These are beautiful posts from Sisyphus! Amen. Take this to heart and be steadfast, Imp.<P>She gets a lot out of her crying and venting. You seem to be handling the state of conflict quite adeptly, just don't take it to heart and choose to depress just because she expressed her dark side! Set your sights high and keep helping her work out her feelings and inner conflicts. <P>Thanks Sis!

Well the wife told me this morning that she is "Talking" to another man. I asked how long and she said it's been a couple of months now. She says his name is Dave and he is a musician presumably where she waitresses. She said she did not tell me before because I would still want what I want and I still would not let her go. She reinterated that she does not want to be married to me but she added a twist. She says that now she is at a point where she has not given up on the idea of being happy, and having a future wuth someone else. I told her that everything I have been doing to save our marriage was based on the facts that she said<BR>1. That there was no OM<BR>2. That she didn't want a relationship with anyone.<BR>3. she would never end our marriage by being involved with someone else.<P>I was surprisingly calm and all I told her was that would give her her freedom now. I will not pursue her anymore. She asked would I leave or should she? I said I'm not leaving my house and I plan on fighting for my kids. <P>This shines a whole new light on the entire situation. I refuse to continue to try and save a marriage with someone that is emotionally involved with someone else. She says she doesn't even know his last name and that it's just talk. She says they have not been intimate. He is in the middle of a divorce also. She says this has been going on for 2 months. Exactly the amount of time since our last sexual encounter. So she says she's leaving. I have done my best. I've changed and I've maintained those changes. I have a wife that I have tried to love and support through this most difficult time and this is how she repays me. I can't go any further like this. I'm going back to my bed and back to my life without my wife. I'm going to be the best Man of God I can be. I'm going to be the best father I can be. I will be as friendly as possible to her, but I can't go any further. This is beyond plan A and withdrawal this is a emotional affair whether she considers herself married or not. I'm not going to tolerate it. I won't stoop to her level of immorality and get involved with anyone.

If your wife is telling the truth, impulsive, she may not be involved in an emotional affair at all. She doesn't even know this guy's last name!<P>I suspect that your wife may be testing your boundaries, and this "other man" <I>may</I> just be a ruse to get you to "let her go". If she can get <I>you</I> to call it quits, it's much easier for her to believe that she has been relieved of any responsibility to invest herself in the marriage again.<P>You may have played right into her hands here...<P>The really scary thing is that if she <I>isn't</I> actually guilty of an affair, her increasing efforts to distance herself suggest that she might easily enter into an actual affair for no other reason than to drive you away.<P>She will not find happiness on that path...<BR>

GDP,<BR>There is a part of me that doesn't believe her at all. I agree with your assessment because before she told me she said so If I'm seeing someone then you'll let me go. I don't understand this whole let me go thing. She has the ability to get up and leave at any time. The only thing I have done is try to convince her to give the marriage a try when she intiates relationship talks. I'm not playing into her hand. I'm not leaving my house mainly because there will never come a time when her or anybody else will be able to say that I gave up on my marriage and children. My boys will never grow up and say Dad moved out, and gave up on us because he couldn't hack the heat in the kitchen. What this has done is put me in a more stable mindframe for a non interrupted Plan A. Now I don't have any desire to talk relationship or try to convince her to give the marriage a try. All I'm going to do at this point is pour into my children and give them the best life I can provide. My focus is off my wife 100%. I love her and I always will but I'm finally convinced I can't force a round peg into a square hole. I will continue to pray for her and our marriage and children but this trying to convince her to try again is out of the question. Maybe me getting my life together and having such a wonderful relationship and fun with the boys will make her feel left out and miss the good parts of our marriage. I put my foot down last night about the bed. I was not trying to over step her boundaries I was just letting her know that my sacrificing comfort to try to make her happy and let life be as easy as possible for her while she watches me twist in the wind is over. I told her I'm sleeping in my bed, I'm not asking you to leave the bed but if you want to sleep on the couch by all means do so. She thought about it for a while and decided to sleep in the bed. No victory just a message that bending over backwards to no avail is over.

Well, it's time to determine whether this Dave exists.<P>If he does, a friend of yours needs to go to him and tell him how you are trying to fix the marriage that you screwed up and assure that your kids grow up in an intact home. Dave needs to know that what he's doing is natural and understandable, but he's not helping this particular situation and he should butt out. <P>That's assuming that this isn't more than you're being told. Right now you think it's less than meets the eye, but it could also be more. <P>Staying in your own bed is your <I>Taker</I> at work. I know your back hurts, and I know you're wife is in the wrong; but I don't think this is the moment to yank back all the slack you've given her. Now that there is an affair of some sort out in the open, you <I>do</I> respectfully ask for your wife to choose. But allowing her to maintain her boundaries while she makes that choice will remove an irritant that might cause her to make the <I>wrong</I> choice. On the other hand, I think you need to ask her to spend some time thinking about what example she will be setting for her children. If they grow up in a broken home, they're likely to emulate that pattern.<P>This might also be a good time to get <I>Surviving an Affair</I>. <P>This turn of events makes me <I>so</I> angry. I know it shouldn't. dCope/impulsive has so far done just about everything we can expect of a husband in a tough situation, and <I>this</I> is the thanks he gets. I feel like sending the CD-RWs to my XW's boss just as an act of solidarity.<P>But wrath avails nothing. I'm doing my best to choose healing over hate. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited June 26, 2001).]

I don't have the clarity to speak right now, but I don't think it's a bad thing for Imp to be back in the bed. He didn't do it to try to get close to her. He has shown that he will sacrifice for her. I think Imp handled it in a good way and as long as he doesn't initiate sex I think it might as well be a good thing. Let her leave the bed if she is uncomfortable. I think Imp has a good perspective right now. Imp did not try to control her or tell her what to do and he is still respecting her, he did not move back into the bed because he was angry or had an attitude--and from his words it sounds like this came across. She can make distance if she cares to. He has respected her and will continue to.<P>HM

dcope/Impulsive, it might also be time to visit the "Just Found Out" and the "Divorcing/Divorced" boards. The latter not because you are divorcing or going to divorce, but because the people who hang out there are somewhat more attuned to marriages that are in more extreme situations than the "Emotional Needs" folks are. Had I found either of these much more active boards rather than "Why Women Leave Men", (which is a comparative backwater), I would have received a lot more advice and support.

I'm sorry to hear this, Imp.<P>The cold reality of the statistics from watching this board for a year is that when a affair is voluntarily revealed it is usually played down as recent and non-physical, whereas it is often longer term and intimate. I hope that isn't the case here, but it fits the pattern of your W's behavior better than a sudden recent EA.<P>Either way, if she is emotionally attached you are facing a much longer road to recovery, and it could be that you simply do not have the gas in the tank. I'm reminded of several other cases here where the betrayed spouse exhausted their emotional energy and lovebank balance with 6 months of fruitless Plan A on a teflon spouse clandestinely engaged in a heavy affair.<P>I'm left wondering whether the best road in these cases is to force the truth/confrontation/separation from OP/ very early on. <P>I hope that the truth here is merely that your W has formed a friendship with someone going through a similar problem, and is perhaps playing it up in order to get a reaction out of you. I suppose that is plausible as well, although her desire for a "reaction" is saddening.<P>My thoughts and prayers are with you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>... it could be that you simply do not have the gas in the tank.<P>I'm left wondering whether the best road in these cases is to force the truth/confrontation/separation from OP/ very early on. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He's been going to the gas station every Sunday morning. If she's revealing the affair in an effort to finish the marriage, chances are the paramour is getting <I>impatient</I>. Now that it's out in the open ... it can die a natural death. <P>She's been willing to stay and be miserable. I think she should be held to the former, while the latter is mitigated.<P>dCope/Impulsive has plenty to answer for ... now the score <I>may</I> be more or less even (depends on what has really happened). <P>Nonetheless, this should not be the death of the marriage. What can these two people teach their kids about character, and about its redemption?<P>

Hopefully some of you guys can help me figure out what is going on here. I'm as lost as a person can be. My wife came to me yesterday morning and closed the bedroom door and wanted to talk. I just listened because at this point I really don't have anything to say in regards to our marriage. She said that she owed me honesty. She said that the person Dave that she told me about the day before was totally made up. She says that she just said it to hurt me like I've hurt her in the past, and to see what type of reaction she would get. I never said a word I just listened. She said that she has not been engaged in any conversations with anyone about anything. When I came home from work and did the lawn work, and cleaned the house I went to the bathroom to shower. My wife knocked on the door and very sheepishly asked me Why are you still going to that marriage builders website if you don't give a $hit anymore? I was totally confused. I said what are you talking about. She got real close to me and said well you said yesterday that you don't give a crap no more and I'm trying to figure out why you would still be going to the MB website. It was weird but it was almost like a come on! It was like she was testing my resolve. I said I never said I I didn't care. I said your the one that didn't want the marriage remember? She acted like she didn't know what I was talking about. So after I showered I laid in the bed and she went to her sexy undies after her shower and just laid on top of the bed seductively putting on lotion and bady oil. I just watched tv because I felt like I was back in my bed not to come on to her sexually but to reestablish my boundaries. Finally I reached over and whispered in her ear. I never said I didn't care I will always care and I will always love you. She seemed very receptive to my touch all of a sudden. I'm lost. It seemed like she was testing to see if I was serious about the distance I was placing in between us. She seemed really bothered by it. It seemed like she was trying to see if I would melt. I did. Should I have? The wife seemed bothered by the fact that she lied to me about seeing someone. She seems confused again. I really don't have the gas for this roller coaster. I was settling into letting go and she sensed it and reached out, and I reached back. Was it a mistake? Can someone please tell me what is going on here? I wish I would have asked her do you want me to give a crap? It was obvious that she wanted me to care. On a brighter note my 15 yr. old daughter came to me today and said Dad, you seem like a different person. She hasn't seen me in a year. Lives in Virginia with the ex wife. She said you seem so calm and mellow, and nothing seems to upset you like before when everything upset you. I told her thank you but that's the God in me. She said well I like it. The wife also commented that I seem to be very into my daughter. While I was going through my depression that was one of the major Love Busters. I didn't have a real connection with my daughter while she lived with us. I think to push for my marriage at this point would be a mistake. I think I should give her space and continue to be unplugged in emotionally because that way I won't expend any precious energy right now. The last 2 days were the first time I talked to her freely about any and everything except our marriage. I need feedback what is going on? What should I do?

Now she's back to her distant routine! She came out to check my response seen my response would be positive and then back to the same old cold, distant routine. This is starting to seem more and more like a game. What is going on??????????????????????????

What is happening is that you're doing your best to stop her oscillations. If your <I>active</I> efforts are precisely correct, they slow down, but if you're not precisely correct, you can <I>increase</I> the oscillations. One thing that helps no matter what is to reduce <I>tension</I>. <P>I would see <I>rapid</I> oscillations as a sign that the entire matter is approaching resolution. Or let's say the matter <I>could</I> be resolved if handled correctly. <P>This is another chance for you to show steadfastness and not inject additional instability into the system. If you do so, you should gain a step here. I'm not saying you won't go through the whole thing again with a different level of her objections to letting you back into her heart. But you seem closer to the summit, and the gambits to throw you off seem increasingly more desperate and blindly flailing. <P>She's running out of ideas. And when she's completely out of them, she will be faced with the stark choice of breaking up her family based on a past that has been atoned for and is unlikely to be repeated, or staying put. <I>You</I> will have <I>proven yourself</I> ... whatever she does will be solely on <I>her</I> shoulders. <P>Time is now on <I>your</I> side, while hers is <I>running out</I>.

Sis,<BR>My steadfastness is based in my determination not to entertain anymore of this unstability. I love her. I love her deeply but we are at different places right now. I am in a place where I want to save my marriage and build a wonderful life with this woman and my children together under ther same roof living in such a way that pleases God. She is at a place where not only can't she get out of the past but she doesn't want to get out of the past and work to save our marriage. I am at a place where all I want to do is love, nuture, respect, honor, and cherish her. She is at a place where she wants to say things to hurt me just to see my reaction, and enjoy watching me suffer. I can't continue to hope for a miracle with someone that in such a negative frame of mind. Even if my past contributed to her getting in that negative frame of mind. I wake up every morning with praise of God in my heart, and wishing nothing but blessings and favor for everyone, and every situation. She says she wants to be happy but sabatoges our chances at happiness by continually underminding any and all of my attempts to EARN a place back into her heart. I have no choice but to continue to pray for God to soften her heart so she can first allow him in so that she can then allow me in. In the meantime I have to back all the way out of the equation in regards to her and I. It's just to emotionally taxing. If down the line she comes around and becomes willing to save our family fine, but in the meantime I can't continue to pour all of my energy and hope in a situation that seems hopeless. I will continue to be a friend and listen to her thoughts and concerns. I will help her any way I can to make her life as easy and happy as possible because we have children here that deserve to have stability, happiness, and a way of life that's fitting of there preciousness. I must also focus on my happiness and right now the main source of my happiness is my relationship with God and my ability to wake up every morning under the same roof as my children. I love the ability to pour into them everyday and develop the type of relationship with them that I didn't have with my father because he took the easy way out and hit the road rather then fighting for his family like I've been trying to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She is at a place where not only can't she get out of the past but she doesn't want to get out of the past and work to save our marriage.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Her actions indicate that she is confused and ambivalent, <I>not</I> that she is dead set against your marriage.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She is at a place where she wants to say things to hurt me just to see my reaction, and enjoy watching me suffer. I can't continue to hope for a miracle with someone that in such a negative frame of mind.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you really believe that that's your wife's intent, then you have a negative frame of mind yourself. Your wife is not hurting you because she's sadistic; she's hurting you because she sees a pre-emptive strike as the only way to keep herself from being hurt.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>This is starting to seem more and more like a game. What is going on??????????????????????????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's not a game. It's a dance: the "Dance of Distance". Mary Ann Klausner and Bobbie Hasselbring describe it in their book "Aching for Love: The Sexual Drama of the Adult Child":<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Described as the "rejection-intrusion relationship dynamic" by Family Systems Therapist Augustus Napier in 1978, it involves one partner (the "rejector") feeling suffocated, stifled, and imprisoned by the relationship while the other partner (the "intruder") feels rejected, abandoned, and seeks more emotional closeness.<P>Both partners in such a situation are suffering psychological pain. The stifled partner wants free of the confines of the relationship. The abandoned partner wants reassurance that the relationship will continue. As one retreats, the other chases and clutches more tightly. Each partner blames the other for the problem. "If she'd only give me space." "If he'd only be closer." Both believe that if the other would change, the relationship would improve.<P>Neither partner realizes each is reenacting old childhood conflicts. Intrusive partners seek "oneness" with their partner - based upon the childhood desire for closeness with the parents. They want a relationship in which there are no boundaries between them. Their own identity is based totally on being <I>in relationship with</I> their partner, rather than on a separate identity of self.<P>While intruders want to blur appropriate and healthy relationship boundaries, rejectors strive to limit intimacy by clearly marking off relationship boundaries. Rejectors often divide space, time, materials, activities, hobbies, and even friends into "mine" and "yours." They fear a loss of their identity if they become too close in a relationship. Some rejectors maintain their distance by participating in secretive sexual affairs.<P>To the outsider, it often appears that the intruders are desperately trying to achieve emotional intimacy and the rejectors are running terrified from emotional contact. The truth is that <I>both want closeness and both fear intimacy</I>.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The reason it's called a dance is because of the tendency to switch roles. If the intruder gets too discouraged at being constantly rebuffed, his fear of intimacy (i.e. his fear of being hurt) overcomes his desire for closeness, and he will back off. This alarms the rejector, who is afraid of losing the relationship. Her desire for closeness suddenly asserts itself, overcoming her fear of intimacy. She becomes the pursuer, and the role reversal is complete.<P>Of course, once the former rejector is assured that the relationship is <I>not</I> at risk, she has a tendency to revert back to her habitual rejector role, which in turn pulls the former intruder back into his habitual intruder role.<P>Sound familiar?<BR>

Behavior of this type is also catalogued under "approach/avoidance" ... there's something about the person you want, and something driving you away. The easiest example would be a skittish little dog trying to get the courage to approach you and take a milk bone. <P>It's a sign that <I>trust</I> must be rebuilt. That means there must <I>never again</I> be a negative consequence from her <I>approach</I> behavior, and <I>avoidance</I> must not cause pursuit -- that would be frightening. <P>Slow, deliberate, nonthreatening movements are the order of the day. The size, tastiness and number of treats must also be multiplied.

Hey, Sisyphus, he asked what was <I>going on</I>, he didn't ask what he should <I>do</I> about it... <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>She said that she owed me honesty. She said that the person Dave that she told me about the day before was totally made up.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't buy it. Was she lying then or is she lying now? Which scenario fits the evidence? Could she have told "Dave" about the conversation with you and he freaked out?<P>I think that an OM fits the evidence of her behavior better.<P>Why don't you call the restaurant and ask if a musical act with a guy named Dave plays there?<P>There are those here that thought this was a probablity long ago. I think that in cases where the truth is hidden for too long, the BS just runs out of lovebank reserves and Plan A energy, and that is where you are heading.<P>In your place, I would say that it is time to determine if there is a Dave or some other OM out there. It is time to flip all the cards over.<BR>

I'll echo Mike's suggestion. If you can't trust the admission, it's hard to trust the retraction. <I>If</I> there is an affair and dCope/Impulsive doesn't detect it now, she'll think him that much more the fool. If he detects it, there will be anger, but she and he can then get down to business seeing if the marriage can indeed survive. And <I>Dave</I> or whatever his name is ... can be leaned on a little so that he butts out. <P>Since the time that <I>Ms. Bad Influence</I> was identified, I've thought that perhaps <I>she</I> was the only lurking problem. Now ... it's up for grabs again. <P>People who have affairs often <I>want</I> to be caught. But that doesn't mean that if they do something silly like confessing, they don't attempt a retraction once they realize what they've done. <P>Now that it's happened, a little more detective work is definitely called for. And dcope/impulsive shouldn't forget that names and other details may have all been changed to protect the guilty.

Tonight the wife did by far the most disrespectful thing I could imagine. After my shower I put my gym shorts on and laid in the bed. She then went to take a shower. After taking her shower she laid naked in the bed next to me and seductively lotioned and oiled her body up right in front of her husband that hasn't had sex in 2 months. While she was struggling to lotion her back I touched her back to help and she stopped me immediately. No Thank you I got it. Making it very clear that she doesn't want me to touch her. I roll over to go to sleep. 10 minutes later my 15 yr. old daughter is in my room giving my wife a massage right next to me!!! My wife said they made a deal earlier in the day, my wife makwes her some pants and my wife gets a massage. My wife said the reason she wants a massage is because she hasn't had one in a long time. I was never a option. I was so taken back I just left the room. When they finished I cam back to the room and said over the last 5 months you have said some very hurtful things. However the episode you just pulled was by far the most disrespectful thing I've ever seen!! Your husband is laying right beside you, but rather then ask me you use my Daughter to massage you while I'm in the same bed??? She then said that is why we can't be together because every thing she say or do I analyze and turn it into something it's not. I'm over reacting. I looked at her and said "You came to me and said your not able to meet my sexual needs so please go out and sex someone else." "Then you come to me and tell me that your seeing someone else, then the next day say you were only lying to hurt me and see my reaction. Now you use my daughter to massage you in the same bed I'm in to show total disrespect and disdain, and I'm the unstable one here? It's my fault because alll I've done for 5 months is love, honnor, and respect you and all you've done is say NO, and try to hurt me. I just left the house but I'm tired. This is getting more and more crazy by the moment. The more I'm happy and loving and don't ask for sex, she pushes by doing things like tonight. Then she turns the tables to make me think, I'm over reacting or crazy. Would somebody please tell me if I'm overreacting or am I right in that the massage from my daughter was inappropriate? This could very well be the final straw!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by impulsive (edited June 28, 2001).]

I'm going to have to say that that is pretty darn callous and coldhearted of her. She lays next to you naked rubbing oil on... and then gets your daughter to rub her back. Knowing that you hadn't had SF in 5 months???<P>That's pretty bad. I think you handled it better than I would have. Then again I can't imagine my wife ever doing that to me (even though we have had some serious problems). I'm not sure what to tell you to do! If there is anything that would help it would be getting her to couseling so she can release this bitterness and anger at you.<P>Wilham