I'd say she's in <I>conflict</I> with you now. It feels <I>worse</I> but it's actually <I>better</I> if you manage it properly. <P>You could work out what you think would be the first step from her toward reconciliation in each area. From there work backward toward what you could do to motivate her to take that first step. And try it. <P>As with all things in life, there are no guarantees. But if she takes the children away to be with people who are doing bad things, either they will learn to do bad things or they will learn to despise their mother. Neither is any good. <P>Hang in there. I feel a breakthrough right around the corner.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>My point is that, assuming that Imp's W's number one issue is financial support, picking fights over money is exactly the WRONG thing to do.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In my view, she gets to build a nest egg. But no faster than he builds a retirement fund. Impy is not going out to party on these $$$. If he were doing that, the conflict over money would be a destructive one. The conflict over his desire to save could also be destructive, but it has a greater likelihood to be <I>constructive</I>. It all depends on Impy's handling of it and on where <I><B>she</B></I> is in her own thinking. <P>I think at this juncture, Impy has earned the privilege of targeting specific behaviors on STBX?W's part that erode the marriage. He and she are going to have to go back into the badlands of conflict in order to get anything resolved.<P>Now, here's a financial security idea you may not have thought of. If you own your own home, and have lived in it two years, you can sell it and up to $500k of gain is tax-free (nonrecognition) income. Interest rates are pretty low right now. You can get into another house, perhaps at or near the cost for your current one. But even if it's higher, you're paying it off over 30 years at a low rate of interest, and the new house should appreciate just like the old one. Meanwhile, you can invest that windfall at a higher rate of interest. Of course, she has to cooperate with the program. And that may be an area where you can start to rebuild cooperative spirit. IMHO, anybody who doesn't buy a beater house in a great neighborhood and fix it up to sell out on a two-year schedule is a dunce, absent compelling reasons to do otherwise. But if you can prove some financial genius to her ... <P><p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 15, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>If you own your own home, and have lived in it two years, you can sell it and up to $500k of gain is tax-free (nonrecognition) income. Interest rates are pretty low right now. You can get into another house, perhaps at or near the cost for your current one.</B><P>Well, I'm not an accountant, but if you make $500k in two years that is a pretty amazing real estate appreciation.<P>My understanding of the capital gain exception is that it is a one-time, lifetime deal, and it only counts toward the gain made between the price of the old home and the price of the new home. In other words, it is designed for empty nesters downsizing. If you sell a home for $500 k and make $100k over what you bought it for, but then buy a new home for $550, there is no capital gain issue either way.<P>I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Imp. <P>Mike<P><BR>

We have no idea if or for how long Impy has owned his home. I got $60k appreciation over two years in one I sold, and it was no great shakes, nor did I put much into it. <P>The "one time, over 55" restriction is gone, nor do you need to roll all gain over into a new residence (you're foolish if you do). Now the only question is did you live there two of the last five years--if so, you get nonrecognition. <BR> <A HREF="http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-news/at-01-41.pdf" TARGET=_blank>http://ftp.fedworld.gov/pub/irs-news/at-01-41.pdf</A> <P>In combination with s. 1031 regs, this opens the IRS to spectacular loophole-driven robbery, but I won't get into that here. <P>What this has to do with Imp is, the house will likely be sold if there is a divorce--involuntarily. But what if he "discovers" this source of tax-free wealth, and is proactive now to sell <I>voluntarily</I>? He looks better in her eyes. And if she gets to enjoy moving into a new place (he can condition the sale on her agreement to move in to a new place with him), that may also happily distract her from Ms. Bad Influence. A fresh start, new beginning, etc.<P>There's careful planning, timing and presentation needed. This can't seem like grasping for straws. It could be worked into a larger overall plan. <P>But if the house sells due to divorce, it will likely be a quick sale at a distressed price. Impy's choice.

I don't own a house and I am back in my bed. More details to follow.

Hi Impulsive - I have been following off and on - but keeping very quiet. There is only one suggestion I have to make: Call the Harleys and get some professional counseling. I can't help but wonder why you have not done this yet. Thinking of you.<P>Leanna<BR>

I'm going to call the Hrley's soon. I've been thinking about it alot lately. I'm back in my bed because I've been having back pains on the couch. She said well we can switch off and on. So she went to work i slept in the bed thinking she would sleep on the couch. Well she came home and got in the bed with me. No snuggling, no real conversation just sleep. Tonigth I'll see maybe she'll sleep on the couch. Who knows. I don't see the turnaround here. The only positive I see is that she hasn't left yet. I don't get the status quo thing. Why waste time? Tons of small polite talk, no relationship talk, no pressure. She seems adamant that she does not want to be married. She has no desire toward sex or intamacy. She doesn't wan tto even try. So for the last time I'm going forward without looking back again. I'm sleeping in my bed. I'm not asking for sex, or any commitments. I'm not even talking to her anymore about us. If this things turns around it will be because she tried to make it work other then that I'm out of this situation. I said to her today that it blows me away that you were considering taking my boys away from me on Father's Day. She said she didn't know it was Father's Day this weekend. Just like she didn't remember our anniversary. Anyway it comes down to me backing off and getting on with my life minus my marriage as I want it.

Well today I snapped. Started the day very positive. She asked me to not work(rare) and go to a 6 yrs. old birthday party that the boys were invited to. We stopped at the Toy store picked out gifts fought with the boys about the importance of getting thier friend a gift and not thinking about themselves in the toy store. We went to the party at a putt putt and go cart arcade place. She went out of her way to be very distant. It drove me nuts. Cordial but very distant. I mean here we have a perfect opportunity to spend some family time having fun and experience some non-stress quality time. She went out of her way to be distant and cold in her very clever way. On the way home I said I understand now why you didn't want to invite me to the country with the boys. She gave me this look like she had no idea what I was talking about. When we got home she came into the bedroom and said what's the problem. I said you know your becoming very good at your "smiling distance routine" Just see how nice you can come across while acting as cold and distant as you can be. I told her you know what even steel wears out after a while and my patience are way past the breaking point. You don't want to be married well guess what Excuse my language but TUCK It. I quit. I mentioned how she came into the bedroom last night with a attitude about me being in the bedroom. I refuse to live my life like this one more minute. I'm not chasing or begging. I'm not leaving my bed or my house if she doesn't want to be married she has to poup or get off the pot. What a way to go into Father's Day. I told her the reason i was so upset was because i had expectations. I saw a perfect opportunity to bond as a family. She saw it as a opportunity to piss down my back and tell me it was raining. She knew exactly what i was talking about because she didn't and could'nt say a word. I reaching a point where I don't like her very much as a person. I'm starting to not like being around her. I don't have one word to say to her. You know almost 5 months of busting my hump to be a better person has got me no where with this woman. She does not want to be happy with me so I'm ignoring her from here out. She don't like it when i trying to convince her to save our marriage, then she doesn't like it when I stop talking to her. I'm damned if I do I'm damned if I don't. Yesterday i took a half a day off work to help her get around and get a key made for her new car. it's a stick and she doesn't know how to drive it so I sacrifice and ride all over town with her which i didn't mind, but then she turns around and invites me to this party and asks me to stay and then acts like I should be happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood. God know I'm frustrated and fe up at theis point. What else can you do after you done all that you can?

Dcope,<P>Surely you know in your heart that you aren't following a Plan A. Your posts show a clear cycle of following a manic Plan A then a depressive, LB phase. Have you consulted a physician? Your wife's number one complaint about you was your long depressed phase...I think it would be hard for her to trust you again if you don't take care of the mood problem.<P>Those are just my thoughts from reading your posts. I've posted it a few times but you've never responded. Good Luck!

dccope/impulsive:<P>i have been following your story for the past couple of weeks and after having gone through all 34 pages of posts, I have the following advice for you:<P>YOU MUST LET HER GO bud<P>I know this is not what you want to hear but at some point you have to stand up for yourself and not allow her to walk all over you ! <P>It seems to me that you have done all you can to show this woman how much she means to you and how much you love her - it has not been reciprocated nor does it seem like it will - quit wasting your time on somebody who isn't worth it and go find yourself a woman who will honor, respect and love you for who you are! A woman you can be proud of!<P>I don't mean to sound harsh with my tone but I feel I have standing to speak on this issue. I too have been going through something similar. I have been with my wife for ten years (married for the last four). I love my wife more than anything in this world. I have never been physically abusive to her, I have never once given her reason over ten years to doubt my faithfulness to her, I am a good provider (ie. professional), and I don't have any drinking/gambling/drug problems.<P>What I did do wrong was not pay enough attention to my marriage the first couple of years. Basically, my wife's emotional needs were being unment not intentionally on my part but simply because I did not know any better. Anyway, to make a long story short, my wife asked me for a divorce over the past holiday season (ie. xmas). It hit me like a ton of bricks! After reeling the first couple of months ( begging, pleading, crying) I got a hold of myself and began PLan Aing my A** off! <P>I believe in my heart that I have done everything humanely possible to show another human being contrition, remorse, unconditional love, and undying commitment to them to last a lifetime. <P>Unfortunately, it has been to no avail. My wife is so far withdrawn and so set on her decision. She has looked me in the eye with a cold hearted viciousness and told me that she does not love me anymore and wants out. I am the only man she's ever been with since she was 18 years old (currently 29).<P>Bottom line - good riddance. I have had it. I will not be anybody's doormat. We are all human and make mistakes. I was man enough to acknowledge them. <P>I too, like yourself, have hung on my wife's every word and action the past six months looking for any sign of hope. I have basically been led on and played like a finely tuned instrument. She simply was running out the clock waiting for me to get frustrated and leave so she wouldn't be the bad guy. <P>Impy, life is too short too waste away on this woman. The world is teeming with beautiful woman that have more character (than your wife and mine). Anyone walking out on a marriage and their vows is a liar and a quitter in my book. That's a simple fact. Call me old-fashioned but that's just the way I feel about it.<P>Commend yourself for giving it your best shot on saving your marriage, like yourself for who you are, and tell her to go to hell.<P>Am I bitter? Your damn right! Who gave these women the right to pull the rug out from somebody's life and turn their whole world around to the degree they have? <P>Good luck my friend<P><BR>-Ace

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I refuse to live my life like this one more minute. I'm not chasing or begging. I'm not leaving my bed or my house if she doesn't want to be married she has to poup or get off the pot ... reaching a point where I don't like her very much as a person. I'm starting to not like being around her. I don't have one word to say to her. You know almost 5 months of busting my hump to be a better person has got me no where with this woman. She does not want to be happy with me so I'm ignoring her from here out. She don't like it when i trying to convince her to save our marriage, then she doesn't like it when I stop talking to her. ... God know I'm frustrated and fe up at theis point. What else can you do after you done all that you can?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, what you don't do is get someone to fall back in love with you by insisting that they act like they're in love with you. <P>And you don't get them to fall back on love with you by chewing them out when they don't toe your line.<P>And you don't do it by violating their sense of their personal spaces (and women feel far more proprietary about the marital home than men--regardless of who is paying for it). <P>If you want to be a failed-marriage statistic and have your kids grow up with a broken home, just keep doing what you're doing. If not, back off the pressure and return to being steady and dependable and all those other Boy Scout traits you took on. Keep getting in shape. Keep taking care of your kids. And keep out of your wife's face, except where her misbehavior is something that shouldn't be seen by the kids, and even then you want to respectfully ask for her to do what she needs to do. <P>In time, she will make her own decision. You can't make it for her. Your job is to influence that decision. Influence comes only when you have a credible carrot or stick to offer (preferably a carrot, especially at first), but influence is diminished to the extent one overplays one's hand.<P>If you were childless, the two of you might very well give up and go your separate ways. But that's not the case. So give her the time and space to realize it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She went out of her way to be very distant. It drove me nuts. Cordial but very distant. I mean here we have a perfect opportunity to spend some family time having fun and experience some non-stress quality time. She went out of her way to be distant and cold in her very clever way. On the way home I said I understand now why you didn't want to invite me to the country with the boys. She gave me this look like she had no idea what I was talking about. When we got home she came into the bedroom and said what's the problem. I said you know your becoming very good at your "smiling distance routine" Just see how nice you can come across while acting as cold and distant as you can be. ...I told her the reason i was so upset was because i had expectations. I saw a perfect opportunity to bond as a family. She saw it as a opportunity to piss down my back and tell me it was raining. She knew exactly what i was talking about because she didn't and could'nt say a word.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry, impulsive, but I just don't believe that your wife is being "clever" or looking for opportunities to put you in whatever you think she wants to be your place. And I think you are probably making a mistake to draw conclusions about what your wife knows or understands on the basis of her silence. There are way too many alternative explanations for that.<P>Yeah, the reason you were upset was because you had expectations. What have we told you about that?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Yesterday i took a half a day off work to help her get around and get a key made for her new car. it's a stick and she doesn't know how to drive it so I sacrifice and ride all over town with her which i didn't mind, but then she turns around and invites me to this party and asks me to stay and then acts like I should be happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know, impulsive, I suspect that the reason your wife acted like you should be "happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood" was that she really <I>thought</I> that you would be "happy and honored to be in the same neighborhood". To me, it looks as though your wife was making an effort to reach out to you: she <I>actually requested</I> that you be included in family activities. Unfortunately, when your wife made this tentative overture, you suddenly and unreasonably expected a breakthrough experience. To you, your wife's effort seemed miniscule; but to her, the effort may have seemed monumental.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She does not want to be happy with me so I'm ignoring her from here out. She don't like it when i trying to convince her to save our marriage, then she doesn't like it when I stop talking to her. I'm damned if I do I'm damned if I don't.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why do you persist in thinking that this is all about you? You're not the only one in turmoil over the situation. Your wife is not happy, <I>period</I>. She's suspicious, defensive, and frightened when you pursue her; and she's lonely, hurt, and frightened when you withdraw from her. The rest of the time she's confused and ambivalent. <I>Your wife</I> is damned if you do and damned if you don't, and she's also damned if <I>she</I> does and damned if <I>she</I> doesn't.<BR>

Married 2, Manic? Me? You think? Yes I have been very manic and that is because I'm a very emotional person and I'm dealing with a very emotional issue. My marriage. I'm so frustrated i don't know what to do. <P>I'm really at a point where I don't know what else to do. My counseler told me it may be time to read the writing on the wall. It may be time for me to move on with my life. I slept in the bed Sat. night. Sunday morning I asked the wife for a Father's DAy present of Sex. She said we'll talk about it when you get back from church. When I got back she said that she understands my need for sex, but that she can't be there for me that way. She said that she wants me to go out and find someone to have sex with because she can't be there for me that way. She said she was dead serious. I have never heard of such a thing before. It told me that she is really emotionally divorced already. I don't know why I'm still here. I can't win. If I pressure her she runs. If i give her space she just enjoys the distance between us. There is nothing I can do at this point but deal with the reality that my marriage is most likely over.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>There is nothing I can do at this point but deal with the reality that my marriage is most likely over. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think that's the case. You can live simply and perform steadily. You can, without unnecessary drama, recognize that your situation is far less intolerable than many that people around the world accept without complaint, even when they know their lives could be better. That's not to say that you martyr yourself--being in a home with your children is far from martyrdom. <P>Right now, she has not reached a point where the economics would allow her to move out. Having not reached that decision point, she has not thought through <I><B>all</I></B> of the implications--sadly, she may in fact <I>act</I> without having thought them all through. What that means to you is that you continue to Plan A ... unless and until she moves out. And for some period of time thereafter. It means you do not make demands on her as wife and helpmate, but that you do not fail to request from her that she fulfill her parental role, and that she take on her fair share of the household expenses as she generates income (regardless of her desire to accumulate a nest egg for herself). <P>Your guiding principle should be the story of Goldilocks, which is really about a quest for the <I>Aristotelian Mean</I>, a concept which today goes by the names balance and sustainability. After all, if the Earth bounced all over the place, do you think the moon could orbit it? As you steady yourself, she will either stay or go, but at least you two will neither collide nor fling yourselves away impetuously. Cold and distant ... clingy and demanding ... you're driving her and yourself nuts.<P>None of us are sure what will steady you. And we're not in your counseling sessions. Your counselor may want you out of a painful situation. That's natural, and understandable. Here on this board there is a bias toward mending, not rending. We think not just of the individual, but of his spouse and children. While it's OK to mentally prepare yourself for the worst, we think the psychological returns will justify the investment of both allowing her to be the one to call it a day, and putting in the effort to remove any justification for her doing so. But that can only be the case if you are able to find balance and focus. <P>But if you can't do that now, what makes you think things will get any better when you and your wife have split up? Do whatever it takes to find that balance and focus for yourself now.

Sis, That was by far one of your better posts. I really appreciate it and it is totally appropriate today. I've decided that I have been to demanding and, I have bounced back and forth between Distant and cold and Demanding and needy. Neither of these are attractive or do anything towards motivating a withdrawn spouse to try to save a marriage. In fact i have given her more ammunition to think that this marriage is hopeless. I have decided to try a flawless plan A. There is a possibility that it's to little to late but while working today I had a breakthrough thought. She was patient and loyal and put up with alot do to the fact that she loved me. I have been saying for months that I love her. Then why haven't I been able to muster up the patience and dedication that she showed while I was in the Twilight Zone? So maybe it's going to take her alot longer to come to the realiztion that I am a great father and can be a tremendous husband. I have a golden opportunity because she is still in the house with me. So any feedback would be greatly appreciated as I'm off to a successful Plan A.

Well I was off on a attempt towards the flawless Plan A when my mother happened. While I was at church this morning my mother called and laid a pretty heavy guilt trip on the wife about her not wanting to try to save the marriage. I ws not prepared for this. The wife was very upset. She felt like I was making her out to be the bad person of the relationship. It turned into a relationship talk. I basically steered clear of talking about us, and focused on the fact that those were my mother's thoughts not mine. The wife seemed upset that I put her through hell, I come to peace with the Lord and develop a very close relationship with God and she feels bitter from her lack optimism, and feels resentment towards my abundance of positivity. She also seems very upset with my roller coaster emotions over the last few months. One day i say one thing the next day i feel another way and my actions contradict what i said yesterday. I'm starting to feel like the less i say the better off I am.

HELP!!! I don't know what else to do. The wife came home from work crying I asked what was wrong. She said nothing she don't want to talk, while fresh tears are pouring down her face. I sat on teh edge of her bed and tried to comfort her. She started in with how unhappy she is. How she just wants to be free. I told her I understood that she was in a depression. I wa there for 3 years. I told her how I didn't understand the effect it had on her until now. I now see what it is to see a loved one in pain and get pushed aside or locked out. I told her that she can and will be happy and she basically said not with me and i said that is hurts to see herin pain. Then she said this was a perfect examplle of me not especting and listening to her. I said how? she said that she said she didn't wan tot talk and i pushed and pushed until he talked. She felt disrespected. I am at a loss. I see the woman I love in ovious pain and crying I try to be compassionate and loving and I'm still a jerk!! WHen i wasn't caring I was wrong now I'm loving and sensitive and attentive and she pushes me out and says I'm disrespectful because it breaks my heart to see her in pain and I can't fix it or comfort her. I'm starting to think that me being here is more trouble then it's worth. She seems miserable with my presence. Should I leave? Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. What do I do?? She her crying and say ok you don't want to talk and walk away with her crying her eyes out? I need help! I thought I was on my way to a flawless plan a but her withdrawal and depressionis so severe i can't get any traction. Could this be to far gone at this point?? Feedback please, I'm at a croosroads.

You can try to give her the gift of clarity.<P>1. Feelings are not wrong to have, although they may be wrong to act on. <P>2. She is not trapped, and never has been. The reason she <I>feels</I> trapped is that there are things she wants about being in her home with her children and husband, and to leave immediately would deprive her of them. She has also stated a choice which she was not immediately able to carry out. That statement didn't just change her, it changed <I>you</I>. The change in <I>you</I> is gradually erasing the conditions that brought her to her decision in the first place. But when she makes a commitment, she feels compelled to follow through. She needs to know there is no scorekeeper up in the heavens moving her name to the "Idiot" column if she changes her mind (quite the opposite). Her <I>friend</I> may do so, but that is <I>false friendship</I>. No true friend would mock a <I>moral choice</I>.<P>3. Her friend's free-and-easy lifestyle comes at a cost, which is not immediately evident to your wife, because your wife is only tasting it, not eating it and having to digest it and seeing it gather in folds on her waistline. Perhaps your wife should make a list of the things she <I>has</I> that her friend does <I>not</I> have; and then see how many of those things she can expect to still have after she leaves.<P>4. You do her no disrespect by getting her to talk. When you got married, you pledged to be there for each other <I>whatever may come</I>, and one of the conditions included in that pact is that at times one or both of you might be less adequate than average at upholding some part of the pact. Each of you has a right at any time to ask for better than they're getting, or to offer more than is wanted; although of course <I>coercion</I> is out of the question.<P>What you saw was not <I>withdrawal</I>, it was <I>conflict</I>. You gotta go there and keep going there to get this marriage back together. Going there without a third party mediating is perilous at best, but you can't <I>coerce</I> her to allow that; so you'll have to do the best you can until you can reach agreement on having someone else involved.<P>One nice thing is that she really <I>hated</I> the "guilt trip" your mother supposedly laid on her. People who are pursuing a bad course typically <I>resent</I> the involvement of third parties. Their resentment is typically in direct proportion to the extent of their own sense that their feelings are driving them to do something <I>wrong</I>. Who is happier to go before a judge, thief or victim?<P>This is not to say that your mother ought to make a habit of that. Nor should you glory in what your mother did. You were right to say that those were your mothers thoughts. You can afford to be (and <I>must</I> be) much more understanding. Just tell your wife that regardless of what happens in the future, <I>you</I> will be more careful to hide how much you hurt from your mother.<P>When you're doing the right thing and you're criticized for it by her, she is just testing the new you. If she really hates what you're doing, she'll stand up and walk out. <P>When you find yourself back in <I>conflict</I> and it hurts like hell, remember what is going on ... it is <I>sparring</I>, where you prove what you've got. You're wearing each other out, not going for the knockout punch. You're proving you can give and take. You're proving that you will not be defensive and block the deserved blows, you will let them through even though they hurt you. Your <I>vulnerability</I> is part of what she needs to see. <P>Stay the course. Regain the dream for both of you. <P>P.S. -- Has she been to see a doctor about <I>her</I> mood?

No she has not been to a doctor about her moods. So your saying that what we went through last night was conflict? Conflict is a good thing at this point? She has made some comments like "I'm going to be here until the kids are grown miserable, because you won't give up and let me go." Or she has said things like her entire life has been a struggle and she has resigned to never be happy again. When I hear those type of statements I get discouraged but do I understand you right in that your saying that she is in conflict and that's a positive? She woke up this morning happy and chipperry. I on the other hand had to pray myself the stregth to be happy today because her miserableness sent me on a emotional downer. I guess the other thing that makes me think that all is not lost is that she is still here. Isn't it true that when women are truly sick and tired they leave no matter what? Should I look at her stioll being here as a positive or not? Is the longer she stays put increase the likelyhooh of reconciliation or is that just wishful thinking?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She woke up this morning happy and chipperry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Why don't you make the charitable assumption that her mood was the result of her receiving <I>attention</I> from you, despite her protestations. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I on the other hand had to pray myself the stregth to be happy today because her miserableness sent me on a emotional downer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Well, yes, right now she is <I>so</I> needy that when you <I>give</I> to her it may seem to suck all the life right out of you. That's no reason to stop. The <I>exact</I> reason she didn't want to have that talk is that she might <I>connect</I> with you, and might later find through further betrayal that the connection was false. You gained a step, but it took so much out of you that you're ready to slip back. Don't. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess the other thing that makes me think that all is not lost is that she is still here. Isn't it true that when women are truly sick and tired they leave no matter what? Should I look at her still being here as a positive or not? Is the longer she stays put increase the likelyhood of reconciliation or is that just wishful thinking? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's positive if you make an opportunity of it. Lincoln said people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be. Now, he may not have been correct back then, but I assure you the pharmacological industry would adopt that, with only a slight, obvious twist. I'm off on a tangent here. The point is to keep on the good side of the ledger, keep making progress, keep avoiding pitfalls. <P>If you hear talk about her being there, miserable, until the children are grown, it's time to take some tentative steps toward finding out what things would <I>mitigate</I> that misery that you are not now doing for her. In other words, what's missing in her life that <I>Ms. Bad Influence</I> has been delivering while you're not around? You can't approach this question very directly, unfortunately. I'm sure you'll develop some strategies for finding out. Then start finding ways to deliver. Housework and good behavior and no sexual pressure and no pressure for things to be "all right" is not the entire puzzle. There's more you must do, and you're not only not doing it now, you don't even know about it; and even when you do know it, you'll have to develop a strategy to get it around, over, under or through her defenses. Sorry, bub, it's just another thing you need to tackle. <P>As to you not letting her go, you need to make it clear to her that you don't <I>want</I> her to go, but she has <I>never</I> been without her ruby slippers. Its just that she loses a lot if she goes. And if you have your way, you'll make her life less of a struggle, and you'll put so many more good things on the "stay" side of the ledger that the decision to <I>go</I> will be less and less attractive. You can tell her that you believe the fact that you've been doing that is the reason that she's still there. You could have blown it a lot worse than you did after you got the first talk. <P>Ask her to keep a little tiny corner in her heart for the possibility that you two could be good again. Tell her you will fill it up until she has to allocate more space to it. And more. And more. She just needs to trust you and allow you to do that. <P>You are her <I>friend</I>. Even if she <I>leaves</I> you are her <I>friend</I>. Because of the children, neither of you can afford to be otherwise. Keeping that firmly in mind now will help you a lot in knowing which way to go. And remember, friend is not synonym for servant, or lackey, or yes-man, or anything else. A friend will tell you when you're wrong, and won't aid you in doing wrong.