It's hard to be in love with someone who has a boot on your neck.

Also, I will say that someone who believes in headship can still be a wonderful husband. My husband believes in headship. However, not only do I believe Dr. Harley's methods (hook, line and sinker!) but as you know I minister to other people with Dr. Harley's methods, links to his site, etc etc.

However, my husband's behaviors stem from a tender, converted (saved) heart and he instinctively behaves towards me with Dr. Harley's concepts, never having read a Dr. Harley book. Some of his favorite behavioral verses are to "Esteem other better than self" and "Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it". My husband says the Bible does not in any place call for the husband to demand, expect, enforce or coerce the wife's submission. It is for HER to give it if she chooses. He says he can't find a verse that makes her submission any of his business.

I have to admit, I also profess to be saved but I need the book. We have a joyous and beautiful marriagebuilders marriage; my part by extensive education on this site and his by instinct. We've been married for five years and feel like the honeymoon never stopped even though we have the marriage that statistically should have failed - having blended four teenagers between the two of us.



And being selfish, demanding, coercing, demeaning and abusive aren't worldly behaviors? There is nowhere in the Bible where he is given the right to treat you (or anyone) this way. It is the antithesis of the fruits of the Spirit.

See in Galatians 5:


Galatians 5:
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred[2189], variance[2054], emulations [2205], wrath [2372], strife[2052], seditions[2052], heresies [1370] +[139] (there are 2 words here in the Greek transcript, the second one being more towards religious heresies)

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

21a But I say unto you that you may manifest hatred, variance, wrath, strife and seditions towards the wife of your youth; the Lord delights in husbands' treacherous treatment of their wives; remember, God hates divorce so your wife is your captive to treat how you wish; Malachi 2 is hereby cancelled out and the Lord will still hear your prayers even if you treat the wife of your covenant treacherously..

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

23a But I say unto you, none of the fruits above are required towards your wife...

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory [2755], provoking one another, envying one another.

2189. echthra - Usage: enmity, hostility, alienation.
2054. eris - Usage: contention, strife, wrangling.
2205. zelos - [The root (zē-, "zeal") literally means "hot enough to boil." It is metaphorically used of "burning anger, love, zeal" (A-S) – i.e. to burn (in spirit). It can refer to "boiling anger, love, zeal, for what is good or bad" (J. Thayer).]
2372. thumos - an outburst of passion, wrath.
2052. eritheia - 2052 eritheía (from eritheuō, "work for hire") – properly, work done merely for hire (as a mercenary), referring therefore to carnal ambition (selfish rivalry). Ancient Greek uses 2052 /eritheía ("mercenary self-seeking") of acting for one's own gain, regardless of the discord (strife) it causes. 2052 /eritheía ("selfish ambition") places self-interest ahead of what the Lord declares right, or what is good for others.
1370. dichostasia Usage: division, dissension, standing apart.
2755 kenódoksos (from 2756 /kenós, "empty" and 1391 /dóksa, "glory") – properly, empty glory, i.e. self-deluded conceit driven by personal "delusions of grandeur"; "groundless conceit"


Malachi 2:
13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the Lord with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

16 For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

17 Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

PS: To call your attention to the above, this passage is widely misquoted as saying "God hates divorce", which is how some versions translate a phrase in v 16. The passage does not say that. It says God hates the violence and the treachery that causes the putting away.

Thank you so much. It’s like I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. According to him, my unwillingness to submit and respect him translates to also disobeying God and not being in a right relationship with Him. I have no room to even breathe. It’s no wonder we have so many problems. Sure I care about him, and love him... but not IN love with him right now. I want to be though but feel like it will take a miracle. Prayers appreciated! 💔

Kimber, I will be glad to hear what Dr Harley tells you. This whole program is based on the Bible. Dr Harley told me once that he got it in a prophecy from God. He has helped many men get a better understanding of headship and submission from a biblical perspective. I look forward to his response.

I have a phone call appointment on Monday @9:00 with Joyce

Kimber, I was thinking about this and I don't have much time to develop it now since I have to make breakfast for my church this morning, but Dr. Harley's work really does stand on its head the understanding of these texts. Once you delve into things in Dr. Harley's way you'll see insights into verses that never dawned on you before.

So here's an example:


The Bible doesn't give any verses to the husband that allows him to lord over you at all. All of the verses to the women are TO the women, not to the men. You can't take his verses either, because if you did you'd have to make sure he dropped dead!

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Any submission is to be as unto the Lord. Would the Lord have either of you submitting to the fruits of darkness (see my post above)? Submitting to hostility, enmity, contention, strife, wrangling, burning anger, outbursts of passion, wrath, the selfish ambition of another, the selfish interests of another is not submitting as unto the Lord. He would not have you submit to fruits of darkness.

Also, he has no standing to be your deputy Holy Spirit by micromanaging your behaviors so you can be in a 'right relationship with God'. Nowhere in the Bible is any human given charge over another human's soul.

These insights are woven throughout Dr. Harley's materials.

Ultimately, if your husband is unable or unwilling to offer you the fruits of the Spirit, or to love you, you may eventually have to enforce that he drop dead to you (a separation). Separations are powerful tools to save marriages.

However, that is getting ahead of ourselves in this situation; I pray he responds well to Dr. Harley's insights. I just wanted to give you this angle.

Also, I noticed you used the word "respect".


I hope he is not getting his ideas from Eggerich's book Love and Respect. That is one of the most damaging, ungodly and unBiblical marriage books on the market. Dr. Harley's prophetic understanding does not add to the Bible. It makes the pieces already there fall beautifully into place so they make sense. I don't need any extra Biblical information to see the wisdom and correct discernment in Dr. Harley's insight. Eggerich's claimed prophecy adds to the Bible. Where does the Bible say women do not need respect, or that men don't need love? That's just hogwash. I can provide links with resources expounding on how messed up that book is when you examine it with Scripture, if you need them.

Dr. Harley's concepts put all of those marriage verses in a clear alignment. I'm really looking forward to hearing your call on Monday.

Oh yes... he made me watch all the love and respect videos from Eggerich... it all made me angry to watch and made me throw up in my mouth a little. He loved that series... so you see where I’m coming from. 😢

So you probably got the "I didn't feel respected just now" response when you didn't want to jump to fulfill all of his selfish demands.

Just typing that out hits my gag reflex. I'm so sorry you had to live with that.

Not to mention Eggerich's view on sexuality, that sex is a way for a woman to minister to her husband. He deals with sex as some driving need the husband has that the wife can't understand and doesn't have.

Eggerich references male orgasms ("release") many times as part of what a husband needs to feel respected but never once mentions the female's pleasure or experience. The way he lays it out feels pretty yucky, almost as if the male's taking of sex is a way to demand respect from his wife.

Pg 250: She decided to minister to her husband sexually, not because she particularly wanted to, but because she wanted to do it as unto Jesus Christ.

More: Sex for him and affection for you is a two-way street. Just as he should minister to your spirit to have access to your body, so, too, you should minister to his body if you want to gain access to his spirit.

Page 258: If your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. When you shame him, punish him, or deprive him, he feels dishonored for who he is. If your husband feels you do not respect his struggle, his desire for you, and his maleness, he’ll pull back from you.

Sounds like this was taken right out of Song of Solomon, right? [[NOT!!]]

Oh girl.... you and me both trying to subdue the gag reflex here!

I watched the videos with him a few years ago and once done, I told him I thought he was a sexist pig. I spent the day yesterday reading He Wins, She Wins and it helped me a lot! I thought to myself, why don't I play the devils advocate for myself and be able to tell him later I've wrestled with both viewpoints and read the book. I downloaded Love and Respect from the library and began reading and couldn't do it. I think I could literally die from my anger making my blood pressure go through the roof. It's just not right.

Yes, everything is about respect with him.... it's like he's trying to be an example in the book. I'm just waiting for him to quote it in counseling. If he does, I'm gonna need a bucket

Also, if I remember right, doesn't he even tell the wife she is to show respect unconditionally? Even in the case of alcoholism or emotional abuse, stating that her respect will bring him around to love her the right way again?? MESSED UP!!!

“This is not about the husband deserving respect; it is about the wife being willing to treat her husband respectfully without conditions.” (p18)

“Obviously, wives can go on “winning the battles” by attacking, criticizing, or lecturing husbands who are drinking, straying, or whatever their problems may be, but they will eventually lose the war.” (p88)

Dr. Harley has been an advocate of respecting your instincts and feelings. As his teachings show, instincts are often right!



You could save your blood pressure by not reading this book and consulting this forum to help reorient your thinking:
cryingoutforjustice.blog

Type either Eggerich or "Love and Respect" in the search bar and it will bring to you detailed information about the theological horrors in that book. Below the posts you'll see comments from a lot of women who were damaged by that book, which will also help you develop a flavor for why that theology is so messed up.

BTW, if your husband is a KJVO advocate, he might be interested in knowing that Eggerich's claimed revelation depends on the ESV for Eph 5:33. The KJV does not have the word "respect" there. Some KJVO advocates believe deeply in the word perfect inspiration of that book. So that potentially knocks this book off any pedestal for your husband. The KJV uses "reverence". Seemingly subtle difference but actually it's huge.

How much more can you feel reverence for someone that one who you are deeply, head over heels in love with? Would you say that when you were the most in love with your husband that your love for him infiltrated almost everything thought and did? That sounds like reverence to me! He is responsible for offering behaviors that allow you to preserve your reverence for him.

Dr. Harley's materials will help you reverence your husband again by becoming deeply in love with him. BTW, husbands have a similar commendation in Peter.... Eggerich either never made it to 1 Peter or else he thinks God's revelation to him cancelled out 1 Peter 3:7...."Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife...."

Eggerich is far out of bounds to assume the "respect" given to the husband has 99% of the weight of the air in the marriage. The Lord needed Eggerich to clarify that 1 Peter 3:7 isn't worth a hill of beans?

Dr. Harley's methods will give your husband the knowledge he needs to dwell with you such that he can give honor to you. They will help him learn to be a person you can reverence again. The words are actually very similar.

That said, this information is more for your background knowledge. I would not recommend bringing this information out to your husband right now. It will just be a battle that distracts the focus from his marriage busting behaviors. I personally needed to understand for my own convictions why the path to marital rightness and righteousness led through POJA, etc etc so I studied this all out for a couple of years. I'm eager to hear what Dr. Harley advises for your next steps forward.


I'm so sorry. I know several marriages that were seriously harmed by this book. I'm sorry you had to suffer under it. I'm glad He Wins/She Wins is making more sense to you. Looking forward to hearing about your conversation with the Harleys!!!

Had a wonderful talk with Joyce. I chose to not be a caller on the show, but they will be talking about the situation probably today. I just felt at this time, it would be too overwhelming to my husband if I said “look, I talked about our problem on the radio today! Listen!” and it felt off to me to do that behind his back. He’s dealing with his fathers death, and a crazy time at work, and know be doesn’t have time this week to investigate a new approach or deal with much else. This js only temporary.... I’m not hiding it or anything, I’m just not discussing it with him yet. I will definitely listen myself and save the episode to show him at an appropriate time. Things are ok in our house at the moment. There is very little tension... I am OK

Joyce is supposed to email me when the episode discussing our situation is online. Also she’s sending me a free book which is nice!

I did find on our church website that the book “His Needs, Her Needs” was listed as a resource for a sermon series from a few years ago. Unfortunately in that very same resource list was “Love and Respect” by Eggerich 😆 Strange such opposijg views!

My assumed name on the show will be "Nancy".

I just got an email from Joyce. They discussed our issue on the show today in all three segments. Can't wait to hear it! - Nancy

Here is a transcript of the advice section of your segment:

J: “What if he doesn’t accept the whole package of equality?”

Dr. H: “I think the counselor they are now seeing should hear her objection, and Kimber should say that “What I want in this marriage is a marriage of equality. I want to be considered to be as important in the final decisions as my husband is, and if I can’t have that in this marriage, from my perspective I don’t feel married to him. I feel like I’m his servant, I’m his slave, I’m somebody that he uses in life. We’re not partners in this relationship.
“ If she makes that comment… and she can use a lot of the vocabulary that we use here at marriagebuilders, “mutual extraordinary care” means that I care enough about you to give you anything you want, but you care enough about me that if it’s not in my best interests and if I don’t want to do it, you don’t want it. And both of us look at each other, and if we don’t have a win-win outcome we keep negotiating. That’s what equality is all about.
“ Equality is about mutual extraordinary care. If both people care about each other, then they will not accept sacrifices from the other guy. So if he tells her she has to do this, she has to do that, she has to do the other thing, and she ways, “You know, I don’t want to do any of those things.”, and if he says “Well, you’re my wife you have to do what I tell you to do”, then what he’s doing is he’s expressing that he doesn’t have extraordinary care for her. So is she looks at him and says “If you treat me that way, if you make me do things for you that I really don’t want to do, and our whole lives revolve around things I don’t want to do (I have to go where you want me to go, I have to do what you want me to do, I have to drive the care you want me to drive, I have to live in the house you want me to live in) and I don’t have control of anything that goes on in our marriage. I’m terribly uncomfortable about that.” It’s because he doesn’t care about her in an extraordinary way that we talk a lot about at marriagebuilders.

J: “How do you get somebody to care about the individual in an extraordinary way?

Dr. H: “This may sound like a very extreme solution to the problem, but I’m working on an article now that I’ve been encouraged to write by some of our listeners, I Just Left My Spouse, Now What? and the idea is that I’m in favor of separation. I’m a believer of separation. I believe separation should be clearly thought through. It should be a dual track. One track is for reconciliation and one track is planning for the separation. In this article I’m explaining how you present your issues clearly and distinctly in writing so the spouse has all the facts in front of him so that when you separate they know exactly what the issue is and what to do about it.
“ And the second thing is, if you separate where do you go, how are you going to support yourself, and what kind of support can you get from other people. What about the kids, and what about….. So you see an attorney to let him know you are ‘thinking about separating from your spouse, I want to stay in the same house and I want to have money in your pocket, so how can you arrange that for me?’ And the attorney would set up a separation where the husband would have to go somewhere, he would have to provide his wife with enough support to carry on. This can all be done legally. So she says to him, she offers her hand and says” I’m willing to work this thing out with you but here are the conditions that I want to work under.”
“ Then he might say to her “You’re just turning the tables. Now you’re in control. I’m not in control anymore.” She says “No, I don’t want to do that. I want us both to be in control.” So he says “You’re in control right now because you’re demanding this, you’re demanding that.” She says, not this is what I need or I can no longer be in a relationship with you.

J: “And I can no longer live this way anymore.

Dr. H: “It’s a complicated issue and it’s very serious. Separation is a big deal. So a lot of women would say “It’s just not important enough to me to have to go through all that trouble.

J: “We talked about the fact that her youngest is 9 years old and maybe she would just live with this until… if he doesn’t change in another 10 years. This is why a lot of people divorce once the kids are gone. If one has just endured after all those years.

Dr. H: “To say nothing about the buildup of resentment during all of those years.”

J: That’s my point! They’ve endured and when their kids are gone, they’ve only stayed there for the kids, and then they’re out of there for sure. If only it could be conveyed that there would be hope right now if change could be made and they could have the rest of their lives together even when the kids go. Let me ask you about this. She said at this point in their counseling we’re to avoid talking at home about things we talked about in the session. The counselor encouraged them to do some individual soul searching, reading and thinking. What do you say about not talking about things at home that they talked about in the session. She doesn’t want arguments perhaps.

Dr. H: “Yea, she doesn’t want them to argue and so basically, let’s not get into a fight about whatever was talked about in the session. Kimber has already admitted that she has a problem with angry outbursts and the counselor doesn’t want to see her lose her temper with her husband between times.
“ The question really is what are they being asked to do besides meditating, soul searching. What exactly are they supposed to read that is going to be helpful? What we usually do is say “Identify your problems,… What Kimber might do is download our Emotional Needs Questionnaire and our Lovebusters Questionnaire and bring that to the counselor. Say, “here, I’ve filled out these questionnaires for you to use so you can help me get what I need out of this marriage.”

Thank you so much for doing this!!

You are so welcome!!

I noticed Dr. Harley's comments on your counselor's homework assignments.

Dr. Harley is usually quite a bit more demanding than that for homework. He'll assign specific sections of specific books to be read, but he'll also require that you spend undivided attention (UA) time each week until your next appointment (assuming that the couple is in a condition where they can compartmentalize enough to enjoy their time together).

Here's a great series of articles with some amalgams of typical cases:
https://www.marriagebuilders.com/dating-the-one-you-married-series-of-articles.htm

It's a lot of reading as it walks through the counseling cycle of 4 or 5 couples and their process to recover, but it has some really great insights on how the methods restore love and teach productive conflict resolution using mutual care.

How are things going, Kimber?

Hello! Yikes I haven't been here in awhile. Things are OK... they could be better but there's been some improvement. I laid it out in counseling that I would like to try resolving conflicts mutually instead of being submissive to his way and his demands all the time. At first, he argued that the alcohol issue is literally the only thing he makes demands about (which I disagree)... so currently we are looking at other areas in which he does this and trying to find new ways of solving these other issues. He is open to the policy of joint agreement in these other areas... just not this alcohol one, so that issue has kind of taken a back burner for now. Honestly, that is OK with me for now... my main goal here is trying to improve my marriage, and not just resolve this one issue. For now I am keeping the alcohol rules, even though at times it seems ridiculous.

(For example, we had friends over a few weeks ago and they brought wine... which is OK with him if they "provide" it, but I was not allowed to be the provider of the wine for the occasion. They brought two bottles, only one was opened and the other was left here as a gift. It had to stay in the pantry until such an occasion as I could enjoy it with someone else. Well my Mom came to visit last week and stayed for a week. My husband was away, but since we had this bottle here... and these rules can get confusing at times, I decided it was best for me to check with him to see if we could open it since technically I would be "providing" it for my mom. His response was that I needed to then give it to my mom as a gift and then if she chose to open it, only then could we drink it together. I'm not sure what the difference is between this and providing but whatever.)

Obviously this issue is not solved and it creates awkward moments for me, but I'm just hoping that he will eventually let up and allow me freedom on this. If not, and if this is the ONLY issue that he refuses to mutually resolve, I can live with that. Alcohol isn't THAT important to me. The main thing is that we start to resolve most conflicts differently than we have been.

Kimber, the key is to learn to negotiate these issues to find solutions that suit you both. Sometimes that means there is no solution and the default position is to do nothing.

I can't remember which book the Harley's sent you. Was it He Wins, She wins? And how did you husband react to your email being read on the MB Radio show?


I am unclear on what you mean when you say he is not open to the POJA when it concerns drinking. It sounds like he is using the POJA. You do understand that he has the right, as you do, to object to behavior that makes him unhappy? I know my husband would never like me drinking and I am fine with that. Equally, there are no circumstances under which I would be agreeable if he decided to start smoking. If I drank it would make my husband unhappy and if he smoked, it would make me unhappy. But we don't want to make each other unhappy, that is the whole point of the POJA.

NOW, if I decided that I was going to drink whether he liked it or not, that would be very controlling of me.

I guess what I mean is, concerning drinking, I would like freedom. That would make me happy to not always have to follow certain very specific guidelines which can be confusing at times. I don’t want to have to ask permission every time I would like to purchase wine whether for cooking or drinking. He is unwilling to let me have that freedom, so for now and moving forward (and maybe forever) I will continue to always ask permission. If I don’t, he takes this as a betrayal as serious as an affair. So I guess until or if we ever reach another solution, this is my doing nothing.

I have a similar feeling about his video game habit. Just like drinking bothers him, and he worries that it could get out of control, I have the same feeling about his gaming. It has caused problems at times and he has gotten out of control by staying up all night, not waking up for work, forgotten to put the kids to bed, etc... When it concerns my children, I will say something but I don’t feel like it’s my right to tell him not to play video games. I don’t like it, but I know he likes it.

Not sure if I’m making sense. I really just want freedom to make my choice regarding drinking. I don’t even think it’s the alcohol honestly, it’s the fact that he feels he can control me.