This is why Dr Harley suggests discussing PORH and POJA with someone you are dating and considering marrying. And then practicing it. You should be able to spot if someone is "just saying" they are on board but then aren't serious about actually doing it.

Are you saying looking back with your WW, prior to her affairs and gaming, that she would have been on board with PORH and POJA, had you discussed it with her?

She wouldn't have made done anything without your enthusiastic agreement?

She would have been willing to be 100% transparent, sharing all passwords, access to her phone, texts, emails, etc? She would have been willing to share all details and answer questions about her day?

What do you think her parents were referring to when they made that comment about her? Why didn't you question them further? Is it possible that you didn't want to see any red flags?

Thank you very much for the link, I'll definitely be checking it out.

That said, I'm having a hard time with one thing on this website. Everyone uses so many acronyms and abbreviations that I'm sort of lost most of the time. Is there some sort of glossary or index I can view all of these at before really diving in? That would really help.

I understand what you're saying. In all honesty, I had been trying really hard the past couple years to come up with activities that we could enjoy together. I was putting forth FAR more effort in this area than she was. I'd take us to movies, theater shows, I was suggesting we go do stuff all the time. I bought a tandem kayak, planned camping and canoeing trips, etc. I knew deep down that without that connection of "playing together" that we were going to run into more troubles again. Instead of giving her gifts of "things" I would give her gifts that were experiences we could do together (vacations, theater performances, etc) that I knew she would really love. Unfortunately it appears that in the end it just wasn't enough.

I'm legitimately impressed that you and your husband are able to share 4 or 5 dates per week. That's... a lot. I wouldn't even have the financial resources to do that sort of thing lol. I realize not everything needs to be expensive, but still, 4 or 5 times per week takes a LOT of energy and planning. Maybe that's what it takes though.



We did. We lived together for 3 years prior to me proposing and then another year and a half of engagement. I surely thought 4.5 years of living together (and loving every minute of it!) would be enough time to know her ways. Guess I was wrong. What could I have done differently there?

Admittedly, I wasn't at all experienced at relationships at the time. I wouldn't have even thought about it, you know? I had no idea what any of these philosophies even were at the time. I've always been sort of a radically honest guy myself without even trying, but I didn't think to talk to her about it. Live and learn I guess. Things were SO great that I never felt the need to discuss any of that sort of thing with her. She was my first true love and I was a naiive 23 year old when we met. It wasn't ever until the past 5 years that I had any questions about us at all.


I honestly don't know. Prior to her gaming issues in 2014, it's possible she would have been relatively transparent, but I couldn't answer the question of whether that would be 100% or not. The topic just never came up. I never felt a need to look at her phone, texts, emails etc. It wasn't until she first met that guy online that she became extremely secretive about all of that sort of stuff. Again, this is my first time through this sort of thing so I clearly didn't think it was as much of a problem as it turned out to be at the time.


I think it has far less to do with not wanting to see red flags and far more to do with being so in love with her and our life and everything going so well that I didn't even think anything of it at the time. Hopefully you get what I mean? Life was SO good with her for the first 5 years together that I never thought anything would come between us. I didn't question them further because nothing had been an issue and I just figured we were two very compatible people. Clearly now, at this point in my life, I'm far more versed on the true (and sad) ways of the world. I'll definitely be more wary next time.

If you would view marriage the same way you view the courtship process, you would understand how a good marriage works. Would you be surprised to hear that a dating couple who is passionately in love go out 4 to 5 times a week? How often did you date you wife when you were dating? Well, that is how our marriage works. A good marriage continues to do the same things they did in courtship in order to maintain a romantic relationship. We WANT to go out that often! We are each others favorite source of happiness. We enjoy being together.

Our dates are not expensive. We mostly go out to eat, for drives, house shopping in new developments, shopping, etc. it doesn't take a lot of energy to go out and have fun. It doesn't take alot of planning either when you are in the habit of going out and you know what each other likes. Probably the greatest planning discussion comes from choosing the restaurant. We have a favorites list but the restaurant selection depends on each of our moods.



We did. We lived together for 3 years prior to me proposing and then another year and a half of engagement. I surely thought 4.5 years of living together (and loving every minute of it!) would be enough time to know her ways. Guess I was wrong. What could I have done differently there?
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I could tell by the way you described your independent lifestyle. Couples who live together before marriage tend to be very incompatible because they bring the bad habits learned living together into the marriage. Those couples have an 85% divorce rate. Most such marriages break up within 5 years after marriage. They are renters, rather than buyers. Dr Harley describes it here: LIVING TOGETHER BEFORE MARRIAGE: COMPATIBILITY TEST OR CURSE? Willard F. Harley, Jr., PhD

Here you go Acronyms and Abbreviations

Am I just not compatible for marriage then? My wife and I obviously enjoyed a better courtship relationship than marriage, but we never went out 4 or 5 times per week ever. Maybe 2 to 3? We'd obviously spend a lot of time together, but it wasn't always "going out". I legitimately do not want to go out 4 to 5 times per week. I enjoy staying in the house too. I like working on the house, playing with the dog, being productive with things at home, cooking my own meals, or even just relaxing and watching a movie or some TV (and I'm not a couch potato in the slightest) etc. I honestly don't even really enjoy going out to eat all that much. It's ok sometimes, but I often find it to be overpriced and lackluster. Going out to eat IS expensive, especially at that frequency. This is honestly one of my concerns going forward potentially into a different relationship - it seems that the courtship process in today's day and age is different than what I'm interested in. It's almost like I was meant to be born in an earlier era.... I love dedicating my time towards another special person such as my wife in the past, but I just really really really don't want to go OUT that much if going out means always spending money at establishments.



This is actually rather fascinating. I wouldn't have expected it to be such a difference. I kind of get where he's coming from, but after reading the entire article I think it does sort of beg the question - could I not have been in a cohabiting relationship prior to marriage AND been a buyer? Because I very much feel like that describes me. I was fully bought in and I absolutely did want to stick this out through thick and thin. We never had any sort of domestic violence as suggested in the article, nor did we even have bad angry fights or screaming matches. I can only remember one or two occasions even where we "went to bed angry". I never ever thought to myself, "well, now I'm married so she can't leave me and I can get away with more" like that Ed fellow in the article. No, my thought process was always, "I love her to death and I want to commit myself to her and this relationship so that even when things get tough, we will work through them." I guess that's why I'm here now even after I've been cheated on multiple times and she's in the other room packing her stuff to move out.

There's still just so many that aren't covered! I'm only halfway through the first page of that forum topic on serial cheaters, and already I've run across: EPs, CGIR, STB, AP. None of these are covered in the acronym list. Ugh! Still good reading, but I really wish people would just type in plain English for us lay folks.

Extraordinary Precautions
Soon To Be
Affair Partner

I could tell you are a renter by the way you described your hobbies. You have an entirely independent lifestyle with independent hobbies and you can't even imagine having an integrated marriage. That is how renters behave. That is a bad habit created by living together. I suspect your wife might have just put up with it for years and suffered in silence until she checked out. Not all such marriages experience violence, but that is almost exclusively where domestic violence occurs.

But you probably spent at least 15-20 hours per week together meeting each others intimate emotional needs. And maybe you successfully did some of that at home.

If you want to learn more about how critical undivided attention is to marriage, read this: THE POLICY OF UNDIVIDED ATTENTION

And the Basic Concepts.

Dr Harley has not covered adoption but actually this could be very relevant. When my brother and I were adopted the prevailing view was that if anything went wrong it was because the adoptee had a 'bad mother' and things often did go wrong. Then after the Romanian orphanages were opened up it was discovered that all these children were all damaged. That led to the understanding that we have now about adoption; that it creates an attachment disorder which you can look up if you are interested. My brother's adoption at 6 months of age was far more traumatic than mine at six weeks but I never felt whole until I met my birth family which happened when I was 25.


None of this means she had to become a serial cheater. However, not being able to trust anyone makes commitment hard. That is probably what they were referring to.

I mean, I didn't have an ENTIRELY independent lifestyle. I still made sure to try and cook dinner for my wife once per week (more than she did for me - and I'm not bitter about that in the slightest, I actually really enjoyed cooking dinner for the both of us. Just saying that even though I might not have done enough I was still doing more), take her out once a week, go on a walk with the dog and her together at least once per week, we'd go out and run errands together (grocery shopping etc), I'd spend 30 minutes every single night tucking her into bed and talking with her and cuddling her because she would go to bed earlier than me, we'd watch movies and TV together, etc.

It obviously could have and should have been better. It got really hard towards the end though because I have been the ONLY one putting forth any effort for the past year or so (the same time frame that I suspect she's been having her affair).

Let me ask you this then: What is an acceptable amount of time to spend away from your spouse in any given week to pursue hobbies that only you yourself are interested in? How many days? How many hours?

And, if she did "put up with it and suffered in silence for years" as you say, how much does that sort of excuse what she's done? Or does it at all? What should SHE have done differently? How much blame should I place on myself for the situation I now find myself in?

Suggestion, take the time to read up on the Marriage Builders materials so you will know the difference between a renters and a buyers marriage. I think it will be a real eye opener for you. A good place to start would be Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders and His Needs, Her Needs.

Here are some good articles that will give you the general idea, but if you are serious about this, I would get those books:

TOGETHER WHEN YOU ARE HAPPIEST

"WHAT ABOUT TIME ALONE?"

Thanks again for the links. The second one in particular addresses at least half of my questions. I will definitely be reading more materials from Dr Harley. Sadly, this marriage might be beyond salvage and that breaks my heart. I'd do anything I could to make it work. I'm committed to being a good partner for someone else though, should that opportunity arise.

I do still wonder how much blame I should place on myself about all of this. I thought I was a pretty good husband overall

Look, blame has no place in all this. Most of us made mistakes without ever realizing it. I know I sure did. What counts is what we do with that. You have an opportunity to learn..

You might be 50% to blame for the issues in your marriage, but understand this, for sure your WW is 100% to blame for all her affairs.

Just wanted to give people a super quick update, not that you really care, but perhaps just out of curiosity's sake and understanding the minds of cheaters.

So last night, exactly 2 weeks after I told her to pack up and get out after finding out about her second affair, she tells me, "I'm staying at my new place tonight, please take care of the dog". So I'm to believe that she found an apartment in under 2 weeks, passed the background check, was accepted, and started moving in? It's such BS. She's obviously still seeing this guy.

And then, tonight, she texts me again. "I'm staying at my new place tonight and then going on a church retreat this weekend and I'll be back on Tuesday. Right. For the record, she's never gone on a church retreat in the entire 13 years that we had been together. It's so completely obvious that she's lying to me. I tried calling her to ask her some specifics and call her out, but she wouldn't answer my call and refuses to answer questions via text. There's a 100% chance she's going on a mini weekend getaway with this guy.

The crazy part is - if she's already resigned herself to our marriage being over, why continue lying?

The very first response I received to all of this had the best advice: Let the marriage die and move on. As brutal as this is, I'll be a happier person without her. She's been making me a crazy person for the past year and now it all makes complete and total sense. I'm not the bad guy in this.

The longer this goes on, the more I'm leaning towards taking Marriage Builders advice of going full nuclear and exposing this to every single person either of them knows.

How did I marry someone capable of such evil? How do I avoid making this same mistake again?