Kelli,<BR>You and I are saying the exact same thing if you will go back and re-read my post. What I said was certainly harsh, but it wasn't rude. Telling someone the truth is never rude. I don't know if you have read each and every installment to dcope/impulsive's saga, but if you have you have to see the cycle he has created for himself. All I am saying is that if he is tired of the roller coaster - get off the ride. He holds the keys himself. <P>Imp,<BR>My post was not intended to be rude. But, it was intended to try and shine a light on how your own decisions are partly responsible for your trauma. If you won't call the Harleys for an appointment or go see a counselor on your own, you are probably going to continue to set yourself up for these manic highs and lows. Six months of doing the same thing has not gotten you the desired result. Sometimes the very thing we do not want to hear is what we need to hear most.<BR>You may turn a deaf ear to this input, as you have most advice on this forum. That is of course your choice. I just offer an unbiased outsider's view of your 43 pages of posts.<BR> Wiffle

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>So she says you have been dressing so nice lately why the change? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think in a different time you might have been able to take this as a compliment.<P>If she hates the grubby jeans, toss them. Attractive spouse is an EN. Ignoring something as simply executed as that is an LB, in my mind. <p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited August 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>Who have I been living for these last 6 months?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>C'mon, Impy, you are starting to sound like OLGJMJ. Plan A is for you. You have changed, you have improved. Your W has noticed. <P>Once in awhile you just really show a whiff on a basic concept. Please get into counseling with the Harleys.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She said well everytime in the past when i said lose weight and you did as soon as I mentioned and noticed progress you stopped almost immedietely and started gaining it all back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Impulsive: this is verbatim what my H said to me. I too have changed physically for him and wanted him to notice and was hurt when he didn't. However, when he told me the above I realized that was his reality (based on my past behavior) and he was hoping by not commenting the good work might persist. I look great now, but I think it may take several years of looking good to change his perception of my true PA. 6 months is nothing compared to 10 years.... And when he does offer a negative type comment instead of getting defensive I state back what he said, like: Yes, my weight has been creeping back, I must take myself in hand again and not revert to my old ways. By staying positive instead of defensive our communication stays open and I find he is more accepting and loving toward me even if I haven't hit the gym everyday. Heck! at least he is noticing! better than being withdrawn.<P>Please review the post this quote came in. Look at your behavior wrt MB principles. Were you LB'ng? Although I don't agree with everything Wiffle says, he is correct in pointing out that you have not been in perfect Plan A mode and it does appear from your posts that you avoid doing some hard things: call the Harleys - believe me if you truly wish to save your marriage you need their help - yes it does cost $125 per session - but worth it no matter what the final result. Are you avoiding counseling? are you using the cost as an excuse? Are you afraid they will force you to face the possibility of an affair? What is really holding you back? Advice on this board is no replacement for professional services. Even one session will help YOU.<BR> Although all situations are different, we both started posting here about the same time, I have been very interested in your stories and want you to succeed. I have used Steve H and I credit the positive state of my marriage on this counseling. Please, please do this for yourself!!!<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ihope:<BR><B> Advice on this board is no replacement for professional services. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Great post.<P>I especially agree that I'd rather have a spouse that expresses concern with my appearance and makes suggestions than one who expresses...nothing...apathy. <BR>

Imp: I've been following your post now for months. I have to say that i am highly impressed by your strength! You have shown more restraint than anyone I know of! I think you are a great man, great father, a wonderful husband, and a good Christian. But, don't you think it's time for Plan B? <P>I mean, you are surely getting very low on your love bank account, aren't you? Before it runs dry, and you still have a shread of love left for your WS, don't you think Plan B needs to be implimented? You have honestly done all that can be done to make your W happy. And, all she has done to you is to take advantage of you! Don't you think?<P>You know, I'll bet money that when your W told you she didn't love you anymore (for the first time) you fell madly in love w/ her, didn't you? Sure you did! Why? Cause you thought you'd loose her, and you felt guilty for pushing her away. Am I close? <P>Well, why not try the same thing on her? What (at this point) have you got to loose? You have already lost her respect, because she is walking all over you! You know it, and most everyone on MB knows it too! <P>If you initiate Plan B, she will eventually begin to miss the "wonderful" you! I would almost guarantee it! <P>Just my 2 cents worth...<P>God Bless you in all your efforts! <P>HT <P>

Wiffle, <BR>I appreciate you not only taking the time to read the history of this thread but you also taking the time to write a response based on your thoughts surrounding my situation. Let me clarify a few points. <P>1. I have not consumed alcohol in over 6 months now. Mostly for religious reasons, and because I have shedded the lifestyle that was connected to my drinking. Late nights hanging out with the guys, strip clubs, sporting events, and cigar smoking. The fact that I run 4 miles every morning before work and treadmill, bicycle, and weight train in the evenings is not exactly conducive to having a few beers every now and again. <P>2. Your perception that I ignore all of the advice I recieve from this forum. I absolutely disagree with that because I have read every post and taken every single ounce of advice to heart and tried my best to impliment the positive and take what I think is in my best interest. Have I executed a flawless plan A. Not even close, but I have never stoppped trying and I wake up every morning praying for the strength to continue and live another day to love my wife and allow her a opportunity to see that I have made some terrible mistakes as a person in the past that has caused serious maybe irrrepairable harm to my marriage but I have changed as as person and I would spend the rest of my life making it up to her by loving, honoring, respecting, and treating like the queen I've grown to see her and respect her for. The fact that she is the mother of my two sons is extra incentive to keep my family together because the boys deserve to have a mother and father under the same roof showing love to each other and giving them the happy functional home that they deserve.<P>3. Am I avoiding counseling or am I using this forum as a substitute for counseling? No not even a little bit. I have been in counseling since the onset of this saga. I have tried to get my wife involved in the counseling but she refuses. What is my real motivation to post? I post because this gives me a outlet to express my feelings as open and honestly as I can possibly be. Rather then calling the people I sometimes call when I reach what feels like a breaking point, or wearing out the same shoulders day in and day out I post because it beats punching walls or kicking the dog. Why haven't I called Harley yet? Good question. I really don't know. I think a big part of me is scared for him to tell me OK let's start with plan A. I'm scared to start from scratch. I'm terrified of the prospect of someone telling me I've been spitting in the wind for the last six months. <P>4. Some of your comments came across a little direct and to the point but I doubt you were attempting to be mean spirited. I think you read alot and wanted to scream at me a few times along teh way and probably got a little frustrated with my roller coaster manic actions and reactions but trust me when I tell you that I'm not being hard headed on purpose. I'm not some type of sick twisted sadist that likes the pain and agongy that I have endured over the first half of this year. I'm a emotional person that has always had his way his whole life. From being a only child to having a very loving submissive wife. Now for the first time in my life I am having to deal with consequences. Consequences based on my actions. It's hard. I know it easy to sit back and say well welcome to the real world but living through it and dealing with the guilt of causing most of this mess is overwhelming. Dealing with rejection when all I want to do is love my wife is very hard. My counseler and I had a session today. He told me that I have a very high treshold for pain and good emotional endurance. He feels that I should maintain the staus quo until I can't take anymore. He said stop talking to her about the marriage and stop trying to get her to meet your sexual needs and spend more time focusing on yourself and your kids. I agree. I will call Harley. I will continue doing what ever is needed to do all I can do to save my marriage. Unconditionally I commit all of my heart and soul to saving something I think is worth saving. I'm open to suggestions, and you know there have been several times when i was making progress and I thought to myself don't ask her that. Or don't do that. But I did it anyway because my heart and emotions overrode my brain. I regret doing it and I hated the consequences but it's hard to apologize for being so deeply in love with someone that you can't get out of your own way. I wish I had more self control. I wish I had the discipline to execute a flawless plan A, but I'm not flawless and I'm going to make mistakes. Anybody would and will. The good part of being on the outside looking in is you can give good objective advice. The negative is you don't have any idea of the type of tug a wars that go on inside of my heart and mind.

Hurt Tired, I have thought of moving out. The reason I haven't is because of my children. Trust me if I told you that if I didn't have to wonderful boys I would have left a long time ago. The marriage is important to me. I love my wife. I love her unconditionally. The easiest thing in the world would be for me to leave and say the hell with this craziness. I don't because she didn't quit on me, and I'm not a quitter. I'm a very loyal person. If I was a criminal I would be the type of person you would want to do crime with because I would rot in jail before I gave anybody up to save myself. I'm extremely loyal like that. I never quit on my wife. I was really depressed. I was unable to connect to her needs when she needed me most. The sad part is that if she had not have came to me when she did, i would most likely be still lost. Sometimes things happen in life because God usues them to get our attention. God knew at that time the only thing that could get my attention was my wife or my kids. Being broke didn't do it because my business was already suffering. Being fat and out of shape didn't do it because I was already that. My wife telling me she didn't want to be married to me was probably the worse/best thing that ever happened to me in my life. I'm closer to my God and my children then I have ever been in my entire life. I like what i see in the mirror for the first time in 10 years. I have grown tremendously. I know what it is to be a husband and a man for the first time in my entire life. I'm 33. My #1 priority and responsibility as a father and man is to set a positive example for my children. By moving out I send the message that boys in life when things gets real tough give up, take the easy way out and do what ever makes you feel better at that moment. I would rather send the message that when life deals you some bad cards and you give yourself a hit with some even worse cards you don't throw in you hand, you play it out and you stay in the game until you get the cards that help you win the game. Some might say I'm a fool falling on my sword but until God tells me to leave, or she leaves, or i know with out a shadow of a doubt that she is involved with someone else. I'm standing. In closing those were some very kind words and that's the type of encouragement that feeds my stregth. I maybe making a huge mistake. I may look back on this season of my life and say what a waste. The one thing I know for a fact is that it's better to try and fail then to never try at all.

I am reall confused about something and I would like some input. I recieved my very large monthly check today from the government contract my company has. The wife is eagerly anticipating it to because the kids school clothes, tuition payments and rent and bills all count on my providing. The wife told me today that she had to go to the grocery store and spend all the money she had today because ther was very little food left. I asked how much did you spend she said $60.00 and now she is broke. After I cashed my check I was very torn on whether or not to repay her those $60.00. I did give her the money and she said thank you but I felt kind of empty because My money seemms to be OURS, and her money seems to be hers. Considering the interesting dynamics of our current situation should I just keep providing like I normally would now that I have my priorities straight or do I scale back somehow. Am I being taken advantage of or am I doing my husbandly and fatherly duty?

Can you sit down with her and agree on a budget? That's what happens in families where things are going right, and I think you have a right to it.

Impulsive,<BR> I feel almost as if I am barging in on a post that is so well kept by Mike C2, and Sisiphus. I have been reading your posts since almost the beginning, I stopped for a few months and then looked to see how you were doing wondering if you still posted on here. to my suprise you did.<P>I feel so much pain for you, and just wanted to remind you again with all of this advice, advice, advice, that you also need to know that you're not alone. <P>Many people who are compelled enough to read your post and follow it's massive amount of pages, are drawn to read because they too have been in your shoes. I, like you had to go through a tremendous break down, before I could learn to be strong. <P>I just remember that being the hardest thing I ever had to go through. I used to go to sleep, and the first thing I would think when I awoke was it was a horrible dream, but it wasn't it was my life. I did get through it and so will you, no matter what....<P>Just wanted to let you know that you shouldn't have to make people understand why you are still posting, that this saga is not over and there are still some people here to listen.<BR>

This was one of those days where you wonder why your still here. I feel somewhat stupid because I'm staying here paying all the bills, sleeping on the couch and getting nothin in return. But this is the life I choose so who am I to complain? I'm pretty lonely. I took the boys on a picnic today and then we went to my son's hockey practice. Hockey practice is starting to depress me because it's such a family oriented sport. Everyone seems to be a happy little family, except us the king and Queen of dysfunction. I'm on my couch. She's in the bed I paid alll the bills and didn't even get a thank you. I need companionship. I need a friendly voice to talk to from time to time. A hug or a kiss would make my month but it's been forever since I've had geniune affection. This is one of those days that I wish would come around a little less often.

Things have deteriorated to the point where there is very little to say to each other anymore. I hate coming home. I don't think this thing is ever going to get any better. I'm tired of the couch, and I'm tired of being alone. I want to kiss someone. I want to be missed. I want someone to care if I'm alive for any reason other then I have to pay the boys school tuition, and take them to hockey practice. This whole concept of me getting stronger and becoming a better person is getting old, because who am I getting stronger and better for. We are both stubborn. She won't leave and I won't leave. What's the purpose of becoming this wonderul person if I can't share it with anyone. I can't even articulate the extend of my frustration right now. I have to go to sleep because if I stay awake any longer I am going to have to come up with reasons not to kill myself. I'm strong enough not to do it but I do have to fight the urge because life doesn't seem to be getting any better.

I am really starting to dislike my wife very much. She is just being such a *****. All I do is try to be as responsible and non confrontational as possible. I pay the bills and stay out of her way. I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured. I 'm at a point where I don't think I can take much more. I want to just shutdown. I feel like just staying in the bed and crying all day. She is trying to get me to breakdown. She wants me out. I want to leave but the impact on my children will be devestating. I feel trapped. I hate my life right now.

Imp...why haven't you called Steve Harley? You will feel better when you have a plan and some direction.<P>In lieu of you counseling with Steve, I am going to ask HT to put up a post and repeat it three times, like in BeetleJuice.<p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I am really starting to dislike my wife very much. She is just being such a *****. All I do is try to be as responsible and non confrontational as possible. I pay the bills and stay out of her way. I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured. I 'm at a point where I don't think I can take much more. I want to just shutdown. I feel like just staying in the bed and crying all day. She is trying to get me to breakdown. She wants me out. I want to leave but the impact on my children will be devestating. I feel trapped. I hate my life right now. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMP: Hey man, wake up and smell the coffee! God is trying to tell you something! I believe that when you have done all you can do, then you have done ALL YOU CAN DO!!<P>I know what it's like to cry and cry for hours on end! It feels terrible, but it also releases the hurt! (At least to some extent. ) What you have to keep telling yourself is that you are doing the right thing here! You are doing what God would want you to do! You know, Jesus Christ loved the church UNCONDITIONALLY! The church is supposed to love and honor Christ. But, if the church doesn't love Christ, do you think that Christ stops loving the church? NO!!!!<P>Imp, this is what you have done w/ your W! You have given her unconditional love! But, now you are making it conditional! Am I right? You know I am, but you're only HUMAN! We all need to be loved, and you know that God loves you, your children love you, and I'd bet money that your W loves you too. But she is in a FOG!!! You have to bring her out of that FOG! How do you do this??????? Plan B!<P>I know that this seems to be impossible, because you don't want to leave your children. And, I wouldn't blame you! I would NOT leave my children w/ your W!! But, maybe you can make arrangements to move your W out into a friend's house or apartment. Make it clear to her that you don't want any contact w/ her, until she can 1.) Be honest w/ you about any possible A, 2.) respect your commitment to the M, her children, and you, and 3.) Make a commitment to either work on repairing the relationship, or seeking a D!<P>If you stay in this state of hate for much longer, Satan will have complete control! He already has a tight grip on your whole situation! Don't you agree? You are talikng suicide now! This is not God's plan for you!! You have to take charge NOW, and do what needs to be done before you have NO love left in you for any possibility of ever loving your W (or any woman, for that matter) again! <P>Imp, good luck, and God Bless you for being so loving! But, it's time to act! Please, for your sake, and for the sake of your family, take action! <P>Once again, God bless you! I will pray for you and your family! Take care!<P>HT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I am really starting to dislike my wife very much. She is just being such a *****. All I do is try to be as responsible and non confrontational as possible. I pay the bills and stay out of her way. I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured. I 'm at a point where I don't think I can take much more. I want to just shutdown. I feel like just staying in the bed and crying all day. She is trying to get me to breakdown. She wants me out. I want to leave but the impact on my children will be devestating. I feel trapped. I hate my life right now. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMP: Hey man, wake up and smell the coffee! God is trying to tell you something! I believe that when you have done all you can do, then you have done ALL YOU CAN DO!!<P>I know what it's like to cry and cry for hours on end! It feels terrible, but it also releases the hurt! (At least to some extent. ) What you have to keep telling yourself is that you are doing the right thing here! You are doing what God would want you to do! You know, Jesus Christ loved the church UNCONDITIONALLY! The church is supposed to love and honor Christ. But, if the church doesn't love Christ, do you think that Christ stops loving the church? NO!!!!<P>Imp, this is what you have done w/ your W! You have given her unconditional love! But, now you are making it conditional! Am I right? You know I am, but you're only HUMAN! We all need to be loved, and you know that God loves you, your children love you, and I'd bet money that your W loves you too. But she is in a FOG!!! You have to bring her out of that FOG! How do you do this??????? Plan B!<P>I know that this seems to be impossible, because you don't want to leave your children. And, I wouldn't blame you! I would NOT leave my children w/ your W!! But, maybe you can make arrangements to move your W out into a friend's house or apartment. Make it clear to her that you don't want any contact w/ her, until she can 1.) Be honest w/ you about any possible A, 2.) respect your commitment to the M, her children, and you, and 3.) Make a commitment to either work on repairing the relationship, or seeking a D!<P>If you stay in this state of hate for much longer, Satan will have complete control! He already has a tight grip on your whole situation! Don't you agree? You are talikng suicide now! This is not God's plan for you!! You have to take charge NOW, and do what needs to be done before you have NO love left in you for any possibility of ever loving your W (or any woman, for that matter) again! <P>Imp, good luck, and God Bless you for being so loving! But, it's time to act! Please, for your sake, and for the sake of your family, take action! <P>Once again, God bless you! I will pray for you and your family! Take care!<P>HT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by impulsive:<BR><B>I am really starting to dislike my wife very much. She is just being such a *****. All I do is try to be as responsible and non confrontational as possible. I pay the bills and stay out of her way. I usually stay gone as long as possible so she can not feel smothered or pressured. I 'm at a point where I don't think I can take much more. I want to just shutdown. I feel like just staying in the bed and crying all day. She is trying to get me to breakdown. She wants me out. I want to leave but the impact on my children will be devestating. I feel trapped. I hate my life right now. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMP: Hey man, wake up and smell the coffee! God is trying to tell you something! I believe that when you have done all you can do, then you have done ALL YOU CAN DO!!<P>I know what it's like to cry and cry for hours on end! It feels terrible, but it also releases the hurt! (At least to some extent. ) What you have to keep telling yourself is that you are doing the right thing here! You are doing what God would want you to do! You know, Jesus Christ loved the church UNCONDITIONALLY! The church is supposed to love and honor Christ. But, if the church doesn't love Christ, do you think that Christ stops loving the church? NO!!!!<P>Imp, this is what you have done w/ your W! You have given her unconditional love! But, now you are making it conditional! Am I right? You know I am, but you're only HUMAN! We all need to be loved, and you know that God loves you, your children love you, and I'd bet money that your W loves you too. But she is in a FOG!!! You have to bring her out of that FOG! How do you do this??????? Plan B!<P>I know that this seems to be impossible, because you don't want to leave your children. And, I wouldn't blame you! I would NOT leave my children w/ your W!! But, maybe you can make arrangements to move your W out into a friend's house or apartment. Make it clear to her that you don't want any contact w/ her, until she can 1.) Be honest w/ you about any possible A, 2.) respect your commitment to the M, her children, and you, and 3.) Make a commitment to either work on repairing the relationship, or seeking a D!<P>If you stay in this state of hate for much longer, Satan will have complete control! He already has a tight grip on your whole situation! Don't you agree? You are talikng suicide now! This is not God's plan for you!! You have to take charge NOW, and do what needs to be done before you have NO love left in you for any possibility of ever loving your W (or any woman, for that matter) again! <P>Imp, good luck, and God Bless you for being so loving! But, it's time to act! Please, for your sake, and for the sake of your family, take action! <P>Once again, God bless you! I will pray for you and your family! Take care!<P>HT

<cough><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited September 05, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B> In lieu of you counseling with Steve, I am going to ask HT to put up a post and repeat it three times, like in BeetleJuice.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BeatleJuice, BeatleJuice, BeatleJuice!!!! <P>Hey, IMP! Mike told me that the Harleys will come to your house in a van, and camp there! <P>Seriously though, he's right. Call Steve Harley if at all possible! But, take some kind of action at least!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>God Bless!<P>HT <P>