I am preparing for the worst because we are both in withdrawal at this point. When I came home from church tonight she said a couple of words went back into her room closed the door no goodnight nothing. Now before this would bother me terribly. Tonight I could have cared less. That is not a good sign. Now she is not talking and I'm not talking and I could care less. I would love to keep trying but there is no gas left in the tank. I paid all the bills today. The bottom line is she feels dependant on me but doesn't want to be dependant on me. However while she is she coud show some respect and gratitude. Treating me like a indentured servant is not exactly the fast track to saving a marriage.

Now would be a good moment to do something unexpectedly nice for your wife. Flowers or candy, with a card. It'll remind her you're not an indentured servant. And it'll remind her how hard you're trying. If you're really doing what you say you're doing, it will buy you more time to keep doing it. And it'll remind you that when you think you're worn out, there is a little more down in there if you just reach in deep for it. <P>Have you spoken to your pastor about your situation lately? He may have some words for you about what you're going through. Maybe Job would be appropriate ... or Nehemiah's struggle to rehab the temple...

I'm really trying to dig down deep and try to keep going but it is very hard. I did a few nice things for her and it just seems like we are letting time pass. I'm not reaching out, she's not reaching out. We seem like a pair of roommates. The ironic part is the kids seem to be benefiting from all the affection and love we aren't giving to each other. I guess that's a positive thing. I'm not a quitter but I'm really at my ropes end.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I'm really trying to dig down deep and try to keep going but it is very hard. I did a few nice things for her and it just seems like we are letting time pass. I'm not reaching out, she's not reaching out. We seem like a pair of roommates. The ironic part is the kids seem to be benefiting from all the affection and love we aren't giving to each other. I guess that's a positive thing. I'm not a quitter but I'm really at my ropes end. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, if you're not committing the lovebusters, and you're finding a few nice things to do for your wife, then I'd guess you're doing a pretty good job. It may <I>seem</I> like you're just "letting time pass", but that doesn't mean something isn't going on <I>inside</I> your wife. Whatever that is may be good, or it may be bad, but, regardless, it gives you a chance to let Plan A settle in and work.<P>This is that agonizing time when you can't really do anything but wonder what's happening and work on becoming the person you want to be. Keep looking for the occasional opportunity to meet your wife's ENs (whether you feel like it or not), but make sure you are also finding opportunities to do things for yourself.<BR>

Well she invited me to sleep in the bed with her last night. I did and she cuddled a time or two over the course of the night. I'm not getting excited or worked up anymore because the cycle has been very clear. Positive, negative, neutral. Positive, negative, neutral. I will voulunteerily go back to my couch tonight and won't overstep my bounds. My biggest sruggle is with my taker. I find myself trying not to look at her, or compliment her to much because the more I look at her, the more I will want her. If I massage her at night I will get aroused. So I'm sticking to no pressure, no expectations, no physical contact unless she initiates it. Definetely no relationship talks. I'm trying not to give up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Well she invited me to sleep in the bed with her last night.</B><P>Good!<P><B>I will voulunteerily go back to my couch tonight and won't overstep my bounds.</B><P>Smart!<P><B> My biggest struggle is with my taker.</B><P>No! You??? <P>Find a gear where you can be consistent. You comment on how she has wild swings....try to take that out of YOUR behavior (trust me, it is there).<P>Let her be the pursuer a litttle, impy....hey, at least the dynamic is different, right?

I need help dealing with loneliness, and frustration. My first impule is to withdraw but so many people have said that me withdrawing is counterproductive. I don't know what else to do. Suggestions please.

Has anyone seen my taker around anywhere?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Has anyone seen my taker around anywhere?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry. You just missed him. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I need help dealing with loneliness, and frustration. My first impule is to withdraw but so many people have said that me withdrawing is counterproductive. I don't know what else to do. Suggestions please.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Do you have any male friends? Perhaps from church? If not, can you make some? My friends have been very important to me. My family has been very supportive, but they are not local. So I have gone back and renewed as many friendships as I could, even from years ago (in an attempt to avoid being too demanding of any single friend). If you can cultivate friendships with couples, that's also a good idea. You never know: eventually you might be able to nudge your wife into a relationship that would be a more positive influence than her current drinking buddy.<P>Frustration is born of expectation. I don't think there's anything wrong with taking a mental and emotional step back, as long as you don't actually turn away from your wife. Remember, you don't have to <I>feel</I> like trying to meet your wife's needs as long as you do so, and do so <I>freely</I> (without resentment or expecting anything in return). Your <I>attitude</I> is what's important here, not your feelings.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 07, 2001).]

I have to be honest and tell you that I'm not meeting her needs because I am so empty and lonely that I don't want to be around or with her. She is so cold and distant that it makes me want to leave. When I'm away from the house I'm as happy and as pleasant a person can be but as soon as I come home it's like I'm saturated in depression and gloom. She's not the least bit interested in any of my needs and honestly I'm not interested her needs. We barely speak because she walks around like she can care less that are marriage is in shambles and it breaks my heart. This is what i was afraid of if I tried to stay plugged into the marriage I would end up feeling this pain. While I was withdrawn I didn't care about anything.

Remember, "Down and Depressed" is not helpful. You want to be just this side of her being able to say you're "pretending there's nothing wrong". <P>Maybe you ought to reread this: <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8111_leave.html</A> <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 08, 2001).]

Well things have not got any better. Not even a little bit. It's been over two months since the last time we have actually had sexual intercourse and she says she has no desire what so ever. Where it stands now is she is out for herself. She has her own agenda that is about her independence and self reliance. My money is ours and her money is hers sort of thing. I get the feeling that she is using me finacially to get where she does not need me then she can leave. We have had several relationship talks over the last couple of days and it always end up at the same place. I say just try to make it work, and she says NO I can't I don't have it in me to try anymore. I'm very frustrated right now because I feel abandoned. We are married!! I here stories all the time about marriages that have come back from far worse then what we experienced. Drug addiction, Alcoholism, adultery, and love children. Married people endure. The part that hurts is that I've changed. I would never tell a person to stay in a abusive situation just for the sake of staying married. However if the person is sincerly trying to change and the abuse stops Save the marriage. Twice if there are kids involved. I can't get my wife to understand that we are married and you don't throw marriages out because the going got a little rough. She is itter because during my depressed years our finances suffered. We had to move a few times because the rent was behind. But every time we moved I had the money to get another place. We were never on the streets. One of the reasons I was having such problems is because i was trying to live beyond my means trying to give my family the best. I don't get credit for providing the best I could all i get is the grief for my short comings. I've made some terrible mistakes but I never not loved her or my kids. I think she is taking the easy way out. It's a little hard now so I'll jump off the ship. That is not what marriage is suppose to be about.

She's doing what she thinks she needs to do. There are many other things she might have decided she needed to do, such as build an ark in the backyard. Many of them would be tolerable, if not amusing.<P>The only thing that separates her current plans from those other possibilities is the fact that the plans do not include <I>you</I> as her husband. <P>Q. How does someone figure out that they really don't want to build an ark in the backyard? A. On their own.<P>Anyone who tries to stop them from building an ark in the backyard (brings the permit inspector around, hides the tools, points out design flaws, etc.) is simply an obstacle to be overcome. Perhaps such a large one that in focusing on overcoming the obstacle, the deluded person actually winds up building the ark ... which they didn't really want if they sat down and thought about it, but now that they've got it they have to live with it so they put it in the water and enjoy it.<P>The point is, you need to be accepting of her intention, but not an enabler of it. And you need to separate your devastation that she might leave you from the attitude you show toward what she is doing. But that doesn't mean you stop undermining Ms. Bad Influence.<P>Which brings up a very difficult point: the money she is accumulating herself, and not contributing to the household. I don't like it, but I don't have a good idea what to do about it. Perhaps you should look at some books to find an appropriate countermeasure.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I can't get my wife to understand that we are married and you don't throw marriages out because the going got a little rough. She is itter because during my depressed years our finances suffered. We had to move a few times because the rent was behind. But every time we moved I had the money to get another place. We were never on the streets. One of the reasons I was having such problems is because i was trying to live beyond my means trying to give my family the best. I don't get credit for providing the best I could all i get is the grief for my short comings.</B><P>Maybe your wife is hearing this:<P>"Times were never so bad"(she thought it was a shameful nightmare)<P>"I deserve credit for providing the best I could" (she doesn't hear any urgency to build financial security for the future)<P>""We were never actually out in the street" (he isn't concerned about how close we came)<P>Financial security is a very tough issue. It is deceiving because people want to measure it in dollars, but it has to be measured in <B><I>peace of mind</B></I>. And that differs from human to human like fingerprints.<P>I have been on both sides of this issue. Early in my marriage, I was building a good professional career, saw the promise in my business, was confident in the future. My W only saw credit card balances. Now, we have a substantial net worth and investments, but she doesn't see that....she sees monthly expenses, mortgage, property taxes, that are insanely beyond anything she grew up with. Finally I put a year's expenses in passbook savings so she felt secure. Two freaking percent interest.<P>I think your W has a high bar now on financial security, raised because of the past shelter issues. It is probably her number one EN, and it is certainly the number one EN that she is allowing you to meet (with DS and FC). I think you need to show <B>urgency</B> in your financial efforts...it is almost more important to show a changed mindset than it is to bring home $100 more a week or whatever. She may be looking at you and seeing complacency, where she is feeling a red flashing light.<P>My W shocked me a few months ago when I asked her why she married me, and she said it was because I was ambitious (and funny, but I draw no moral from that here). She had a childhood that bordered on abject poverty, three kids in one bedrooom in a tiny 2 bedroom house. I don't know your W's financial background, but she is an ISTJ, right? Same as my W? Anyway, the wolf was always at the door in my W's youth, and she wasn't going to marry a lazy provider.<P>Anyway, in the absence of other opportunities right now, redouble your financial efforts, and make sure she sees it and senses a commitment to THRIVE not just survive.<BR>

Mike's post is right on the money. And also echoes issues from my own failed marriage. <P>I'm looking for a way to cause the money from the wife's job not to allow her to leave quickly. There may be some part of an answer in this last posting. It will require some selling--but I think anyone (but her) would agree that money earned by a spouse should go to the family weal, not their individual benefit. The latter is what is happening with the "I'm leaving" kitty. And it should stop.<P>If dCope/Impulsive can convince STBXW that it would be unfair to save while denying him the opportunity to do the same, <I><B>and</I></B> he simultaneously sets up an IRA, SEP, or other retirement plan that effectively locks him out of his cookie jar (except on onerous terms), he can cause her to up increase contribution to the household, while at the same time increasing his savings. This would have the effect of crippling her departure timetable while at the same time eroding one of its driving rationales.<P>Assuming he can't sell it, he would need to be ready to carry through on a unilateral decision to start saving--while at the same time increasing a joint debt that she would have to contribute to in the event of divorce. It's a nastier option that could cause abandonment in the short term, but somehow I think that even while dcope/impulsive has done these randy behaviors in the past, he has simultaneously failed to stand up for himself in the marriage (some might label it <I>passive-aggressive</I>). Maybe it's time for yet another change.<P>Of course, the nature of the crisis this would provoke and how it would be handled should be the subject of some debate here before anything happens.<P>My point would be: use a fairness argument to drain some of "her" money and make it "his" money, or at least "their" money (joint retirement account). And try to reach agreement, but be prepared with a secondary plan in the event there is no agreement. <B><I>She's</I></B> certainly not following POJA right now, and won't be likely to. <B><I>He</B></I> needs to do what is necessary to protect himself and his children. If that's messy, so be it.<P>I'm not saying do it right now, I am saying it needs to be batted around as an idea.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 14, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Mike's post is right on the money.</B><P>Naturally, this opinion has me rethinking my entire stance <P>I think it would be a fatal error for imp to do anything that will exacerbate his W's frustration over finances. She needs to feel the financial burden easing, not see it handcuffing her to the marriage. This is a hearts and minds campaign, not a financial/logistics exercise in imprisonment. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited June 14, 2001).]

Mike, I can see your point ... avoiding conflict at all costs. But what she's being allowed to do is to further her withdrawal. I'm not sure that's the right course.<P>I'm not talking about <I>imprisonment</I>, I am talking about not allowing her selfishness to proceed unopposed. She can <I>always</I> walk away from the marriage. With the clothes on her back, without the kids, and into someone's spare room (Ms. Bad Influence's?). If that's her choice, so be it. A marriage is a partnership, not a fairy tale. dCope/impulsive is within his rights to insist he be treated equitably. The fact that for all those years his STBXW <I><B>didn't</I></B> insist ... does not change what is happening in this moment. Her suffering ... was in part due to her own failure of nerve or character. And caused dcope/impulsive to suffer too. This is not blaming the victim. Someone who allows something to go on over a long period of time when they had the ability to oppose it ... has given up the right to call herself a victim. One is the victim of a single incident (or even continuing abuse if one is incapacitated), but when it goes on and on ... there is a tacit complicity.<P>Back to the money conflict:<P>There doesn't have to be nuclear war over this. In the best of all possible worlds, she enthusiastically agrees to the proposal. In the worst of all possible worlds, she immediately walks. <P>Of course, what likely will happen is that she will be drawn back into conflict. dCope/Impulsive then needs to try to move through the conflict back into a state of harmony. Without selling out the marriage.<P>Perhaps this isn't the moment. Perhaps it can't ever be done. Perhaps this is the wrong conflict. A gradualist might start saving a little, and ask her for a little more money, without ever having the discussion. I don't think subterfuge would be the right approach. But I don't think just lying down for what she's doing is the right approach either. <P>Again, I'm looking for ideas here too. I just think dcope/impulsive needs to be proactive. Even if that is momentarily painful. Plan A is not about being a doormat.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>Mike, I can see your point ... avoiding conflict at all costs.</B><P>No, that's not my point. <P>My point is that, assuming that Imp's W's number one issue is financial support, picking fights over money is exactly the WRONG thing to do. Quietly rebuilding her confidence in both their financial state and his future as a wage earner is the RIGHT thing to do. And I think letting her have a little nest egg is the RIGHT thing to do to help alleviate her anxiety and stop her flight instinct. Tapping her small income with a result, intentional or not, of handcuffing her to the marriage may temporarily keep her physically close while shutting her heart forever.<P>Imp should look for opportunities for her to notice him being industrious, thrifty, saving money, paying down debts. DON'T point it out, then it seems like an act. But she will notice over time, and then her attitude may change.<P><BR>

I will touch on the financial issue in a moment but we had a slight conflict this afternoon. While sitting at the computer today she asked me if my son had any activities this weekend. I responded no. She said good, because Ms. Bad Influence invited her and the kids out to her new boyfriend's cabin in the country. I turned and asked intently "Excuse Me" "what did you say". She looked befuddled and said "I'm taking the boys christmas shopping". I said no really what did you say? She said what's your problem with it. I said just because your walking around here acting like your not married doesn't mean that you are not married. For you single, party animal, cocaine sniffing, promiscuious friend to invite a married woman to the country without her husband is totally disrespectful! The reason she does not respect the marriage is because you have shown and told her that you don't consider yourself married! She said that I have not listened to her, or respected her wishes not to be married. I said no it's not that I don't listen I listen very well it's just that I don't agree with your position that the marriage should be thrown away because of the issues we face now. I said let's cut to the chase is there someone else? She said no! I said well listen her is our options at this point. <P>1. You can leave without the kids. I don't want you to leave but, I can't make you stay here. I refuse to abandon my home or my family. <P>2. We can try to make the marriage work. You have made it abundantly clear that you don't want to try, and you don't want to be married. I've told you countless times i don't want to be married just for married sake. If you try and it don't work I'll leave volunteerily. I just can't see giving up without trying or counseling, or a legitamate bilateral effort from both of us. <P>3. We can maintain the status quo. Which doesn't make sense because we could be wasting valuable time. I want to be happy. You want to be happy and the boys deserve happiness. Why not try to see if we can obtain it together? If we can't let's part friends and find people that we can be happy with. <P>My point to her was this. Life is to short to be miserable. Let's be happy. I would'nt ask you to come back to the same BS that dominated our marriage before. You put up with me for years while i was lost and not trying to be engaged in our marriage. Now I'm ready and your withdrawn. I'm noticing more and more that she seems to be becoming more and more resentful of my ability to bounce back from devestation unharmed. She wants me to suffer because she suffered. I understand her pain but the bottom line is i can't live in the past. i can fix the present and the future if given a opportunity. She is becoming more and more entreanched in her position of I don't want what you want. Let's be best friends and move on. I work to dig us out of the financial hole until she is able and secure in leaving. Her perspective is I helped put her in this position so I'm obligated to help her get out. I don't have a problem with that but in the interim she is unilaterally positioning herself for independence and separation. The problem I have is that she is functioning and thinking in the mindset of teammates in the financial realm, but in everyother aspect of life or our relationship she is emotionally divorced already. Is that withdrawal? Taking what you want and leaving the rest. I told her I'm never leaving my home or family. In N.Y. State there are only 9 viable reasons for divorce. Right now I don't think she has grounds. If she leaves it streghths my position for the kis. Then she would be abandoning them. That's another reason I don't want to leave because then I relinquish all my right or claims. I hated to tell her that she had to either stay in the marriage and make it work or leave her kids behind or maintain the status quo, but that is the situation. She feels trapped and i hate that but the fact remains that I'm not the person that hurt her and I would never do anything else to jeopardize my marriage again in life. I have become the person and developed the skills needed to meet her needs. All of her objections are directly connected to the past. Well it ended with her having to get ready for work. My bottom line is I'm not trying to pressure her or talk to her about our situation. I told her I can't do anything else. I've done all I can. In my eyes one of two things is going to happen. Either GOD is going to turn her around or take her from me. Either way I have to live as full and happy a life as possible. I told her I pray that our marriage can survive because I think our kids deserve it and she certainly deserves it. She seems hell bent on focusing on the negative. I'm as happy as a person can be in my shoes. I'm maintaing a positive outlook. I'm nice and friendly, and engaging. She takes the space i give her and places a bigger wedge between us. The other issue is when i'm very nice and we are getting along great it reenforces that the reason things are soooo good is because we are not in the marrige. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. What next. Can someone please give me some stratergy to turn this thing around or get over it??? Please!!