No, there is not a template but I agree we need to get one. Let me think on this and maybe I will even shoot Dr Harley an email and get his input. In the meantime, I would suggest you start working on a rough draft.

And i want to applaud you finally deciding to take some action. I know it has been very hard for you.

Melody is right--feedback is vital and we all need to be open to it. If he can't "handle" it now - as a grown adult - when WILL he ? It's a sign of maturity to be able to listen
to feedback. If he doesn't know what bothers you, he is going to keep doing it.

I have a question in regards to including the independent behavior as a love buster for me in the Plan B letter. How would he work on his independent behavior if I am not around for the LB to take place? Independent Behavior is one the main reasons we are in this mess. If I am not there to witness the Independent Behavior or not, how can I tell if he has worked on any of these things? I'm not giving excuses, I am just trying to gage what to include in the Plan B letter.

He would have to demonstrate to you during the separation that it has stopped. And when and if you ever get back together, there would have to be so much transparency that he couldn't hide it anymore.

As far as affairs go, maybe he is an introvert and not a ladies man.

Been separated just shy of a month. I am currently living with my parents which is not ideal but it's what I can afford at the moment. H is at our home with my cat and the majority of my things as I can only bring a few items to my parents crowded home. Everytime my husband and I talk we get in a an argument. I have re-read HNHN and LB books and had many epiphanies particularly about my EN and LB that I had been engaging in (Dishonesty, Angry Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgements and some Selfish Demands). Uncannily, I believe my husband to have engaged in the same LB but just add on Independent Behavior for him. I want very much to make this work but my H is still trying to figure out if this marriage is worth saving. I want to respect his 'thinking time' but I am not in an ideal living situation and just want nothing more than to go home and work on our marriage, together. How can I 'convince' my husband that this marriage is worth working on without seeming desperate or giving in to the behavior that I left him for?

The reason I am out of the house and not him, is that I left knowing that I could not afford the home on my own if he decided not to pay while he was away. I feel like we are both in extreme withdraw and I am at my wits end. I told him that if he was open to it that we needed professional help and suggested Dr Harley. He said that he didn't want to spend that kind of money if he didn't know if he wanted to continue our relationship. He is reading HNHN now and I also left LB for him to read as well. All I can hope is that he gets something from the books. I asked for feedback on what he read so far in HNHN and he said that nothing really stood out to him too much. (he has read up through intimate conversation) I don't know what to do at this point. I feel completely hopeless and lost. Any advice you can give is appreciated.

Bubbles, he needs to step up and do some serious work if you are going to take him back. I don't see anything here that indicates he is fighting for your marriage. In that case, I would back off and see if he does the work on his own. Unless he is coming to you on bended knee with a willingness to change, you should not consider taking him back. So far, he has failed the test. Please start making plans to get a legal separation and plan on being separated and eventually divorced. You have been dealing with this for many, many years and I don't predict it will ever change.

As it is now, your marriage is NOT worth working on. There is nothing here to save.

The things is that, I think that we BOTH need serious work. Not JUST him. We both engaged in LB. I want to do some major changing and FAST but it sounds like my husband is going at a snails pace if at all. Probably because he is in the more comfortable setting of our home. He has all the things around him that make him feel at home. In our last conversation, he went on and on about how, while it was weird not having me there and he misses me, he feels like a new found freedom and weight lifted off of his shoulders. He told me about all the good things that happened in his life the last week including a shopping trip where he didn't feel pressured by me to purchase or try on clothes that I thought that he would like and look good in. It made me feel as if he would rather not have me around and that he was rubbing his happiness in my face all the while I am miserable. I don't want to be, but I am. He says that he is taking this time to really figure out what he wants and I am largely doing the same. I want this marriage to work but he is not there yet. And I fear that with this new found happiness without me, I am beating a dead horse. I never wanted divorce to be part of my life. I don't think anybody really does, so yes, I am trying to fight for my marriage, or at least the marriage we could have if we would just put in the effort.

He is not going at any "pace," he has checked out. You have been trying to get him to work on the marriage for many, many years and you know he won't. Stop trying. The time has arrived for acceptance. He does not care about your marriage. Your marriage is over.

Hello MB forum members, I am the OP’s husband. Having recently finished the His Needs, Her Needs book, I found myself feeling really down a few nights ago and decided to check out the MB site having taken quizzes and such with my wife in the past. I was surprised to find a forum here so I thought maybe there’s something here to help me through what is a particularly difficult situation with my wife. So, imagine my surprise when I not only find an active thread that has been opened by my wife, but a few dating back several years. After fully reading the comments, I can’t tell you how painful it is to see my name (even though it is unwritten) completely soiled knowing that I came here to possibly seek help and I already feel super unwelcome here. But that aside, I did come here with a purpose and I intend to see it through. As I’m sure you all know, every story has 2 sides and all that I respectfully ask is to be able to give my side of a few things that have been talked about and then I’ll leave. I also want it to be known that I’m not here to be vindictive, reveal secrets about my wife that haven’t already been stated, attack anyone, or refute anything she has said; I’m simply here to offer my side so that a better picture of the truth is painted.

First of all, I want to thank the forum members who actually gave insightful advice to my wife (who I will refer to as OP from here on out – not out of disrespect, but because it is more forum-friendly) and didn’t just go straight to the extremes. Finding people to talk to who truly have your best interest at heart during something like this can be difficult, so I again, thank you for taking the time to reply to her pleas for help. Now, to obviously address the elephant in the room - and I want to be perfectly clear about this, I am not currently, nor have I ever, engaged in an affair. I know that there will be some that still don’t believe me, but if you’re willing to stick around for the entire post, maybe you’ll think differently (and if not, that’s okay too; I’m really only interested in one person’s viewpoint after all). But yes, there has been porn viewing in the marriage; the OP knows this as I laid it all out in counseling. She knows that I feel very guilty about it, but I hope everyone on this board knows and agrees that an affair is completely different monster. I’ll even tell you the exact reason why I would never even consider an affair – I wouldn’t be able to live with myself or look myself in the mirror each day. Believe me, I have a very active conscience, and even when it came to porn, I had to do everything to ignore it, but I will say it became much easier to do when I was hurt. That is a key point that I will come back to later.

I want to start by talking about the actual original post though (the cleaning of my desk) and what that was all about. OP is accurate about most of what was stated; however, the reason for the anger is not accounted for. When I do my business trips (which are not permanent parts of my job I might add; just a few days per month when we have a new client), they often take a lot of out of me as I am in constant meetings and seminars all day long and my working hours tend to be much longer than usual. And so, having spent the entire day cooped up in a car for the better part of almost 8 hours, I wanted to just come home and relax. I arrived home before the OP and wanted to work on my computer for a bit. When I went downstairs and saw my computer desk completely barren, I was frankly stunned and not in a good way. I noticed a big box near my computer with a bunch of my stuff in it in what seemed to be complete disarray except for various baggies containing the aforementioned screws and other small items. All I could think about was, what did I do to deserve this? You see, when I saw this, I didn’t think “wow, this looks great!”; no, instead I felt like OP had boxed me up and was shipping me out. I stared at my desk in complete and utter disbelief and then went back upstairs without even touching my computer.

While waiting for her to get home, I tried to calm myself down and constantly asked myself why she would do this? I really wanted to see some sort of positive intent behind this, but it felt so much like snooping and I didn’t want to allow myself to think that (and no, there wouldn’t have been anything to find). A short time later, she came home. I tried so hard not to blow up at her and just accept things as they were so I made my best attempt to talk to her after giving her a hoodie as a souvenir from my trip. That’s where the part about the pictures and such came from in her post. However, after that, I had to retreat because I knew that I wasn’t going to be able to keep this in and still be my normal self. To clarify, in counseling, my biggest takeaway from that was that I am (and always have been) too passive in my thinking. It allows people to steamroll over me and that makes it easy to take advantage of me. Likewise, it has also turned me into someone who withdraws whenever conflict arises and the danger there is that it can make me very resentful. So, I went back to her and tried to talk through it carefully. I said that “I really wish you had talked to me before you cleaned”. She said that she was trying to surprise me and do something nice for me (instead of mowing as she pointed out). Unfortunately, I didn’t see it that way and proceeded to explain that it felt like she had packed me up, threw all my stuff in a box, and completely re-arranged my stuff to her liking. I didn’t see how that could possibly be seen as a good thing and said that I would never do that to her. I said that I felt that this would be the same thing as if I took some of her items on display in her craft room and threw them in a box and left them in the hallway. I can’t imagine that anyone would like that at all. Furthermore, I now had to re-calibrate several electronic devices and didn’t know where anything was as a result of this, but it was clear that my concerns and issues were just not reaching her. She became upset at this point over my ungratefulness and an argument ensued. To be honest, it is hard for me to look back at that situation and feel grateful given that all I really wanted some kind of understanding and consideration for my things and space. In hindsight, I really do wish I had been able to keep my temper under control in that argument but it was impossible at the time given how I was truly feeling.

Now, I’m not sure why the post suddenly veered towards porn at this point, but I suspect that’s what everyone wants me to talk about anyway, so here it is. As I said previously, yes, porn usage became a thing when things started to go downhill for us about 5 years into marriage. In counseling, I had written a letter that I read aloud in front of her and the counselor and I confessed a lot including my history with it and where it all began. I am going to copy and paste excerpts from that very letter:
“I found myself going through puberty when I was exposed to porn for the first time through friends. Up until that point, I had been so guarded from knowing anything about the female body that I, perhaps naturally, found it fascinating. We did not have cable TV growing up, so I found myself spending a lot of time at friends’ houses where they did and most of their parents were far more lenient on what they could watch versus mine. To be honest, what I saw wasn’t even really arousing at that point, it was more or less just something that was really interesting to me and I found myself now getting answers to a lot of the questions that I had been too afraid or embarrassed to ask about (in junior high), and best of all, it didn’t require me to ask anyone.
In high school, I became quite interested in girls and I was seeing all of my friends having dates and going to dances. Left only with my video games to keep me company, I know that deep down I am lonely, jealous, and desperate for female attention. But every time that I would muster up the courage to ask a girl out or even express that I like them, I’m rejected and left feeling worse for even entertaining the idea of talking to them. I had one girlfriend in my entire high school life, but I had probably asked over 10 girls out. The girlfriend I did have cheated on me after I chickened out of my first real kiss. Even though the relationship lasted maybe a month, I was devastated by it. I felt like a coward over the kiss and I was angry and frustrated that she wouldn’t be more patient with me. And so, I was consumed with bitterness for years. I stopped trying to go after girls and focused on what actually made me happy at the time: video games.”

“Enter OP, who interrupted my life quite suddenly and unexpectedly. She showed up one day at my job and entered a video game tournament that I was judging, which ended up serving as my way of getting to know her. She was in a committed relationship when we first met, but that ended up falling through after a few months of me knowing her. After a few friendly dates, I confided in her that I had feelings for her and also told her that I was a virgin all around in that I wasn’t at all experienced with even something as simple as kissing. She made it sound like it was no big deal, but I think most people still believe that the first kiss is a big deal. In any case, we kissed and things began to progress quickly in our relationship from there. Things were very comfortable between us then and I actually even remember the OP watching a few adult-oriented things with me at the time and she didn’t really seem to mind it, but I also lost interest in it because I was now able to experience something real.”

These good times continued until marriage, but I think we (or at least I) felt that the honeymoon stage was over about 5 years into things. There were certain key events that lead up to me viewing porn again, but I will keep that private knowing that OP has heard all this before. I will just say that a few failed attempts to try and spice up things the bedroom left me feeling extremely vulnerable, ashamed, and ended up making me feel like the world’s biggest pervert. I felt extremely rejected as a person, a husband, and as a lover. OP has already pointed out how hard intimacy is for me (perhaps in other threads) and this did nothing to help me in the areas that she identified as me lacking in such as flirtation, intimate conversation, etc. To know and feel that I couldn’t even talk to my spouse without such intense judgment hurt me more than the worst physical pain I’ve ever been in.

In the times that porn has come up as a topic of discussion, I was never really asked why I did it, so I offered up that information again in the letter that I read in counseling:
“Porn has been an off and on thing at various points in the marriage, but it was never constant. Most of the time it was a reactionary thing to tough times that we were going through. It mainly served as a place of comfort in situations where I felt that there wasn’t much coming from the marriage. It was something familiar, without judgment, and it also strangely relaxed me. That feeling of comfort was short-lived though because it also brought shame and guilt along with it in most cases. As a Christian man, I hated the fact that I was even remotely enticed by the idea of porn in the marriage, but because I recognized it as a temptation, I was also able to very easily put it aside. Truth be told, I actually did find a lot of things in porn to be demoralizing and degrading, so it wasn’t like just anything would do it for me. When I would give things up and go back to my “normal” self, things would be fine until we had a big argument or I felt like our intimacy became unbalanced again. To that extent, it would be fair to say that most of the time, my desire to seek out things like porn was reactionary to what was going on with us almost like a cause and effect thing. Put another way, I felt that if my emotions could be seen as a suit of armor, each argument that we had put dents and chips in it. And since many of our arguments were left unresolved in favor of just moving on due to coming to a stalemate, that armor was often never repaired. And when that armor broke down enough, and I would get to the point of simply not caring anymore, then temptation was able to set in a lot easier and more frequently.”

My last comment that I want to make has to do with ED and those pills. As the OP pointed out in another thread about wanting sex more frequently, a lot of times I just wasn’t interested, but that was actually not directly related to porn. When our relationship became very robotic (in that we were basically just going through the motions) I felt that I could see in myself that I had become moody and depressed and I could tell that something just wasn’t right. Likewise, I began to see changes both in the bedroom and even a few times on my own when I could not get or maintain an erection even though my mind was in the right place. I am 37 years old now and the thought of being this young and having ED absolutely terrified me. I went to a family medicine doctor and talked it over and he prescribed some pills for me. I did talk to OP about the pills and she was okay with them but didn’t really want to know when I would take them because she wanted to feel responsible for any erections and not something medical. I tried both Viagra and Cialis and found them both to be effective for me; however, these were trial packs and were significantly cheaper than the regular price. I quickly realized that if this was something that I would potentially need to take for the rest of my life, I was going to need to find a way to do this much cheaper. So, I found a reputable place online that was selling generic versions of the drug. I kept them in my bag because at one point, OP said she felt like Viagra somehow resulted in a mood swing she didn’t like even though there is no specific additive that alters mood or anything of that nature. I didn’t want to put them in the same area with the rest of the medicine because that is in the same public area as some of our plates that guests might use and I would prefer that they not be that familiar with my “problem”. But yes, I wanted to be ready for the bedroom, and if the situation got lonely enough on business trips (as it definitely can), ready for solo – so in the bag they went.

But, as OP can attest to having seen, not very many tablets were used at all. There were some pretty awful side effects (such as those resembling a cold-like runny or stuffy nose and occasional headaches) with these, but I actually found the same was true of the official name brand stuff despite them actually working. I didn’t want to be making love while appearing to be sick, so I stopped taking them and decided to try one last thing. I constantly saw commercials for a men’s clinic in the area and talked to OP about going. She supported me in that decision; however, declined to go with me. While I spoke with the clinic doctor and was getting the rundown of things, part of the process is that you get an injection into the genitals to test their formula for treating ED to see how well it works on you. I seemed to respond to the medication well; however, it was at that point that the doctor also noticed something that I’ve dealt with my entire life, but never had a name for until now: Peyronie’s Disease. For those unfamiliar with it, it is basically a mild to severe curvature of the male genitals. It’s easier for me to talk about now that I have a name for it, but it is definitely something that I don’t like to admit to having, but it has also occasionally been the source of physical pain during intercourse for both of us. I guess this is one of the things that I felt like the OP could have gained knowledge about if we had gone and done this together.

There was also an ultrasound done that measured how much blood flow there was and I had quite a few blockages. Additionally, I was also diagnosed with having pretty low testosterone (especially for my age) and that was likely the cause of both my low libido and issues maintaining or getting an erection. So, in the course of about 10 minutes, I felt like my entire world had completely changed with the receipt of all this news. As a man, this was really devastating to hear, but there was some hope with the treatments that were offered. They recommended a plan for me and I set off towards home to talk to OP.

She was supportive of the treatment plan that I laid out; however, she still did not want to participate even though she had a lot of questions. As I mentioned before, this disappointed me a little bit because I did genuinely want her to be interested in what was going on with me. I wanted her to understand my struggles and see the effort that I was making to try and satisfy both of our needs and take a little awkwardness out of our bedroom and relationship. But, unfortunately, there really wasn’t much of a change in this area.
In any case, I started my treatment a little over a year ago and showed a lot of improvement in all areas, but most notably, in my mood swings and cognitive thinking. I felt like I was overall happier and thinking was “easier” (things weren’t so “foggy” if that makes any sense). But despite the positive effects, things were not all good in the bedroom because with my libido now mostly restored, intimacy was still very hard because I still wasn’t feeling particularly close to OP, a notion that I know she has shared here. I felt like I had just gone through a ton of work to try and fix my physical sexual problems, but we were rarely on the same page sexually and our relationship continued to suffer as a result of it. And so, after going through what feels like unsuccessful counseling, I don’t think it would be inaccurate to say that both of us feel very lost and confused about our situation. And the OP is absolutely correct in that I don’t want to hurt her anymore, but I also don’t want to be hurt myself.

Now, I will be the first person to admit that I can be a confusing person to try and “get”. I do things very analytically and if something doesn’t make sense to me; it doesn’t matter how many people get behind the idea; I can still feel totally comfortable going the other direction. I’m also very good at overanalyzing things, which has caused problems at various points in time as well. I also realize that I am (as OP pointed out) a very sensitive person and I do very much care what others think. In fact, I was extremely hurt by many of the comments that were posted here and thinking about them all that night resulted in very little sleep along with elevated blood pressure.

Ultimately, it’s obvious that my actions have badly hurt the OP; they were not meant to do so and that’s why I lived with things in secret. I completely own that and make no excuses for it. What I will say though is that past experiences have haunted me when I have tried to talk about sensitive or intimate issues. I know that aspect has gone both ways as well. For me personally, I honestly don’t know if I will ever overcome that hurt from so long ago, but I can at least acknowledge and recognize it for what it is.
For my final thought, I want to reveal that I actually have been fully aware of the OP’s “snooping” in the recent weeks. Although I am very disappointed by it, I also wanted her to see that there isn’t anyone coming by or that I’m seeing. Again, an affair crosses a moral line that I refuse to cross. I agree that it might not excuse the porn usage, but I will say that everyone has their life temptations, triggers, and challenges. To close things out, it is not my intention to lurk in these forums because I have likely already outstayed my welcome, but I also want to keep this forum available to my wife without her worrying about whether or not I’m reading it so that she can continue to communicate with you all if she chooses to do so. I thank you for those who managed to read all of this.

Hi dualedge, welcome to Marriage Builders. Thanks for signing up and giving your perspective. One of the biggest problems in your marriage over the years has been your use of porn. Porn use causes a lack of emotional intimacy in marriage and causes the user to view sexual fulfillment in marriage as a purely physical act, versus making love. Porn users typically have weird sexual desires that ruin the sexual experience for their spouse. I can see it has negatively affected your marriage when you said this:


"Spicing things up" coming from a porn user typically means they tried unpleasant sex acts with their spouse and it was rejected. Rather than focusing on making love to their spouse, they focused on a perverted sexual act. Decidedly, a turn off for most women. Women feel USED and not loved and valued. Women need 2 things to feel desire, an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. Both of those are usually missing when there is porn in the background. When there is porn in the marriage, sex becomes little more than 2 animals going at it.

Another result of porn use in your marriage has been chronic emotional neglect. Your wife has felt emotionally neglected since she started posting here in 2011. That feeling has only grown and enhanced over the years and I can see why after reading your post. In your post you give endless excuses about why you revert back to porn. It seems you feel you are entitled to use porn if the marriage is not going your way. "there were key events that lead up me viewing porn again" <-----alcoholics make similar excuses for their drinking. The bottom line is that there is no excuse for using porn. Getting your sexual needs met outside of marriage is damaging to your marriage in many ways as I have outlined.

I am not sure why you feel "disappointed" about her snooping. There is nothing wrong with snooping. As your spouse, she has every right to know what you are doing. You have every right to know what she does since both of your actions affect the other. Secrecy in marriage is not a good thing.


And maybe that is true. However, almost every person who has an affair once said the same thing. They are usually the very people who have affairs; because of their false sense of immunity they typically have poor boundaries. We have had pastors who had affairs. So I understand you believe this about yourself, but as someone who has seen thousands of affairs over 18 years on this forum, I know it doesn't mean anything.

Moving forward, your wife has felt neglected for years and unless that changes you probably won't have a marriage. It doesn't have to be like that. But doing nothing to remedy your wife's complaints will likely have that outcome. I summarized her main complaints in one of my previous posts, did you see it?

H and I have been separated for 2 months now. During these 2 months I have been working on myself and thinking about what things I can change to become a better wife and person. I have very limited communication with my H and have been using email and text as a form of that communication.

His post on this forum was both shocking and relieving at the same time. Relieving in that he has reached out to those who could help but shocked by some of his comments about his porn/pill usage while traveling (I had an inkling about this but he just confirmed it). Since this has been written he has thrown away all of his sex toys/games and has talked to me more about his issues with porn which gave me some hope. He revealed to me that I am a trigger for his usage which was a HUGe red flag for me. Me making him feel rejected, being bored in the bedroom and not wanting to take the time to 'butter me up' were all things that would cause him to use. In essence he is blaming me for his porn usage and I know that that is not right. I am not to blame for his actions. His usage has hurt me and our marriage. For him to admit that and get help would make all the difference in the world to me but I am afraid that is not going to happen.

He also has since written me a letter explaining ways that I have hurt him in the past (I mean WAY past like when we were first dating( decades ago at this point) that he is holding on to. These were not addressed with me at the time and while I could have handled some of the situations differently, there is nothing that I can do about them now. In the letter, he also went chapter by chapter of HNHN and gave me examples of when I didn't met his emotional need in an area or two which was helpful and did try to explain his point of view or need which, again, was SUPER helpful. I then commented back to his letter and gave my point of view when it comes to both mine and his emotional needs and his porn use. In these comments I am trying to start a dialogue about how we can come together to meet each others emotional needs. I am also trying to get him to understand what his porn use has done to me and our marriage while trying to be supportive that he/we need to get professional help.

He is now very upset, I am assuming about my comments written in the letter that he said that he is not ready to discuss the letter, our relationship, etc. I am trying to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is still processing the comments that I made but I am having a hard time. Not being able to have an adult discussion about or feelings, thoughts, opinions and actions without the other person getting upset is an issue that I discuss in my comments in the letter. While we have been separated, I have been taking steps to take my bad emotions out of the equation when feelings, etc are being discussed which has helped with my angry outbursts. The fact still remains that I do not feel like I can even share my feelings with my husband without some sort of repercussion and this doesn't give me hope for our future. I'm not sure what else to try or do. Why is having an adult conversation about feelings, thoughts, opinions and actions with my H so hard?? I hate feeling like this.

I don't think your husband is remotely interested in making the necessary radical changes it will take to achieve a happy marriage where both your needs are met. It sounds to me like he has scoured HNHN to find ways to change your behavior without asking how he can meet your needs. You have always been willing to meet his needs but he has never met your needs. I imagine he told you that weird sex acts were an "emotional need" and has an expectation that you meet that need. That is typically how porn users manipulate the emotional needs. Weird sex acts are not an emotional needs, btw.

Unless he shows an enthusiastic approach to making radical changes in his own behavior, I would not suggest you reconcile with him. You have wasted years on a very unfulfilling marriage with a dedicated porn addict. I wouldn't keep doing that. You can have a great future, just not with him.

Bubbles, he is not "processing" anything. He doesn't care. He has demonstrated his lack of care in many, many ways over the course of your marriage. You shouldn't pretend like his lack of action now is any different.

PLEASE, do yourself a favor and stop wasting your time with this. There is nothing to save here. You cannot force your husband to change his marriage wrecking behavior against his will.

He wasn't reaching out for help. He signed up to tell me off. Please note he was offered "help" and has not been back. He does not care.