I don't know what to call this progress or what but we ended up in another relationship talk intiated by her? She seemed different somehow. She didn't sound as absolutely sure about her feelings and intentions. I said to her that you know the entire time we were married she was right there trying to make it work i was on a different planet. But now i'm ready and willing. She said she's still in pain from the past. Make a long story short she ended up saying she will consider giving the marriage one more chance. I asked her later if she really meant it or was she just saying that to shut me up? She said that she doesn't know what to do she's confused. I'm confused. She seems to be loosening up a little do I keep pressing while she seems to be budging a little or do I back all the way off? As long as I'm laid back and plan A'ing she is nonpressured and the status quo. Today after she said she would think about it she allowed me to massage her and she invited me to watch t.v. with her later tonight. By the time i got back from evening church service she was ready for bed soi just kissed her goodnight and let her sleep in peace. Honestly, I abandoned plan A today and swung for the fence. She didn't say yes but she seems to be budging. I don't know what to do from here. Do I try to keep inertia moving or do I let her be and back to plan A? She talked about if she tried again it would be for me not for her. I said that is because everything she is baseing her decision on is my negative past. Anyway she seems to be thinking about reengaging, or trying to reengage. I 'm not sure what to do tommorrow morning, full court press or back off? Sorry for the sports analogies ladies.

help

When you got married, you were supposed to live for your union, not yourselves. It has taken a long time for you to find tha truth, and she's scared of returning to that truth. I would just tell her that when you were faced with the possibility of losing her you realized at last that you were supposed to live for the both of you and not just you. The new deal (which is really what the old deal should have been) is that you both will do that. <P>If she returns to the marriage just for you, there is no balance, and she won't be able to keep it up. Just as your living just for her wouldn't cut it in the long term--both would lead to meltdown. And either or both of you living just for yourselves ... will have you wandering away from each other. The way it's gotta work is that you each live for the union. If she's willing to go for that, she's willing to stay with you. <P>Now might be a good moment for a romantic gesture or four.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Make a long story short she ended up saying she will consider giving the marriage one more chance. I asked her later if she really meant it or was she just saying that to shut me up?</B><P>Impy, that is great! As we said before, you have her confused,....and that is progress from where she was.<P>Don't press for some sort of verbal commitment from her...she isn't ready. In her mind, your improved behavior is linked to her expressions of surrender on the marriage. You have to keep re-establishing the track record of your new behavior.<P>Remember we have talked a few times about continuing to respect her boudaries when she peeks out and says something positive. Be careful. <P>As to all this "should I Plan A or full court press", I'm surprised at the question. Your far enough along to know what works and what doesn't. Your behavior changes have been noted by her and her mind is slowly changing. A "full court press" is not in the playbook....her emotional evolution is a slow process, you can't rush it. Don't try any fancy footwork...keep meeting all the needs she lets you (especially financial support), avoid LBs, exert NO sexual pressure or affection pressure, and initiate NO relationship talks. If she initiates a relationship talk, try to do more listening than talking, avoid trying to pin her down on her feelings, because they are in flux and changing moment to moment. Listen and be supportive. The ball is in her court, stick to your game plan BECAUSE IT IS WORKING. <P>

It seems kinda wierd but it seems as though we are going in circles. Lots of foot massaging and back rubbing with no relationship talks tonight. Could it be she is testing to see if I make the same mistakes I made at the intial stages of plan A? We got along very well today. Tommorrow is her birthday. Stuck on a gift I usally buy her Victoria's Secret Bra and Panties but I 'm thinking maybe something diffrent. I bought her a Coach purse on Mother's Day she really likes Coach hand bags. Any suggestions? I am maintaing a vigilant plan A right now! I think we are making progess. I hope it is authentic. I don't want to make the same mistakes as before.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR>I bought her a Coach purse on Mother's Day she really likes Coach hand bags. Any suggestions? I am maintaing a vigilant plan A right now! I think we are making progess. I hope it is authentic. I don't want to make the same mistakes as before. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Impulsive/dcope,<P>I've been following your story. I only discovered MB a little over a month ago but I've all 26 pages. I admire your patience and tenacity. I have a feeling that your wife will come around. So hang in there!! <P>Looks like you have good taste seeing that you got her a Coach bag for Mother's Day! As for suggestions for her b-day, why don't you get her a gift certificate to a day spa? She can stay there the whole day and they'll pamper her with a facial, a massage, a manicure, and a pedicure. As a mother myself, I would LOVE it. <P>Woodstock <BR><p>[This message has been edited by woodstock (edited May 17, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>It seems kinda wierd but it seems as though we are going in circles. Lots of foot massaging and back rubbing with no relationship talks tonight. Could it be she is testing to see if I make the same mistakes I made at the intial stages of plan A?</B><P>I wouldn't ascribe evil intentions to it. But I would certainly guess she is watching you closely.<P><B>Tommorrow is her birthday. Stuck on a gift I usally buy her Victoria's Secret Bra and Panties but I 'm thinking maybe something diffrent.</B><P>Good thinking. Like the backrubs, those are more gifts for you, I think.<P><B>I bought her a Coach purse on Mother's Day she really likes Coach hand bags. Any suggestions?</B><P>Well...be careful. If you are extravagant it might be an anti-financial support lovebuster.<P>Think of what makes her happy...music? Books? She may get more out of a thoughtful gift than an expensive one.<P>How did you work out the car issue, by the way?<P>Mike<P><BR>

I blew a head gasket in that car, so it's major engine work. I ended taking over the payments on a brand new pickup truck my buddy had. They say God looks out for Babies and Fools, and I haven't seen a baby all day! I paid for here to get a manicure since she mentioned a few days ago she needed one. I might have stepped out of bounds today, but I thought I was being cute, and witty. I passed her a note that said:<BR>I know you might not want intercourse<BR>but I would love to go down on you.<BR>No sex, No strings attached, and no pressure. <P>circle one<P>yes maybe no<P><BR>Well she circled maybe and gave it back to me. Then I dropped her off at work. She smiled when she read it, and I told her I haven't passed a note like that since 7th grade, asking someone to go steady. I probaly should not have but I'm going to be out of town with the boys this weekend and it's been almost 3 weeks without sex and I'm getting antsy. Usually around the 3 week to 4 week range she lightens up and let's me wet my whistle.(Pun Intented) <BR>I 've come to understand that there is a part of me that doesn't want her to become financially independent, because that means I become expendable. She is applying for a job tommorrow that she may very well get. It's at a upscale fine dining rest. There is two parts that bother me. <BR>1.She will not need me anymore financially.<BR>2. She will be exposed to very wealthy men that will try to hit on her and I'm honestly jealous. The fact that financial support is one of the issues I'm struggling with right now,makes her vulnerable to influence from wealthy, new men without the trunk load of baggage I have. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't give this a second thought but under the current circumstances I feel very out of control.

An opportunity to show maturity, self-control, self-assurance, absence of jealousy, and your ability to plan.<P>As long as you are measuring up to everything you should be doing at home, the rich guys will hold no fascination for her. So don't let them dominate your thoughts. <P>But you need to approach the financial aspect ... of course very carefully. If she goes to work outside the home, that income should not be "mad money" that either enhances her lifestyle at your expense, or that she socks away in order to leave. Some of it needs to go into the household kitty. Getting clear on $$$ before she goes and interviews for the job would be a good idea. It might also cause her to cool her passion for working outside the home. <P>This is a job for the Policy of Joint agreement. She shouldn't go do this without your total agreement and support ... and that means some compromises in your favor. If not ... well, you express your disappointment, continue to Plan A, and let her conscience go to work on her. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 17, 2001).]

That's one of the things that concerns me. I'm doing a pretty good job meeting financial obligations right now. She seems appreciative that I'm there meeting those obligations, however she keeps mentioning how uncomfortable she feels depending on me. She wants to be independent, which I guess is positive but I do get the feeling that if she had the money to be gone, she might be.

I don't know when my wife became a sadist, but I know for a fact I am not a masochist. I called the wife at work and said I will put the kids to sleep early, I will clean the house, and hope that when you get home we can open a bottle of wine and spend some time together. She said she was having a birthday drink with some friends and then she would come home so we could spend some time together. Once she got home it was obvious she had a few drinks with friends already. She said before you say anything I want to talk to you. I listened. She said some of the most hurtful, negative things I have ever herard her say since this ordeal began. She insists on beating me over the head with my past, and trying to extinguish my hope with her tounge. I don't know what else to do. I leaving with the boys this weekend, and to be honest I need a break. I need to decide if this course of action if worth it. The more committed I become to save my marriage, and the stronger I get to endure the time and the lack of intimacy it's like she senses it and just applies more pressure to get me to quit. All I wanted to do was share a bottle of wine and have pleasant conversation, she saw it as a opportunity to bash me and it hurts. I can't do one thing about the past. I can't change one thing about the past, but i can live for today and tommorrow. She said that I just don't get it. I fuucckked her over, and scarred her emotionally, and mentally for life. She said i won't givve up on the marriage because i'm selfish and always have to have my way. She said so many hurtful things my stomach is hurting this morning. I don't know how much more I can endure. Plan A while you have a withdrawn spouse is one thing but plan A while you endure insults and verbal daggers is alot more difficult.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She said she was having a birthday drink with some friends and then she would come home so we could spend some time together. Once she got home it was obvious she had a few drinks with friends already.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Still think there's no one poisoning her mind? OK, so that person (or persons) exists. It gives meaning to the beatings you're taking. They're not coming only from her, and they're not happening for no reason. They are a sign of her being in conflict. They are battles, not mere punishment. They are opportunities for you to fight for your marriage -- to fight against what she's hearing from the other(s) (or, even worse, <I>feeling</I> for the other[s]). <P>Recognize, though, that if you continue to Plan A against something that remains hidden, you are fighting a losing battle. It might be time to pick up <B><I>Surviving An Affair</I></B>. <P>Look at this one too: <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963230972/ref=sim_books/103-0917189-2739804" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963230972/ref=sim_books/103-0917189-2739804</A> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 18, 2001).]

This is getting weirder by the minute. First she let's me sleep in the bed then this morning she says let's masturbate together. This sex thing is getting real weird. She says that she has no sexual drive, but once she get's aroused it's unleashed. She said she doesn't know why she is forcing her self to block me out. She says she has to force herself not to want me. She's doing a good job at it. She is going through so much inner turmoil, it's killing me because she won't let me in. She says I'm expecting another chance when I was given four chances, and I have'nt had to forgive her for even one betrayal of trust. I'm conflicted right now. I'm going to Toronto for the weekend with the boys and find myself. Dig in guys and help me put what is happening in perspective. Are we making progress? Still? I can't tell anymore.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>This is getting weirder by the minute.</B><P>Not wierder imps, better. These are good things that are happening.<P><B> She says that she has no sexual drive, but once she get's aroused it's unleashed. </B><P>Guess what? A woman with no sexual drive does not suggest masturbating together! Sexual activity is the last thing on such a woman's mind. She does have a sexual drive and a healthy one at that, but she is denying it because of the situation and the conflicts in herself. This is normal and natural.<P><B>She said she doesn't know why she is forcing her self to block me out. </B><P>This one I think I can clarify for her. She is forcing herself ot block you out because of the past. It is no conincidence that what you did in the past is such a strong factor in her denying you now. You hurt her many times over, and she gave you many chances to reform, and with each cahnce you hurt her some more. She is afraid that letting you in again will only lead to more hurt. This is a self protection measure and one that is important to her and every human being. If someone hits you then says he is sorry and you give him another chance and he hits you again, and apologizes again and asks for another chance again, your instinct will say no out of healthy need to protect yourself. It isa correct and appropriate defense mechanism that humans use to protect themselves and stay away from people and situation that they have learned will cause them pain. Also, her sense of justice and fairness has been offended - she has tried so hard in the past and gotten no where from you, why should she now give you the opportunity to get the same solution that she had tried so hard to get from you and did not. Of course she is in conflict. Ultimately she wants to be happy an lead a contented comfortable life with a man who loves her and will cherish and protect her. But history has shown that you are not that man. You have shown by your past actions that you are a danger to her. So while she wants to give you another chance, wants to believe that your changes are permanent and the two of you can work it out and have a great marriage and a great life together, all her memories of the way thigns have been for so long keeps coming back to tell her that that will not happen, and that you will betray her and hurt her again. And her friends no doubt are telling her the same thing. "You're a fool for thinking of giving him another chance after all he has done to you." "A leopard does not change its spots so easily. He is just trying a ploy to get you bcak and then he will go back to his old ways and then where will you be?". You can of course blame her friends for this, but the truth is that you have done this yourself. Your past, your repeated actions of hurting her has given them (and her)the feeling that you are only going to hurt her again as you track indicates. Her friends are trying to protect her. Her Taker is trying is to protect her. This is her Protective Self stepping up to the bat and saying no, do not believe him. But she also senses that people can change permanently and maybe you have and she will be giving up a really good chance to get the life she has always wanted. So, yes she is conflicted and this is good and healthy. Do you realise that she has gone from a state of withdrawal to a state of conflict and it has been aresult of the changes in you and your loving her the way you have. <P><B>I'm conflicted right now. </B><P>I am sorry, impy, but you are not allowed to be conflicted. These are good signs your wife is showing you. She is being honest with you and actually discussing the situation. You say that she is not letting you in, but she is, by sharing all this stuff with you. You are not allowed to go into conflict. Remember how much you love her - reinforce your commitment to her and your marriage. It is not easy but you must stick with it. You must continue to Plan A, continue to love her. She needs it now more than you think - she has outside forces telling her to give up on you, she must see you as strong and loving, and this is your chance to show her that your love is the real deal. It is going to survive this and you are going to keep on loving her, keep on being consistent. You are not going to break and run because things are getting tough. You are here and you love her. <P>As to whether you are making progress? Well, sheesh, I'd like to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 to make you see just how much progress you are making. Let me itemise it for you:<BR>1. She is no longer talking only of divorce<BR>2. She is confused about whether to stay or go, where before she was convinced she wanted to go<BR>3. She is opening up to you, actually sharing her conflict with you, telling you how she is hurting<BR>4. She is being honest with you about how much you hurt her in the past. A person in withdrawal does not bother with this. These are fighting words and that means that there is something worth fighting for.<BR>5. She is making suggestions as to ways you two can share experiences, massages, TV, sexual activites, cuddling<P>Adn many more, that I probably cannot state properly. Look, what you need to do now, is be firm in your resolve to stick with this. That is what she needs from you. You cannot bail under any circumstances. You need to keep Plan A. You need to accept when she tells you teh negative thigns about your behaviour in the past. That hurt is your punishment for how you behaved. Her sense of justice needs to tell you these things and not let you feel like you are gonna succeed without some punishment for what you have done to her. Have you read the four rules of marriage - care, protection, honesty and time. I would suggest that you reinforce you commitment to her with a letter - nothing long or effusive. But state those four promises for her. Something along the lines of :<P>I love you. I am sorry I hurt you in the past. I know my behaviour was unforgivable and I will never stop regretting that I was so blind and selfish for so long. I have changed and I want to spend the rest of my life making up to you for the thigns I did. I want to give you the life and the love that you deserve. I want to spend the rest of my life loving you, cherishing you, protecting you, supporting you, being honest with you and trying to be the type of husband you deserved all along.<P>Do not say anything about 'if you will give me another chance'. You are stating only your regret about teh past, and how you want to love her. This is a no pressure letter, and 'if you will give me another chance' puts pressure on her and sends the ball in her court. You just want to let her know that your intentions are good adn you recognize admit and are sorry for your previous failings. Keep Plan Aing and keep praying. I think this is a good idea, but heed the advice of the others here, and your own instincts. Do not pressure but do not give up. Let her know that your love is constant and you are in this for the long haul. And take heart - things are going great and you are making excellent progress. Enjoy your trip with your boys, bu tmake sure to keep in touch with the w by phone everyday in a loving supportive manner - no pressure.<P>All the best<BR>Leanna

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She says I'm expecting another chance when I was given four chances, and I have'nt had to forgive her for even one betrayal of trust.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One of the first things John Gottman tells women is to lower their expectations. Many women expect the fairy tale, not a real husband with real faults. Sooner or later, that makes them susceptible to affairs.<P>Although it's well established that you have done some bad things in the past, right now this "four chances" talk is hogwash. She is constructing a rationalization because she believes there is something better in her life. You have the circumstantial proof of this all around you -- <I><B>there is at the very least an emotional attachment to someone else!</I></B>. If that were not the case, you would be making a lot more rapid headway. You lack a smoking gun ... only because you either refuse to see it, or fear to look for it. <P>So the bottom line is that there is a betrayal of trust she needs forgiveness for ... after she admits it. Even assuming I'm wrong and there is no EA or PA, she is seeking psychological comfort from someone other than a trained therapist or family member. For that matter, so are you ... the difference here is that our postings are out in the open, and we're all trying to <I><B>save</I></B> your marriage, not trying to convince you of reasons to pull it apart.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B> All I wanted to do was share a bottle of wine and have pleasant conversation, she saw it as a opportunity to bash me and it hurts.</B><P>Well....I didn't read it that way, I read it as you wanted to get laid, and I'm sure she did, especially after your note the night before.<P>Impy, you have to remove the sexual pressure, it is the one clear trigger that makes her reactive negatively, and that is a setback for both of you. You crossed the boundary again and she got drunk and snarled at you. <P>You can't proposition her. You have to let her come to you on sex. This issue is like a bear trap in the middle of the room, and every few weeks you feel compelled to go stomp your foot on it. Learn from your mistakes!<P>She is coming around but she is fighting giving up her old negative feelings. You have to understand that. As far as the nasty remarks...well, sometimes whe people are hurtbysomeone they have to lash back before they feel the score is even and the relationship can move on. I think that mywife really unburdening on me helped us out, even though it hurt to hear it. Try to think of some of the nastiness as a sign that you are getting to the real issues, and she is being honest with you.<P>Another thought: do you think your W respects you? I wondered that about my W, and tried to work on it by working on the atttributes that I know she does respect in people, and trying tobe stronger and less needy in some ways. Just a thought.<P>Mike <P>

Well I managed to do a little love busting while in Toronto this weekend. I called the house at 7:00 am Sat after my son's game and no answer. So I called a couple more times. Finally I left a message like " I don't know where you are, or who your with but I was just calling to inform you about your son's game. When I finally talked to her she said that the message was rude and uncalled for. That she was out jogging or something. Anyway, whe n I talked to her again she made it a point to say tell the boys I miss them. Of course I fell right in the trap. Why don't you ever say you miss me??? She said I knew you were going to say that. I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. I'm getting frustrated because my expectations are getting higher for some reason, and I getting even more frustrated about our sex situation, but I keep forgetting that I shouldn't have any expectations in that department. I just want to focus on our finances right now. I don't even want to think about our marriage right now. I'm feeling pretty pessimistic right now and I don't see progress, so I'm getting discouraged. Maybe this discouragement is good if it lowers my expectations right?

OK here are my priorities. God, Kids, Business. I'm at a point where I really don't want to focus on the marriage at all. I don't want to be accomodating, I don't want to bend over backwards being mice, because the nicer I am the ruder she becomes. The nicer I am the more she feels compelled to push me away. I'm not going to love bust but I'm not going to focus on the marriage anymore at all. I hope it does not fall apart even the more but I really don't have any other alternatives. I'm going to become very selfism After my business I will focus on me. The guilt of the position I put my marriage in makes me forake my feelings, but I can't continue on the pat I'm on. My wife goes out of her way to act as though she is not married. I go out of my way to act as though I am married. The pain is tremendous. Please people help me with ways to maintain focus on my priorties and relinguish the focus I've placed on my marriage.

Detect the affair. Or determine conclusively that none exists. Don't keep denying the possibility in the face of blatant signs.<P>You may fear that if you find an affair, the marriage will be over. Well, doesn't that seem to be in the cards anyway? But if you find it, you may be able to stop it--and save your marriage.<P>You may fear that you won't be able to control yourself if you find out about an affair. Such thoughts are also <I>red herrings</I>. You have had a long time to think about this ... you're not going to fly off the handle and pull an <B>O.J.</B>. <P>You may fear that the affair will turn out to be <I>lesbian</I>. It <I>does</I> happen to men, and they <I>do</I> get over it. From one point of view, if you held her interest all these years despite a lurking same-sex attraction, you have nothing to be ashamed of. And if she's changed her orientation, then clearly she's simply unable to come to terms with the traits that make men <I>men</I> (although you might have been a bit over the top on some of them). <P>You may fear <I>her</I> reaction to getting caught. Well, if she's cheating on you, she is the wrong person for you to have any sympathy for in that department. <P>Get thee to <B><I>Jake Gittes</I></B>!<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 21, 2001).]

Sis, I don't think he is having a affair. Being totally honest with you I don't care if she is having a affair right now. I'm going forward with my relationship with my God, and my children. She could very well be involved in a affair. What can I do about it. Unless I want to spend time obssessing and investigating which I have no desire to do an affair is out of my control. The bottom line is she does not want to be married right now. No matter how much I changed, no matter how much I want to be happily married to this woman there is nothing I can do about it at this time. What this time and situation has taught me is how to nuture and value a relationship. I never knew there was a such thing as marital skills. I made a ton of mistakes. I also learned a ton and have grown a ton. I fmy wife does not have the ability to accept my love, and embark on a journey through the future with me, all I can do is keep being a great father, and person and sooner or later I will have a opportunity to be extremely happy with someone. Do I want that person to be my wife? ABSOLUTELY. Is this a easy thing to say or even think about? Hell no. However i see myself in a position where I can't keep beating my head up against the wall. I have to accept my situation. I put myself here. So if it's easier for you to concentrate on her having a affair, fine you think about it where I'm at right now I can't afford the luxury of focusing on something I can't prove or change.