Well she wanted to talk tonight to tell me that she wants to move out.

Is it normal to be somewhat numb at this point? There is really nothing I can do to keep her from leaving. She says that she is looking for work so she does not have to depend on me for support. I'm trying the best I can to just be strong and not breakdown at this point. I told her that I didn't want her to leave and I didn't want to give up on my family, but she says she just is not happy living together under the current circumstances. Well considering the fact that I have'nt had the most tame taker in the world I can't say I blame her. She says she doesn't want to try anymore. She has made up her mind and will not turn back. She said that for the last 3 months I have not listened to her or tried to understand her feelings. I said I listened and understood perfectly. I may not want to accept it but I certainly understood. I feel like I put forth a great, galliant effort but the odds were insurmountable. I did my best. I'm a better person, with a relationship closer to God then I've ever been in my entire life. So in the grand scheme of things I'm better off then I was when this saga first began. I refuse to feel sorry for myself or allow myself to become depressed because I've grown to understand that's counterproductive. I have had a difficult time controlling my emotions over the last few months, but I refuse to breakdown. Where do I go from here? I'm not a quitter. I can't force her to love or trust me but I can continue to pray that God softens her heart, and saves my marriage because I've grasped the reality that it's beyond my control.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I can't afford the luxury of focusing on something I can't prove or change.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Harley says an affair must be outed. Until then, Plan A does not have good traction. One of the major problems is that you will appear weak, self-deluding or stupid if you let an affair go undetected. In their heart of hearts, someone who will cheat on you wants you to know they're doing it (whether boastfully or guiltily). And once you do, you're in a better position to fight the influence of the OP. <P>If she wants to move out, look into that controlled separation book. And don't make it easy on her. Your kids don't deserve what she's doing. Nor do you.

I don't have any reason to believe there is a affair. I've done all I can do! This is going to absolutely destroy my boys. I can't believe she won't try one last time. I hear stories of people overcoming alot more challenging situations then this and keeping there marriages together. When I read posts about men that are ignoring there wives needs i just want to slap the guy. I can't imagine having a person that looks forward to my affection. I'm dying a slow painful death but I guess I did it to myself. I would do anything to save my marriage. Life is short. I can recover from this somehow. I don't know how but I will survive.

Imp, I told you a month ago that your W was going to leave, so hopefully you did what I suggested and built up a good track record of the "new impulsive" .<P>Now, the day she leaves, you hand her your Plan B letter. Maybe leave out references to an affair, as you haven't been able to confirm one (although I think there IS one). But otherwise, tell her you love her, acknowledge your contributions to the state of the marriage, state your dreams for a new and better marriage, and indicate that you want no contact with her until she is ready to start taking steps in that direction.<P>Give her two-three months of a flawless Plan B, and two things will happen: 1. She'll come to realize and admit how good a guy you really are, and will start wondering if perhaps she made a mistake in leaving; 2. You'll come to realize how full of problems she is, and will start wondering if perhaps you made a mistake in wanting to keep her...<P>AGG<P>

It takes a lot to kill the love of and INFJ female. And I do mean a lot. Even when the love is gone and INFJ will still care – but there will be no getting through the armour. At some point an INFJ unplugs from a relationship when the pain of that relationship has been too great – and at that point there will be little to nothing that you can do if the trust has been broken too many times. INFJ’s want to forgive – and eventually do forgive –but the forgiveness in case like this means she will care about you and want to see you happy in your own life – but she will most likely not let you back into hers. She will most likely be far too fearful of the past to let you back in.<P>As an ESTP, this will be hard for you to accept because for you the past is the past. It is over – and you most likely will not want to think about tomorrow much. For you there is only today, and today you want her back and you want to make everything all right – right now.<P>But for her – if she is an INFJ – The past will equal the future to her. And she will especially feel this way if she has had to live with too much pain, neglect, abuse, or infidelity. So for an INFJ, when they finally say it is over – it usually is over. At that point they have usually gone emotionally to the point of no return. This is often difficult for other types to understand because most other types start to back out of a difficult relationship sooner than an INFJ – but an INFJ will hold faith that things can work out until they finally reach the breaking point and just can’t take it anymore.<P>Most likely she is not having an affair. She may just be trying to let you know that she is serious about moving on.<P>If you love her, the best thing to do may just be to resolve yourself to the way things look likely to turn out. As my mom always said “You’ve made your bed.”<P><BR>

Impy, I'm traveling, so I'm just checking in for a moment.<P>I'm sorry your W is taking this route. You are right in noting that your taker has been rearing his head lately. Stop that immediately.<P>Even if she does temporarily move out, if you handle this right, you could turn it all around. She probably feels trapped....so lt her out and let her make a free will decision. I think you can tell that she is going through some rethinking about your rellationship...noticing your changes, trying to decide where she wants to be. Maybe this is a necessary step in btreaking her wall down.<P>I wouldn't encourage or stop her from moving out, but I would not let her put things on a "decision' basis....try to keep it on a "process" basis. Like "if you want to move out to clear your head, I won't stop you."<P>And, really, Imp, you have to murder your taker right now, and stop with the constant guilt shots, like the phone message and subsequent call. You are triggering her fight/flight reaction.<P>I've been pretty quiet on this front, but for your own sanity it might be good to know what you are facing vis-a-vis an affair. Cell phone records and emails are good places to start.<P>Clinging so tight right now and laying the guilt on is going to feed her flight reaction. You need to be strong.<P>Mike

Louise I find it extremely interesting that you have come into this thread and on your very first post and hit the nail right on the head. You described exactly where my wife is right now. I'm not very optimistic about the probability of a immaculate reconcilliation however, I'm not ready to quit. She made a very interesting statement. She said we can't live like this forever. She then asked me what were my intentions. I told her that I had not told her but my plan was to give this process until Sept. 1st. She wanted to know why Sept.1st. I told her that was 6 months. I told her that after that point if she still didn't want to give the marriage a try I would leave voluntarily and get on with my life. She made a statement to the arbitrary nature of the Sept. date and then she seemed to settle in. I don't think she is leaving immediately. She is still mentioning bills that I/we need to pay. The place she says she is considering moving to is a cottage about 40 miles south of where we live now. She said that she doesn't have a job, or transportation yet. So the move is not immediate. I think the moving out talk was a clear indication of her state of mind, but not of her immediate plans. The talk was precipitated by a guilt flair up by me also, so she is very frustrated. It shocked me because up until this point she was adament about not moving again. I find it interesting that she would consider moving so far away. I think my taker has been slapping her with guilt, and making ugly faces at her and it overshadowing the positive changes I've made. She is saying that yeah you have made positive changes but "to little to late". What are my chances of perfecting a taker free plan A as long as we have to still live together? I think by placing a time frame promise to move on has put me into a corner. Well the appetite is gone again and I feel like I did during the first week in Feb. The sum total of my optimism lays in the fact that she still talks alot about how she feels. All of her decisions are based on emotion. You people may not believe it but God can turn this impossible looking situation around. I will just take one day at a time. I'm starting to see deeper and deeper into how my taker is impacting her. AGG, SIS I don't know how to respond to you guys belief that there is a affair lurking here. I don't think so. She has a female friend that she has been spending alot of time with. She is single and a partier. She also has some serious anxiety, and childhood abuse issues. I think that the fact that they have those abuse issues in common brings them together. I think my wife admires her freedom and carefree lifestyle. I think my wife has reached a saturation point of pain in her mind and can't consider going backwards as she says. I think the fact that she doesn't have any neutral parties that she respects or trust telling her that marriage is important give it another try works against me. She says that she gave it the last try I'm asking for a year ago. I remember the fourth of July weekend last year. For what ever reason I didn't respond then. I did make a pretty ugly bed for myself. If she stays am I spitting in the wind to still try plan A? I get the suspicion that she is jockeying to get into the finacial position to be independent and confident her her abilities support herself. Sh eis a independent survivior, evidenced by her sticking by me all the time I was stupid. What do I do now???????????

Do I stand and fight or ????

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She has a female friend that she has been spending a lot of time with. She is single and a partier. She also has some serious anxiety, and childhood abuse issues.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have said this before. Perhaps not so clearly. But shame on all of us for not seeing it for what it is, and telling you what you've gotta do about it!<P>OK, let's say you just put your finger on it. Assuming it's not an affair, it's just this friend's influence ... well, you should still demand that W stop seeing her and stop communicating with her! You have yet to put your foot down and make that demand. You need to catalogue the friend's bad influence ... not just things that are bad in and of themselves, but things that take away from the family, like the loss of her presence and her time. Things that would be a problem if, say, she were too committed to "Meals On Wheels". <P>If you feel like telling the truth, you can tell her that she has been allowing her friend to destroy the second most important thing in her life: her marriage; and by extension she will destroy the most important thing in her life: her children. If you want, you can tell her that until she moves out, you will continue with your changes, and you will give her space--and time to make the decision to dump the friend (although you make it clear that you want that ASAP). <P>Plan B is not yet timely ... you haven't demanded a disconnection from the friend. And she hasn't been put to that choice: you or her. If you <B><I>do</I></B> put her to that choice, in the best case you immediately win. In the worst case, she walks, and never even develops an awareness that her friend really did destroy your marriage. But <I><B>you</I></B> will have that awareness, because it will be obvious to you that she will not choose someone she vowed "till death do us part" over a screwed-up friend. <P>Regardless of her "feelings", she has children and a loving husband (who, regardless of his past, stands ready now to come closer than most to living up to his vows). In the most likely middle case, you get some more time to Plan A. And it either works, or there is a move-out and a shift to Plan B. Which either works, or ...<P>The example you present to your children is now very important. If you tolerate her ongoing behavior, that is not helpful to the kids. The old ways weren't a good example either, but it looks like you're the one who woke up first. You can take pride in that. Because <I><B>she</B></I> should have done a better job of influencing you and setting an example.<P>I'm not saying that you should cast aside all the guilt you feel over this situation ... there is a lot of it that can be laid at your feet. But in order to do what you've gotta do, you need to clearly recognize her part in this. Once you do, then you can be an effective advocate for your marriage and for your kids and for yourself. And she will be isolated into her selfish little corner. If she wants to remain there, you will be the one to decide whether the door remains open for her to return. But <I><B>you</B></I> will have taken a final stand for your marriage. And stick to it, regardless of forces that will push you to do otherwise. <P><BR>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 22, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 22, 2001).]

Aahh Sis, I'm not exactly in the position to pass out ultimatums. I would love to tell her not to deal with this friend but she has made it clear she doesn't consider herself married so I really don't have in control or serious input into her life or associations. I can't really say that this friend destroyed my marriage, I betrayed the trust and I neglected her needs while we were struggling finacially. The friend at this point is just there. She is there because she is just as screwed up but looks like she is in a better position because she unconnected. I can't blame the friend. Today she seems very nice like nothing happened so I guess it's just a flawless Plan A with no love busting. One of the major love buster in our marriage was that she never had friends. This was her choice because she was so plugged into our marriage she didn't feel it was necassary to have friends. Once I went into depression and failed to provide companionship and conversation she always complained about no friends. So this friend is important to her at this point because she represents the friend she wanted all throught the marriage. She knows I don't approve of the friend but she relishes the fact that I don't have the control to say Stay away from her.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Louise_INFJ:<BR><B>It takes a lot to kill the love of and INFJ female. And I do mean a lot. Even when the love is gone and INFJ will still care – but there will be no getting through the armour. At some point an INFJ unplugs from a relationship when the pain of that relationship has been too great – and at that point there will be little to nothing that you can do if the trust has been broken too many times. INFJ’s want to forgive – and eventually do forgive –but the forgiveness in case like this means she will care about you and want to see you happy in your own life – but she will most likely not let you back into hers. She will most likely be far too fearful of the past to let you back in.</B><P><sigh> Your message made me sad, and in many ways summed up my INFJ W. She refers to her block as a "waist-high stone wall". She is very caring, attentive, dutiful...but there is a line there that I can't seem to punch through. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Aahh Sis, I'm not exactly in the position to pass out ultimatums. ... She knows I don't approve of the friend but she relishes the fact that I don't have the control to say Stay away from her.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you're not in the position to pass out ultimatums. But you are in a position to carefully explain what divorce will do to your children. And you are in a position to explain that you believe her friend is destroying her marriage. And you are in a position to make it known in no uncertain terms that it must stop. In Plan A, the Betrayed Spouse does not make an ultimatum of the desire that the OP be unceremoniously excised from the Wayward Spouse's life. If Wayward Spouse says no, Plan A continues regardless. Until Plan A can no longer be followed. The goal is not to coerce immediate agreement and cooperation by virtue of an ultimatum. The goal is to firmly stake out the untenability of inhabiting two divergent lives. The WS must then work out on their own which way to move initially, or whether to try to straddle in the face of certain knowledge that the time for straddling is limited (and knowing that at some point, the ultimate choice may be removed from their hands).<P>It's not that she can't have friends. She just shouldn't have this friend, or friends of the same kind. There are people around who would be upstanding friends who wouldn't contribute to your marital misery. <P>No, don't attempt to command her to stay away. Just plant the seed that her relationship with this woman is a large part of why your marriage is crumbling. She will see everything the woman says or does in a subtly different light. And in time, you stand a good chance of winning.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 22, 2001).]

I am an INFJ as well. What Louise said is VERY true of INFJ's. It does take a lot to kill our love and it is a strength that we have. It is not impossible to get through the walls that arise after years of neglect and abuse but it will take a long time and it will be over the seasons of time that the relationship will grow and be restored as well as achieve greater intimacy. Meeting the INFJ's needs (just like meeting anyone's needs) are the best approach but again as has been said in this thread it needs to be done in such a way that it can be maintained. <P>IMP has grown a lot and she will wish growth for him and happiness. He can commit to the relationship and outside of an affair I would guess she will stay in the marriage unless IMP regresses or she feels forced into something. Unless his wife feels very pressured she'll be very happy for his happiness (growth) but will not be able to encourage him with committment on her end. Such has been the story and it has not suprised me. She will be pleasant and caring many times, but whenever he is looking for emotional support or security in the relationship, well she'll feel she cannot promise this or encourage it. One thing I believe works in IMP's best interest is their history together. She will be hard to let go of that and in a way feel comfortable with it even if she would never admit it to him.<P>Time is the best restorer of a relationship like this.<P>Holding the current position acquiring time will work toward restoration of the future. Restoration is a process. IMP, I was glad to see that you realized trying to control the situation by going in with an iron fist wasn't going to work.<P>Find the measure that you can maintain and be at peace with yourself. Over time you'll both be building and it'll restore a level of comfort that will grow into intimacy. May be a long haul though.<P>Hang tight.<P>HM<P><BR>[

Hmm. Lot going on here. You know, impulsive, you may have taken some of the pressure off your wife by telling her about your September 1 "deadline". Of course, come September, you may need to explain that this was merely your <I>plan</I>, and plans can change...<P>impulsive, your wife's ideas regarding her prospective move are quite interesting. You zeroed in on how far away she was talking about moving, but frankly, the whole thing sounds like a pipedream. If your wife was <I>really</I> planning a move, I wonder whether she would be looking at things more realistically. First, find a way to make an independent living, then find a place to live within commuting distance to her workplace, etc. Instead, it appears that she is fantasizing.<P>At this point, I think your wife is still just airing her feelings. I wouldn't view this as a setback, and I think your approach needs to be the same as it has been. You need to find a way to sustain yourself, by taking care of your own needs (or as many as you can) and looking for opportunities to meet your wife's needs. Get used to the idea that your wife is going to do what she is going to do, and learn to find strength in the knowledge that your wife's feelings and actions do not threaten your own self, however much hurt you experience.<P>I don't see anything wrong with reiterating your concern about the negative influence your wife's friend is having on her, but I really doubt that this relationship should be viewed as having the same type of dynamics as an affair, and treating it as such is not likely to be helpful, in my opinion.<BR>

The last couple days have been very pleasant around here. I'm working hard to meet financial obligations, and we are getting along very well. I don't have any expectations as far as her meeting any needs I have, and I just meet the needs she allow me to. I really appreciate everyone that took the time to respond to this thread. I am abundantly optimistic right now because feel a certain measure of peace and calm right now. She is only working 1 day per week and I am responsible for meeting the bills. She feels uncomfortable with this and is working feverishly to become independant. I growing to understand that plan A can be successful if I don't allow myself to be hypersensitive to her response and don't allow myself to be percevied as needy and moopy. I think that my demeanor was draining her because she felt guilt for not being able to meet my needs. I was pushing subtly for SF and she felt pressure. When I didn't get the responses I wanted I acted frustrated which frustrated her and caused her fight/flight response. So how I keep getting lulled into a sense of OK let me check her temperature and see if she will meet my needs now. Everytime i do that I get a resounding negative response that sets me back mentally and emotionally.

Pleasant = Withdrawal. Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! Trap! <P>You need to keep her in conflict ... she's withdrawn again. That doesn't mean you let your Taker out. But if she's not struggling against you, she's not struggling with herself. You needn't ask for verbal recommitment to the marriage, or anything else "over the top", but look for tangible signs of same that are missing or weak, etc. Talk with her about them. If there is a similarly-aged couple at church, try to arrange that the four of you go out together. <P>Maybe it's time to take an inventory of where your <I>Plan A</I> might be falling short. If she has complained about having no friends, and consequently has begun to associate with a bad friend, you need to look at your failure to provide alternatives. Has your Plan A included providing opportunities for friendship? How can you ask her to drop <B><I>Ms. Bad Influence</I></B> if there won't be anyone else around? If she rejects the opportunity to meet new friends, you will have her in conflict on that issue ... and engaged. <P>Remember, Plan A is about being what you should be, not about being servile or a yes man. If being what you should be is blocked by her obsolete mental image of you, then it is your responsibility to remold that image. You shouldn't expect that the remolding will occur without angst on both sides.<P>What else are you missing? You need to realize that your marriage needs to go back through the badlands in order to get to where it needs to be. It won't survive by just rocking along pleasantly. That rocking would be a gentle wind-down from her perspective (meanwhile, you'll be as agonized as ever, if not more so). <P>There has been a lot said about relationship pressure, your need for SF, etc. That's not what I'm talking about here. I think you've been in the penalty box long enough to show your wife you're serious. Maybe not long enough to satisfy her that she should recommit. But you need to start asking for the things that are needed in order to make the marriage workable in the long-term--so that nothing is in the way of recommitment. Not things that are <B>for you</B>, but things that are <B>for the marriage</B>. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited May 23, 2001).]

To “put your foot down and make that demand,” would be a huge and terrible mistake. That will only push her away. The friend is giving her emotional support that she has good reason to feel she cannot find with you. <P>And you will score “major points” by owning up to this. You have to take full responsibility for any pain YOU have caused her. And although you do not need to take responsibility for her current feeling or her actions, you do need to acknowledge that you have not been there for her in the past and that you have, and are still, causing her a great deal of pain. The friend is not causing the problem – she is a result of the problem – which – said kindly – was your behavior which is old new to you – but she will be holing that past pain close to her heart to protect her from any future pain.<P>If you wish to win her heart again, you will need to be prepared for a long haul – far longer than you may be prepare to invest in this. It will take more than a few months of “change” to permit her to breath easy around you again for starters. <P>Two things I would recommend to help you in your own goals for relating better to your wife and finding some peace in your current situation. Do what you wish with the information. I am recommending two completely different routes, and both will give good results.<P>One can be found at <A HREF="http://www.holographic.org/." TARGET=_blank>http://www.holographic.org/.</A> It will look like insane mumbo jumbo at first, but give it a serious look. I know a great many people who have used this method to help them understand and remove the source of certain impulses, for example your depression, or your repeat infidelity. Consider giving one session at this a go before you write it off completely.<P>The other is a book found at <A HREF="http://www.watchtower.org/publications/publications_available.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.watchtower.org/publications/publications_available.htm</A> called “The Secret of Family Happiness”. A friend gave me this book once and it did help. Whatever your thoughts on the group that wrote this book, the good and practical suggestions there do work and have helped mend many a marriage.<P>If you keep your wife in conflict, as someone with the same nature, I can assure you that you will at this point push her further away, possibly for good. Remember that this situation was created out of conflict. What she will want, what she craves is some security, some peace in her life, something good that she can count on. She will need a peace that she most likely has not felt for a long time, if ever. For an INFJ conflict slowly kills them. Chances are that what she is doing, she will be doing on some level to save her life in her own mind.<P>This relationship with her party friend will fizzle out in it’s own time. Your wife’s friend will move on – or eventually hurt your wife and your wife will pull back. Remember that what your wife wants is peace in her heart. She wants to feel safe. She will be spending this time with her friend as a way to momentarily forget. <P>I suppose that the best thing I can tell you about an INFJ female is that they are very loyal, almost to a fault, and that if you are able to find a way (considering your own nature) to provide her with a safe, secure, and peaceful environment, she may come around. But this will take time . . . possibly more than a year or two. But when the floodgates do open again – you could very well drown in the affection she will show you for your wait.<P>Another book you might consider to help you through this time is Emotional Intelligence.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553375067/o/qid=990661153/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7518235-9792757" TARGET=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553375067/o/qid=990661153/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/104-7518235-9792757</A> <BR>I hope this helps. From someone who has been through hell and back. She won’t want to give up. But at this point she will feel that she has no other choice. Keep working on yourself and you have a chance that she may come around.<BR>And if she doesn’t what do you gain? You’ll be a better father, a better friend, and you’ll have something on which to build a better future.<P>I know all of this talk sounds like fluff to an ESTP. But trust me. Relax. If you just relax and focus on something else like your children, or your work, or your own “growth” you will be surprised at how things may improve.<BR>

Wow Louise. You seem to have her down to a tee. I don't think conflict is good right now. Conflict drives my wife away. Conflict and frustrations drains her battery so fast it's scary. She has always felt like she could not say what she really wanted to say because she was scared of my reaction. She always felt like it was easier to go along with me even if she didn't want to because the reprecussions were worse then the negative feeling she would have in her stomach for not following her heart or mind. Everything I say and do is under a microscope right now. If she says something that I don't agree with I have to be careful of my response because she would always say that if she don't agree with me I act different. Tonight she said to me that "OOH just so you know what's going on Ms. Bad Influence will be spending the night one day next week because I have to get up early and take her to the airport". "if I don't let her spend the night she will miss her flight". I didn't say anything for a while. I then said Only one night right? She said you have a problem with this don't you? I said I would have rather you asked me was I ok with it before you told her it was OK, and now your just filling me in on the details of your unilateral decision. The other thing I don't like about it is that our situation is tenious enough. Do we really need outsiders staying with us under these circumstances. I'm am going to feel like a jerk. My wife is in my bed sleeping with her friend while I'm out on the couch. Just doesn't look or sound right let alone feel right. I said but I don't want to fight about it I just want get along. SO i left with the boys and went to a arcade. I invited her earlier and of course she said no thank you but that's fine. I understand that if I was there for her like I should have been she would not be attached to this friend. I accept full responsibility for the pain and damage I've caused. I'm not in any rush to throw in the towel. As long as ther is no conflict and we get along like today. Pleasant conversation and no pressure. I can deal with this. The hard part comes when I try to let my taker out and I get slapped with rejection. I can wait it out as long as i don't expect anything. Once I let my taker out I don't have a chance because then I put her under a microscope and she hates it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louise_INFJ:<BR><B>To “put your foot down and make that demand,” would be a huge and terrible mistake. That will only push her away. The friend is giving her emotional support that she has good reason to feel she cannot find with you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Louise, your stuff is great. There's a lot to agree with there. <I><B>dcope/impulsive</I></B> has redeemed himself to "decent human being" status in his wife's eyes already. <P>She now thinks she's just not in love with him, and she wants to move on. She needs to be wooed all over again. Stolid perfection ... makes him just a stolidly pefect guy she doesn't want. Wanting to get into her pants while she is in an unwooed state ... makes him just another guy who wants to get into her pants ... and takes him back out of the good guy category.<P>A guy who hasn't crossed the woo gap doesn't have the right to tell her who she should and shouldn't associate with.<P>But what about him simply airing the nature and extent of his objections to her? Hell, <B><I>Ms. Bad Influence</I></B> is starting to invade his home! <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you wish to win her heart again, you will need to be prepared for a long haul – far longer than you may be prepare to invest in this. It will take more than a few months of “change” to permit her to breath easy around you again for starters.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I would agree ... except she's not giving him a long haul. He has a ticking clock he's running against, so he doesn't have time to make his changes and wait for her paradigms to shift. He needs to not only make the changes, but undertake the risky and painful process of cajoling the paradigm shifts. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If you keep your wife in conflict, as someone with the same nature, I can assure you that you will at this point push her further away, possibly for good. For an INFJ conflict slowly kills them. Chances are that what she is doing, she will be doing on some level to save her life in her own mind.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not saying there should be a constant simmering feud. That would be drawing her into conflict and leaving her there. That's enough to wear out anyone. I mean just presenting regular challenges to her ways of thinking about <B><I>dcope/impulsive</I></B> ... challenges beyond the evidence before her own eyes. If she likes to be safe and secure, she also needs to hear about how she is being made safe and secure--regularly and repeatedly. Evidence in court ... just sits there, meaningless to the jury ... unless and until an attorney uses the testimony of witnesses to weave it into a believable story. Dry pages, and things on the table with labels and tags ... in and of themselves do little. The jury starts out presuming the defendant is innocent. Then they are brought into the conflicted state of "maybe he did it" ... finally, they are convinced one way or the other by one of the two attorneys. Hung juries are not happy juries ... and certainly can't be left that way indefinitely.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I suppose that the best thing I can tell you about an INFJ female is that they are very loyal, almost to a fault, and that if you are able to find a way (considering your own nature) to provide her with a safe, secure, and peaceful environment, she may come around.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah! A possible source of psychological leverage. Play the loyalty card. And what if she says "Where has your loyalty been?" ... well "Two wrongs don't make a right" and "We're not talking about my imperfections, we're talking about you violating a fundamental principle in your own nature that you will not be able to forgive yourself for in the future."<P>Clearly these are all tactics and gambits. Some may be transparent, but effective anyway. If <B><I>dcope/impulsive</I></B> were an insincere cad, to use them would be evil. But he's fighting for his marriage. When and if he uses these tactics, he's not just manipulating; he is himself making implicit promises. I believe he intends to keep those promises. That, and only that, gives him the moral authority to pull out all the stops to keep his wife.