Hey Djmb, my comments above do not apply to you! You don't have a HISTORY of pursuing married men. MM does have a HISTORY of pursuing OW, so that does strongly indicate predator qualities.

Jacky, thank you for all that positive thinking! I will try to focus on how I CAN do it, rather than how I CAN'T (or won't)!<p>Why am I waiting for him to call? I'm not sure, really. I have drafted a no contact letter, but I guess I'd rather let HIM be the one to say its over (by not contacting ME). As silly as it sounds, it would break my heart even more to hurt him....<p>Maybe too, by waiting, I'm building courage and reinforcing my belief that getting out of this situation is the right thing to do.<p>Ok, Takola, I'll agree that he is not meeting all of his wife's needs; especially honesty. Marriage is a two-way street...and I don't think she's been meeting his needs either (even before he began his escapades with OW).<p>As for my amazing resilience, all I can say is I'm trying....whenever I feel weak, I think about all the great support I'm getting from everyone here....it means the world to me!!!!!!<p>Juststartingover, you had me worried for a second! I'm glad you see that I am NOT one of those women who are out to destroy a marriage. I do believe that some women can be predators, and can be extremely fierce ones, at that!! As for me, I am so unlike the typical image of an OW, it isn't even funny!! No one I know would ever believe I got into this situation....<p>From reading your reply, I see I was vulnerable to him; and I must have given him those signals (without even realizing it). In doing that, I fell right into his web. I hate to think of him as a "predator", but I'm beginning to realize that he is. He preys upon women who are "too darn nice" and will give him sympathy and compassion. (And he is such a "player" at the game too....a real sweetheart, filled with lots of little surprises just to let you know he's thinking of you....it just makes you like him even more....and fills that Love Bank to the brim!!!!) Wow, some of the things you mentioned were so true, it almost seemed like you were there with us!<p>I do see what you're getting at. I need to work on my own weaknesses and become less vulnerable to those more powerful than I. I will try to do it. Thank you for sharing Zorweb and for your references to the website and Harville Hendrix, too!<p>I'm am taking this one minute and one day at a time.....

Hi DJMB,<p>I feel for you. I read your posts and I can tell your experiencing the same pain as a BS. I'm a BS and feel the same pain your describing. The difference is your relationship cannot possible go anywhere positive for you or him. True love is equally given and returned. I promise you that you will never feel fully satisfied or fulfilled with the love he’s returning. You deserve better. <p>Brutal Honesty:
Wow! This guy’s good. I find it amazing how he is able to control you. It’s almost like you’re under his spell. He can do almost anything he wants to you and you’re there for him. He needs to write a book, because he’s a master at manipulation! He’s got the beginnings of a harem…Everyman’s dream, but I feel sure that most women would agree this is a nightmare.<p>Withdraw is painful, but if you maintain no contact you will get through this. If not, you return to square one and it all starts over again. You deserve better!<p>Take Care and God Bless,
L&F

Hi L&F:
Yes, in many ways I do feel like a BS. The thought of him with his wife was ok, thats where he should be, but another OW???? That just tears me apart! <p>And yes, I really was under his spell. Don't know how that happened, either, as its never happened before with me. The only thing I can think of were those eyes of his....such an intense, piercing look...I swear they looked right through me and hypnotized me! From the second they looked at me, it happened. <p>He SHOULD write a book...he's got all the answers, all the lines, all the right "moves" to make it a best-seller. And I agree, most women would find this a nightmare. I wish I could talk to the other 2 OW he had before me....wonder if our stories would be similar?<p>Thanks for your reply and hang in there too!

If his wife doesn't know...and he has had at least 2 OW....she's being exposed to the threat of stds. I'm sure he's probably had more other women also.<p>Don't you think that somehow she should know?

Hi dj<p>Been thinking about you. I am proud of you for knowing you are responsible for the pain you feel. That's a truly heathy and strong insight, and one so many people will not accept for themselves, know what I mean? So many who's decisions and actions bring hurtful and harmful conciquences blame others, or circumstances. I feel as you do, I am 100% to blame for any pain and trouble I feel/have because of my relationship with the MM I was involved with.<p>I bring this up though because there is also a danger in this attitude, and I fight it too, as you do. The problem comes when we don't then feel the anger we should at how these MM's treated us (and while my MM was basically very good to me - considering - I still wasn't being treated as I should be, deserve to be, I was just in a pleasanter "trap", where he got what he wanted/needed from me at my expense, ya know?) and keeps us from giving them the natural conciquences of their actions towards us. Do you see what I'm getting at here? We ARE completely responsible for our choices and our actions, and the bad things those brought us, we wouldn't have been taken advantage of unless we allowed it, HOWEVER that doesn't mean we shouldn't also see the actions of these men towards us, and feel their actions towards us are not respectable, not tolerable, and we should feel anger about that, and lose respect for that. We may feel we understand and sympathize, but that does not mean an honorable, truly caring man would take advantage of that. Sure, it's our own fault we allowed it, but that doesn't mean we let these guys off the hook for what they did either, ya know?<p>It isn't healthy to hang on to anger, to nurse it and jealously guard it, BUT you and me we SHOULD feel anger and find our anger at these guys, or at least some of what they have done, because the anger gives us strength and is a motivator to help us do and hold on to what we SHOULD and NEED to do. It is a danger for you and me to forgive and understand too much, to blame only ourselves, because that is how we stay with these guys, how we don't have the strength of will to break away, how we keep ourselves martyring ourselves for what is best for them and what they want.<p>Finding our anger, holding it for now, will help us have the strength to do and keep doing what we should, break away from these me. I know it's hard, I have a very hard time remaining angry at my MM, but it's when have anger at how things were for me in this relationship that I am most detirmined to keep myself out of it now.<p>You mentioned you wanted HIM to break things off, I understand this feeling also, I tried that for a long while, hoping he would finally do the right and honest thing and break things off - but he never would have. Your MM won't either, very unlikely. He may distance himself from you for a while while he pursues this other OW, but he will keep the door open to return to you, and chances are he will. It's ok I think if you don't directly break things off with him, but that you need to make sure at the same time that you are determined never to have contact with him again. Send the no contact letter or don't, but next time he attempts to contact you, and he will, DO NOT talk to him.<p>Do not weaken and call his voice mail either to hear his voice, that kind of thing only keeps your emotions involved, it's hard I know, but don't let yourself do that sort of thing, let your emotions gradually lessen, and don't then stir them back to the surface with that sort of thing.<p>Here's a trick I try to use, when I think about my MM in good ways, or feeling sad about him, upset, etc I try hard to distract myself. DJ there will be plenty of time later for you to go through the situation and your feelings to sort things out for yourself to learn from later when your feelings are not so raw - don't do it now, don't analyse what went wrong, what you did wrong, or anything, just keep yourself distracted and refuse to let yourself sink into depression and pain. Only when I start thinking about certain things and feeling anger do I let myself think about him, because that helps keep me from going back into that situation. It would be so easy for me to contact him and ask to go back, say I'll accept what he wants me to just to have him in his life. It's my anger and my pride and my self worth that helps me during those times, so I try hard to focus on that for now.<p>juststartingover - thank you so much for what you said to dj about these men chosing us. That turned a light bulb on in my head. I've had bad guys in my life before, but honestly could not accept the idea that I choose guys like that. I did not, I tried hard to choose good, nice guys who would love me back and treat me well. But the thought that I was chosen as an easy target for those who would use me makes much more sense, as I have always been an open and honest person, forgiving and understanding, willing to work through difficulties, etc and I do think I seemed an easy target. The problem with that is these guys missed the fact that I am also pretty smart and savvy, have an inner strength and good sense of self worth, and it might appear on the surface I could be easily duped, may even work for a while while I figured things out, but I'd definately stick up for myself when it became clear they didn't care about me and were only using me. I sincerely feel it wasn't so much that there was something in myself seeking men who would treat me bad, but that some of the good qualities in myself set me up to be easy prey - at least at first - for me who were merely users.<p>dj - I don't feel my MM is a bad guy, I think he's a good guy who has real problems. I know he sincerely loved me. That makes it hard for me sometimes to feel anger towards him, I'm not angry at HIM really, because I understand what it was in him that allowed him to get himself - and involve me, in this situation. But I can still be angry that the situation took so much from me, be angry he didn't care enough to see that he was asking me to give so much, for so little. So you certainly can be angry at your MM for expected you to take what he dishes out and still stay on his string for when he wants what you give him. Even though we are completely responsible for allowing it. <p>Hope my ramblings have helped you some. I know this is very hard, believe me I know. I have been trying for a while now to somehow break us out of this situation, and we couldn't stick to it. I'm hoping this time will be it, neither of us can take much more of the emotional roller coaster we've been on, it's taken it's toll on my MM too, so I think this time we will finally stick to it, because I think this time he is as tired as I am, LOL. And, I am stronger because I can't keep doing this any more, regardless of my feelings for him.<p>take care, and keep us posted.<p>Juanita

Hi DJ,<p>Have been following your threads quietly for some time, but rather scared to reply. I was in your shoes in January, loving a MM, but desperately wanting out of this unfair, destructive relationship. But loving him so much that I felt I did not have the power to resist him. I tried (half heartedly) for a few months before this to break it off. But that sweet face always appeared with flowers and words of undying love. Boy, was I a sucker for a smooth talker ! I FEEL every word of pain that you speak of.I honestly do.
This site gave me great strength to see a way out.Several people were kind, several were not. I know this is not a site for OW. But 3 people are involved in an A, so 3 people need to work on an end to this crisis.
A few things helped me, and I do not even know where to start. You probably do not want all the sorted details of my A, but they can be found in some of my threads here. I was probably at the lowest point of my life when I came to this site. I needed help to end it, not continue my A.<p>The number ONE thing that worked and continues to hold me committed to my no contact, was meeting with his wife.At this point I knew I could not continue this anymore.We talked calmly, rationally, as 2 women who loved the same man.She was incredible! Not confrontational and I so respect her for standing up for herself and her H.<p>The second thing that helped hold me accountable was my "no contact" letter. I was in control of this relationship for the first time since we came together. I did not wait for him to break it off.Now, keep in mind I did love this man beyond words. My letter was short, sweet, but firm.I informed him that I was in contact with his wife and would continue to do so if he contacted me at all. I cried for days, for the reasons you described "how could I hurt him so much?". I contemplated suicide ( I am also a sane, rational 41 year old professional woman....this scared me).
Next, I got busy. I had lost 10 lbs in my depression ( already too skinny before that!).So, I joined the gym. I said "I am too exhaused and unhappy to go work out". But , you know what ? I have never felt so energetic, so healthy in my life. I work out 6 days a week, and have gained 10 lbs back, with 5 more to go.I have muscles, and I like what I see when I look in a mirror. It started out as a great distraction (those evenings waiting for his car to pull in the yard are pretty painful and long, right?).I have met some great people there who applaud my pounds ! Now, a good friend on this site accused me of "running away" from my pain, and he was probably right in the beginning. But, I started to at least feel better, I was distracted from the pain. This started me seeing that there was life after this great love.<p>Next, after a month of no contact, and I started to feel a tiny bit stronger,I took a suggestion from my friend here, who suggested i write an apology letter to his W. THAT was beyong tough.I read it and kept it, and read it some more before finally mailing it. That was in February. Part of the greiving process is forgiveness. I had to ask her forgiveness.Again, I can not turn back now. I am accountable to her again.
Yes, there are days when all I want is him in my arms. But I look where I was in January, and I see truly how far I have come.I REFUSE to take one step backwards.<p>It has been almost 4 months since I have seen him, with only one professional phone call this month( our jobs sometimes cross)He did not necessarily know it would be me he was going to talk to.The end of the call he says "By the way, your letter really helped my wife.Thank you." So I cried all the way home from work, but not because I missed him, but because his marriage is mending.And I did the right thing.<p>Trust me DJ, you will get through this. It really is a day by day by day thing.I have a weak day every now and then, but come back to MB and find some strength to keep moving forward. I know , the BS think this is no place for OW, but they are helping us work through our mistakes. Just being angry at us only gets us all hostile and defensive. That does not get anybody anywhere.It took this site to get me over my MM ( who by the way was never "mine").<p>And I am not over him yet. It does take time to grieve, and we all cope at different speeds, at different levels.Yes, I still love him. But I will not be so unkind to myself to put myself in a situation where I do not get everything I deserve in a relationdship.<p>You are strong (so am I ), so I know what you are feeling.Keep putting one foot in front of the other, do not look behind you. There is life ahead, where I did not think it existed.
Keep up the good work.<p>Mary

I'm thinking of you dj, how are you doing today? Hang in there.<p>Juanita

Well, one more MBer jumping in. Like you haven't had enough, huh!<p>It's glad to see you making up your mind to get out of this relationship. It's not only the right choice because it's morally wrong to be with a MM, but think about it, do you believes he LOVES you? Not a chance! He loves you so much that he's willing to hurt you because he wants to ahve sex with even more women. One aspect to measure love is sacrificing. This man has no desire to sacrifice ANYTHING of himself for anyone. He's a selfish person, the least to say.<p>Beside not loving you, bviously he doesn't hold any respect for you that he can openly tell you he wants more relationship. Could he do it to his W? No! He can sneak around her to ahve affair but would never has the guts to openly admit to it.<p>I'm sure by now you have seen that he only used you. ANd only one truthful thing I believe he told you is that he does NOT love you.<p>Think about those recent days you haven't seen him, you are hurting, you are in pain, you feel like dying would be better than living, ... You know what he's doing? He's probalby is excited to get to the new adventure with the OW#2. Does he has any moment of regret how much he hurts you? Maybe not. After all, you're jsut another OW.<p>JMB, God doesn't punish you. When we are in our bottom of despair, we might often think that way, but there are choice and consequences. I'm sorry that your life has turned out this way, but the choice you made has led you to this situation. The worse choice, the worse situation. <p>You can overcome it! I know you can! I remember something I read before:
"Think you can, or think you can't, either way, you are right!"<p>I've seen many broken hearts on this site, whose spouses mistreat or left them, ect; and their causes were more "just" than yours. And they all eventually could move on. I'm not trying to down play your pain, but no matter hwo painful it is, it's possible to change your life around.<p>Be strong and good luck!<p>[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: jomin ]</p>

Hi DJ and Juanita,
I finally found the thread I was looking for! Please don't be put off by the title; there's some really valuable stuff in there about resentment, grieving, loss and choicemaking. The url is www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004579.html<p>I hope you are both well. DJ, you're too quiet.... <p>Hang in, we can do it.

Well, here I am with another long-winded thread....sorry for that, but I've got lots to comment on. I'm still hanging in there! Thanks everyone for the replies. <p>Maggierose, I believe his wife knows what he is doing, which is why she "checks up" on him so often. I do know her somewhat, and it would be very hard for me to tell her what is going on. I've already caused her so much pain. Ok, I should tell her, but I don't want to be the one to do it.<p>Juanita, as someone who's been there, your insight is more than welcome. Your point about being angry did make a lot of sense and I totally understand and agree with it. But, I still don't feel the anger I should feel towards him. He holds such a special place in my heart that I don't think I could EVER be angry at him....no matter what he did. I really try hard to (and Jomin's thread should help me do it), but I just won't let myself. It would be so much easier if I COULD get angry at him....I'd have no problem in ending this. What is wrong with me that I can't be upset with him???? How do I become angry at him??<p>Since this is my first (and last) involvement with a MM, it is all so very confusing to me. I know I should be angry, but I'm not. I know I shouldn't love him, but I do. I know I should never be with him again, but I want to be. I was in a different world with him, where everything was beautiful. Everything seemed so right and "perfect" with him, when yet it was all so very wrong at the same time. How can that be possible???? <p>Interesting too....I did find an email from him over the weekend. He had free time and wanted to stop by. Fortunately, I was gone most of the weekend, so we weren't able to connect. And I'm happy about that....I know looking at those eyes again and hearing that voice would make me melt! I'm trying to be so strong with this, I realize that seeing him again will push me right back into square 1.<p>He did mention that things are not working out as he thought they would with OW2, so he isn't about to end anything with "us" yet. Wouldn't he have a surprise if I ended it??? <p>I wish you luck with your situation too. Yes, this is an emotional roller coaster. It seems like you have the courage and strength to pull out of your situation. Please remember that my thoughts and encouragement are with you too and let me know how you're doing. <p>MaryRN, it was great to hear from you! I appreciate your reply and encouragement! It helps me so much to hear from someone who's walked down the same path. You've had so much courage to take the steps to change your life around! I will try to be just as brave as you and Juanita!<p>Like you, I entered this site looking for help to end my A. I wasn't sure what to expect, knowing that so many people here have been hurt by the OW. The compassion, caring and support I've gotten here have been tremendous and each day I am getting stronger....or at least trying to.<p>I am proud of you for your courage to meet his wife. The wife of my MM (and you're right...these guys never really were "ours") and I already know each other. Needless to say, she isn't very fond of me, so I would never expect a rational discussion about him. She has every reason to hate me, because of what I've done to their marriage. I feel so bad for the pain I've caused her. I should consider the apology letter, it sounds like a great idea and a step in the right direction. <p>You are doing great by not having contact for 4 months! I can imagine how hard that business call must have been. But, you're right, those tears on the way home were becuase of knowing you did the right thing. I've got such a long way to go with this, since I'm still at the beginning stage of breaking this off (and haven't actually done it yet). I hope I can be strong enough....
I know it is what I HAVE to do......<p>I understand reaching that lowest point, too...I've been there. In fact, the first night I posted I didn't know where else to turn. I was scared....I missed him so much and my mind was wandering about whether he was with OW2. Just being able to sit, cry and let my feelings out helped so much...and I never expected all the support!<p>I truly admire the way you are channeling the hurt from your situation into a new start. I need a new "me" too...in my case, lose 10 lbs., new hairdo, etc. The timing should be right for me to do that too. I need to jump on the treadmill and stairstepper and think positively about what I CAN do. (And yes, that waiting for his visit is a nightmare!) This experience can become something positive for us because we know that we deserve much more than what we were getting from these guys.<p>Everyone on this site have been terrific and you and Juanita have become a blessing to me! I wish you strength to continue with your no contact and those great workouts!! Keep it up!! You're doing great!!<p>Jomin, thanks for your input. Your thread should help me become angry at this guy, but its still hard for me to do. It was my choice to become involved; not a good choice at all, but one I made freely. <p>I don't really feel as if God is punishing me...I'm just trying to find the point of it all. Maybe it was just a learning experience...and I agree that it is possible to change my life around....and I hope I can stay strong enough to do that!<p>And to Juststartingover, thanks so much for the link. I am going to look at it now. I'm still hanging in there....day by day....minute by minute!

OUCH! OK all ready! This woman has fealings and admitted messing up. I am ashamed of some of the things that have been posted here. Please understand that these ugly remarks are from people in pain.
My advise is that you order 2 coppies of "Love Busters and 1 "HNHN", when they come in drop in unexpectedly on the W, give here 1 each and tell her what is going down. Then do the leave town thing. Read LB and start over. I would recomend attending a large church that has a singles class. Then knowing how to do it right (after he reads and understands the program ) get married and live happily ever after.
May God be with you.

DJ,<p>You can end it, and you will survive it!! I am a BS and I was also once the WS in an A with a MM. And yes my A produced OC. If my H and I can survive what we have been through, his A and my A and the OC situation, then anyone can survive anything! Not easy getting there, but anything thats worth anything, is worth that fight. Our marriage was, and YOU are worth that to YOURSELF!! You deserve soooo much more. His wife deserves soooo much more. His kids deserve sooooo much more.<p>To comment on something from a few posts back....<p>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Takola, from what I've gathered (and not only from him), his wife has NEVER given him a card, even when they were first married. (In fact, she doesn't even acknowledge her kids birthdays that much!) I really believe he does meet his wife's needs...he is there whenever she wants him there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>That last line of it is what I wanted to comment on. The "I really believe he does meet his wife's needs... he is there whenever she wants him there." part of it. My H had his A before I did. Yes, he was home, sometimes, yes, he provided for us, yes, he was home when I needed him to be most of the time. But at that point in our marriage, I had never felt so alone. I couldnt understand how I could be married but be ALONE. My EN were not being met. Even the time together when it was there, was not in ways I wanted it to be. I just felt so very alone. Which this did not change for years, it just got worse, which is how I ended up in an A of my own. So just because he is home when she wants him to be home, does not mean that he is meeting her needs in any way shape or form. In the case of the MM you have been envolved with, I really dont see him meeting anyones needs, his wifes, yours and the other OW, the only needs he is meeting are his own. His priorities seem to be pretty plain to see. It's all about me, me, me, and what he wants and needs when he needs it... there is no regard on his part for his wife, his kids, you, the other OW.. no one but himself. You said he is a good father to his kids, but if he was TRULY a good father to his kids, he would be facing and admitting to the things he has done to his wife, coming clean about it all and laying out on the table, and hoping there was a chance to save it and have a "real" marriage, not one built up on all the lies he has told. He would end the pain he is causing to everyone envolved. <p>With me being a BS and a WS, I see both sides and have felt and lived both sides. I know what I went through as the BS, the array of emotions and pain that it caused me. I know what I went through as the WS, the pain it caused me, and the pain it caused my family and the MM family. I am the one that ended it with the MM I was envolved with. He eventually told his wife about it long after it was already over. I ended it not just for me, but for what could happen and how it would hurt my H and my kids, his W and his kids. I had been in her place and I couldnt live with myself knowing the pain it would cause her. <p>Ending it with him will not be easy, and it's going to hurt like nothing you've ever felt before. But you have to remember this, think about this in your head constantly, and it will help you to be strong in what you have to do. His wife, his kids, and YOU, all deserve soooooooooo much more then what this man gives. He played you good.... like a fine tuned instrament. And the pain of ending this after 2 years hurts, your pain is just as real as what anyone else goes through. But keep in mind too, that the pain you are causing his wife, who has invested 19 years in to her marriage to him, is beyond devastating too. Put yourself in her shoes. If their marriage can ever be saved, he will have to come clean and be upfront about everything with her. I hope they can, but from what you've said also, I really dont know if he will ever be able to be honest with his wife, because he cant even be honest with himself. But that is THEIRS to deal with, be it he comes clean or flat out gets caught. I know you said you couldnt tell her yourself, I'm not going to say you should and I'm not going to say you shouldnt. But again... put yourself in her shoes... wouldnt YOU want to know?? <p>You seem like such a wonderful person, with many qualites that any man would want. Why sell yourself short by being in a relationship with someone who can never fully give himself to you. He doesnt seem to be someone who can fully give himself to anyone. One of the most basic human needs is to love and be loved, truly. We all have within us the capacity to love more then we ever knew we could. We have the ability to give that.. and it's one of the greatest gifts we as humans have. I see within you the ability to give this... and you DESERVE to recieve this too... dont settle for less the you deserve EVER. You are worth sooooooo much more then that!!! <p>When your feeling weak in doing what your doing by ending this, come here... talk to us, cry with us, and become strong WITH us. There is light at the end of the tunnel, even if you cant see it right now. And you will be so much happier in the end once you reach there. It wont be easy, and it will hurt like h*ll!! But your NOT alone in this, were all here for you. Be strong and hang in there!!! <p>(((((((DJ))))))))<p>My thoughts are with you... you will make it through!!!<p>Ann

Here's an idea. I have no idea if it would work or if you could carry through with it:<p>To be blunt, become a pain in the @ss. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>That's right. Become a nag, a complainer, and show an ugly side. If you don't have an ugly side, make one up. <p>This may just break the illusion for him, or 'lift the fog' so to speak. It may well just push HIM to terminate the relationship.<p>However, I think you would feel much better about yourself in the coming years if you take control and terminate it yourself. Consider this:<p>1. A man who cheats on his wife with multiple women is no man that you want to marry.
2. While your heart and mind is focused on this man, you are going to be unable to meet anyone that you WILL want to marry.
3. The clock is ticking. Every moment you waste pouring over him is another moment in your life that you could have shared with someone truly special. Its another moment that you could have conceived a child with a loving husband. Its another moment that you could have cradled your tiny baby in your arms. Its another moment you could have gotten all of your children up to bed in order to spend a few quiet moments in the arms of your future husband.<p>You see? Don't waste your time on a cheater. You have no vows to break. Just leave.

Hi dj,<p>I know it's tough, I do. But you CAN do it.<p>I understand what you say about your MM holding a special place in your heart, I do. Frankly, I think he sounds like slime - but I respect and accept your sincere feelings.<p>So how do you find your anger, when you don't feel you can really be angry with him? Well, first of all you can be angry at things he has done to you, how he has treated you, even simply the situation - as in finding anger you had to meet on his terms at his convenience, even if you at the time understood and accepted that. Other posters are right, his not only going after the new OW, but his frank telling you of that, is very dismissive and disregarding of your feelings. Did he tell you with empathy? At least acknowledging he knew it would hurt you and regret to hurt you? Can you see how dismissive he's been of you and your feelings, and find anger at that? How about finding anger that he seems to attach women to him to fill his needs, without any seeming respect, understanding of their right to expect things in return, loyalty, care and concern for them? Maybe, like me, finding you are simply at the end of your patience and tolerance and energy, regardless of your feelings? Understanding that it is ok that you do love him, but that is not the same thing as he deserving that love, valuing that love, returning that love, or the same as a relationship with him being healthy and something you should remain in. Finding anger that he is wanting to keep you on his string, while he finds out how this new OW will work out and if he might want to go back to you, or to keep you both involved with him? If you can't be angry at him, perhaps you can be angry at some of his actions? Treatment of you? Or, simply the draining and emotional turmoil and work it takes to remain involved with this man? How it takes and takes from you, for him, but gives so little back in return?<p>
Some of these men are experts at keeping the women they are involved with appeased with words, with occassional time and attention, to keep things good enough often enough they stay on the string, regardless of the trouble and turmoil. They spend at lot of time and energy putting out fires with whatever woman is considering possible break up because the truth is they want them both (or all). Many don't have any trouble telling the women whatever they think they want or need to hear in order to appease them. I suspect this is part of what you see when you say when you are with him things are so good. He's not so stupid as to think you would stick around if he was a complete jerk when you were together.<p>Don't be fooled, I'm struggling too, and my situation isn't quite as traumatic as yours, which doesn't make it easier, but I am tired enough to be ready for it to end, even though there are deep feelings involved on both sides. I'm doing good so far though, although our break up is new, I try to stay detirmined, and luckily my MM is sympathetic and respectful of my feelings and struggles. But it's a day to day thing, and I'm still struggling too.<p>Take care dj, I care. If you'd like you can email me to talk more privately at FoxJuanita@aol.com. Warn me though in a post here if you email me, I don't normally use that address.<p>Juanita

Hi DJ,<p>Just wanted to say hi and see how you're doing.<p>Do you have a partner from off the boards? More instant messages can be helpful during this rough time.<p>Also, they can help hold you accountable than a general forum like this. I kept thinking...Okay, you write your stuff, send it to me (or someone else), give me his email, and I'd hit "send." I don't think I'm the best person for you to have exchanges with. I mean, I've not been in your situation and don't know what to expect. I could imagine what it would be like, but that's not the same thing as being able to anticipate for you.<p>Just some thoughts and I want you to know that I'm pulling for you, too.<p>Hoping

Hi everyone! I still haven't talked to this guy yet to end things....<p>dsimmons, I expected those ugly (even uglier) comments (and I deserved them). Thanks for the good suggestion of giving his wife a copy of Love Busters and HNHN. I already have HNHN....it is fantastic!! As for them, I think counseling could help, if they'd do it. (I don't think they realize that they have a serious problem....they just go along, day by day the way it is. He's not happy with it, but says he must keep the family together for the kids sake.)<p>Ann, it sounds like you've really been through alot and managed to come out ahead!! That is great!! I agree that anything worth having is worth fighting for (and especially a marriage!). I'm happy that you and your H were able to work things out. I wish you continued success and a great future!<p>Reading your thread opened by eyes to something....I've always viewed this guy as being very UNSELFISH, because of how much to does for others and how little of it is for himself. But now I see that everyone gets just a little "piece" of him -- his wife, kids, me and whoever else. He always says he has to "make everyone happy". He knows his priority is with his family and I think he really tries to be everything for them. In spite of his actions, I really do believe he is a great Dad....he is always available to the kids and spends lots of time with them...they are his life....but, ok, he's not perfect; no one is.<p>He does have a big problem with honesty, though. But, for some reason (can I blame love?), I always trusted in him and never doubted what he told me. Why?? Why did he stress the importance of honesty between us if he wasn't honest?? I'm not a dumb, gullible person who believes anything. I'm a smart, intelligent woman with good common sense who thinks things through...and usually makes good decisions....but, it is just something about him....<p>As for our relationship, it was a rare time when HE had a chance to be pampered. He often told me that no one had ever been concerned with making HIM happy...only what HE could do for THEM. And I do believe that. I think he always was surprised that I focused on HIM totally and tried my best to make him smile. He wasn't used to that; but I felt he deserved it.<p>And, with him, I found that capacity to love more than I ever knew I could. I wish I didn't, but I do. I now see that the love wasn't wrong, the person was.<p>I will look for that light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for your support and that cyberhug....I needed it!<p>Wilham2, how I wish I could turn into a nag and help lift that fog, but that's just not me. (I could try, though!) Your list of reasons for ending this are so true. I've got to keep thinking of them. Thanks for your encouragement in helping me to do the right thing.<p>Hi hoping4future...I'm doing ok, at this point anyway. Thanks for pulling for me. I'd love to do email (and Juanita shared her address) but he has my password. Surprised?? He's had it since the beginning. He said he'd never check my emails (and naturally I believe him), but who knows?? Just in case he does, I don't want him finding emails about him...I think a new password is in order here!<p>Juanita, thanks for the offer of emails....I'd love to (after I change passwords or get another address).<p>Slime?? Ok, he does sound like that (or even worse!). But why is he so special to me?? Why do I still feel this way about him after I see him as he really is?? And even after I try my best to get angry??<p>All of the points you mentioned should indeed make me angry...but I really do believe he cares about me. No, he doesn't love me, but he cares. And he did tell me he didn't want to hurt me when he mentioned the OW. He wanted to tell me because we are honest with each other. He assured me that I did nothing wrong, it was just something HE had to pursue. (And, the last I heard, things weren't going well with her....so he didn't make any progress, yet anyway. But, I do hope she has the power to resist him....for her sake!!)<p>And no, he doesn't deserve the love I have for him and I doubt he values it. But, then again, he never expected it and didn't ask for it. We said long ago that it is important that we care deeply for each other....it didn't have to be love.<p>Let me explain what I meant when I said that things are so good when we're together. We are comfortable and relaxed with each other. We brighten things up and make each other smile (for no reason even). It almost feels like we "belong" together, like we are at peace. We are both good listeners. He doesn't really tell me things I want to hear. He doesn't "butter me up" with undue compliments and sweet talk, so its not time spent where I hear lots of "flowery" things. It is just so hard to explain. He calms me and relaxes me. I've never felt that way with anyone and it confuses me.<p>Yes, a relationship like this is emotionally draining and tiring. I know it can't go on. I keep thinking that the next time we talk I will tell him that it is over. I have to be strong and brave to do it. I have to think of the anger I should have for the pain he's caused everyone involved, and be determined to do this.<p>I give you credit for staying determined and strong; I hope I can do the same. I care about your situation too and wish you luck. We are going through a difficult time. You've helped me tremendously. Maybe can do emails soon. Take care and please keep in touch!!

I have been reading a bit in The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck. Let me pass on some passages to you, from the chapter entitled "The Myth of Romantic Love".<p>"....the experience of falling in love probably must have as one of its characteristics the illusion that the experience will last forever. This illusion is fostered in our culture bye the commonly held myth of romantic love, which has its origins in our favorite childhood fairy tales, wherein the prince and princess, once united, live happily forever after. The myth of romantic love tells us, in effect, that for every young man in the world there is a young woman who was 'meant for him,' and vice versa....<p>While i genereally find that great myths are gret precisely because they represent and embody gret universal truths, the myth of romantic love is a dreadful lie. Perhaps it is a necessary lie in that it ensures survival of the species by encouragement and seeming validation of the falling-in-love experience that traps us into marriage. But as a psychiatriest I weep in my heart almost dailyt for the ghastly confusion and suffering this myth fosters. Millions of people waste vast amounts of energy desperately and futilely attempting to make the realit of their lives conform to the unreality of the myth."<p>Now, the first sentence of this book is one with which even my 11-y-o daughter agrees. Read it carefully and then get on with the business of getting your life together, finding a counselor, and regaining some sanity.<p>"Life is difficult."
- M. Scott Peck

Oh DJ, your post made me want to cry!! It seems to me you think of yourself in some way as this man's surrogate wife, and you're bent on following MB principles for his sake..<p>Sweetie, do you have HIS email passwords? To ALL of his email accounts? Do you really believe he doesn't check your mail every day???<p>Please, I know I sound harsh, but I can't bear to see you putting yourself through this. You're not his wife, DJ, and for you to be his surrogate is a blasphemy however much you love him. <p>You're not taking control of your own life, DJ. You've given yourself body and soul into his keeping, and I have a really ugly feeling in the pit of my stomach that he's not worthy of that trust. Well, he's proved that already, hasn't he? His wife also once gave him her trust. <p>Another thing that has been haunting me is that he said he wouldn't have been interested in you had you "played around" before him. Kind of arrogant given that he'd already had at least TWO OTHER AFFAIRS?<p>You asked why he should be adamant about honesty in your relationship if he didn't mean it? Simple. Makes him look good, keeps you under his control. He knows that honesty is important to you, so he uses that as a button. You know for a fact that he lies continuously to his wife, and I bet he lies to OW#4 as well. So why on earth would he not lie to you? My XH was very good at demanding the truth from me, even put a PI onto me several times, paid our son to report to him, confided in our local telephone operator.... and was he only good at saying things like "I've never kissed another woman since I've married you, I've never told another woman I love her. Men are always after YOU!!! You're a slut and I have to protect you from your weakness." Well, yeah, men did hit on me, and got slapped down every single time. My XH of course never mentioned the blowjobs, the "escorts", the strip shows...... maybe he never kissed another woman, but that doesn't mean he told me the truth....<p>As to MM saying "I have to keep everybody happy" and you going all starry-eyed and exclaiming "My unselfish, noble hero!" Nope, Mr Wonderful does NOT need to keep EVERYBODY happy. His first priority should be his wife, his next and last should be his kids. They're the only people to whom he owes his presence, his commitment and his love.<p>MJ, I'm so afraid you're hanging around on the sidelines hoping #4 will refuse him and he'll come back to you and you can revert to this blissful state where you fill up the cracks left by his wife. When he goes off after #5, or #15, do you still want to be waiting for him to come back to your unconditionally loving arms?<p>Change your password, in fact change your email addy. It took me less than 5 minutes to change ours. Write him a firm, polite no contact letter, and start the closure process. Closure starts with an irrevocable goodbye, just as mourning starts with a death. There will be no healing for you until you do say goodbye.<p>Hang in, you can do it. It hurts like hell, but the rewards are beyond imagination now. You don't have to hate him, just accept that just as diabetics can't eat double fudge icecream, you can't have a relationship with a serial cheater. <p>Cyberhug!

DJ,
It's taken me two days to read this whole thread. Wow, because you have been receptive, you have gleened the wisdom of the "best of the best" of this board. This thread has information for all of us. I thank you for your "grace" so that others can learn and grow as well.<p>I'm the Mom to an OW. She is single as you are with many of the mind sets that you have. I actually thought that this might be her as I read your words, even your phraising, about him and how you feel about him, is the same. Her affair is now at 2 1/2 years, her MM has 4 small boys, says he will never leave his wife and children, says he loves his wife, says he is totally honest, plays the NICE GUY, is a medical professional and a Mormon Bishop! (breath)<p>Earily on, I lost my position of being effective with her by being judgemental, making disrespectful comments and angry outbursts. I have not been able to say ANYTHING to her. I have learned here on MB that I have even made things worse by creating a "It's me and you against the world" situation. I'm telling you this because I want you to know that MB principals are here for lots of us to learn from, even MOM! This thread is helping many who lurk, many who will never post. <p>So if you NEED a reason for your lesson, count this thread as one of them. Though it won't help my daughter, this will help someone elses daughter. <p>The more you learn and read and post here at MB the stronger you will become. My prayer for you is that, when the test comes (and it will come) you will have become strong enough to resist. I've learned that the "cakemen" always come back. He has time invested in "groming" you. He will pull out tecniques he has never used before, after all, OW#4 isn't working out the way he thought it might.<p>God has given you ANGLES here. They have their arms around you, the ARM is the KNOWLEDGE that will give you the POWER that will help you to get your self-respect back.<p>This "relationship" has been about him, it's time to make this about YOU.