And as long as we're talking gardening...<p>It took two years to maintain this, it will take a while to let it go. It's habit.<p>But, it doesn't take long for weeds to seed. Perhaps you should adopt the dandelion as your personal reminder? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Also, I am one who would like to know how things go, as well.<p>Hoping

bump for Travln_T

DJ,<p>I haven't read all of the posts..but I'd like to advise..if you REALLY love this man as much as you say..then end the relationship with him..<p>maybe someone here can help you write him a No Contact letter, and tell him if he contacts you again you'll be forced to contact his wife..and let her know what is going on..yes, it would devastate her, but no more than her suspecting he's cheating and not knowing for sure..that I think hurts even more..the NOT knowing but suspecting..if it takes getting a restraining order for him to make sure he stays away then do that too...<p>Yes it will hurt like crazy to end the relationship, it will feel like you are being ripped apart inside..but LOVE Yourself even more
and end it..YOU DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS GUY!!!<p>Look at it this way...if he is cheating on his wife now with you and has been for two years..
and now is going to start seeing someone else..
would you ever trust him in a marriage??? Wouldn't you always wonder where he was at night?? <p>And also think about this..if your sleeping w/ ONLY HIM, and he's not only sleeping w/ you but
his wife, and now a third person, and who knows how many others...what type of disease do you want him to give you and his wife??? What disease is YOUR life worth to you??? Is it worth aides? herpes? an STD?? Think about it, what disease do you want to possibly pass on to your children or to your future husband??<p>Just tell the man you've been really thinking about this..and it's time for you to move on with your life..and yes, if that means moving someplace else, changing your phone number, whatever..then do it..

DJ, Read through some of your posts..and in one you asked "why would God allow this to happen?"<p>Well, in my experience it's to teach us a lesson..
It was to teach you some very hard lessons about love and life..and about yourself, <p>We get tempted we can fall..it can test our strength..and we can learn that we all make mistakes, but are still loveable..you can take the things you've learned through this and help others who may begin walking in your shoes, and have compassion for them..<p>1. Your not perfect..
2. Men aren't perfect..
3.we all have weaknesses..
4. you know how much it really hurts to love someone..and let them go..<p>5. You found this site and are learning just
what you want in a relationship..and as you read
more here, you'll learn more about what is most important to you..what your needs are..<p>6. As you look back over the past two years with this man and any other relationships you've had you'll find things you enjoyed in all of them..
and things you hated..take the things you liked about these men..write them down and pray for those qualities in a future mate..

Sometimes I think I'm going to be ok....then other times I feel like I can't live without this guy. But, that must be part of the grieving process. Yes, it is like a death...and I can't let go. I never knew I could hurt this bad. But, I never thought I would lose him...(and if I did, I expected it to be because of his attempt to better his marriage, NOT because he found another OW!!)...I wish I could seen the real him sooner....maybe it pain wouldn't be so bad. How could I be so blind and dumb??<p>Juststartingover, thank you for your kind words. If you do find the thread on grieving, or anything else you think would help, I'd appreciate it so much. All I've done is cry...I've heard of the book you referred to....I should read it.<p>ThornedRose, thank you for your advice as well. I am considering a No Contact letter. In some of my earlier posts, I did mention that his wife was suspicious for some time, as she knew who I was. He never hid the fact that we were "just friends" (as he called it) from her. I realize how painful that must be for her.<p>And yes, I have learned a lesson too. Your list of points were beautiful. #4 is what I hope I'll be able to do, but I don't want to. I especially like #6. This guy had every quality I've ever dreamed of in a man (except for those 2 flaws of lying and cheating!!!). Without those, he would be the "perfect" man, if there was such a thing. No matter how hard I could pray, I don't think there could ever be anyone who I could love as much...<p>And yes, I do feel as if I'm being ripped apart inside. I know it is best to end this and I'm for him that sometime another OW might tell his wife. I'm a kind and loving person...I could never do that to him, even in spite of my pain. I will never hurt him. How can you hurt someone you love??<p>I don't think I could cry any harder than I did last night. All day today I've been so tempted to call his voice mail, just to hear it. All I do is remember the good times we had and how sweet and caring he was...and how he always made me smile, no matter how sad I was.<p>I never mentioned that although he lives 20 miles away, he works close to where I live and work (moving or quitting my job is not an option). Occasionally, we'd spot each other on the road, and my job often brings me into contact with his place of business, so it is unavoidable that I'll see him. But, since he may not want contact with ME (due to his new interest in OW2), maybe that won't be a problem.<p>Although I've been trying hard to focus on what this guy really is....a liar, cheater, user, betrayer (and so much more), I still can't hate him. I can even say he is an uncaring jerk, and leave a trail of broken hearts in his path. Is he worthy of this pain I feel? I doubt he feels any pain or sense of loss as I do; he may have moved on to the "excitement" of OW2. I can say bad things about him, but it doesn't stop the hurt. I still love him deeply. (Guess it is time to let those weeds starting taking control of the garden....)<p>And maybe there is hope for me after all; especially knowing that I have the support of so many wonderful people. I am trying to be strong and keep telling myself that I can do this.<p>He always told me that he doesn't want to hurt me...and I always told him that he couldn't. Well, fact is...HE didn't hurt me....I hurt myself by becoming so involved.<p>Now, with everyone's help, I realize how deceiving he was....that's funny, because he always said that honesty in our relationship was important to him. He stressed that so many times. So, naturally I believed every word he said....even knowing that he told those "little white lies" at home. Looking back, I wonder just how many lies he told me.<p>A few months ago when he said he didn't love me, it hurt because I was sure he did. But it was ok, too. (Hey, he was honest on that one...got to give him credit for that, I guess!). As long as he cared for me, I was happy; it didn't have to be love. As long as we spent time together I could accept his feelings. But now, I don't even have that caring....just thinking about him always made me smile...now I cry....without him, life doesn't look bright anymore....

Dj,<p>I wish I could seen the real him sooner....maybe it pain wouldn't be so bad. How could I be so blind and dumb?<p>TR-You DID SEE THE SIGNS!!! You just choose to ignore them--<p>1. He's married to someone else..<p>How Much bigger of a sign do YOU need??? <p>It doesn't make you dumb..just young with Life's lessons still to learn..<p>DJ-I realize how painful that must be for her.<p>TR- Add about 100 times the hurt you feel and you may begin to understand how his wife will feel..when she finds out..she's been with him for how many years? she's trusted him and had his children..depended on him to be there for her emotionally, I wonder how many times she's needed him emotionally and he wasn't there..(and this from someone who had the Emotional affair, I was betrayed emotionally long before I did, and should have left my marriage before I hit that)<p>And yes, I have learned a lesson too. Your list of points were beautiful. #4 is what I hope I'll be able to do, but I don't want to. I especially like #6. This guy had every quality I've ever dreamed of in a man (except for those 2 flaws of lying and cheating!!!). Without those, he would be the "perfect" man, if there was such a thing. No matter how hard I could pray, I don't think there could ever be anyone who I could love as much...<p>TR- And in some ways your right..you could never love someone as much..but you can love someone more..But, You must learn to love yourself first..
and learn that you deserve to be treated with respect..and this man does not respect you..
nor his wife not even himself-- <p>trust me..I've been in his shoes..and I know I had no respect for myself, nor my ex..and I also know my ex had no respect for me or himself..by how he treated me and how he treats his own body, and I beleived I deserved to be treated that way..I have learned to have that respect for myself, and that I deserve to be treated w/ respect..which is the biggest reason I am no longer married..I don't hate my ex..I hate how he treated me, and himself..and how I treated him and myself in return..I know that I have changed..and he hasn't and I couldn't continue to allow myself to be treated that way..if I did..I would be responsible for continuing to hurt myself..then I'd be the stupid one for staying and allowing the abuse to continue..<p>DJ-And yes, I do feel as if I'm being ripped apart inside. I know it is best to end this and I'm for him that sometime another OW might tell his wife. I'm a kind and loving person...I could never do that to him, even in spite of my pain. I will never hurt him. How can you hurt someone you love??<p>TR- Hmmmmm....Read over the posts on this sight..
read up on LOVE BUSTERS!!! We hurt those we love out of not understanding, lack of communication skills, and treating each other with respect..<p>DJ-I don't think I could cry any harder than I did last night. All day today I've been so tempted to call his voice mail, just to hear it. All I do is remember the good times we had and how sweet and caring he was...and how he always made me smile, no matter how sad I was.<p>TR- Also remember he's married..and he's lied to you over the years..<p>Although I've been trying hard to focus on what this guy really is....a liar, cheater, user, betrayer (and so much more), I still can't hate him. I can even say he is an uncaring jerk, and leave a trail of broken hearts in his path. Is he worthy of this pain I feel? I doubt he feels any pain or sense of loss as I do; he may have moved on to the "excitement" of OW2. I can say bad things about him, but it doesn't stop the hurt. I still love him deeply. (Guess it is time to let those weeds starting taking control of the garden....)<p>TR- You don't have to hate him...hate what he's done..hate the actions..not the person..<p>
even knowing that he told those "little white lies" at home. Looking back, I wonder just how many lies he told me.<p>TR- Little White Lies??? What classifies as a Little White Lie?? A lie is a lie is a lie..and he's probably told you many..<p>A few months ago when he said he didn't love me, it hurt because I was sure he did. But it was ok, too. (Hey, he was honest on that one...got to give him credit for that, I guess!). As long as he cared for me, I was happy; it didn't have to be love. As long as we spent time together I could accept his feelings. But now, I don't even have that caring....just thinking about him always made me smile...now I cry....without him, life doesn't look bright anymore....<p>TR- Your life will seem brighter now..because Now you are free to meet a wonderful man who is single and available to spend ALL their time with you..
and not just give you a little piece of what he thinks you deserve..They will be able to give you
ALL of themselves..and not just pieces..You are now able to climb up to the table of life and order your own steak dinner...not just settle for table scraps..

Hang in, DJ. You only have to make it through one minute at a time. That's what pulls me through often, when the tidal wave is hanging offshore... I can do this for one minute. And the minutes do go by....<p>I am a personality of all-or-nothing, black-or-white so often I do sort of overweight things, if you see what I mean. However, to me the lies MM tells his BW are not small or white. They're huge and very very black indeed. Saying he was "just friends" with you is a most enormous lie. And on that foundation he built a series of castles of lies about the time he spent with you and his other OW.<p>TR put it well: you don't have to hate the person, but look at the actions, at the fruits. <p>Will look for that thread today.<p>Cyberhug.

I just have one question: If he is such a model husband and father, when does he find the time for all three women: his wife, you and OW#2? Does he have a job? I find it incredible from what you described.

Well, ThornedRose, I can add you to the list of those sharing such good advice! With everyone's help, I am beginning to look at this guy differently. But, its another bad night....I'm crying so hard....I don't think I can make it without him....and I'm trying, I really am.....<p>Yes, I did choose to ignore the signs (and there were many). But I'm not that young, so I should have known better. His daily attention and contact overwhelmed me. Maybe it showed my lack of self-respect too...if all I could have were "pieces" of him, it was ok...being the OW, I certainly didn't deserve more. I greatly respected his family situation, and knew his place was with them, not me, which made time with him even more precious. I did this to myself. HE did nothing to cause me pain...he was a temptation that I wasn't strong enough to resist.<p>He has been married for 19 years. But, I do believe that he has always been there (and always will be there) for his wife emotionally (and physically), as his family is most important to him. I believe he would NEVER leave them under ANY circumstances.<p>Our time together was usually quick (sometimes VERY quick). He made it clear that he had a family waiting for him. In our relationship, he took on the role of being "the boss"....we only met on his terms...when it was convenient for HIM. Without a doubt, he was the leader in this relationship.<p>And yes, a lie is a lie; ugly, dark and enormous. I didn't mean for it to sound like I take lying lightly. I don't. Since he stressed honesty so often, its hard to believe that he lied to me too. But now, given the circumstances, I'm sure he did. At home, he found ways to "stretch the truth" a bit so it didn't really seem like a lie. But, that doesn't make it right.<p>Juanita opened my eyes to what this man really is...a serial cheater. It is a sad fact which I hate to admit, but it is obvious. I don't think one woman could EVER satisfy him. (Thinking back to the beginning of our relationship, he made it clear that he wouldn't become physical if I had "slept around" before meeting him. I didn't think much of it before, but now I know why...) He did admit to me that he had 2 "incidents" before me...only 2???? I knew he enjoyed what we shared and never thought he would want to be with anyone else (other than his wife). How wrong I was again!!<p>With OW2, he claims that she was "sending him signals" that she wants to become physical...it wasn't HIM instigating anything, it was her, and he won't refuse. That could be true, he is irresistable. But long ago, he mentioned that I "sent him signals" too and we joked about it....think there could be a pattern here??<p>I don't want to believe this either, but I'm almost starting to feel that he gets involved with hardly any feelings at all....to him it just satisfies a physical need...(ok, he said he cared for me a great deal...ha) When the time comes he is ready to move on to OW3, 4, 5, or whatever, whenever he feels ready for a change. That is funny too, because I always thought of us as "making love"...not just "having sex" for the physical pleasure of it.<p>As for his wife, I'm almost certain that she knows he has a problem. She does keep a very close watch on him....calling his cell phone often and wanting to know exactly where he is at and when he'll be home. I always got the impression that she checks up on him....now I can see why.<p>It is interesting that when their second child was born (13 yrs. ago), it was a mutual decision to not have any more kids. She encouraged him to get "fixed"....although he says he was reluctant, he agreed to do so to make her happy. Maybe since he'd never have to worry about explaining an OC, that was the dose of "freedom" he needed to begin filling his curiosity for women. Maybe too, thats why she doesn't trust him.<p>One more realization I've come to...it hurts, but I'm not sure he is capable of loving anyone. Oh, he claims he loves his wife dearly (and I hope it is true), but is it really love when he commits the ultimate sin (adultery) against her?? Putting her on that pedestal at home for all to see "proves" (at least to himself) his great "love" for her....but is it real??<p>In spite of the pain I feel from all this, my heart goes out to his wife. It appears he covers up his disgusting behavior by catering to her and telling her (and everyone else) how very much he loves her. It seems to be his way of "making things right" with her....and again, another lie.<p>Well, its been a week since I've heard from him, so I haven't had the chance to tell him its over. I'm beginning to think that contact from him is HIS way of telling ME its over.<p>I've never been a BS (as many of you have), but now I know how unbearable the pain must be. Loving someone shouldn't cause so much hurt. Taking it one minute at a time, as Justartingover said, seems like the only way to deal with it....but oh, those minutes can be long and seem to last forever! I feel so guilty too, for causing his wife even more suspicion and pain than she already must have had. I wouldn't want anyone to have to suffer this pain.<p>I cry so hard, then I stop and think I'll be ok....life doesn't seem worth living without him. I don't need that steak dinner...with him in my life I'd be happy for those table scraps.
Am I crazy to think that way???<p>A note to Like Water For Chocolate: Incredible it is!! As you can imagine, he is constantly on-the-go. He holds a full-time physically demanding job, attends his kids school functions, plays the role of "taxi" driver for them and their friends, runs errands for his wife and kids, does household chores, and STILL manages to find a few short minutes for himself. He ALWAYS amazed me!!! Could be that's why he was so easy to love!! He always fit everyone into his busy schedule...and never complained!!

No, although I can never hate him, I am trying hard to hate the actions, the fruits of what he's done...but I just can't do it.

djmusicbox:<p>I admire you courage to post here. I also admire your desire to do the right thing. I think people sometimes lose sight of the fact that SOME people really DO want to do the right thing.<p>My advice would be short and simple:<p>Terminate all contact. Move if nessesary. Start a new life and meet someone to settle down and get married with. Now that you have made this mistake you should be able to identify the type in the future.<p>Get out. Get away. Pursue the American dream and family.<p>That's all.
Scott

I want to add:<p>Love has stages. The most passonate and expressive stage is the infatuation stage.<p>Every person that we are infatuated with seems like the "end all and be all" in our lives. The problem with affairs is that the people get stuck in the infatuation stage and so it never has time to settle down into anything else.<p>Mark my words that if you end this now... you will find someone else within the next year or two that will make you wonder what you ever saw in this person. Then you can be in an infatuation stage with him, and it can settle down and grow into deeper lasting love.<p>Scott

You've said many times about how his wife does not send him cards or anything for his birthday, and doesn't join him in his activities.<p>That's one side of the story, and here's a probable other side.<p>This is not the first time he has done this. He spends time with other women, sometimes many at once. It hurts. She realizes her place in his life, at least on some level. It hurts really bad, and she begins to withdrawal, to spare herself the pain. The pain of you don't know what. There are many things between a H and W that only they know. He's so busy meeting other's needs, his, his kids, umpteen other women... Where is the time for his wife's needs? Her emotional needs? We cannot begin to guess what they are, but we can be relatively sure that they are not being met.<p>If my husband did this, it would probably be a cold day in h*** before he got a birthday card, either. And join him and OW and kids at activities? Monkeys would fly out my butt first.<p>I'm not meaning to rip on you, it's him that promised to be there for her and isn't. You, however, are an enabler to that. You are being ran over in the meantime. You saw all these wonderful sides to him, and no wonder, it was his wife that got to see the bad. And while you were seeing the wonderful, she didn't get to.<p>As for your hurt, well, you are hurting very badly, I can tell. You probably do think that you can't live without him, at least at times. The fact is that you lived without him before and you can again. It will be painful to learn, but you can.<p>You say this is like a death, but it's not. In some ways it's worse. When someone dies, we CANNOT contact that person at all. Eventually, we heal. We are not the same as we were before, but we heal. In this case, you CAN contact him. He is not physically out of reach. This makes it so much harder to control your own actions. You must stop contact with him, however. You have to, otherwise each day the little bit you heal, you will erase by re-opening the wound. It's hard, but you can do it. <p>Once you heal and are ready to move forward, you can find a relationship that is much more fulfilling for you. Someone who DOES love you, and says so. Someone who comes home to you, not his wife and kids. You deserve it and you are worth it. Next time remember the golden rule of dating: Never get involved with someone who isn't 100% available. You deserve that availability. Do yourself a favor and read "The Real Rules" by BarbaraDe Angelis, Phd. It is great for helping you to see what you deserve, and understand what to avoid on the road to a fulfilling relationship.<p>Hang in there. Make tiny goals, aka, "I will not call his voice mail today." Stick to them, and succeed one day at a time. I'm pulling for you!

I have not read all of these posts. I was wondering....does his wife know? I'd sure want to know if my H was with 2 different woman. I appreciate your honesty.<p>Your pain will subside, I know it's hard. Watching my H mope over his OW was terrible and it scars me to this day. I'm glad we saved our marriage, but it's not easy.

Scott, yes, I do want to do the right thing. But for many reasons, moving and starting a new life isn't quite possible (I would if I could). So, I'll just have to make the best of it and do what I can. You can't imagine how sorry I am for getting into this situation. <p>Takola, from what I've gathered (and not only from him), his wife has NEVER given him a card, even when they were first married. (In fact, she doesn't even acknowledge her kids birthdays that much!) I really believe he does meet his wife's needs...he is there whenever she wants him there. <p>You are right....I did live without him before and I will again (at least I hope I will). I agree that it is worse than death. And I do understand your point about healing and re-opening the wound. I will look for the book you mentioned too, it sounds interesting.<p>The tiny goals you suggested are a good starting point....and thanks for pulling for me!!<p>Maggierose, it seems his wife has been suspicious for a long time. She checks up on him often and wants to know his whereabouts every minute he is not working. I can imagine the pain of watching your H mope over the OW, but I'm glad your marriage was saved. It must be very difficult and painful to be in that situation. But you survived it, and that is what's important!!

I have been reading here for a while now. Please don't think this is an attack on you alone.........many of us here are guilty of the same speech patterns which end up creating our own reality. What do I mean? Read on....<p>You say things like you want to get over him but you can't. (We know it is painful, very hard to do, etc)<p>There are two words in there that you have total control over....BUT and CAN'T.<p>Stop adding BUT to your statements.....you want to get over him.............do it! Yes you can, really!!! If only you allow yourself the freedom to let go.<p>And, using the word CAN'T. Substitute that for won't because there is no such thing as can't. Everybody CAN do stuff, they choose not to. <p>Here is a new mantra for you:<p>I want to get over him.........and I WILL!!!!!!!<p>And, by the way, why wait for a call to tell him it is over, why not write a no contact letter to him?<p>Love and light,<p>Jacky

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Takola, from what I've gathered (and not only from him), his wife has NEVER given him a card, even when they were first married. (In fact, she doesn't even acknowledge her kids birthdays that much!) I really believe he does meet his wife's needs...he is there whenever she wants him there. <hr></blockquote><p>Perhaps she doesn't do birthdays much. Hard to say why, as I have several friends of different religions that refuse to celebrate them. However, no matter her behavior or her reasons for it, it is very clear that her needs are not being met. How could her needs fully and truly be met with other women in her H's life? If you've read HNHN, then you know at least one of the needs is Honesty, which she is not getting AT ALL, so we know right off the bat that there is at least one EN not being met. I'd bet good money on the fact that there are several more.<p>Whether or not this is the case, it is still H's job to meet his wife's needs. His wife's needs exclude you and other OW. <p>
You love him, and you see him through the filter. It's hard, but you must try not to. Either way, you will still love him. You show amazing resilience, so I believe that you will be free of this. It hurts and hurts and hurts and hurts. And it will hurt some more. You can do it!

Hi DJMB,
I've been thinking about you, and the issue that's really troubling me is something that Zorweb said once. When she left her second abusive marriage, she went to a women's shelter, and then she got into counselling. She asked her therapist: "Why do I always pick these men?" and the therapist said "You don't pick them. They choose you."<p>She went on to explain how user/abuser people select their prey. They test their boundaries, first with something small, but something that people with healthy boundaries and self-respect would not permit. If you allow this, they move in a step, and keep moving, trying bigger and bigger tests until they're sure of you.<p>I am concerned about you, because you seem to be a genuinely nice, gentle, sincere person. I've reread this thread, and realised that you are extremely vulnerable to this kind of predator. <p>In your case, there were many many little tests, and you DID give MM signals. First he told you he was married. You didn't back off and put up a fence. Then he started complaining to you about his W, very subtly at first. Instead of telling him it's inappropriate to discuss his marital problems with an outsider, and that he and his wife should rather seek counselling, you "felt sorry for him" and let your eyes shine with pity. You started telling him how much you admired him for being so self-sacrificing and so giving, so noble and so loving. Then he started asking you to accompany him AND HIS KIDS on recreational trips, antiquing, music, for ice-cream or whatever.That was a serious warning had you been alert to it - this is a man with no respect for either his wife or his kids, bringing a strange woman into his FAMILY group, into "surrogate wife" position. And you went... he was actually using his kids as cover for his pursuit of you, do you see that? <p>He started touching you, and you moved closer instead of away. Once you started having sex, it was all about him, right? Do this to me, do that for me, expect nothing from me, I can only stay for a few minutes so you have to pleasure me. Run these errands for me so we can have a few minutes together, I have to get home to my W and kids, although I am planning to spend some time with another OW first. After all, she's sending me signals and I can't possibly refuse to respond inappropriately....<p>Hon, do you see what I'm getting at? Not that he's a serial cheater, but that you CAN and MUST protect yourself now and in the future both from him and from others of this kind. You need to protect yourself from your own weaknesses.<p>Please check out www.codependents.org, and if you haven't read "Women Who Love Too Much" it would be a good start. The Harville Hendrix material is also great. <p>I am a recovering codependent myself, so I am speaking from experience. It's hard, but it can be done, and the rewards are enormous!! Being a whole person who lives in truth is so much nicer than being half an apple rolling around looking for another half to make it whole...

juststartingover,<p>I think you just described my ow...but why are these MM choosing her? Or is she the predator? I don't mean to get answers for this, just something I was thinking.<p>I think this is important. Thank you for sharing this.<p>I have noticed a temptation in me to "love too much," but thank the Lord, I have had presence or mind or something that causes me to distance myself when things like that happen.<p>But I still feel it's a problem I don't want to have.<p>Thank you for sharing this (and Zorweb).<p>Hoping

Hi,
My FWH's XOW was described by my psychiatrist as a "classic predator" which really set my mind at ease, as I'd been feeling so guilty about "labelling" her and worrying that I was projecting my insecurities onto her, and trying to find a way to get my FWH off the hook. But she was the one who made all the running, and the tactics she used are "poor little me, I'm a victim of this hard cruel world," "you're the only man I've ever really loved" (despite being unfaithful to him when they were together, and despite 3 engagements to other men after they broke up and before he met me), "I need you so much, I can't live without you," "It was a mistake for you to marry your W, but you don't have to live with that mistake. The honest thing would be for you to tell your W it's a mistake." "Your W doesn't really love you and she'll soon get over it."<p>So, women can also be predators, some of them extremely fierce. I'm not saying they, or male predators, do this on a conscious level. What they do do, which is related to narcissism, is seek to meet their own needs and make themselves feel good without ever considering whether what they want is legal, good for them, or good for the people they're involved in. It's all about what they want and how doing these things makes them feel.<p>Women who have a history with MM are choosing them on some level. Maybe it makes them feel good and superior to be able to "win" a man from his wife. Maybe they feel it's a safe way to get their own needs met while not having to actually commit or put anything into the relationship. Maybe they're rescuers, what Robin Norwood calls "the Wendy syndrome" and want to save Peter Pan.