<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I told her that I can't hear one more time how much the past affects her because I can't do anything about the past. She won't get consuling or try to repair the damage so sitting here crying about last year and earlier is a waste of time.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Says you. She needs to do it to process her feelings, and you need to mirror those thoughts back in order for her to understand that she has been understood. She needs to know there will be no repeat. She needs to know that you will continue to do what you can to repair it. <P>And the fact that the damage you've done has made her less of a good person than she in fact could have been (or could be now) should give you pause, not make you throw in the towel when victory has come into view. <P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ... had she said she would think about saving our marriage a few months ago I would have thrown a huge bash. Now I'm not as excited because I've been struggling through life alone while she enjoys all the benefits of being married to me with out any of the responsibilities. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You should be happy with what you have done. Exhausted, yes; wanting to never go through that again, yes. But happy nonetheless. I'm sure she didn't shuck <I>all</I> her responsibilities, but those she did shuck ... were because of damage <I>you</I> created. If you've kicked the <I>hell</I> out of somebody, could they be expected to carry your suitcases, even assuming they were still willing? <P>She <I>is</I> getting counseling already, in the form of your daily example. It has led her to where she is now. Keep it up, be ready for the occasional setback, and keep coming here for the support you need (along with the occasional kick in the behind). <P>Remember, when you rebuild a wrecked city, it almost always comes out <I>better</I>--there are opportunities amidst the rubble.

Wow. Deja vu. Double post.<p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited August 08, 2001).]

Well it didn't take long for things to go from the frying pan into the fire. The last week as been hell on earth. Thursday night the wife asked if I was ok taking the kids while she goes to a concert. She said she was going to the concert and coming right home. I took the kids to opening night of the county fair and returned home about 3 hours after the concert was over. No wife. She come home at three in the morning drunk. I didn't say a world I just went back to sleep. The next morning I did my normal routine. Morning prayer, jog at the park and then I came home to shower and go to work. Wife still sleep. I came home early to take Granma and sister in law to the airport. Wife mets me at the curb yelling hesterically about her purse is missing. I told her I haven't seen it and she seemed convinced that I was not truthful. She went to my truck and proceeded to search it. I was pissed off but didn't let on just aggravated at the apparent lack of trust. I said to her as I was leaving I told her I felt like a criminal. After I came home she said you know what I realized today ? She said that no matter what she will always think the worse about me and she said she does not want to be in the marriage because she can't trust me. I told her that She wins and she has me exactly where she wants me. I don't want to married anymore either. She said fine well leave. I said I'm never leaving my house. That conversation ended somewhat abruptly because after that I left. I went to the mall later and bought her some Godiva Chocolate and Viky Secret agiain because I felt like just because she was being mean and rude to me was not a reason for me to lash out and spout my frustration. She was not nice when I gave her the presents. Saturday night she said she was working a private party. I took the boys to the park and came home. Once the boys were sleep I called oveer a sitter and went to the party to see if she needed a ride home since her car is off the road. I got to the party ant 12:00 and the host said she left already. I went to the bar she frequents and who do I run into but Ms. Bad influence. I asked her if I could talk to her, and we went outside and I said listen I don't have anything against you I'm just trying to save my marriage. She was gracious and said I'm not trying to hurt you but I think you marriage is over. We talked for about 15 minutes and then I went home. The wife came home at 3:30 am I asked where has she been and she lied and said she has been working the whole time. I asked her where were her shoes she says she was hot so she took them off and her bra too because the heat was awful. I then told her that I came by and she got off at 11:00. She denied it at first then got angry and said she does not owe me any explaintions or the truth or anything. I just said that's fine, and went to bed. Went to church and came home she was still in the bed at 3:30 in the afternoon the house that I cleaned spotless the night before destroyed and the keeps uncared for. I got the kids bathed and dressed and cleaned the house again and she woke up wanting to talk. I sat I listened and she said. She doesn't want to live together anymore and she doesn't want to move so she wants me to leave. I told her that I was not leaving my house or my kids and that the kids will never grow up to be able to say that their father left them. So she said that she was getting a legal separation tomm. and that she was taking the boys to live about 45 minutes away. I said I don't want that but I can't stop it either. She went into how am being selfish and all I care about is what I want and that I'm to blame for her taking the kids out of there home and away from her friends because I'm selfish. She also said that she has moved enough because of my lack of finacial support in the past. I told her that for 6 months now I have been guilt ridden by my past and have allowed her to beat me over the head with my short comings in the past long enough. I told her that I haven't been the best husband but I have always been a incredible dad. Those love me and have had great lives. They are happy and healthy and scared to death that we are going to divorce. My four yr. old told me two weeks ago while my wife and I were in the kitchen that we need to get married. He went through a phase at 3 where he would try to kiss my wife like he used to see me kissing her. She expained that you can't kiss anybody like that until you get married. So he equates kissing and affection with marriage. It dawneed on me that when he said we should get married that was his way of saying the we don't act married. He doesn't see ant affection or love between us. My nine year old is already hypersensitive to my leaving. He feels the handwriting on the wall. My wife told him to throw a piece of paper out and he immediately turned to her and said WHY IS DADDY MOVING OUT?? He missed heard her. SO basically I said listen here is what I will do. I will sleep on the couch, and I will not bother you about our marriage and I will not ask you to meet any of my sexual needs. But I am not leavign my house. She agreed but wanted to know for how long this was going to be. I told her that I don't make decisions without asking God what he wants me to do. I told her that I am doing what I think God wants me to do. She said that she thinks that God has someone else that is more religious in the wings waiting for me because she is so through with our marriage. <BR>Bottom line: I am back to square one. Things are not getting better. She is more resentful and more disrespectful then I have ever seen her. I'm confused because I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or postphoning the inevitible. I'm growing as a person but the marriage is sinking fast. It's like I'm as loving and accomidating as possible and she just craps on me daily. I've taken it for a long time now but it's wearing thin. I'm noow at a place where I don't rally want to live like this anymore. Should I move out? I think she might be seeing someone but I really don't care anymore. I didn't even ask. Her mind is made up and I'm just holding on for a miracle and it doesn't seem like it's coming.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I'm noow at a place where I don't rally want to live like this anymore. Should I move out? I think she might be seeing someone but I really don't care anymore. I didn't even ask. Her mind is made up and I'm just holding on for a miracle and it doesn't seem like it's coming. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Impulsive, you MUST consult a lawyer before moving out. Your W sounds like an incipient alcoholic, and does not sound like a caring, loving mother right now. PROTECT YOUR KIDS AT ALL COSTS!<P>You have to put your kids first here and determine what it will take to receive sole custody. That may mean putting in a restraining order preventing her from leaving the house with the kids - if you do think she is not currently competent to raise the kids right now.<P>I have a 4 year old too...so hard to see them affected by problems in their parents marriage!<P>I also urge you to take a visit to Al Anon (whether your marriage makes it or not!). Al Anon is very helpful to those who have to deal with anyone with a drinking problem. Not sure if your W has a problem or not or is only occasionally bingeing, but I wanted to let you know it's a great resource for help.<P>I'm saying a prayer for you, your W, and the kids...

Her mother and sister weren't allowed to see this side of her, were they? They don't know, do they? If she has to hide her behavior from them, that's alcoholism. If there's a pressure that builds while she's dry, that's alcoholism. <P>What's needed now is an <B>intervention</B>. Chevy Chase described it as a situation where your doctor, friends and family show up and tell you how badly your life is screwed up and cajole you into going into a facility where for some period of time other screw ups plus the staff tell you the same thing so that you stop using whatever you're using. <P>You need strength now, because you're going to have to begin assembling those close to her, and you're going to need to figure out what facility she needs to be in. And it's going to be hard on you and the kids. And there's no two ways about it. <P>It may work. It may not. But leaving it alone will simply result in her <I>leaving</I>. She will be endangering <I>your</I> children. She'll either wreck the car while they're in it, or simply never come home one night for one reason or another. <P>To save yourself, you've got to try to save her.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>The wife came home at 3:30 am I asked where has she been and she lied and said she has been working the whole time. I asked her where were her shoes she says she was hot so she took them off and her bra too because the heat was awful. I then told her that I came by and she got off at 11:00. She denied it at first then got angry and said she does not owe me any explaintions or the truth or anything.</B><P>Well, after all these months of Plan A struggling, it is now apparent to me that you are dealing with an affair. Maybe I'm wrong....maybe she is just out drinking late with pals, avoiding the uncomfortable home life, but I don't think so. Her drinking pal was alone at the bar.<P>This situation is analagous to a few others here, WOC and AGG come to mind, where it was unfortunate that the exposure of the affair was delayed so long, and the betrayed spouse's Plan A energy was sort of shot off into the air. And in the meantime their love died.<P>I think that in your situation, I would confront the affair head on, find out the truth, expose it to the air, to her family if need be. Harley says that affairs only thrive on secrecy, and die in the light of exposure. You need that process to start. I don't think it would be hard to get the truth out of her, or to find some evidence in email, cell phone records, or something. As I recall, she made an affair confession and then retracted it at one point, right? A musician at the restaurant where she works? That's definitely Clue Numero Uno.<P>I think that until the affair is over, you also have to figure out away to get into a Plan B living situation, because contact between you and the fogged wife is killing your love. I think the best scenario at this point is probably a separation, waiting out her fog, and hoping that she wakes up and turns back to you in 6 months or a year.<P>It sounds to me like you are the best caregiver to the kids, and you can make that argument, both to her and to the courts, in order to stay in the house and with the kids. But, failing that, and only if your lawyer covers the bases, you probably need to move out of you must in order to effect a Plan B. Let her try running the household on her own.<P>Anyway...time for some good legal advice, and time to go post on the JFO board and get some spot on advice. <P>Sorry for what you are going through....

Mike has a good alternate explanation. So it's one, or the other, or both. It may be the booze drives the affair, or the affair drives the booze ... Intervention will likely clear that up.

I agree. I definately think there is an affair going on here too. It is also crutial that you start gathering evidence about not only the affair, but also the drinking. If you have to fight for custody in the future you want all the paper evidence on your side when you try to save your kids from the drinking. Going to Al-Anon by yourself wouldn't be a bad idea either.<P>

The pages of this thread serve as a rough diary of events and timelines ... Admissible in court? Certainly not the whole thing ... but a redacted version would probably be allowed ... if for no other purpose than to refresh the memories of witnesses.

I've been following your struggle for a few months now, just lurking until now. It has inspired me and enlightened me in many ways to read it, and I can identify with some of what you have been through. Reading it has helped me make my own marriage better.<P>I just thought it might help you to know that there is a friendly soul and a listening ear out there. I wish you all the best.<P>Andrew<BR>

Whatever else is going on, impulsive, your wife is very clearly trying to get <I>you</I> to leave. The signs are classic. She wants <I>you</I> to be responsible for breaking your family apart so that she can absolve <I>herself</I> of that responsibility. And in the meantime her self-esteem, never all that great to begin with, is going through the floor. Your wife is headed for a crisis, impulsive. It doesn't look to me as if you have to worry about your current state of suspension going on indefinitely. Even if you stay your own course, <I>something's</I> going to give. My advice: for the sake of your <I>own</I> self-esteem, don't let that "something" be <I>you</I>.<P>You know, for a long time here I have been cautioned against assuming there is an affair. Occam's Razor did not demand such an explanation. However, while I would still caution against <I>assuming</I> anything, I'm afraid that I must now swing to the other side of the fence and say that I <I>strongly suspect</I> an affair.<P>If your wife does not owe you any explanations, then why would she lie about where she was? Maybe, just <I>maybe</I>, she thought you would hassle her about her drinking if she admitted to staying out after work, and she just didn't want to deal with that. But once you revealed that you knew she was lying, what further reason would she have for denial? It looks bad.<P>You questioned her about her shoes, and she volunteered an explanation for losing her bra too. Hmm. While the explanation is (barely) credible, it is still suspicious.<P>She wasn't with her known friend, so where was she?<P>She's threatening to move "about 45 minutes away". Why <I>there</I>? What's so special about the place she has picked out? Perhaps she has a particular roommate in mind, or someone she wants to live close to?<P>Yeah, I think it's time you find out exactly what's going on when your wife sneaks off. And I think it's time you consult a lawyer. <I>Don't</I> give your wife the chance to snatch your kids away from you. Find out what your options are with regard to a restraining order.<P>I don't believe that Plan A is incompatible with Tough Love. <I>First</I> you draw the lines. In this case, you are not going to abandon your home voluntarily, and you are not going to give up your kids without a fight. You hold firm to those lines without apologies. <I>Outside</I> the lines, you continue to behave with gentleness and compassion and - as far as it is possible - with respect.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>This situation is analagous to a few others here, WOC and AGG come to mind, where it was unfortunate that the exposure of the affair was delayed so long, and the betrayed spouse's Plan A energy was sort of shot off into the air. And in the meantime their love died.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><sigh>... well, even in the AGG and WOC cases, it didn't take as long as it took impulsive to uncover the affair... I think at this late stage the whole point is moot... . There is only so much time that these situations can continue before the marriage is DOA, and I think if you look back at this entire thread, that time has elapsed long ago...<P>AGG<BR><p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited August 13, 2001).]

AGG, who's to say whether this is an early stage or a late stage? And who signs the death certificate?<P>Hope is cruel, but not so cruel as the lack of it.<BR>

sissyphus, et al: I've just come in on this thread.While I agree to a point with the Harleys on the unmet needs and plan A'ing...there comes a time and point in EVERY relationship where plan A becomes "enabling". Impulsive may have suffered some mood swings and rightfully so...each move was countered by his wife. Now, we know why...he should have planned A for a while but when plan A had zero effect on her...then it was time for reality 101 and a plan B...but, ask her to leave...not him. She needed to see what life out there in the big ole world apart from him and the children would be like...yeah, maybe she could have had some "fun" but she also would have seen that there were many, many things that ONLY imp could meet and that she probably truly "NEEDED" him....but, sadly...he just plan A'd himself right into enabling her to make the worst of the choices because there were NO consequences for her continued behavior when he was and had changed. Over on the recovery board Plan A and Plan B are described like this: Plan A shows the spouse the changes that were needed to be made and are being made and will continue to be made by the spouse while plan B shows the other spouse the changes they need to also make inorder for there to be any hope for a marriage. Even when a spouse says that they want "out"...when they can have their cake and eat it too...then, there is no reason to do anything but stick around and make the other live in hell..and, that IS NOT GOOD FOR THE CHILDREN...and, usually when a spouse is hell bent on being distant, starting little skirmishes, and being totally defensive about EVERY LITTLE THING...then an affair is usually what is really going on with that person and their ****ty behavior. Imp...kick her [censored] out NOW!!! I am the BS...my husband had a couple of affairs on me...when I first discovered..I plan A'd him...but, when he was playing me and milking me for all that good attention and continuing to lie to me and manipulate me...then, I threw him out and I later separated for official teacher training for three weeks...but, the message was clear...see what life will be like without me and make up your mind..either commit to rebuilding this marriage..even if right now it is only for the sake of our daughter being the only thing that binds us together due to all the hurt and pain and anger...or get out and let us go on with our lives. We committed...HE had to go to therapy and fix his problem ( conflict avoidance and chronic lying and deception ) and we have had a hell of a struggle for three years...but, now..we have a very good, strong, and over all happy marriage filled with love...it did return and we did grow and learn, but...it took tough love and my stopping the enabling and the allowing him to have his cake and eat it too to get him to the point of REALLY trying to make the marriage work. As you said in one of your earlier post..she needs to **** or get off the pot.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cheatedonin98:<BR><B>While I agree to a point with the Harleys on the unmet needs and plan A'ing...there comes a time and point in EVERY relationship where plan A becomes "enabling".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well.....in an affair situation, Plan A is meant to be used in concert with Plan B if the affair doesn't end. If there is no affair, usually it is just Plan B away. That is why the existence of the affair is such a crucial data point. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cheatedonin98:<BR><B>While I agree to a point with the Harleys on the unmet needs and plan A'ing...there comes a time and point in EVERY relationship where plan A becomes "enabling".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well.....in an affair situation, Plan A is meant to be used in concert with Plan B if the affair doesn't end. If there is no affair, usually it is just Plan B away. That is why the existence of the affair is such a crucial data point. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cheatedonin98:<BR><B>While I agree to a point with the Harleys on the unmet needs and plan A'ing...there comes a time and point in EVERY relationship where plan A becomes "enabling".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well.....in an affair situation, Plan A is meant to be used in concert with Plan B if the affair doesn't end. If there is no affair, usually it is just Plan B away. That is why the existence of the affair is such a crucial data point. <P>

The wife wanted to talk once again I listened and tried very hard not to come across negatively in any way. She basically said that she wants me to move out. She doesn't want the kids to have to leave there house. I assured her I would not leave, my house or my children. She says fine, you stay here but I'm going forward with my life. What I noticed about the wife is she can say some of the meanest things in the world. She doesn't see anything wrong with that. If after I endure her meanness over and over and over and over and over I respond out of pain and frustration with the least bit of rudeness it becomes larger then life. Her meaness gets minimized to nothing. In fact she is mean with inpunity.<P>**News Flash**<P>I just found out that my wife applied for and recieved a credit card in my four year olds name!!! This has absolutlety blown me away. I haven't confronted her because I am way to angry right now.<P>I don't know what to do right now. I am feeling responsible for the state of my marriage right now. I feel that if my plan a was not so crappy then things would have turned around. I pressured her for sex and LB's myself out of a marriage. I am loving her despite her refusal to accept my love. I am not talking relationship or pressuring her for sex. I won't ask her to leave but I won't stop her from leaving either. I am maintaining faith that God will honor our marriage and soften her heart and allow me in. I'm praying that he convicts her heart and if she is in an affair he causes her to realize that our childrens future and our marriage is far more important then any roll in the hay with some person that lacks the morality to respect the sanctity of marriage. The part that surprises me is that I am not even upset. I'm just holding on to the promise of God that he will give me the desires of my heart if I remain faithful to his Will, Way, and Word. I agree that my children are my #1 priority but to try to get custody is a fight that will get very ugly and I think that may be even more devestating to the kids that will suffer enough. So I'm willing to sacrifice my feelings and need for them to spare them more pain. Also my 9 year old was 2 months old when my wife and I first met. I am the only father he has ever known. I never legally adopted him beacuse there was a issue that the lawyers said that he would be given a legal advisor to act on his behalf during a adoption proceedding. The lawyers said that he would have to be told by his lawyer that I am not his biological father and explain the details to him. My wife and I were horrified because he was old enought to be devestated. So we dicided to not get it done legally and just send him through school and life with my last name. This whole situation would mean that I would not have any legal rights to him in a custody battle. I could fight for my 4 yr. old but that would mean they would get separated. More devestation because th=ey are two peas in a pod. The wife says she is going to stop hanging out and be a better mother, and person. I confronted her about wheteher she was using cocaine again because she was addictted years ago but has been clean for 7 years now. <P>I guess the reason for my faith and the positive I take from this very sad situation is that I have lost a total of 40 pounds. I look and feel better then I have looked in 10 years. I bought me some clothes and I'm closer to God then I have ever been and I'm closer to my children then i ever been. I need prayer. I'm not trying to me a martry but I do want to be able to say that I gave my marriage everything i had left in the tank. Considering that I caused this behavior in her with my stupidity before I changed and became born again. She endured for years I feel compelled to try to love her even though she doesn't want my love. Because that is what God would do! He loves us even though we don't always recognize and accept his love. Right?

The wife wanted to talk once again I listened and tried very hard not to come across negatively in any way. She basically said that she wants me to move out. She doesn't want the kids to have to leave there house. I assured her I would not leave, my house or my children. She says fine, you stay here but I'm going forward with my life. What I noticed about the wife is she can say some of the meanest things in the world. She doesn't see anything wrong with that. If after I endure her meanness over and over and over and over and over I respond out of pain and frustration with the least bit of rudeness it becomes larger then life. Her meaness gets minimized to nothing. In fact she is mean with inpunity.<P>**News Flash**<P>I just found out that my wife applied for and recieved a credit card in my four year olds name!!! This has absolutlety blown me away. I haven't confronted her because I am way to angry right now.<P>I don't know what to do right now. I am feeling responsible for the state of my marriage right now. I feel that if my plan a was not so crappy then things would have turned around. I pressured her for sex and LB's myself out of a marriage. I am loving her despite her refusal to accept my love. I am not talking relationship or pressuring her for sex. I won't ask her to leave but I won't stop her from leaving either. I am maintaining faith that God will honor our marriage and soften her heart and allow me in. I'm praying that he convicts her heart and if she is in an affair he causes her to realize that our childrens future and our marriage is far more important then any roll in the hay with some person that lacks the morality to respect the sanctity of marriage. The part that surprises me is that I am not even upset. I'm just holding on to the promise of God that he will give me the desires of my heart if I remain faithful to his Will, Way, and Word. I agree that my children are my #1 priority but to try to get custody is a fight that will get very ugly and I think that may be even more devestating to the kids that will suffer enough. So I'm willing to sacrifice my feelings and need for them to spare them more pain. Also my 9 year old was 2 months old when my wife and I first met. I am the only father he has ever known. I never legally adopted him beacuse there was a issue that the lawyers said that he would be given a legal advisor to act on his behalf during a adoption proceedding. The lawyers said that he would have to be told by his lawyer that I am not his biological father and explain the details to him. My wife and I were horrified because he was old enought to be devestated. So we dicided to not get it done legally and just send him through school and life with my last name. This whole situation would mean that I would not have any legal rights to him in a custody battle. I could fight for my 4 yr. old but that would mean they would get separated. More devestation because th=ey are two peas in a pod. The wife says she is going to stop hanging out and be a better mother, and person. I confronted her about wheteher she was using cocaine again because she was addictted years ago but has been clean for 7 years now. <P>I guess the reason for my faith and the positive I take from this very sad situation is that I have lost a total of 40 pounds. I look and feel better then I have looked in 10 years. I bought me some clothes and I'm closer to God then I have ever been and I'm closer to my children then i ever been. I need prayer. I'm not trying to me a martry but I do want to be able to say that I gave my marriage everything i had left in the tank. Considering that I caused this behavior in her with my stupidity before I changed and became born again. She endured for years I feel compelled to try to love her even though she doesn't want my love. Because that is what God would do! He loves us even though we don't always recognize and accept his love. Right?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>**News Flash**<P>I just found out that my wife applied for and recieved a credit card in my four year olds name!!! This has absolutlety blown me away. I haven't confronted her because I am way to angry right now.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Who wears the pants in this family? You need to call that issuer right now and get that card canceled. If they won't do it over the phone, get the address where you can write ... say the issuance was an accident (don't open her up to fraud charges--although some would say to go all the way and let that happen too) ... this is irresponsible behavior on her part, and you have every right to lovebust however necessary to insulate your children from the consequences of her foolish machinations. <P>IMHO, the sooner there's an intervention, the better. <P>