HH, I like what you said about budgets, jeans and knowing how your spouse will react. So true, you certainly cannot call, email, fax, or send carrier pigeon for every last thing. It is assumed that you will know how your spouse feels about certain issues and that you can go ahead and act in accordance with that. <p>It's the 'new' or 'different' or 'unusual' circumstances that come up where you really need to take the time to ask, "How would you feel (think [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) about this?"
Occassionally, we all do things that we thought our spouse would be fine with, only to be wrong. In that case, it is up to the spouse to say something like, "Hey, you know... I really was unhappy with that thing you did the other day." (should be said pleasantly, with a smile) To which the offending spouse should apologize, plead ignorance, and then proceed from there.<p>
AD - I read you TG story long ago, also on the topic of POJA. I do have some thoughts, but alas.....the joys of mothering 3 elementary school children call.....it's track and field day, and I have the gatorade [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Later,<p>Cerri

itd,<p>Thanks for responding to my post. I want it to work. I really do. I want to just be able to say POJA and all my troubles go away. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by inthedark:
<strong>Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think in the Thanksgiving situation, what was called for was doing nothing unless you could come to a joint agreement. To me, that would mean no Thanksgiving dinner, Mother or not.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I don't see how that could be accomplished and I still don't see how that improves anything. By POJA, whoever can express their point of view in the passive mode can have their way. Doing nothing was doing something - dissing my Mom. I don't think the situation would be improved by me taking the turkey out of the oven and throwing it away - chasing W out of the kitchen and telling her that nobody would eat if Mama didn't eat.<p>My problem with POJA again is that every choice can be stated in two ways - sometimes one way is clearly negative and the other positive, but still each side of the fork in the road is a choice. All POJA does is force us down the fork which can be most clearly defined as "doing nothing". If my W wants me to get out of bed and I don't want to, "doing nothing" is staying in bed - which is what I wanted to do. I don't see how that helps us be more agreeable.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Then, go back and try to follow the guidelines as posted by Cerri.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I do think there is a lot than can be accomplished under POJA - but, by it's definition, it requires cooperation - and it's very goal is cooperation. If my W rejects POJA, we cannot use it. Still, I can use the boundary model. I can say "I will not do that which I know my W does not agree with" and "I will not do that with which I disagree." That doesn't allow room for give and take, but it may be the best I can do by myself.<p>BTW. My W doesn't approve of me posting here - or wasting time and money on marriage books.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>
Does that make sense?
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry, but No.<p>-AD

AD wrote:Doing nothing was doing something - dissing my Mom. I don't think the situation would be improved by me taking the turkey out of the oven and throwing it away - chasing W out of the kitchen and telling her that nobody would eat if Mama didn't eat.
<p>Yes! You are right, that would hjave been doing 'something.' The whole point of the 'do nothing' part is to force both parties to brainstorm their a**es off in order to reach a mutually enthusiastic solution. Obviously, dissing mom, would not have been that.<p>I do think there is a lot than can be accomplished under POJA - but, by it's definition, it requires cooperation - and it's very goal is cooperation. <p>Absolutely. Without a cooperative effort on the part of each partner, it doesn't work well. However, after one failed marriage, and the second one heading in that direction, I truly believe that without that spirit of cooperation relationships cannot survive long term.....and be mutually satisfying.<p>What I advocate is that YOU (or in my case I) live up to the strictures of POJA. Ask how your spouse would feel about any decision you are going to make. If he or she is not happy about some aspect of it, attempt to negotiate until you are both satisified (happy at the same time with the solution)<p>Going further into MB philosophy, I think that a crucial part of POJA is radical honesty. And that if your spouse rejects the concept of POJA on the surface, I believe (and Dr. Harely says) that you are still responsible for sharing how your spouses behavior affects you.<p>So, if your spouse won't POJA his or her choices and you are unhappy, by the rule of honesty you need to say so. With respect, and without demands or anger.<p>If a combination of honesty and following POJA to the best of your ability does not effect change in the relationship, then you have a couple of choices. You can choose to live in a marriage that is not fulfilling, and where resentment will eventually build to dislike. Or you can go to Plan B. Or you can choose to leave altogether.<p>I've never been an advocate of saying that because one person cannot or will not follow the rules that makes it ok for the other party to disregard them as well.<p>However, that does make me something of a hypocrite, since things have deteriorated sooooo far in my marriage, I'm at the 'just don't care' stage. And although I do my best to be pleasant, courteous, respectful and cooperative, I'm through giving up everything I want when there has not been an effort at negotiating a lifestyle we both enjoy.<p>I doubt you would find ANYONE on this site who has suffered more abuse and control in the name of POJA than I have over the last 5 years. That doesn't mean I don't believe in the rule. It means that it really does take a good understanding of how it's supposed to work, and two people capable of cooperating.<p>About the dinner, as a human being (as opposed to a MB obsessive [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ) I think I would have reccomended that if wife didn't want to have mom come for dinner.... after inviting her in the first place.... that wife spend the afternoon in her room....grounded [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .......but then I deal with 4 sons and one husband and tend to get a little bossy [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jmv:
<strong>The "doing nothing" part bothers me. So, if H wants to live in our current house and I want to live someplace else, and we can't agree, then does doing NOTHING mean we should camp out in a tent until we get it figured out???</strong><hr></blockquote><p>For W and I the "do nothing" means more than just doing nothing about movinging out. It means you do nothing; you don't watch TV, you don't eat dinner, you don't read the newspaper - you do NOTHING except talk about the issue until you both COMPLETELY understand each others perspective and reach a decision. <p>This may seem unreasonable at first. It is difficult rigt now to see how you will ever be able to arrive at a joint decision. But consider this....<p>You have formed an position/opinion based on your needs and the information available to you. Your needs are many and complex...your opinion takes them all into account. The information you have is sketchy (your only estimating what your future holds, whether it will be better or worse to move) and your position takes the benefits/risks into account. Your opinion/position isn't the work of a fool - you have givin it all the consideration you can think of. <p>Well ....here's the part that you might disagree with .... your H is no fool either. He has considered his needs, his information and the benfits/risks to him. He is resisting the move because he doesn't believe it is the right thing to do. His reasons are 100% as valid as yours. <p>Using the POJA is a process where you combine all of your needs with his, all of your information with his and then consider the benefits and risks to "us" as a couple rather than as individuals. <p>You already have the ability to consider a complex set of needs - yours alone are complex and you managed to consider all of them. Adding your H's needs to your consideration just makes the stew a bit thicker. You may prefer to think that your needs are more important than his, but if you sit there long enough without dinner, hunger will set in and you will become less arrogant. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Your H may have different information than you...different experiences or reasoning he is using to extrapolate and predict the future. You may not trust his "experience" as much as your own, but they are just as valid. When you chose to explore his experiences and listen with the purpose of understanding his reasoning (as opposed to arguing against it) you will eventually begin to appreciate the value of his perspective. <p>If you understand his needs and his perspective, give them equal value with your own, then you can make a decision you will both be content with. This is the easy part because the solution will seem so simple. If it doesn't then make a matrix on paper - list all the combined needs and fears on one side, the choices you have across the top. Then considere if choice A meets need 1...s on and so forth. <p>If none of the choices fulfill ALL the needs (or satisfy all the fears) then think about what other actions can be added to the equation to help. For example, if your H fears moving because of the financial burdon then maybe renegotiating your budget to include the expense so you know exactly what other "benefits" would be sacrificed would help resolve the fear. If you fear being "trapped" forever then maybe setting up a meeting every three months to revisit the issues would help resolve your fear. <p>One need at a time you work to arrive at a solution that encompasses all of your needs, fears and feelings. You will be surprised how good it feels....especially when you finally get to sit down and eat (or go to bed....we usually have our negotiations at night). <p>Sometimes with real big decision it takes us more than one "meeting" to resolve all the issues. As long as the meetings are close together so that you don't lose momentum the process still works. However, W and I have fallen into the trap many times of becoming busy and leaving the issue too long after the first meeting. We lose respect for each others point of view and wind up starting all over again. This can be frustrating. Hang in there and set the meetings up as close together as possible.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>The whole point of the 'do nothing' part is to force both parties to brainstorm their a**es off in order to reach a mutually enthusiastic solution.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Hi, Cerri! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I gotta ask you something, okay? <p>What do you do when one spouse wants to do 'Nothing', and the other spouse agrees to it ONLY to keep the peace? You know what I'm getting at here, huh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My W refuses to deal with conflict at all! "Just ignor it, and it will go away." [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (That's her idea.) <p>Then, you said, "So, if your spouse won't POJA his or her choices and you are unhappy, by the rule of honesty you need to say so. With respect, and without demands or anger."<p>If I tell my W that I am NOT happy with ignoring conflicts, and I want to resolve them, she'll take that as a DEMAND! She isn't interested in what, or how I feel. But, she's happy as long as we don't discuss our relationship. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess my question is: How long can you go on playing this game? I mean, I have enjoyed the peace we've had lately. I really have! But, she doesn't feel safe, and I'm loosing my LB balance out of resentment for her! What's wrong with this picture? I mean, in the meantime, either one of us could fall for an OP! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I don't want that, but I'm NOT so sure about W! I think that (for now) I'm her ONLY best alternative! <p>You guys keep telling me that my W doesn't feel protected! And, I agree that (clearly) this appears to be the case! But, me being quiet, and not being honest about how I feel is tearing me apart! What's the point of POJA when one of you isn't happy, and can't be honest about it due to fear of the other's rejection? <p>Then you said, "If a combination of honesty and following POJA to the best of your ability does not effect change in the relationship, then you have a couple of choices. You can choose to live in a marriage that is not fulfilling, and where resentment will eventually build to dislike. Or you can go to Plan B. Or you can choose to leave altogether."<p>Isn't there another solution? I mean, leave 'em, Divorce 'em, or be unhappy? Surely there's another way to resolve and repair a M? Don't you think? Just a thought...... <p>God Bless! <p>HT<p>[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: HurtTired ]</p>

HT,
Your wife has been in and out of deep withdrawal for a long time. Although my theoretical position in radical honesty, in a case like yours where she doesn't feel safe, you need to get that under control first.<p>As you know, I don't believe in Plan A as a lifestyle choice. That is tatamount to unconditional love, where you give and give and give, expecting nothng in return... and it ultimately leads to resentment, affairs, and other icky things.<p>However, I think that you need to hone safety skills before you can move onto the honesty POJA stuff. She needs to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that EVERY conversation you have will be safe. Safe, safe, safe. No raised voice, smile never ever slips, courteous, cooperative, respectful, gentle. Until you get to the place where that is habitual for you, you aren't going to have any luck with the other stuff.<p>Ok, so having said that.....
If you are unhappy about something, you have a right to say so. And under the rule of radical honesty, an obligation (taking into account what I said above). But WHAT you say and HOW you say it and when you STOP speaking are big parts of doing it right.<p>It is ok to say, "Sweetheart, I'd like to spend more time with you."<p>It's not ok to say, "You spend all your time with your friends and colleagues, you obviously care more about them than you do about me!"<p>It's ok to say," Gee, I'm unhappy that you did _____." (preferably with a smile, a gentle tone, and a manner that is not crisis oriented. Just a short, simple, factual statement.)<p>If she blows up, as I know your wife is prone to doing. Then it is UP TO YOU not to take the bait. You MUST maintain safety. If she blows up or gets upset then you need to end the conversation. Saying something like, "I'm sorry, I can see you're upset, let's talk about this later," with a soft voice and a tone of concern..... and then change the subject or WALK AWAY.<p>POJA starts with being honest about what you feel, what you need, and how your spouse's actions affect you. But you must do it an atmosphere of care, protection, and cooperation.<p>Cerri

I think this discussion about POJA is extremely educational, particularly the examples.

Some POJA links: (Just 2 of the MANY that are here)<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5041d_qa.html<p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html<p>If you go to either of these links (or any for that matter) you'll see on the left side of the page many others on related topics.<p>Really, you should check these out if you want to understand what Marriage Builders is all about [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Cerri

This is good too. It might be my favorite.<p>
POJA when very incompatible

bumpity bump bumpity --- to the top we go...<p>Jan

^

up.

Hi Kathi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Hi Cerri!

Kathi

^

Interesting thread,,,,thanks for the information,,,,I had some real concerns about POJA (When what you want vs what your Spouse wants breaks your moral code) that I discussed on the "In Recovery" forum, but this information was truly helpful. Years ago <Pre-MB> I donated a kidney to my sister which my husband CLEARLY did not want me to donate. I felt as a moral decision I had no choice,,,,he was terrified I would die,,,,there simply seemed to be no compromising it. I donated it, and he was resentful for years. However, in talking with him about it NOW that our marriage is recovering, we came to a couple of conclusions. It's so much easier to be enthusiastic about what your spouse wants when your needs are being met,,,his weren't at the time, and I think he would have resented ANYTHING I wanted at the time,,,he isn't just a jerk who didn't want me to do anything to save my sister's life,,he was a human being who resented that it seemed that I got what I wanted at the expense of his fear,,there was so much more I could have done to make him more comfortable,,,,we could have POJA'd a visit with the surgeon so he could hear how very small the chance was that I would be hurt in any permanent way,,,,We could have POJA'd saving money in advance so that the month I took off work wouldn't have made so much of a difference in our lifestyle at that time,,,anyway, I just wanted to thank you for the information on POJA,,it should be very useful,,,,Holly

Hello,
I'm new here and the POJA has me completely baffled. My marriage is definitely on the rocks, has been for a long time, we've been stupid enough to allow resentment build to dislike. We are finally trying to salvage it and I am glad I found this site.

However... for example.. right now he is at a hockey game. I HATE spectator sports. He loves to watch all sports on TV and go to games when he can. I love to spend time on the computer and he is the original non-techy. The list goes on, we have VERY FEW activities that we both enjoy. I guess that's how we got in trouble. So what do I do when he wants to go to a hockey game? I don't think I could do it without resenting wasting so much of my time. I wouldn't mind it if H wanted to interact with me during the game, but he is very focused and I may as well not be there.

I think it's fine if he goes and I stay home and do stuff. Is that okay according to the POJA, especially if we both agree? We've been married 24 years, have suffered through H's PA and my EA years later, and need to do something before it falls apart. Thanks! ByGrace

Any comments? Thanks! ByGrace

bygrace,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's fine if he goes and I stay home and do stuff. Is that okay according to the POJA, especially if we both agree? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The POJA simply means that you do not do things that your spouse cannot happily agree with...so, yes, as long as you both agree happily, that is fine. Maybe you are thinking of another MB principle (The Rule of Time) that states that a couple should spend 15 hours of "quality" time together. The idea is not to be joined at the hip, but to guard a sufficient amount of "couple time". While I do think that spending sufficient time together enjoying each other's compnay and meeting each others ENs is very important...I will say that many of us don't get anywhere close to 15 hours most weeks!

Hope that helps.

Kathi

<<<I think it's fine if he goes and I stay home and do stuff. Is that okay according to the POJA, especially if we both agree? >>>

I'm with Kam,,,,,if you both enthusiastically agree, why not?? But it would also be great if you could spend more time together,,,,what if you POJA'd the game and then DINNER afterwards at a restaurant (that you're both enthusiastic about) so you could get some UDA?? You might not feel so resentful if he gave you UDA at dinner and you used it for a really romantic date <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Just a thought,,,,,Holly

Thanks healing heart and kam,

Good suggestions. We have a lot of work to do to get to the point where we actually enjoy each other. After a PA EA by him and EA by me on-line more recently, we have a lot of hurts to overcome. I ordered HNHN and Lovebusters books and wonder about Surviving Infidelity book. His A was 12 years ago, mine was just last year and he doesn't know about it first. I am reluctant to share that with him because we haven't resolved issues from his A yet... Oh my... lots of work to make this thing work. My best wishes to you both... ByGrace