<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Help! I'm growing increasingly impatient. Can it be that no amoount of change on my part will turn my wife around to give me another opportunity? She does not know how to forgive. I can see her conflicted but she does not know how to try again. She won't seek counciling. She won't read any books. All she keeps saying is she is not ready and don't think she will ever be ready. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Imp, the last ingredient in your recovery is time, and it can't be rushed. If your impatience doesn't force a decision when she isn't sold yet on the new you, I think you have a good chance. But every time you force a relationship talk, try for SF, act impatient/impulsive, or lay a guilt trip on her, a flash goes off in her face that you haven't changed, that it is all an act, that if she opens up the bad old imp will be back.<P>You need to suck it up, show some discipline, strive for a consistent Plan A. Find a gear you can maintain for the long run...that is what I am focusing on now. <P>Mike

Well today is our 6th Anniversary. I bought a bottle of Kendall-Jackson Zinfandel and a nice card. We slept in the same bed last night. Ms. Bad Influence slept over last night and I took her to the airport this morning. Wifey was cuddling a little and it felt so good, but I maintained my composure and didn'y overreact. Thanks guys I need those words of encouragment. Hopefully we will have many more anniversaries in the future. Tell me if my handwritten message is to heavy.<P>Just as I loved you more last week then I did 6 years ago<BR>I love you more today then yesterday. Despite everything else I will love you forever.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Tell me if my handwritten message is to heavy. Just as I loved you more last week then I did 6 years ago<BR>I love you more today then yesterday. Despite everything else I will love you forever.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmmm...sweet and sappy. Well, at least it went with the Zinfandel <P>Happy Anniversary, Impy. You don't see it now, but your marriage is in a better place than it was last year or the year before. Last year there was just an unhappy wife and an unenlightened husband. Just like with me. Now at least there is a husband with a clue and a wife that is confused rather than secretly planning a single life. You are building an honest base to go forward from.<P>

Well, I have to have expectations in order to be disappointed right? Well, I'm not disappointed in the fact that she had no idea it was our anniversary. She was honestly surprised to see the gifts, I got her. She felt uncomfortable I could tell. She thanked me several times, she apologized a few times without being specific about what she was sorry about. She hugged me once, and I hugged her back but didn't let on to my alleged disappointment. I guess it was a love bank deposit, so i'm not going to dwell on the reaction because I didn't do it to get a reaction I did it because I love her completely. No expectations is my new goal. Just positive, unsmothering love without pressure. I did buy her the things she loved the most from Victoria's Secret. Satin Waterbra with matching panties. Shew had mentioned before that lingerie would be inappropriate but underwear is a neccessacity so since we have been married I always enjoyed buying her fancy satin and lace panties and bras from Victoria's Secret. She really enjoys them also. She wasted no time wearing them she wore them right away, as she was getting out of the shower as I arrived home so she could go to work. I feel a little moopy, because she felt guilty that she forgot, and didn't have anything for me. It kinda took away from the fun of buying a gift, not because I didn't get anything but because she didn't seem to feel totally comfortable because she honestly forgot. Back to the couch, and hopefully I'll have a better anniversary next year!!!

I read the message about the personality types,went to the page and came back with this: I am a ENFJ and my husband(according to my calculation only!) is an ISTP---someone please comment on this.<P>FYI please see previous entries past 3-4 days or so.<P>Thanks for your help.<P>LKD

lkd - I'm an INFJ female whose first husband was an ISTP. He passed away just over six years ago. I have since been happily married to a lovely ENFJ - drives me crazy in his own little way, but very kind and thoughtful. <P>I'm actually working on a book, a work of fiction based on my real story about the year in my life when my ISTP husband passed away, and coping with that year. I was only 28. <P>You may find the second chapter interesting - very rough - first draft so quite choppy. It is written through the eyes of my sister who is an ESTP – based on actual things that were said and happened at the time. The writing will get better I hope. Right now I’m just working on getting the story down. You can find the first draft of that chapter on <A HREF="http://www.flamingthings.com/B/Chapter002.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.flamingthings.com/B/Chapter002.htm</A> <P>Please post a link to the page you have your own discussion on so that we don’t clutter up Impulsive’s discussion. <BR>

Her discomfort is a sign of the cognitive dissonance between the distorted image of you she has required herself to develop in order to build the desire to leave, and the real, changed impy. It's a good thing.<P>In her mind, it's probably time to see if you can be made to prove you're still beset by demons. It's time for a provocation. Be steadfast. Don't be provoked, but don't go overboard on the saintliness ... it probably won't sell, and even if it does sell, it would support her saying she's "undeserving" of the new you. In other words, keep leading, but don't get so far ahead she feels like quitting because she can't catch up.

Maybe I should take it as progress, but i don't want to track progress because then I would have expectations right? It seems that I'm back in the bed. She came home from work and just got into the bed with me and we slept all night. I am working hard not do do anything to push the envelope. For some reason I have been horny as heck but I can't afford to apply any pressure. I don't want to do anything thing that lands me back out on the couch. I think she has developed an aversion to sex. Suddenly she has no sexual desire at all. She says she can live without it and she does not feel sexual at all. I think it may have been from teh pressure I was applying before. Could it be that my taker has murdered her sex drive? Is this microscopic progress that I'm back in the bed or am I reading to far into things again? I think I've been here before and I did something stupid to take steps backwards. Positive reenforcement needed!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Maybe I should take it as progress, but i don't want to track progress because then I would have expectations right? It seems that I'm back in the bed. She came home from work and just got into the bed with me and we slept all night.</B><P>I thought you were on the couch and she was in the bed?<P><B>For some reason I have been horny as heck but I can't afford to apply any pressure.</B><P>Apply pressure with your hand. You can afford it, it's free.<P><B>Suddenly she has no sexual desire at all. She says she can live without it and she does not feel sexual at all. I think it may have been from teh pressure I was applying before. Could it be that my taker has murdered her sex drive?</B><P>She just brought this up? Don't be drawn into discussions about sex...that is your need, not hers.<P>Sleeping in the same bed is a positive step. As you say, you've gone off the track here in the past. Exercise some discipline.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Maybe I should take it as progress, but i don't want to track progress because then I would have expectations right?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmm. Good point, I think. But you <I>do</I> have to track changes, since you will need to adapt to them. And remember that having expectations and having hope are two different things. Keep the hope, but drop the expectations.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think she has developed an aversion to sex. Suddenly she has no sexual desire at all. She says she can live without it and she does not feel sexual at all. I think it may have been from teh pressure I was applying before. Could it be that my taker has murdered her sex drive? Is this microscopic progress that I'm back in the bed or am I reading to far into things again?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's still too soon to tell, impulsive. But remember that what happens with your wife is not all about <I>you</I>. Your wife is generating plenty of internal pressure herself, likely enough to have affected her sex drive. Also, an aversion to intimacy often looks like an aversion to sex.<P>As one who is continually analyzing, I am a poor one to say "don't over-analyze". But if you <I>must</I> analyze, try not to take your speculations too seriously.<P>This is a case where you don't need all your questions answered in order to know what to do.<BR>

I was invited to the bed the day before because her friend slept over. Last night she went to work and when she came home I was sleep in her/our bed. She didn't ask me to get up or say she would sleep on the couch like she had in the the past so we slept peacefully. I applied some sexual pressure last week by asking her to be my co-pilot during masturbation. The mistake I've made is when she asks for sex I assume it's ok for me to ask for sex and when she doesn't oblige I get disappointed and she feels guilty then she feels like giving into he sexual feelings were a mistake because it cause pressure down the line. If i was able to control myself and have real no-strings attached sex when she intiated it I would probably be in a better situation with her sexually. I'm not going to bring up sex at all this time. I don't want to masturbate. Masturbation increases my focus on sex. It makes me want to approach her for satisfaction. We have been having very pleasant conversations around the house lately. I want to reenforce the positives and not dwell on the negatives. So sleeping together in the same bed is a positive? Well I guess I'll just count my blessings. I'm avoiding relationship talks. The wife made a comment a couple of days ago that set me back about sex. She said that while we were together we would have sex and I would pummel her for sometimes a hour or more and turn her around in all these positions and she would feel like such a piece of meat. I was taken aback because for years I was conditioned to believe that women wanted long drawn out sex from time to time, but my wife actually disliked the marathon sessions. She also mentions that she felt so much pressure to perform and satisfy that now that she is out of the relationship she feels so relieved. Has anyone else ever had to deal with this?

If a woman is disenchanted but still committed ... sex becomes an unpleasant duty. Which she will feel pressured to fulfill. To the extent she complies, resentment will build up--pressing against the sense of commitment. If the sense of commitment is broken, there is of course a sense of relief. But if a husband is sensitive to things that erode the relationship (both inside and outside the sexual realm), that stage is never reached.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She said that while we were together we would have sex and I would pummel her for sometimes a hour or more and turn her around in all these positions and she would feel like such a piece of meat.</B><P>Hmmm....well, in order to judge, I'd have to see the video. You have my email, send it on.<P><B>Has anyone else ever had to deal with this? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nobody in withdrawal likes sex more than the frequency that their body craves it. If your more-in-love partner forces you to have sex more often or longer than you might like, than you will resent it and eventually become sexually averse.<P>My W was on that path, I think. She would have sex pretty much as often as I wanted, and would always have..er..completion, and I figured that was a sign that everything was cool with her.<P>Oddly, now, the tables have turned, and it is me who is more disinterested the last few months, and her that is always initiating or insisting or concerned about my desire. And now I can relate to how she was beginning to feel....sometimes I'd rather sleep than fool around, and the orgasm just doesn't mean that much. It all depends on where your head is at.<BR> <BR>Impy, Harley told me to be "casual" about sex. That is what you need to do, and in all seriousness, I think at this point your marriage depends on your ability to do so flawlessly from here forward. The next sexual pressure episode might be the last straw for her. Sometimes the mindset becomes that one greta sexual episode is going to solve everything, but I don't think women feel that way...it is more emotional with them. In that situation, you are making far more marital headway by respecting their boundaries than by having them make reluctant love to you. <P>As to the bed thing, I would be concerned about crossing the boundary that she set, since you are back in there without being invited (the night that her friend slept over being an exception). I hope she isn't resenting you being there in bed, because that is not something you can inflict right now.<P> <P>

Well I came home in time for her to go to work and she had her bed piled with junk. Then she said to me don't clean off the bed I'll put that stuff away when I get home. I took that to mean that she didn't want me in the bed tonight when she got home. So I asked her straight up. She says We have already talked about this. hinting at no she doesn't want me in the bed with her. Then she turns right around and says Sleep in the bed, but with a frustrated tone. I'm at the point where I'm at the end of my rope. This is getting worse not better. If she doesn't want this marriage then she can struggle by herself and I'll go on with my life minus her. I'm tired. Two wrongs do not make a right. OK so I was a idiot for a long time and she put up with it! So now what am I to eat crap for the next 6 years before she decides she want to save the marriage. I'm meeting all the needs she want. Financial, domestic support, conversation, and admiration. I'm getting nothing in return. Fine, Life is to short to be miserable. I'll stop meeting her needs and let her see what it's like to be single and struggling. She is so eager to be single, then fine. I've done all I can do to save my marriage. I'm lonely as hell, I'm twice as horny as hell and nothing on the horizon but setback after setback, and at the same time she has the nerve to ask for favor after favor. She didn't even remember our anniversary for Christ's sake! Why am I here trying to make something work? It's totally onesided, and the prognosis is bleek at best. I reached this point in my last marriage and I was hoping things would turn around before I reached it here. I begged and tried, and tried, She said no no no. Then I met my wife now and then my ex came around beging but i was to bitter and tired to turn back. I'm reaching that point fast. I'm feeling resentment build up and I'm starting to feel crapped on. I'm sleeping in my bed, and if she wants to sleep on the couch God bless her. I won't ask her for nothing and she does not have to ask me for anything. If a pretty woman walks past me butt naked on payday, it's a done deal. If I was still a jerk and didn't have feelings i could care less about her constant rejection, and apathy. I'm loving, humble, and respectful and all she cares about is what she wants. She can do it now without me.

Hey, does anyone know how to get hold of impulsive? He needs to know that his Taker got loose...<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B>Hey, does anyone know how to get hold of impulsive? He needs to know that his Taker got loose...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah....given the last paragraph of my previous message, I think I'll pack up my instincts and go to Vegas.....<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Then she turns right around and says Sleep in the bed, but with a frustrated tone.</B><P>Well, Imp, this was just another episode of the boundary setting, no more, no less. You have to stay back until you are invited. Focus on BECOMING attractive...is being needy attractive? Or is being strong and independent and happy attractive? <P><B>OK so I was a idiot for a long time and she put up with it! So now what am I to eat crap for the next 6 years before she decides she want to save the marriage.]</B><P>Well, she put up with it six years...you have only been planning A for about 90 days, and even that has been spotty. As I said before, find a gear you can maintain.<P><B>[I'm meeting all the needs she want. Financial, domestic support, conversation, and admiration. I'm getting nothing in return.</B><P>I think you are making lovebank deposits with your efforts. Financial support may still need work....a crisis over borrowing $80 for a car does not spell financial security for most people. But you have definitely made headway there. Financial support is a tricky one, because people have different concepts of security. To some people it is no bill collectors calling...to others it is fully funded retirement and college funds. Most people fall in between, but it is the rare couple that agree precisely.<P>But, as you know, your lovebank deposits are often being counterbalanced by slipups in lovebusters (as defined by your W). That may mean an unwanted sexual pass, or intruding on 'her' bed, or acting suspicious, or laying guilt on her, or unasked for touching or affection. She defines the lovebusters now, there is no appealing them. Until you can heel your Taker and put a hard stop to the lovebusters, your lovebank efforts on her needs are only registering pennies on the dollar. <P>Despiteall that, she has definitely noticed your changes, and that is great! You have to recognize that she is appreciating part of your efforts, but your lovebusting is an anchor on the overall progress.<P><B>She can do it now without me.</B><P>Careful you don't get what you ask for, my friend. Better to retreat humbly to the couch. I suspect that it will pay dividends if you do. You always have the nuclear option available. But why do it 90 days into a sputtering Plan A? Perfect your behaviors...if she doesn't respond after 6 months of a PERFECT Plan A, reassess your options.<P>If there were another party involved, I guess at some point here you would be talking Plan B to preserve your love for her, since it is obviously fraying right now. But I don't think you have laid down the track record necessary for that yet. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited May 31, 2001).]

So you think I should go back to the couch?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>So you think I should go back to the couch?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's the safer thing to do. If your communication is going well enough, you might ask again what your wife prefers, since your previous inquiry resulted in a mixed message: words saying one thing and tone saying another - at least so far as you were able to interpret it.<P>It is critical that in your interaction with your wife you respect her boundaries. However, these boundaries are likely to be in flux, and you have no way of knowing what they are unless your wife <I>tells</I> you. To make matters even more confusing, she probably doesn't know what they are herself. Indeed, I'm guessing that her inability to establish boundaries for herself is a significant cause of the current state of your relationship. Like I said before, it's not all about <I>you</I>.<BR>

I approached my wife with her weeding ring and asked her ro put it on until our divorce is final. She asked why I said because regardless of teh circumstances we are married. She gave me some BS about her finger is swollen and that it won't fit. THIS IS MY LINE IN THE SAND. I have been wearing my ring and acting married for the last 4 months. Since she refuses to wear her ring and act married, I refuse to wear mine and act married. Enough is Enough. This really is not about my taker. My wife has been walking around for the last 4 months enjoying all the benefits of being married and me changing to become a better person. I have been supportive and patient. When she wants sex she gets it. When she wants me to get out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the store she get's it. I clean. I cook, I do laundry, I provide flawless domestic support. Every bill she asks for money for I pay. Everything she has asked for she has gotten without shouldering one responsibility of marriage. I sat her down and told her that she has been saying for the last 4 months that I have been ignoring her, and not respecting her and trying to get my way. I told her that the only thing I've been trying ot do is get close enough to her for her to see that I love her. I would never hurt her again, and that there was a opportunity for happiness if she gave herself a chance to be happy. Why try for 6 years trying to turn on a lamp while the lamp is not plugged into the outlet. Then I show you the reason the lamp wouldn't come on and then you decide that you don't want the lamp on anymore. But your still standing in the dark. Well I can't force her to turn on the lamp. If she wants to stand in the dark fine. I also told her that for some period of time, I don't know how long she will have a opportunity to save our marriage, and be happy together. I told that I'm not talking about it anymore, and I'm not trying to get her to let me in anymore, this is what she has been asking for... so now she has it. I understand that from my perspective this is very likely the death nail in my marriage's coffin. My marriage was dead 4 months ago when she decided that she was quitting and not looking back. The only thing she has been doing over the last 4 months is enjoying the benefits of having a soft landing, and smooth winddown. It's easy to walk away from a marriage when you have someone catering to your every need and wish. It's a little harder when you have to live the loneliness, and isolation and reality that the person I have been over the last 4 months is better then what she can very likely find out ther anywhere.