Frankly,<p>no offense taken. believe me, if i feel any animosity it is directed at companies that either knowingly or unknowingly undermine families by their practices. and this is only part of it.<p>for instance, my family was moved in the middle of 5 conseq. school years.....incredibly difficult for us.<p>or right after our arrival to one of these foreign countries....when i have no knowledge of the language, no car, no friends and no access to money yet, he has been ordered to go to some manager's meeting in a resort while i try and manage with babies in a practically empty apartment.<p>and my offense is with my husband who doesn't just tell them to take a hike....because making waves and is just not his style and he wants to appear the good company man because those are the guys who get promoted in this kind of a screwy system.<p>some of it is determined by the managers. the last one we had did team building in a way that included families. especially in a business like this one, where the wives and children are expected to follow and move so often, we are undoubtedly a part of a good team and when we are included it is good for everyone...especially the company. if things are terrible at home, there is no way my h will be doing a good job at work.<p>what i am suggesting is that my concern cannot be reduced to jealousy....it isn't that simple and not everyone is in a situation where company functions are down the street at a baseball field. for instance, last year there was a managers meeting in a ski resort in Brazil. the wives were not allowed to go....because this was supposed to be a high powered meeting for upper management only. there was no way i could even object to my h going because of the nature of the participants...these were the highest managers in the company. One of the wives said...too bad, i can buy a ticket if i want....turns out that two of these guys brought their mistresses along. so is that the real reason that wives couldn't come....who knows?<p>just understand that because your company's practices are pretty much on the up and up that there are company's like the one i have to deal with that actually provide 'entertainment' for their clients because that's what clients here expect and that i have alot more to be concerned about when that's how little integrity is practiced<p>i'm not in kansas anymore<p>i'll be happy to give you a break....but i hope you will give me one too....because objecting to company functions that are strickly recreational doesn't necessarily mean that jea louse is a jealous shrew who can't trust her husband. <p>recreational companionship is not that important to all men. a man like that can probably go to these functions and it doesn't hurt his relationship a bit. men can have good relationships with their female co workers without getting any further involved. but harley recognizes, and i do too that it is important to alot of men....and for those, it is a real danger to their marriages. i think for a company to ignore that, is looking the other way for the good of company.<p>i wish i had the luxury of knowing that my h was just down the street at a crawfish boil with a bunch of his coworkers, but that's not the world i live in. i won't say i have no emotional insecurity....after all my h has had a couple of indiscretions...that have been horribly painful for me....but i try as much as possible to put things in perspective. his job is important for all of us. and it requires that he spend an incredible amount of time apart from us...once a whole year....but it makes me very intolerant of the extra time they want just to go out and have fun 'team' building. what about my team? <p>i do place the majority of the responsibility on my h....he always has choices....and he has chosen badly. he is the one who is ultimately responsible for meeting his vows....still this stuff just adds fuel to the fire....and makes getting emotional safety much harder for me. <p>i know i can't lock up my h. i know that he is the one who has to choose between what's good for our family and what's good for the company...but it sure does make it harder for him when his absence is a big taboo at these events or he has to appear as though he doesn't want to support his team by saying....wait a minute, i just got back from a two month tour of asia and i can't leave my family....or i think our families ought to be able to go....or i don't agree with this concept. it would be a whole lot easier for all of us if his company might be sensitive to how hard it is to be separated this much. not only do a lose the time to meet his recreational needs....i lose the time to meet all of his needs. it is so very hard. <p> [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

star, I hear you, but I think it's unrealistic to blame the company or to hope the company will change if no one within the company (like, for example, your husband) has the guts to break ranks and make the point that these functions are detrimental to family cohesion and ultimately undermine corporate productivity. After all, the only real concern of any business is the bottom line.<p>You are very bright, and as you have already said, the root of the problem is that your husband has failed to refuse the transfers, and has failed to object to the structure of the off-site outings. I understand the complaint that at a certain level in business the demands made on the worker put unbearable stress on the family, but he's the one who wants to play at that level. I have the brains and ability to be much, much higher up the ladder than I am-- but I'm sitting here on a Saturday morning posting to you from my comfortable but shabby family computer room because I chose to live in a small college town and work 40-45 hours a week and be home every night and not work weekends and to generally live a less pressured, less monetarily rewarding life.<p>Geez, now you've made me look around this room and get really depressed at this mess. Our cleaning lady doesn't even try to clean up in here.<p>There are three choices available to those who disagree with the way things are done in corporate culture-- drop out (like me), buy in, or make noise. Companies didn't adopt the 40 hour work week because they wanted to, and government didn't impose it out of altruism-- workers united, struck, and demanded it. If enough people in your husband's business demanded a change in the culture, it would come. If the best people left because they couldn't stand it, it would change. If everyone just goes along, it will never change.

i agree charynne....i wish he would make noise...but he has to be willing to accept the consequences of standing up....which has been career death for the guys who do have done it in the past....and he's not ready. either that, or he likes it....either way....i'm pretty screwed. <p>but i think i can still take umbrage at a company policy or attitude that creates this enviroment, ignores the potential downside for families, makes it so difficul to complain.... especially since i am powerless to change it and have to accept the consequences of it.<p>so is the the hill i want to die on?...do i say h...stand up even if it means you will slip into career obscurity or lose face. i won't do it. i won't give that kind of ultimatum. not 5 years from his early retirement where he can realize the benefits of all of this sacrifice. i would leave today if he would agree. but i would be cutting his legs off....so what good would that do. it's his problem. but i don't buy into the idea that his company has no responsibility at all. i know it's not a perfect world where companies are going to just look and say....gee, maybe this isn't that good for families...but i know that isn't going to happen without just the kind of upheaval you describe....or do i? there are alot of companies out there that do just that. that do show real caring for families and cosider them part of the team. more and more in fact. i just wish my h worked for one of them.

and besides....a force of one is not very effective, consider this my attempt at raising consciousness about this issue....and raising a little "army" to help promote paractices that support the "whole" team....in the end, it actually does help the "bottom line" because stable families are good for the company, the country, even the world. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

star, I understand... heck, I'm putting up with unfulfilled needs of my own-- I'd much rather be having emotionally revealing conversations with my husband than with you [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] (no offense). And you have every right to take umbrage. But those companies that have made changes didn't do it out of altruism. It didn't just happen that way, someone had to be advocating for it for quite a while before any changes were made.<p>I'm curious, what doesn your husband do for you? You keep a lovely home, raise the children, cook, give him an attractive wife to come home to, support his career, move his toys and underwear from place to place and unpack it for him while he's away on business-- what do you get out of this deal? You don't need his money, and you don't want to live in these exotic locales, so you must be getting something that you want, right?<p>'Cause if you aren't, you could come live in my house. I need someone of independent financial means to keep my domestic life together. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

sex!!! but i'm hoping for more....he's just lucky it's so high on my list and i'm not one of those gals that doesn't even have it on my radar screen. he makes me laugh too....at the world and myself.....i'd like to grow old laughing charynne....i hope we can do it.

How about this one....<p>My H's boss wants to send him to Vegas for the Annual Gentlemen's Club Owners Convention. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>H immediately said, "You do mean two tickets, right?" Boss said, "I do?" H said, while indicating, "Wife. Ring. Two." Boss said, "Oh, OH...yes, two."<p>Bonus points for H realizing that my head would have blown off if he'd told me it was ONE ticket.<p>Extreme...I know...guess it's my job to skew the results curve. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

i love it....good for him(and you laura)!!!!<p>guess it's time to climb down from my little soap box today because my h is coming home tonight and my time on MB will be far more limited. i'll keep that offer in mind Charynne! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ May 04, 2002: Message edited by: starfish4729 ]</p>

Star,<p>that's why I have a 'job'-not a 'career'...when I leave the office at 4:30, my life is mine.<p>Know what's funny that you made me think of? We all know that if there's a will, there's a way. We used to have two co-workers that would meet in the ladies room on an empty office floor and have their 'conversations' there...if ya know what I mean. They didn't need DW to get in trouble.

frankly, and charynne too.....i like that distinction between a job and career, h has used this terminology too....but never quite this way....it is food for thought in terms of my next round of discussions on this topic with h....wonder if he would consider a job instead of career....probably not (his career seems like such an integral part of who he is)....but....still it's a train of logic i have not tried yet. And what really makes it interesting is that in the past one of his arguments was that he didn't have a "job" he had a "career", but i've never made the mental "leap" required to ask...hey, would you consider getting a job instead....i could get one too....and we could live happily ever after?<p>thanks [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

star,
it is important to keep in min, however, that 'jobs' are usually less lucrative than 'careers'...i would do some heavy thinking on this...it's a fabulous luxury to be able to be home when your kids get off the school bus...and i know that moving from country to country is rought but you must admit it does have some benefits that most of us will never experience.<p>It really blows that we just CAN'T have it all.

frankly,<p>you and i don't know eachother too well yet...so you probably don't know.....but i'm lucky in the sense that my beautiful mother left me a serious lot of money when she died....h would never have to work again if he didn't want to and neither would i...but i'd love to teach and keep the same hours as my babies....and h is too proud to let me help with finances. it's about his ego. i like this overseas life...for me....but it's too hard with the kids...the advantages don't outweigh the perks....trust me on this.

Well, it doesn't seem that the intent of my post has been understood.<p>To FRANKLYMYDEARS: My H invites me on over-night business trips AS Dr Harley and other marriage counselors highly recommend. We believe in and have made boundaries in our relationship as per these experts. Issues we had have been resolved long ago. If you read my posts, you will find that I am gathering information as part of my studies. Quote: Actually, I'm a psych student currently studying teambuilding, bonding among employees and attraction theory. Gary Neuman in "Emotional Infidelity" made a negative comment about teambuilding. Alot of teambuilding activities make use of the components that also can lead to attraction such as proximity, reciprocal disclosure, similarity, etc. These factors are most often behind the affairs mentioned on this site. [end of quote]<p>When I read the negative reviews of Neuman's book, many keep haranguing the "jealous" spouse for not trusting. That argument doesn't make sense. It doesn't matter if a spouse is trusting or not. A spouse might trust their unfaithful mate because they are unaware or their activities. It happens all the time. I do agree that someone could be unfaithful no matter what the circumstances are. But that's not what I'm studying. It's more specific. My point is that companies are actually using psychology for "teambuilding" and it's the same psychology that also leads to attraction. Sending people to a place like Disneyland to go on rides with members of the opposite sex is like sending men and women on a date! I know Gary Neuman wouldn't agree that it's right. Perhaps nothing would happen in most cases, but if someone already has an attraction, this setting, by itself, increases opportunity for the attraction to grow. So say the experts and many who have been burned by this type of thing. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Jea,<p>Well, I don't know Mr. Neuman personally and really don't think that any 'experts' have all the answers for all the questions.<p>I was a bit confused on your intent there and apologize. But I will say again, if someone is going to cheat, they are going to cheat. They don't need their jobs to find them an opportunity--they'll do that on their own. <p>I'm sure that 'team building' like most other things has its pros and cons. But I would not try to prevent my h from enjoying an afternoon with his co-workers if the opportunity presented itself. And frankly, I would be very reluctant to display inappropriate behavior at a company function.<p>Star,
Will you adopt me?? [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] If money's not an issue, then I agree that your kids need some stability and that your h should consider your feelings on this. But I know at my job, refusing an offer is 'career suicide'. My biggest thought about work is this: When I'm sucking in my last gasp of air, I doubt that I'll be laying there thinking "Darn, I'm so glad I spent so much time at work instead of with my family."

[quote] Well, it doesn't seem that the intent of my post has been understood. [quote]<p>well, then you need to make yourself more clear, as I, a well educated, well read person, couldn't follow your intent either. . .<p>however, i must also observe your tendency to perceive increased risk as risky or very risky. . . if 0 risk means there is absolutely no chance of an affair, and 100 means affairs abound by the day, then:<p>1. where on the scale is general life in corporate america?<p>2. where on the scale is a corporate trip for a manager/ for an executive. . . . <p>personally, i have been on several, including disneyworld without without W, three with W, now X, and the company invited them, X couldn't go because of her job. . . so i went. . . was there much increased risk?<p>I would say to someone who wants action, yes, to someone who is happy in a marriage, i would say no.<p>however, there is risk in everyday life, some higher, some lower. risk to one is not the same as risk to another. . . so i think your assignment of risk levels must be kept in perspective. . .<p>which is the intent of some of the posters here. . . and along with success of people interactions at a job, i would assume that personal interactions are very similar. . . with that assumption, as you indicate, an increase in the positive activities of the job can lead into personal lives, so the trick in corporate management would be to further understand what type of workers / personality types, etc are more susceptible to abuse, and which aren't.<p>to ban team building in a team environment is very counter productive, but to promote team building, and understand its implications and risks, is the responsibility of the top management. however, as we all know, some teams are better than other teams. . . . life is not fair or equal. . . .<p>wiftty.

All I know for sure is: I have been the partner in my marriage who went on 99.9% of the business trips, participated in professional and community organizations, worked on projects with men (and women), had more than one client flat-out proposition me-- but I remained faithful and my introverted, stay-at-home husband is the one who strayed. I don't believe that such events will lead to affairs. They may provide opportunity, but as has been pointed out, a disused lavatory can also provide opportunity.<p>I was once alone in a recording studio with a very charming, very attractive client. Nothing happened. Attraction? Yes. Opportunity? You betcha. What stopped me--actually, what prevented me from even having the possibility do more than flicker in my mind-- was my commitment to my marriage and my love of my husband. If I didn't have that love and commitment, my guess is that I could have MADE an opportunity if none had presented itself.<p>We're adult human beings. We're not dogs in heat, unable to control ourselves unless dashed with a bucket of cold water.<p>[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Charynne ]</p>