP you keep on keeping on, on the supposition that every day is progress. In reality, I think that the Plan Aer and a withdrawn spouse drift apart due to unmet needs, and they both become highly susceptible to outside temptation. So...read your future there.<P>Now, after some period of time, (maybe a year to 18 months) if you feel your love dying, might an ultimatum to her be appropriate? <shrug> Like, 'go to counseling or let's separate?' Or 'start trying to meet each other's needs on a regular basis or let's pack it in'? I don't know. I would talk to Harley before doing that.<P>When I was about three months in, I made a similar suggestion to Harley in counseling, like "maybe I should just say I quit, because she isn't trying" He said "Right now, that is what she expects, and she would just drift along with whatever you want. You have to change her perception, and you are undoing 12 year of neglect. It won't be unwound in 90 days.'<P><BR>

I don't know what's happening to me but my unmet needs are starting to take a toll on me. I feel so empty any lonely I really don't know how much more I can take. I feel myself slipping into a dangerously downward spiral of despair. I know everyone is going to say that I need to get my taker under control, but my taker has been in starvation mode for over 3 months now and I feel trapped. I feel like I can't fill the space with female companionship because I'm still married, and I still respect and honor my vows. Unlike her I still wear my wedding band and consider myself very much married. I can't walk away because I feel like I would be giving up. I grown tremendously but I'm not getting a opportunity to put it to work. She told me today that she's starting to feel my pain, and it botheres her that I'm this wonderful person and that when she was trying I wasn't. I told her I understand how she feels and it frustrates me also. The problem is I think she drifting farther and farther away and there is nothing I can do. All I could tell her is I'm sorry and I keep coming to her and trying to flip the light switch from time to time because I'm hopeing I might get lucky and that light comes on. The only other thing I could tell her is that if the light ever does come back on I will spend my life making sure it never goes back off!!! I had to leave the house today because I'm depressed all of a sudden and I don't know how to rebound this time like other times. I need help getting either back on right path, or maybe it time to go down another path. I'm suffering here big time. Please help people.

Relationship talk #25<BR>Result: Crash And Burn Again<P>I didn't intiate it but she felt the need to tell me unsolitcited that she as been as honest and truthful as she can be. By that she means that no matter how much I've changed she will never give the marriage another try. I can be the most wonderful husband on the face of the earth but I cried wolf to many times and she can and will never allow herself to go back. She says divorce is inevitable and all we are doing is postponeing it. She also says I should stop spending so much time trying to convince her I'm different. She already knows I'm different but that is not the point. This woman has fortified her position and I'm spitting in the wind. I doubt have the stamina to sustain this level of rejection and pain and lack of intimacy. I need help I feel like I'm wasting my time and this is a impossible and insurmountable challange.

Do I just cut to the chase and move out and get on with the ruins of a life that I have. I never want to give up but i don't see any progress at all. I could move out by the 1st of the month and get on with my life. I'm going to tell her that I will let her go, and I will give up. This seems to be what she wants anyway. I'm the only jerk sitting around praying that this thing can turn around, and she is dead set against letting it turn around NO MATTER WHAT!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>By that she means that no matter how much I've changed she will never give the marriage another try. I can be the most wonderful husband on the face of the earth but I cried wolf to many times and she can and will never allow herself to go back. She says divorce is inevitable and all we are doing is postponeing it. She also says I should stop spending so much time trying to convince her I'm different. She already knows I'm different but that is not the point. This woman has fortified her position and I'm spitting in the wind. I doubt have the stamina to sustain this level of rejection and pain and lack of intimacy. I need help I feel like I'm wasting my time and this is a impossible and insurmountable challange.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><sigh> I'm sorry, Impy. She does seem entrenched right now, but you have to remember that emotions wax and wane and turn on a dime. You have overcome virtually all of the concrete issues in your relationship. The last barrier is her feelings, and she is afraid to let that one down. I think she is making these statements because she perceives pressure, which is also evident in your recent posts. If you can find away to remove that pressure, to make yourself happy with other activities, you will be making great progress. I think your W sees your ravenous Taker at the gate, and thinks that as soon as she lets down her guard, it will be back to the old days of take, take, take. You can continually tell her you've changed and that things will be different, but she can probably sense your pent-up needs, and is afraid to put herself back in the position of having to meet them. I think sometimes guys think "well, I'm not having sex, so she must be noticing that my Taker is under control." But the mopey look, that hangdog expression, the subtle body languiage that a mate can't help but pick up, can be worse than anything else, as it comes tinged with guilt. So, to alleviate her guilt, she feels the need to back you off by reiterating her current mental divorce.<P>I think more marriages at your stage, at my stage, die because of surrender rather than terminal illness.<P>You need to find some other (non-sexual) activities to pour your time into and find some pleasures in. Give her more time for your changes to sink in, and let her feel the freedom of no pressure on your needs. I know you have been doing a great job on that, but it takes a long time. Each slip sets you back, so progress takes time.<P>The hard part is over -- you have retrained yourself to be an expert husband, she has noticed this, and the last barrier is her feelings. Hang in there!<P>Mike <BR>

impulsive, <I>please</I> listen to Mike. I really have nothing else to add.<BR>

Thanks Mike,<BR>I really am trying my hardest to be patient. I'm trying not to apply any pressure. I don't intiate talks or even mention my needs because I'm scared of these setbacks. It's almost like a cruel joke. Every other aspect of my life is really coming together except my marriage. All she can tell me now is how liberated she feels and how proud of me she is. She said she would rather struggle as a single mother then try again with me. That blows me away. She wants to be friends, but friends with boundaries. I respect those boundaries. Surrender is what I'm trying to avoid. It's getting harder and harder to avoid because my taker is in starvation mode. I can sacrifice my taker as long as I see some progress, but she seems to be slipping farther away. That is where the hopelessness comes in.

From one of your very first posts:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Whenever she talks it about the future when we live apart, and how fun we are going to make it for the kids by being such good friends. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>This is just one idea, there's no knowledge on my part that your wife would process these things in a way that would be helpful. Some wives could be affected by this line of argument, others would be unaffected, or perhaps even negatively affected. <P>Perhaps it's time to start marshalling the mental, financial, and other arguments against divorce -- for the purposes of taking a stand.<P>Tell her there's no pressure, she's not trapped, you can't make this decision for her. But you have decisions of your own that you will make, and they won't be ones that she will like. Nor will she like her new circumstances, once the initial rush of freedom (which is not really freedom, just its degenerate cousin <I>licence</I>) wears off.<P>1. Statistics about what divorce does to children.<P>2. Statistics that show that divorced women see their economic circumstances decline.<P>3. Statistics that show that divorced men suffer illnesses and premature death. <P>4. Whatever else you can find to throw in the hopper. <P>Your point would be that you won't be good friends after a divorce, because divorce is the one betrayal you will not be able to tolerate. You will oppose her efforts to divorce if she makes such a foolish choice, and you certainly won't initiate any divorce of your own. <P>You will of course provide financially for your progeny, but she can look forward to you giving as little as possible to her. <P>This is not your Taker talking, this is your Giver saying "look what happens if you destroy my hope."<P>She saw nothing wrong with making herself clear and taking a stand, and you made the changes you needed to make, although they were long overdue. If you are respectful about it, I see nothing wrong with you taking a stand and making it clear to her. <P>Obviously, something is keeping her in the house with you. It might be uncertainty, or inertia, or reluctance to hurt you any more, or her need to amass a nest egg in order to leave. You need to enhance that item while reducing the forces that drive her to want to leave. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 14, 2001).]

<BR>First off, Listen to Mike. Do not quit!! DO NOT SURRENDER! Yuo have come a long way and you have a long way to go, but you can do it and you must stick with it in order to be true to yourself and know that you did not give up just because things got rough.<P>Second, you asked if six months was enough to Plan A then 'out'. I remember posting a letter to you from Harley to a guy who was in a very similiar situation to you. He had neglected and mistreated his wife for many years and was now trying while she was set on moving on. Harley told him to Plan A for 2 years up to the divorce, then continue Plan Aing for another 2 years. So there is your answer. And the truth is that your wife tried with you for alot longer than 6 months before giving up - I don't remember how long you have been married but I know it is several years. As has been said many times before, you can't undo the damage of years in months. Stick with it. <P>[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I can be the most wonderful husband on the face of the earth but I cried wolf to many times and she can and will never allow herself to go back. </B><P>You know, I may be way off base here, but I think you are getting to her. The very fact that she feels the need to state this means that the new you is affecting her positiviely. And she feels the need to continue to try to deny that. <P><B>She says divorce is inevitable and all we are doing is postponeing it. </B><P>Blah, blah, blah. Sorry, but this is more to convince herself than you. If she were so sure believe me she would have left already, financial problems or no! Her own convictions are waning and she is trying to strengthen her resolve. Tell me, why is she postponig the divorce? We know why you are - but her? And don't belive that finances are wholly responsible. No, she is postpoining too because she thinks there is a chance in the back of her mind. And all the good things you are doing is making that thought come to the forefront more and more often.<P><B>She also says I should stop spending so much time trying to convince her I'm different. She already knows I'm different but that is not the point. </B><P>yup, yup - stop trying to convince her and make it easy for her to walk away without trying. You see, imps, she knows in the back of her mind that this marriage and you deserve another chance, if only for the sake of the kids, but she made up her mind and is reluctant to go back on that and place herself in the danger of being hurt again - that is all. Everything you do to show her what a good husband you are now and could (maybe) continue to be, forces her to reconsider and that is painful and risky and difficult for her. So she is trying everythign she can to make you stop making her reconsider. But do not give in - it is easier for her to walk away than to try, and it is easier for you to walk away than to try, but do not take the easy road and do not let her take the easy road either. Keep going as you have been. Renew your resolve to stay committed to loving her. Don't flake after 3 months man, that is what she is expecting. She is testing you now, whether she knows it or not. She is testing to see if you are crying wolf again or if this is the real deal. If you break and run then she is justified in thinking that it could not last. But if you are firm in your commitmment to love her and your family then let her know that you love her still and will continue to do so. You are sorry if this causes her distress, but you are not going to revert to the old imps.<P><BR><B>This woman has fortified her position and I'm spitting in the wind. </B><P>Ah, but you might be wrong about this. It might be that this little 'outburst' is a sign of how close she is to losing that position that she has been clinging to. Remember the person who quietly shakes their head is much more sure of their position than the person who yells NO!. What I am trying to say is that the very fact that she felt the need to tell you all this might mean that she has definitely been thinking about reconciliation and is shocked that she is.<P><B>I doubt have the stamina to sustain this level of rejection and pain and lack of intimacy. I need help I feel like I'm wasting my time and this is a impossible and insurmountable challange.</B><P>Do you still pray imps? Do you still go to church? An insurmountable challenge? Crossing the red sea perhaps But God was there and he is here now for you imps. Turn to him, rely on your faith for strength. That is what he is there for. You can face anythign with him by your side. Just pray whenever it seems unbearable. 'God help me' is all it takes. And rest assured that he is there with you. Please stick with it. You've come to far to give up now. Keep posting. Start a new thread if you like. But keep Plan Aing and have faith. Post and let us know how you are.<P>Leanna<BR>

impulsive, you shouldn't be starving your taker. Sure, your taker can't have what it wants most, but so what? Find ways to keep your taker distracted and occupied.<P>I agree with Leanna that your wife is really trying to convince <I>herself</I> of what she is saying, and that she is testing you. She is caught between what she fears and what she wants (that would be <I>you</I>, impulsive), and the stress is getting to her. If she can get <I>you</I> to leave, then it takes all the pressure off her. She will be able to persuade herself that her fears were all justified, and she will then probably go on to spend the rest of her life entrenched in her fear of being hurt again.<P>Is that what you want for her, impulsive?<P>I think Sisyphus may be right that it would be wise for you to make preparations for taking a stand against divorce. However, I would <I>not</I> advise taking your argument to your wife unless she actually makes a move in that direction.<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>All she can tell me now is how liberated she feels and how proud of me she is. She said she would rather struggle as a single mother then try again with me. That blows me away. She wants to be friends, but friends with boundaries.</B><P>I know this analogy works more often with someone in an affair, but in this situation I think it helps to look upon your mate as temporarily insane.<P>She is emotionally conflicted now to such a degree that the symptoms are the same. She has a long history of love and intimacy with you, and a family to think about. She sees your changes, and acknowledges that you are now a wonderful father and husband. She occasionally breaks down and makes love with you. But her heart wants to see more evidence. You can't unwind ten years of being a jerk in 3 months....ask the man that knows <P>She isn't leaving, she is still there to Plan A on, so that is the Plan. You need to find an outlet for your energy. If I were you I would focus on your financials, because I suspect that while you see progress she still feels the wolf is at the door. People have widely disparate views of financial security. My wife would be clipping coupons and fretting about the thermostat if she was married to Bill Gates. <P>ewwww....now I have to get that picture out of my head.<P>Anyway, find your small pleasures where you can, and keep on track. If it helps you focus, pick a date in the future....8, 9 months out, and say to yourself that you will shock her with an ultimatum on that date. You can reassess by then, but it may help you hang on, the mental picture of turning the tables on her.....making her face the fact that she may actually lose this suddenly excellent mate, and make her realize that for all her talk, that is not what she wants.<P>After about 9 months, I did something along those lines, and it was very gratifying to hear my W suddenly be the one arguing to stay together.<P>(Caution: don't try this at home)<P>So if it helps you hang on, there is a packaged fantasy for yours. Think of your own fantasies to stave off other needs <P>But you have a long way to go before considering anything like that ultimatum. You are still digging yourself out of that decade of neglect.